Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

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Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by metalqueen »

Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming
by Joe Martin

Nintendo CEO Satoru Iwata has commented on the recent trend toward 3D gaming, claiming that doesn't think that the technology is going to be practical for home users.

Speaking about the trend towards 3D gaming that's been sparked by the likes of Avatar and Nvidia's stereoscopic 3DVision system, Iwata said that he thought consumers would worry about looking silly - which seems an odd comment coming from the man behind the Wii.

"I have doubts whether people will be wearing glasses to play games at home," Iwata said while welcoming 3D theatrical experiences like Avatar. "How is that going to look to other people?"
Read the whole story here: http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/201 ... d-gaming/1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by Neil »

I think his opinion stems from the fact that Nintendo's Wii doesn't have the gonads (AKA HDMI 1.4) to support the technology. Murphy's Law! When something goes wrong, make it look like you planned it that way! :P

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by Kamus »

Well, what did you expect? this is the same guy that decided that we don't need modern graphics to make good games. No no no, just a different input device, now that will make better games!

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by Likay »

They already did it once with the virtual boy. No success but the times has changed!
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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by Xerion »

The lack of HDMI 1.4 isn't the only problem. The wii is just not powerful enough. I wonder if nintendo's next console will be... In any case they will be much behind the rest of the market so of course they are gonna play down the whole thing until they can compete.
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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by DmitryKo »

Wow, a "dorky glasses" comment from a CEO... well, better think about how a common Wii player looks to other people, even without the glasses.

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by Likay »

Lol! ^^
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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by cybereality »

Funny when the two most popular games of the decade, WiiSports and Guitar Hero, are the ones that make you look like a fool when playing them. In fact, thats half the fun.

But on a serious note, why would he support something that cannot be done on his platform? Like maybe the Wii2 might support 720P but 3D, give me a break!!!

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by budda »

The Year 2010 - S3D console scorecard:

PS3 1: Wii 0

And thats even before the game kicks off .... !!

But thanks to modders, stereoscopic emulation already exists on the PC version of the Wii, so what gives.


I am sure Nintendo are working on something, whether we will see it soon or not is another matter.

:)

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by DmitryKo »

budda wrote:stereoscopic emulation already exists on the PC version of the Wii
What Wii emulator are talking about, the Dolphin? Unfortunately, the recent versions are build around OpenGL 2.0 renderer, which won't work with stereo drivers.
Last edited by DmitryKo on Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by BlackShark »

That is not the main problem of the wii.

In most wii games, you have to move your body to play (party games). Stereo3D looks very bad when moving since the brain is expecting the perspective to change while the game perspective does not... and cannot move (party games = multi user = no headtracking).

The problem is not power (the wii has plenty of power available when running these light graphics party games)
The problem is not even about hdmi (it is an issue but it can be circumvented with a nintendo made YUV to hdmi1.4 converter box)
The problem is that 3D would bring absolutely nothing to the core of the Wii gaming library.

The only games that do not involve moving around are the hardcore gamer games, but hardcore gamers have abandonned the wii already, why the hell would nintendo even try to do anything to conquer this market on such an old and outfashionned device ?
Wii + 3D doesn't make sense.
DmitryKo wrote:
budda wrote:stereoscopic emulation already exists on the PC version of the Wii
What Wii emulator are talking about, the Dolphin? Unfortunately the recent versions require OpenGL 2.0, so it won't work with stereo drivers.
I think there is also a DirectX graphics mode, but i haven't tried it for about 6 months, it used to be buggy as hell but i should try again to see how it wrks now.
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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by DmitryKo »

BlackShark wrote:I think there is also a DirectX graphics mode, but i haven't tried it for about 6 months, it used to be buggy as hell
It doesn't look like any progress has been made, they specifically discourage using it in favor of OpenGL http://forums.dolphin-emu.com/thread-4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by budda »

Hi,

You guys are answering your own question about wanting stereo on the Wii.


You say the Wii won't be effective with S3D, and the PC emulation with Dolphin is spotty (it may be), but you certainly are interested in trying it out, no....

