iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

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iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by PressBot »

Something new is cooking in the iZ3D camp!

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I'm afraid we know less than more, but the promotional page promises compatibility with both Nvidia and AMD graphics cards, and is based on LCD shutter glasses technology.  Our understanding is that Chi-Mei (CMO) makes Viewsonic panels, which explains why the drivers are under the CMO name.  This is also a potential indicator for how wide the iZ3D license agreements can potentially spread (i.e. who buys CMO panels?)!
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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by ssiu »

Nice find! My thought is that Viewsonic is coming out with this new 120Hz 3D monitor using iZ3D driver (the online manual confirms it is 120Hz shutter-glasses based) with bundled glasses very soon, so iZ3D is posting the driver/manual up in preparation for it.

(Its main advantage over other 120Hz 3D monitors is that it works with both ATI and NVIDIA video cards.)

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by DmitryKo »

PressBot wrote:Since this is both Nvidia and AMD compatible, our bet is on DLP-Link technology between the monitor and the glasses because it's something that does not require deep GPU synchronization or a proprietary USB connector.
Why use DLP-Link in a LCD display? The reasoning is beyond me.
but HDMI 1.4A does not include LCD shutter glasses synchronization technology, and this is the only option we know of that is beyond the direct control of the graphics card manufacturers.
It's a computer monitor, not a 3DTV, so it doesn't have to use consumer electronics protocols such as HDMI 3D.

I'd guess this display has a built-in wireless emitter, most likely through DisplayPort 1.1a which does support frame sequential S3D at 1920x1080 @60 Hz per each eye (so no, HDMI 1.4 is not the only option).
If it does support Nvidia 3D Vision mode as well (which works through USB emitter), it should work through Dual-link DVI.

See also:
3D films and games with glasses from ATI before Christmas
ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)
MSI follows fate's whispers, intros 24-inch Wind Top S-3D (Wind Top AE2420)
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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by Neil »

You have some valid points I hadn't considered.

If the GPU is passing on a left/right view to the display in a standard format (e.g. side by side), then all the synchronization could be between the display and the glasses which the software has no control over.

I don't know why I thought that DLP-Link worked beyond DLP projectors and DLP checkerboard televisions. Has it ever been announced for anything beyond that? When I'm thinking of DLP-Link, I'm not thinking of the checkerboard pattern, I'm think of the visual synchronization method.

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by cybereality »

Interesting. Should be good for the market if this is what I think it is.

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by Neil »

What do you think it is? :D

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by cybereality »

An alternative to the Nvidia 3D Vision.

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by Dom »

Maybe they are using bit cauldron glasses and will have a usb wireless adapter to transmit to the glasses. Thats what they were talking about before have universal plugs for any 3d connection. Other than that it seems like izd3d will have to use interlaced on that monitor because currently they don't have core kernal usage of the nvidia and ati glasses wavelengh and such what you guys said. So unless they bypass the sync signal with dlp, link or usb transmitter or even wired usb glasses then all seems right.

I wonder if you can use their driver with the nvidia glasses too along with e-dims, sure will be a huge reconfiguration.

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by tritosine5G »

Just saw dx10 SLI / CF is coming at the end of the month.

3d vision needs an alternative desperately, they are very very lazy.
This comment speaks for itself:
Still not supporting the HD66, why they list "Adds support for Optoma GT720 , Optoma HD67, and Optoma HD66 projectors
" is beyond me. There should be some legal disclosure about this,it's so frustrating. Even the guy on phone says that it supports new firmwares from 8/2010 for the HD66, which after sending mine off and just getting it back with latest firmware we know is not true.......

Oh well, luckly people on here are smarter then the "techs" at Nvidia and the Acer.Inf hack still works great even with new 1.34
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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by DmitryKo »

Neil wrote:If the GPU is passing on a left/right view to the display in a standard format (e.g. side by side), then all the synchronization could be between the display and the glasses which the software has no control over.
Yes, this is another video transmission mode possible with Dual-link DVI, besides using DisplayPort 1.1a for stereo 3D.
I don't know why I thought that DLP-Link worked beyond DLP projectors and DLP checkerboard televisions. Has it ever been announced for anything beyond that?
No, they haven't.

