some questions to vadim

Post by **BlackQ** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:48 pm

we are long term players

Post by **nubie** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:39 pm

Hi, I just sent off an email about Planar support and now I see that 1.09 will have it.

Will similar modes be grouped in the driver? IE all Dual output modes, or shutter modes, or checkerboard and interleaved, so that if I have a polarized Dual DLP/ a dual video HMD, and a Planar setup I don't have to pay for each device separately as the functionality is nearly the same.

Or will there be a inexpensive add-on of say $25-50 for each additional mode you want? (although charging more for straight vs mirrored Dual output sounds rather cruel).

Thanks and keep up the good work!

Post by **The_Doctor** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:34 pm

BlackQ wrote:we are long term players

Any plans for a 24" monitor?

Post by **BlackQ** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:37 pm

do you think it is better than 26"?

Really we need to understand what would the best next step: 24", 26" or 30" - not clear vision atm. Different signals from the market...

Post by **The_Doctor** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:03 am

It depends on the costs. Of course 26" is better but if it costs $1000 more than a 24 " probably not a good idea. I would be happy with a 24".

Post by **BlackQ** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:13 pm

and costs depend on volume

Post by **sharky** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:25 am

on tv's the smaller ones cost in PROPORTION more.. bigger ones are cheaper... if you use teh same proportional system then i would go for the bigger one, else i would go for teh 26 one.. (24 is too similar to the 22 one)

Post by **BlackQ** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:47 pm

not so simple - every new model run has start up cost - they have to be cover by initial sales...

Post by **BlackQ** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:48 pm

all outputs is grouped in one driver - you may make your choice during installation or add different output later and activate it if it is not free.

Post by **chrisdfw** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:15 am

BlackQ wrote:sync - we need to run shutter glasses through one output - there is not clear sync mechanism between frame - GPU generates frames one by one and put them into screen buffer and knows nothing was it taken from there or not - glasses closes eyes for corresponding frame from GPU and have no idea is it left or right or mixed. There are two way to solve this problem I assume:

1. Additional connector between GPU and shutter glasses for sync

2. Additional connector between visual device (monitor, TV etc) and glasses

Both ways are external for us and there are elements we can not control

Shutter glasses are one of the most widely used methods for 3d by gamers since they can be used inexpensively with CRT monitors or with certain DLP projectors for large screen gaming.

If the Nvidia drivers and Edimensional programs send a signal through the VGA cable I would hope you could do it the same way. Would Edimensional provide you the code needed to switch the shutters? It would be to their benefit to help you since Nvidia dropped the ball on shutter support now.

Post by **Andrew** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:30 pm

Hi Everyone
I am a silent reader, but this thread has really peeked my interest so , here goes first post.

I currently play around with shutter glasses with a 24 inch crt. they are quite fun, but just not quite there in my opinion. I have been researching my different options, and it seems that a Planar setup is the best route to go with a computer. I currently have plans to build a planar setup with two 24" lcd. Any opinions on planar setups? It seems from the specs that it would be leagues ahead of anything else.

thanks
Afrieze

Post by **The_Doctor** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:31 pm

Check the "do it yourself forum". It looks like the drivers will work for planar setups

Andrew wrote:Hi Everyone
I am a silent reader, but this thread has really peeked my interest so , here goes first post.

I currently play around with shutter glasses with a 24 inch crt. they are quite fun, but just not quite there in my opinion. I have been researching my different options, and it seems that a Planar setup is the best route to go with a computer. I currently have plans to build a planar setup with two 24" lcd. Any opinions on planar setups? It seems from the specs that it would be leagues ahead of anything else.

thanks
Afrieze

Post by **LukePC1** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:38 am

I got a question... why is the Zalman so expencive? Is it not 'relativly' cheap to make a normal monitor and attach it with a polarized surface?

What if you made a -even cheaper- Monitor as direct competitor to the Zalman? If you chose cheackerboard-style, there won't be the anoying 'lines' as in a linear polarized rig. The 2D resolution would be like every normal screen, and the price should be equal...