I am sure if Nintendo got behind the Wii S3D, or the Wii2 S3D, there will be some people liking it.

Nintendo has deep pockets and they will not live or die because of S3D, at least for another few console generations.

Nintendo have learned their lessons with the VirtualBoy, and it will not have scared them away from S3D.

:)

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by zaphod666 »

Actually the Direct X plugin for dolphin has been updated and for many people runs faster than the OpenGl (but with less tweaking options). I have gotten a few gamecube and wii games to work in 3d, some of them perfectly playable. There is a thread on it in the IZ3D forums.
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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by NASAGuy »

While I think that it's Nintendo trying to cover their butt's in this situation, It would be very painful on the eyes to play a lot of the "big self-motion" interactive games in 3D.. That being said, a lot of the most popular games (Wii Sports, Wii Sports Resort, Mario Kart, etc) would be absolutely incredible to play in S3D and would definitely give an added benefit to game play in most of the mini-games.. archery, basketball, dogfighting, bowling, etc.. being able to focus on the distance would make the game much more enjoyable..

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by vrekks »

If Mario Kart Wii was in 3d I would be all like :woot
"Who has ever torn himself from the claw that encloses you when you drop a seed in a TV parlor? It grows you any shape it wishes! It is an environment as real as the world. It becomes and is the truth. Books can be beaten down with reason. But with all my knowledge and scepticism, I have never been able to argue with a one-hundred-piece symphony orchestra, full colour, three dimensions, and I being in and part of those incredible parlors."

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by DmitryKo »

Well, I for one am not really interested in console gaming. Rather then play stupid sports games with a "nunchuk", I'd engage in some real sport activity. I'm a hardcore gamer with a pretty powerful PC, so when I'm in a mood to play, I like to play graphically intensive online games like World in Conflict (hopefully StarCraft 2 and R.U.S.E will be out soon too add to my library). In regard to PC emulators, I wouldn't miss a chance to play the Rogue Leader series in stereo, since they were only available on the GameCube, but the current version of Dolphin is incompatible with Rogue Leader.


I would only be interested in a gaming console if it features stereo 3D, but I'm not going to buy 5-year old tech like the current Xbox and PlayStation, and PS-2 era consoles like the Wii are definitely out of question. So far it looks like console stereo gaming will be limited to 720p for the near future, so I would be better off with one of these 120 Hz monitors, Bit Cauldron designed glasses, and the D3D10 driver from iZ3D - hopefully by this Fall I will be purchase a Radeon HD 6870, the glasses kit, and the 27" Asus PG276H :shutter That would be a far better investment than shelling nearly $470 for a stupid underpowered gaming console, when the competition is cheaper now. So Mr. Ivata can kiss my ugly ass goodbye, though I doubt Nintendo will miss me, since there will soon be 70 millions Wii lemmings worldwide.

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by vrekks »

DmitryKo wrote:Well, I for one am not really interested in console gaming. Rather then play stupid sports games with a "nunchuk", I'd engage in some real sport activity.
By this logic you should want to go out and shoot people instead of playing FPSs, right? While I respect your opinion about consoles being underpowered and overpriced there is something to be said for ease of use. No settings to adjust, nothing to install, you can power on and be online playing faster than a pc, and the "designed for couch use" aspect of consoles is something that has value as well.
"Who has ever torn himself from the claw that encloses you when you drop a seed in a TV parlor? It grows you any shape it wishes! It is an environment as real as the world. It becomes and is the truth. Books can be beaten down with reason. But with all my knowledge and scepticism, I have never been able to argue with a one-hundred-piece symphony orchestra, full colour, three dimensions, and I being in and part of those incredible parlors."

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by DmitryKo »

vrekks wrote:By this logic you should want to go out and shoot people instead of playing FPSs, right?
No. By this logic, you should play a first person shooter because you don't get to shoot alien monsters in real life, and you should play real-time strategy because you don't get to command space battles, etc.
you can power on and be online playing faster than a pc, and the "designed for couch use"
Optical media loading times are quite slow anyway, a PS3 game can take a minute to load. My PC starts much faster then that and then loads a game in just a few seconds. It does cost 4 times as much, and my video card costs more than the whole gaming console, but it lets me play graphic intensive titles which are not available on consoles.