AFAIK no 120 Hz LCD panel is fast enough to insert a bright frame in between left-right frames as DLP-Link does, it will basically take a 240 Hz panel to do that. As of now, only DMD mirrors (and plasma pixels) are fast enough to do it - however it is impractical to implement for plasma panels since it will significanly rise power consumption.

Dom wrote:Maybe they are using bit cauldron glasses and will have a usb wireless adapter to transmit to the glasses.
No, these are certainly not Bit Cauldron glasses, most likely CMO as well.

If you further read ATI interviews linked in my post above, they say that syncing directly with the display is the best option (which I tend to agree), so it's probably either built-in emitter or standard VESA Stereo port with a compatible emitter.
it seems like izd3d will have to use interlaced on that monitor because currently they don't have core kernal usage of the nvidia and ati glasses wavelengh and such what you guys said.
I'm sorry, I don't quite understand that part. This is a 120 Hz frame alternative monitor with active shutter glasses, not line-interleaved monitor with passive polarized glasses.

BTW, what is "wavelength of glasses" and how is it connected with interlaced signal, exactly?

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by Fredz »

When I clicked on the link at the bottom of the article, I didn't see the same image as the one that was presented. The glasses are quite different and they look like 3D Vision glasses now :

Image

I wonder why nobody did yet try to produce 120 Hz monitors with polarization modulators on top of the display (like the one from DepthQ) to use with polarized glasses. Even if DepthQ sells theirs at a quite high price, I'm not sure this technology would be that costly with mass production.

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by tritosine5G »

-that depthQ uses 50/50 duty cycle, whereas 120hz LCD -s are 25% transparent 75% block ( ~ 240hz :lol: )

TN LCD-s just arent fast enough. You can see on 3d vision forums its regular routine to switch back to 100hz to prevent progressive scanning artifacts and ghosting.
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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by Fredz »

I didn't think about the polarization of the LCD screen itself, but if you used a plasma screen behind the polarization modulator wouldn't it be feasible ? I guess plasma screens don't produce polarized light by themselves.

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by Dom »

DmitryKo wrote:
Neil wrote:If the GPU is passing on a left/right view to the display in a standard format (e.g. side by side), then all the synchronization could be between the display and the glasses which the software has no control over.
Yes, this is another video transmission mode possible with Dual-link DVI, besides using DisplayPort 1.1a for stereo 3D.
I don't know why I thought that DLP-Link worked beyond DLP projectors and DLP checkerboard televisions. Has it ever been announced for anything beyond that?
No, they haven't.

AFAIK no 120 Hz LCD panel is fast enough to insert a bright frame in between left-right frames as DLP-Link does, it will basically take a 240 Hz panel to do that. As of now, only DMD mirrors (and plasma pixels) are fast enough to do it - however it is impractical to implement for plasma panels since it will significanly rise power consumption.

Dom wrote:Maybe they are using bit cauldron glasses and will have a usb wireless adapter to transmit to the glasses.
No, these are certainly not Bit Cauldron glasses, most likely CMO as well.

If you further read ATI interviews linked in my post above, they say that syncing directly with the display is the best option (which I tend to agree), so it's probably either built-in emitter or standard VESA Stereo port with a compatible emitter.
it seems like izd3d will have to use interlaced on that monitor because currently they don't have core kernal usage of the nvidia and ati glasses wavelengh and such what you guys said.
I'm sorry, I don't quite understand that part. This is a 120 Hz frame alternative monitor with active shutter glasses, not line-interleaved monitor with passive polarized glasses.

BTW, what is "wavelength of glasses" and how is it connected with interlaced signal, exactly?
I say they might have to use interlaced mode because as of now their frame sequential mode don't work and loses sync because Nvidia and ATI would not give them their driver kernal to fix it. So going less than 60fps in game at 120hz lost the sync indefenitly.

What I mean abot the wavelengh of the glasses is that the pulses lost the sequence from the iz3d drivers and nvidia, ati graphics card on a vga connection with dongle.

To futher more it sure will be nice if iz3d can make e-dims work on a 120hz panel with dual-dvi-d or sell some usb wired glasses to work with it too.