In combination with your driver, that'd make a nice paket

Post by **CarlKenner** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:33 am

The monitor has to be twice as bright as normal if you are putting a filter over it.

Post by **wuhlei** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:04 am

hmmm can you give us an idea of when the beta will be out? hehe

Post by **LukePC1** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:58 am

CarlKenner wrote:The monitor has to be twice as bright as normal if you are putting a filter over it.

Will it? I think there are polarizers on each LCD already, so you'd just need to turn some of them the other way... I'm not shure, how exactly the LCD works, and if this is possible for a reasonable price.

Afaik there are also 'shifters' available, which could shift/turn the polarization, without loosing too much light.

But it seems to be cheaper for a small market, just to take 2 LCD's

Post by **Likay** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:11 am

The thought of having a checkerboard pattern for the polarizing layer has struck me many times. Regarding the light i think CarlKenner is right. The light from all lcd's is polarized but usually the light goes to both of the eyes at the same time. If you polarize half the pixels one way, the other ones the other way and use polarized glasses the eyes will practically only see half the light amount. This should be the same for the Zalman as well. Not really sure about the IZ3D monitor but regarding that monitor you have light enough for two of them.

. I'm using a intensity setting of 40% as it is now.

cheers

Post by **nubie** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:57 am

No, there is practically no light lost, get a set of polarizing filters and rotate them, clear to start, then gets dimmer to black.

You do see half of the brightness, because you are seeing half of the pixels, but I don't think it is an issue.

In any case, I think Carl was referring to an auxiliary polarizing layer on top of the one in the LCD monitor already. And of course that should be stripped off first.

I know regular polarizing filters aren't that cheap, and this special one is likely to be more expensive, the quality is important too. (I might be wrong, but I think there is a company already making a kit to do a "diy zalman" style, possibly vertically striped instead of horizontal?)

Post by **chrisjarram** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:05 pm

We really, really read to see LCS glasses such an eDimensional supported with these drivers. Its crazy not to, and I for one would be more than happy to pay up to the $200 for a license if you did. I would never buy an iz3d or Zalman, as it does not suit my needs for large-screen projection.

I think Vadim you'd find it'd be WELL worth your effort to do this, especially while NVidia are currently taking the Zalman-exclusive approach. Get in there and pip them to the post, because 3D is starting to get big and whoever releases a driver which works with 8/9 series and these solutions first has the potential to make big bucks.

All you'd have to do is use the existing eDimensional dongle / architecture (like the NVIDIA drivers do) and you shouldnt have any problems with the sync'ing. I'd love to help out as a software engineer, in order to get this moving quicker (as I have a $5k 3D rig sat here waiting for it!!

but I'm betting you're not willing to disclose your source to just anyone

Post by **Frettchen** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:25 am

Hi, Vadim!

Great to hear that you are planning support for shutters also!!!
Your work therefor is really appreciated here and should be honoured well in my opinion. So I have no Problem if the driver costs $200 or whatever you mean.
I mostly use a projector rig and up to 20 pair of edimensional glasses with self-built IR-senders and a reverse-switch - all connected over an edimensional-dongle.
So my first question: Will edimensional glasses be supported? (That would mean using only one output and the edim.-dongle for page-flipping at least... - maybe Edimensional would be interested in that also and sell their goggles together with your driver!?)
2. Will version 2.0 of your driver include such a shutter-support?
3. When do you plan to release version 2 or a version that support shutters? - I can't wait to get it!!!!

Thanks for your patience and answers!

Best
Manfred

Post by **pedrolbna** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:44 pm

BlackQ wrote:Hi, sharky!

(...)