As for convenience of couch use, well, I'm not into couch sport, I don't even watch sports in the TV. I'd imagine kids would be more than happy to try it though.

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by vrekks »

So anything that can be done in real life should be and things that can't be done in real life should be played in video games? What about puzzle games or a car racing game? Would you play those?

Games can be installed to a console's hard drive so the optical media argument is moot. I doubt your pc can start a game faster than a console. No need to panic though. A pc is better at nearly every other task related to gaming. Just pointing out that there are things a console does better such as looking good in your entertainment center (I know you can get a htpc case for a pc but gaming components would be likely to overheat in one of those cases). One last point: optimization. A developer knows a console's hardware is going to remain constant so they can better optimize performance for that single hardware set.

EDIT: Which console is $470?
"Who has ever torn himself from the claw that encloses you when you drop a seed in a TV parlor? It grows you any shape it wishes! It is an environment as real as the world. It becomes and is the truth. Books can be beaten down with reason. But with all my knowledge and scepticism, I have never been able to argue with a one-hundred-piece symphony orchestra, full colour, three dimensions, and I being in and part of those incredible parlors."

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by DmitryKo »

vrekks wrote:What about puzzle games or a car racing game? Would you play those?
No. I tried it and driving Moscow traffic jams is soooo much funnier than any racing sim. There are lots of high-quality free/shareware puzzle games for the PC, so if I were to play them, there's no need to buy a gaming console for that.
Games can be installed to a console's hard drive so the optical media argument is moot
I thought you've just said you don't have to install console games, no? Looks like the nice simple picture starts to break apart...
there are things a console does better such as looking good in your entertainment center
I don't have an entertainment center; I do have precision studio monitors, digital piano, electronic drums, 16-track recorder and high-end headphones, and I think a gaming console would look quite stupid with these.
One last point: optimization. A developer knows a console's hardware is going to remain constant so they can better optimize performance for that single hardware set
While optimisation can eliminate some bottlenecks, it just can't make up for a 20x difference in GFLOPS and memory bandwidth.
Which console is $470?
The Nintendo Wii Sports Pack - that's what you pay for it in Russia. That's the same as the PS3 120 GB, $60 less than the newest PS3 Slim 250 GB + KillZone 2 bundle, and 1.5 times higher than the Xbox 360 Arcade that starts at $315.

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by vrekks »

If you can afford it I think the experience of playing a Wii with motion controls is something that would be well worth your money. If not buy a wiimote and use glovepie with some good scripts. It seems you are an audio/video/electrono-phile who doesn't like to sit on the couch so consoles don't seem to be the best thing for you. Enjoy your toys.
"Who has ever torn himself from the claw that encloses you when you drop a seed in a TV parlor? It grows you any shape it wishes! It is an environment as real as the world. It becomes and is the truth. Books can be beaten down with reason. But with all my knowledge and scepticism, I have never been able to argue with a one-hundred-piece symphony orchestra, full colour, three dimensions, and I being in and part of those incredible parlors."

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by DmitryKo »

Thank you. I think I'd have much more fun with a Saitek X52 Pro Flight System controller.

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by vrekks »

I have the Saitek X52. It's pretty good but it's the only stick and throttle I have ever owned so there's nothing to compare it to for me.
"Who has ever torn himself from the claw that encloses you when you drop a seed in a TV parlor? It grows you any shape it wishes! It is an environment as real as the world. It becomes and is the truth. Books can be beaten down with reason. But with all my knowledge and scepticism, I have never been able to argue with a one-hundred-piece symphony orchestra, full colour, three dimensions, and I being in and part of those incredible parlors."

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by cybereality »

I had a Wii since is came out and I sold it a few months ago. Thing would just collect dust in my living room. Not interested in playing PS2-quality games anymore.