I am not trying to disclaim iz3d for their efforts i'm just wondering if they are going the "open standard" path or the "proprietary" way.
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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by DmitryKo »

Dom wrote:I say they might have to use interlaced mode because as of now their frame sequential mode don't work
Dom, you can't "use interlaced mode" on a progressive frame-sequential display like this one, because, well, it just does not support interlaced video at all. BTW no modern LCD computer monitor ever does since at least 2000s, and certainly no stereoscopic computer monitor supports interlaced 1920x1080 @120 Hz (that is 120 fields or 60 interlaced frames per second).

So it's either 120 Hz frame sequential stereo mode, or no stereo at all (well, besides color anaglyph which should work on every monitor).
What I mean abot the wavelengh of the glasses is that the pulses lost the sequence from the iz3d drivers and nvidia
What you call "wavelength" is basically called "frequency"; sync pulses cannot have "wavelength" because they are not periodic sine waves, but rather square waves which are typically characterized by frequency and duty cycle, or pulse width (in split seconds).

iZ3D sync issues are not really about high frequency, so lowering it to 60 Hz will not help.
it sure will be nice if iz3d can make e-dims work on a 120hz panel with dual-dvi-d
I don't think iZ3D can make eDimensional glasses work with DVI-D displays because eDimensional are using analog VGA dongle, and most video cards do not support 120 Hz on the analog VGA input.
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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by Fredz »

DmitryKo wrote:I don't think iZ3D can make eDimensional glasses work with DVI-D displays because eDimensional are using analog VGA dongle, and most video cards do not support 120 Hz on the analog VGA input.
Maybe not iZ3D, but other manufacturers should be able to sell small devices plugged in a USB or DVI port which could be connected to the eDimensional glasses. The team behind SoftGenLock did such an adapter to plug 3 pin DIN stereo glasses on the parallel port.

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by tritosine5G »

LOL. That crytek stuff is a bit hard on the nerves. You guys should pick up those sony shutters and mod those (maybe its missing the outer layer polarizer???) those must be one of the best. Hence IR .
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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by skrubol »

DmitryKo wrote:
AFAIK no 120 Hz LCD panel is fast enough to insert a bright frame in between left-right frames as DLP-Link does, it will basically take a 240 Hz panel to do that. As of now, only DMD mirrors (and plasma pixels) are fast enough to do it - however it is impractical to implement for plasma panels since it will significantly rise power consumption.
LCD's are nowhere near fast enough to switch the DLP link sync signal from what I've read of it (I don't know how fast it is, but I'd guess sveral kHz.) What is fast enough are the LED's used for the backlight. It would not be too difficult to strobe the backlight LED's (the driver circuitry would have to be overhauled) at several kHz to send a signal to DLP link glasses.

I've had a lot of trouble finding much info on DLP link. It may just mean that whatever signaling 120Hz DLP projectors receive on the input cable to tell it whether the frame is left or right for DLP link, is the same signaling this display uses. AFAIK DLP's are the only displays to be able to sync shutters, standalone (no external transmitter,) with signals other than 1080p24 and 720p50/60.

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by Dom »

DmitryKo wrote:
Dom wrote:I say they might have to use interlaced mode because as of now their frame sequential mode don't work
Dom, you can't "use interlaced mode" on a progressive frame-sequential display like this one, because, well, it just does not support interlaced video at all. BTW no modern LCD computer monitor ever does since at least 2000s, and certainly no stereoscopic computer monitor supports interlaced 1920x1080 @120 Hz (that is 120 fields or 60 interlaced frames per second).

So it's either 120 Hz frame sequential stereo mode, or no stereo at all (well, besides color anaglyph which should work on every monitor).
What I mean abot the wavelengh of the glasses is that the pulses lost the sequence from the iz3d drivers and nvidia
What you call "wavelength" is basically called "frequency"; sync pulses cannot have "wavelength" because they are not periodic sine waves, but rather square waves which are typically characterized by frequency and duty cycle, or pulse width (in split seconds).

iZ3D sync issues are not really about high frequency, so lowering it to 60 Hz will not help.
it sure will be nice if iz3d can make e-dims work on a 120hz panel with dual-dvi-d
I don't think iZ3D can make eDimensional glasses work with DVI-D displays because eDimensional are using analog VGA dongle, and most video cards do not support 120 Hz on the analog VGA input.