Next after HMD steps is not planned yet, but we need to understand what is the right step after L/R. There are few candidates: flipping (time sequential), interlace (line-by-line), wide (side-by-side). Flipping looks attractive, but sync is an issue - remember old glasses - it has to be wire or IR, but standard has to be defined ... if you bought projector for flipping we need to understand how to sync... But I'm sure nothing is impossible

2) on the iz3d forum ther eis written that you areworking on new glasses for the monitor. will there be a promotion to users which

That's nice news, but still not good enough for me.
I'll be your first client when you include support for page flipping mode, for my z800 (no, not the most recent with dual input).
What do mean by "but sync is an issue"?
Do you have to worry about the sync? Shouldn't it just be left for the user (matching the vertical refresh according to their hardware's capabilities) and to the hardware itself?
Thanks.

Regards.

Post by **pedrolbna** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:14 pm

Please ignore my post above. I had not read all posts.

Anyway, it's clear that the biggest market is the page flipping mode

Regards.

Post by **nubie** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:52 pm

bump, curious on state of mirrored output in the driver (even an alpha with just a mirrored output on the "other output")

I got your driver "functioning" in WinXP on nVidia 8800GTS and 171.23 Forceware, it is amazing that it works so well already, I can't say much on anything other than it appeared to function, I can't really see the 3D because the setup is mirrored.

It is a shame that 1.08 was stabilized before a mirrored mode could be added, but I look forward to release 1.09 (up/down, or left/right, although I am only needing left-right)

Post by **wuhlei** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:59 pm

will the vr920 be supported in the next version?

Post by **venge** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:09 am

hello everyone,

first thanks to blackQ for answering all the questions! communication with the company is a fantastic and i think useful thing; well, i've tried to follow the entire discussion, and it seemed to be written somewhere that new iZ3D driver (version 1.08 beta??) should have support for shutterglasses, like my Edim ones... is this true?? is it planned?? or it's already supported but i can't make it work??

thanks you all!

Post by **chrisjarram** » Thu May 08, 2008 8:34 am

venge wrote:hello everyone,

first thanks to blackQ for answering all the questions! communication with the company is a fantastic and i think useful thing; well, i've tried to follow the entire discussion, and it seemed to be written somewhere that new iZ3D driver (version 1.08 beta??) should have support for shutterglasses, like my Edim ones... is this true?? is it planned?? or it's already supported but i can't make it work??

thanks you all!

Think maybe you better try and read it again!

Post by **chrisjarram** » Thu May 08, 2008 8:37 am

venge wrote:hello everyone,

first thanks to blackQ for answering all the questions! communication with the company is a fantastic and i think useful thing; well, i've tried to follow the entire discussion, and it seemed to be written somewhere that new iZ3D driver (version 1.08 beta??) should have support for shutterglasses, like my Edim ones... is this true?? is it planned?? or it's already supported but i can't make it work??

thanks you all!

p.s. BlackQ's last post was over a month ago - I don't think he even reads this forum anymore. There are a lot of outstanding questions and no updates - people have offered to help with devlopment aspects but all this seems to fall on deaf ears. I wouldn't hold your breath for shutterglasses support, even though its the most critical thing these drivers are missing at the moment.

Post by **Welder** » Thu May 08, 2008 12:07 pm

We are always reading these forums. They are not ignored.

Things have just been pretty busy for all of us lately, and your input is always helpful and appreciated.

I'm sure he will return soon.

Post by **chrisjarram** » Thu May 08, 2008 12:17 pm

Welder wrote:We are always reading these forums. They are not ignored.

Things have just been pretty busy for all of us lately, and your input is always helpful and appreciated.

I'm sure he will return soon.

Good to hear

Would be nice to get some more information soon in case there is anything we can do as a community to help push this forward. I appreciate you have many priorities at this time however.

Post by **BlackQ** » Thu May 08, 2008 2:54 pm

First of all I want to say sorry to everybody - I did not forget about this thread, but surprisingly system did not send me notification about your system...

But now I'm here again and would be happy to answer any question you have...

We are going to release second beta for 1.08 soon and working hard to make it more stable and faster, including auto-convergence feature

I got your Planar requests - as I said it is possible - I assume we can release separate dll for this

Shutter can be done without sync - if you think it is reasonable idea....