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by vrekks »

Cyber please tell me you played Mario Kart Wii or Wii Sports Resort. Even House of the Dead is crazy fun with the quickshot and zapper. I probably play 3 point shoot out on Wii Sports Resort at least once a day.
"Who has ever torn himself from the claw that encloses you when you drop a seed in a TV parlor? It grows you any shape it wishes! It is an environment as real as the world. It becomes and is the truth. Books can be beaten down with reason. But with all my knowledge and scepticism, I have never been able to argue with a one-hundred-piece symphony orchestra, full colour, three dimensions, and I being in and part of those incredible parlors."

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by koshien »

Erase and rewind, 'cause they have changed their minds...

http://www.gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=113348
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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by DmitryKo »

GameCube is secretly designed to load graphical circuits which display graphics for right and left eyes respectively, for a future possibility of realizing 3D gaming experience
So, GameCube has been discontinued for 3 years, and now Nintendo tells us it could render stereo.... cool, but honestly, what graphics hardware absolutely can't? :woot

In 1999-2001, there was lots of interest in shutter glasses stereoscopy, spawned by the Elsa Revelator and their "automatic" stereo driver, and even the PlayStation 2 was able to render stereo - there was a 3rd party transmitter/glasses kit, the Splitfish eyeFX 3D, which managed to get support from some game developers. It would only work on a CRT TV though, and the quality of interlaced stereo isn't probably anything to write home about, but it still worked. So it seems like Nintendo was only following the trend in trying to implement stereo, but they didn't have the guts to release it in the end, and I don't really see this piece of history as a sign that Nintendo have changed their mind about stereoscopic gaming on the Wii.

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by budda »

Hi,

This article may clarify some issue about Nintendo and S3D consoles.

CEO Iwata quoted from the Nintendo Investor Relations press release, 29 Jan 2010 -
To tell you the truth, GameCube is secretly designed to load graphical circuits which display graphics for right and left eyes respectively, for a future possibility of realizing 3D gaming experience. So actually we have had interest on this technology

For more information refer Q8 - http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library ... qa/03.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Thanks.

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by DmitryKo »

budda wrote:This article may clarify some issue about Nintendo and S3D consoles
This is the same article cited two posts above.

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by budda »

Ahem....

I quoted from, and linked to, the original source with all the associated background material.

What's the point quoting a quote of a quote of a quote - from various fan sites. Its like the kids' game of whispering in a circle, where the original message gets misinterpreted.

For additional information in the same linked article, CEO Iwata also says in A1:
As a matter of fact, as an engineer, I prefer highly-sophisticated technologies so much that I cannot help but learn about them whenever new technologies are introduced. I'm sure Genyo Takeda, who is in charge of hardware development, must share this sentiment. However, new technologies alone cannot make a product that can be appreciated by the consumers.


In other words, if S3D isolates the player in a social gaming setting because of say, the need for everyone playing the game to wear unaffordable S3D glasses, then its not going to happen with the Wii.


:shutter :(

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by Anthony1 »

I don't think Nintendo is the only major gaming company that should be criticized in relation to the whole 3D issue. What about Microsoft and their Xbox 360? Sure, they have James Cameron's Avatar, and Invincible Tiger, but there hasn't been a single peep about any more S3D games coming down the pipe.

In fact, when Aaron Greenberg was asked what Microsoft had for 3D gamers, he basically said that at this time they don't have anything other than a game called Scrap Metal, which happens to be an anaglyph game (red and blue glasses) for the XBLA. They don't have anything else 3D related planned. He said that he didn't think Xbox gamers really cared about 3D gaming, and that they will provide 3D gaming for their customers if their customers start clamoring for it, but they don't think their customers are interested in it, and they have nothing planned.

We should be complaining about Microsofts attitude about this.