I know commonly most of the stuff I am talking about does not work with current configurations, but looking at the system configuration I have now I assume that. E-dim software actually reproduces the interlaced and so does the iz3d driver. Does it really matter if the display is meant for full 3d? If the driver can replicate the mode in an overlay I don't really see how the monitor will stop that.

The easiest route to enable a vga dongle into a dvi-d connected monitor would be to use a "loopback driver" with a output connection dvi-port GUI just like how ASIO sound system software is used only for video.

I know I don't have the exact wording right considering "wavelengh" for "frequency". My mistake I guess "IR" and "radio" are different of course and signals are pulses and smooth continous light or radio wave/pulses.
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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by DmitryKo »

Dom, could you please stop overquoting?
Dom wrote: most of the stuff I am talking about does not work with current configurations, but looking at the system configuration I have now I assume that. E-dim software actually reproduces the interlaced and so does the iz3d driver.
I don't understand what are you talking about. The video driver and the rendering API don't render "interlaced", they work with the concept of frame buffer(s) and "begin scene"/"end scene"; refresh rate and interlacing/progressive only matter after the scene has been completely rendered and frame buffer has been copied to the back buffer for display through RAMDAC or TDMS.

And even then, all 100 Hz capable CRT displays were certainly progressive only; interlaced was only used in very few XGA/8514 modes like 800x600 @87 Hz, 1024x768 @87 Hz, and 1280x1024 @87 Hz; it wasn't ever used in VGA/EGA, Mac, or SXGA+ and higher modes.

AFAIK the activator software just adds "blue line code" signals to the last line in the back buffer.
Does it really matter if the display is meant for full 3d? If the driver can replicate the mode in an overlay I don't really see how the monitor will stop that.
Yes it does. If the monitor can not display interlaced signal, it just won't display it and will tell you "unsupported video mode" instead.
The easiest route to enable a vga dongle into a dvi-d connected monitor would be to use a "loopback driver" with a output connection dvi-port
Did I say that video cards don't support 120 Hz through analog VGA? I know I did.

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by DmitryKo »

skrubol wrote: What is fast enough are the LED's used for the backlight. It would not be too difficult to strobe the backlight LED's (the driver circuitry would have to be overhauled) at several kHz to send a signal to DLP link glasses.
If LCD pixels can't change fast enough, strobing the backlight will not help because the pixels have to be fully transparent to pass these bright white flashes.
I've had a lot of trouble finding much info on DLP link. It may just mean that whatever signaling 120Hz DLP projectors receive on the input cable to tell it whether the frame is left or right for DLP link, is the same signaling this display uses.
We've discussed it before; I'd think the easiest way would be to only mark the start frame somehow and then the projector will autosync forever. The technical documentation is not freely available though, so it's all only a guess.

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by skrubol »

The glasses don't care too much whether the flashes are at 100% intensity or 10% intensity, and I doubt the color matters that much either. Simply flashing the backlight while some number of pixels are somewhat on should be enough for the receiver in the glasses to decipher.
I've read that thread previously. It doesn't take much data to mark a frame as left or right. On an XGA display there are over 2.3M data points (R+G+B pixels,) plus at least a few hundred thousand unused data points in the blanking areas. It would be easy to send some signal in here for every frame. It's too easy for noise or some sort of interruption to corrupt a few frames and make the projector lose sync for it to rely on an initial flag.

As far as interlaced goes, it's a very common 'workaround' mode when the 3d driver software doesn't have access to the underlying hardware API's. IZ3d supports this on both AMD and nVidia cards I believe. The old eDimentional drivers I had years ago supported this when you couldn't use the nVidia drivers. You lose half your vertical resolution, and I believe half your brightness as well because on a progressive scan display, every other line is black. It's far from optimal.