Post by **BlackQ** » Thu May 08, 2008 3:05 pm

one more thing - anybody knows why end of World War II is May 8th in some countries and MA 9th in others? When is end of World War II day in your country?

Post by **yuriythebest** » Thu May 08, 2008 3:17 pm

Ukraine- 9th of may

Post by **Tril** » Thu May 08, 2008 4:09 pm

BlackQ, are you able to display to the monitor faster than you render with DirectX?
i.e. game renders at 25 fps and monitor is set to 120 Hz.

I was under the impression that this was not possible because the way DirectX is made makes this impossible. You have to be out of a BeginScene/EndScene pair to call Present.

Post by **stee1hed** » Thu May 08, 2008 7:51 pm

BlackQ wrote:one more thing - anybody knows why end of World War II is May 8th in some countries and MA 9th in others? When is end of World War II day in your country?

Found this info in wikipedia

At 02:41 on May 7, 1945, at the SHAEF headquarters in Reims, France, the Chief-of-Staff of the German Armed Forces High Command, Colonel General Alfred Jodl, signed the German Instrument of Surrender. All active operations were to cease at 23:01 Central European Time on May 8, 1945. However as the British were operating on British Double Summer Time this was 00:01 May 9 in London.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_in_Europe_Day

One of those funky time change things that governments do. I would assume that different countries did their own thing and that's why the dates are different.

Post by **chrisjarram** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:28 am

BlackQ wrote:First of all I want to say sorry to everybody - I did not forget about this thread, but surprisingly system did not send me notification about your system... But now I'm here again and would be happy to answer any question you have...

We are going to release second beta for 1.08 soon and working hard to make it more stable and faster, including auto-convergence feature

I got your Planar requests - as I said it is possible - I assume we can release separate dll for this

Shutter can be done without sync - if you think it is reasonable idea....

Hey BlackQ,

Thanks for posting again

This shutter idea sounds like its possibly worth a go if it wouldnt take too much of your time? You'd have an unpaid and eager group of beta testers here including myself who I'm sure would be delighted to be able to test this thouroughly with a number of different LCS glasses and report their findings in detail. It may be that this works straight away but if there are problems you'd at least get a set of bug reports.

Again I think if you were to get in there first while NVidia's support for shutters is dormant it could be of great advantage - there are a lot of people starting to shout about the need for this now and you'd certainly gain a lot of support from us!

Do you think maybe this is something you could enable in the next driver release, even if its considered an alpha implementation, so we can test this for you? Or is it still too much work at this stage.

Thanks again!
Chris J

Post by **BlackQ** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:45 am

Hi, Tril!

We can render it much faster sometime, but there few limitations here:

1. Dual Link DVI bandwidth - 7.9GBs - count your resolution limit with 120Hz and 32 bit...

2. LCD "refresh rate" - 60Hz - I heard about new fast LC with up to 120Hz speed, but did not see product yet

So, our driver itself can do 120 fps (of course you need to have powerful card)

Post by **BlackQ** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:53 am

Hi, chrisjarram!

Let us think about more about this idea - I need to have some internal discussion how and when to do it.

Post by **chrisjarram** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:54 am

BlackQ wrote:Hi, chrisjarram!

Let us think about more about this idea - I need to have some internal discussion how and when to do it.

No problem, look forward to hearing from you.

Post by **BlackQ** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:59 am

Hi, stee1hed!

Thanks for good link - it is always interesting to know more about different countries and their history. It is not so simple sometimes, especially if we are talking about "hot" topics where few big groups are keeping very different opinions

Post by **MrHugoHugo** » Fri May 09, 2008 8:10 am

Hi BlackQ,

I just want to thank you for the way you took the planar mirror request into your hands...
(I did this in private email allready but I think its always a good idea to publicly recognize such positive behavior... not many companies do this anymore

!)

Cheers Antonius