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by DmitryKo »

Well, I'm not a Nintendo investor and they don't have to feed me with these fairy tales (sorry, corporate PR). Without a blink in the eye Mr. Iwata now tells us that omitting stereoscopy was a conscious decision on the part of Nintendo, because their own research has shown that people just can't wear shutter glasses for more that two hours, while they can game with their precious non-stereoscopic Nintendo all they long. WTF? Sorry, I'm just not buying this.

Both Nintendo and Microsoft will downplay the importance of stereo 3D in order to sell their hardware which is currently can't be made stereo-enabled, but that's only going last to until they decide to jump on the bandwagon - and I have no doubts that they will, given how many display manufacturers invested in providing quality (hopefully) stereoscopic 3D on their TV sets.

At least Sony understands that content comes first. For now, it looks like they have become the locomotive of stereo gaming, primarily because they have direct business interest in practivaly anything related to stereo. As electronics manufacturer, they will sell 3DTV sets and shutter glasses; as a game publisher, they sell stereo-3D enabled games; and as gaming console manufacturer, they will sell the SDK to developers and game consoles to the users. And the fact that Nvidia had the only stereoscopic driver in the industry for years is not to be underestimated.


As for Xbox and Wii, it all depends on ATI now, since they supply graphics hardware for both consoles (they bought ArtX which was behind the GameCube and Wii). They need to start designing their chips with stereo optimizations in mind right now, in order for stereo support to happen at least by 2012-2013. If ATI can develop their own stereoscopic driver and work with Microsoft and Nintendo to provide stereoscopic extensions to their APIs, we might see the support on the next generation of Wii and Xbox (current generation is out of question since most units doesn't even feature a HDMI port).

And if they can't, Microsoft will probably dump ATI just like they dumped Nvidia before (not that I want it to happen, since ATI chips have been superior to Nvidia's for the last 3-4 years). Changing the provider of the GPU is far more easier than changing CPU architecture - it's generic HLSL shadersthat can run on almost any graphics hardware, thanks to the popularity of Direct3D, not some machine code which just can't be so easily emulated on another CPU.
Last edited by DmitryKo on Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by Anthony1 »

DmitryKo wrote: we might see the support on the next generation of Wii and Xbox (current generation is out of question since it doesn't feature a HDMI 1.3 port with enough bandwidth for 720p stereo).
If the 360 doesn't have enough bandwidth for 720p stereo, then how is James Cameron's Avatar the Game, and Invincible Tiger: The Legend of Han Tao working? I've played both games on my Samsung PN50A450, and they both looked pretty cool in Stereo 3D. With Invincible Tiger, I only tried the free demo, but I actually own Avatar. I'm not really that into the Avatar game, because I just don't think it's that great of a game, but the Stereo 3D seems pretty cool.

Why can't more 360 games do what Avatar and Invincible Tiger are doing?

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Re: Nintendo dismisses usefulness of 3D gaming

Post by DmitryKo »

Correction: full-resolution 720p120 actually fits well within the bandwidth of HDMI 1.0-1.2 with Category 2 cable (gotta memorize these numbers at last).

Hhowever, the conclusion still holds: official stereo support in current generation Wii and Xbox is unlikely because approximately half of Xbox 360 units sold don't have a HDMI port, and the Wii has no HDMI port at all - unlike PlayStation 3 which featured HDMI 1.3 port right from the start.

As for "half-resolution" TI's checkerboard and line-interleaved formats, these are not even included in HDMI 1.4, and the stereo SDK and firmware provided by Sony probably won't support these either. Some other "half-resolution" formats like RealD, Sensio and side-by-side are supported but are optional - the only mandatory console gaming format in HDMI 1.4 is 720p full-resolution stereo "frame packing" format. Of course the developers are free to implement other formats, but they must do it all on their own, and some things are just impossible to implement at the application level - for example, even supporting HDMI 1.4 half-resolution 3D formats is impossible without a firmware update, because it requires new control messages, not just a specifically encoded picture. And there are no signs that Microsoft is interested in updating the current Xbox 360 to support HDMI 3D.

See also:
Re: Sony Tells (Almost) All About PS3 Firmware Upgrade
HDMI 1.4 does NOT support checkerboard
3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

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