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by skrubol »

Oh, and every video card I know of supports 120Hz through the analog ports. My old 7600GT did for my CRT, and my new(er) 9800GTX does for my DLP projector. I think most cards have 350-400MHz RAMDAC's. That can push full HD at 120 Hz. I think the D-Sub cables are only rated to around 250MHz though, which would be around 1680x1050 max with short blanking at 120Hz.

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by DmitryKo »

skrubol wrote:The glasses don't care too much whether the flashes are at 100% intensity or 10% intensity, and I doubt the color matters that much either.
I don't think so. The flashes might be brief, but they have to be bright enough to get a tight sync. The glasses probably do care about color and intensity, because they specifically say "white flashes" in the marketing materials, and 10% intensity is anything but "white", not to mention that currently displayed picture can be anything but white. With DMDs, producing intensive white flash in an instant is not a problem since all the mirrors can take the "on" position simultaneously.
It's too easy for noise or some sort of interruption to corrupt a few frames and make the projector lose sync for it to rely on an initial flag.
Some signal degradation does not matter as long as you can receive vertical sync information, which are low-frequency square strobe pulses that can't be so easily corrupted, even when the horizontal sync is not tight enough to display the picture.
As far as interlaced goes, it's a very common 'workaround' mode when the 3d driver software doesn't have access to the underlying hardware API's.
I don't quite understand why and how does it need to be this way, so I'll take your word for that. However what you describe is NOT an interlaced signal, which by definition contains two half-resolution subfields instead of a full frame, it's just standard progressive signal where each other line is black. Might call it "line skipping" if you wish.
skrubol wrote:every video card I know of supports 120Hz through the analog ports.
I think most cards have 350-400MHz RAMDAC's. That can push full HD at 120 Hz. That can push full HD at 120 Hz.
They might support 120 Hz in low-res modes up to 1024x768, but AFAIK no video card supports 1920x1080 @120 Hz on analog VGA, which means you can't use the video card's clone mode to provide sync to the glasses. And 400 MHz RAMDACs were designed to handle 2048x1536 @85Hz, not 1920x1200 @120Hz. Anyway it's all only theory since I doubt iZ3D can be bothered enough. If the new displays will have built-in emitters or VESA Stereo ports, as ATI intends, there will be no need for tricks like that.

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by DmitryKo »

Fredz wrote:but other manufacturers should be able to sell small devices plugged in a USB or DVI port which could be connected to the eDimensional glasses. The team behind SoftGenLock did such an adapter to plug 3 pin DIN stereo glasses on the parallel port.
I'd rather trust that the ATI-compatible monitors will feature VESA Stereo port which you could use to plug the wireless transmiter and an USB port for power, that would eliminate most issues with imprecise sync and input latency in the monitor.

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by Fredz »

DmitryKo wrote:I'd rather trust that the ATI-compatible monitors will feature VESA Stereo port which you could use to plug the wireless transmiter and an USB port for power, that would eliminate most issues with imprecise sync and input latency in the monitor.
Sure, that would be the ideal situation if manufacturers would integrate VESA Stereo ports on their displays, but history has shown that they've moved on and all go for proprietary solutions. Samsung had such a port on their old Plasma models (PN42A450P and PN50A450P) but that's not longer the case on their new LCD and Plasma sets. I don't see anyone integrate this port in the future, and ATI surely isn't relevant enough to change this trend.

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Post by Fredz »

Nice to see new 3D monitors coming but still no VESA stereo port, and they start again with a new proprietary connector compatible with nothing else. Too bad...

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Re: iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by cybereality »

And those have got to be the most butt-ugliest glasses I have ever seen. I mean, they could have at least tried to hire a designer.

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Neil
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Which stereoscopic 3D solution do you primarily use?: S-3D desktop monitor
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iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!

Post by Neil »

The following is an excerpt of a blog article.  Read Full Article

Something new is cooking in the iZ3D camp!

Viewsonic / iZ3D Driver Mix

I'm afraid we know less than more, but the promotional page promises compatibility with both Nvidia and AMD graphics cards, and is based on LCD shutter glasses technology.  Our understanding is that Chi-Mei (CMO) makes Viewsonic panels, which explains why the drivers are under the CMO name.  This is also a potential indicator for how wide the iZ3D license agreements can potentially spread (i.e. who buys CMO panels?)!


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