AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

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AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by metalqueen »

AMD Advances 3D Entertainment: Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at 2010 International CES

Forthcoming Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Standard One of Many 3D Technologies AMD Supports in Driving the Art and Adoption of 3D Entertainment

SUNNYVALE, Calif. --(Business Wire)-- Dec 07, 2009 AMD (NYSE: AMD) today announced that it will demonstrate the forthcoming Blu-ray stereoscopic 3D standard at the 2010 Consumer Electronics Show, showcasing how consumers will soon get to enjoy high-fidelity 3D entertainment once reserved only for theaters.

A new way to enjoy Blu-ray entertainment: Expected to hit store shelves in the second half of next year, Blu-ray stereoscopic 3D combines the crisp, high-definition images the format is known for with high-quality 3D visuals that seem to jump from the screen. As a contributing member of the Blu-ray Disc Association, AMD is working closely with technology partners as the format specifications are finalized over the coming year in order to help ensure compatibility with upcoming AMD hardware.

Seeing is believing: At the upcoming 2010 Consumer Electronics Show, AMD and CyberLink will jointly preview Blu-ray stereoscopic 3D entertainment for those in attendance. AMD will be located in the Grand Lobby (GL-8 and GL-10) of the Las Vegas Convention Center. The new standard is one of many 3D technologies AMD openly supports, along with 3D DLP televisions, dual-panel and line interleaved 3D monitors, and is part of AMD’s initiative to further both the art of 3D entertainment, and its adoption in homes worldwide through close collaboration with 3D technology partners, including OEMs, software developers and content distributors.

Continuing a proud tradition of technology leadership in graphics: Stereoscopic 3D for HD gaming and multimedia joins a long list of technologies that AMD has led the way in. Most recently AMD launched its series of next-generation ATI Radeon™ graphics cards, delivering the industry’s first and only support of DirectX 11 gaming currently, and multi-display entertainment made possible by AMD’s ground-breaking ATI Eyefinity technology.

“AMD has a long, proud tradition of delivering leading technologies to market – technologies that have a meaningful and positive impact on the PC experience,” said Rick Bergman, senior vice president, AMD Products Group. “Stereoscopic 3D is set to be one of these technologies, and that’s why AMD has committed the time and resources to ensure that when Blu-ray stereoscopic 3D is ready for the world, AMD will be ready to bring it to consumers, just as we have done recently with DirectX 11-capable hardware to support DirectX 11 gaming.”

“AMD has been a valuable partner, developing hardware optimized for the highest quality video and audio experience with PowerDVD Ultra,” said Alice H. Chang, CEO of CyberLink. “With the addition of stereoscopic 3D support for the next generation of Blu-ray discs, we’re ready to bring consumers an incredible new entertainment experience in the coming year. Our joint technology preview at the upcoming Consumer Electronics Show will give everyone a taste of what’s in store.”

About AMD

Advanced Micro Devices (NYSE: AMD) is an innovative technology company dedicated to collaborating with customers and technology partners to ignite the next generation of computing and graphics solutions at work, home and play. For more information, visit http://www.amd.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

AMD, the AMD Arrow logo, ATI, the ATI logo, Radeon and combinations thereof, are trademarks of Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. Other names are for informational purposes only and may be trademarks of their respective owners.
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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by DmitryKo »

metalqueen wrote:AMD (NYSE: AMD) today announced that it will demonstrate the forthcoming Blu-ray stereoscopic 3D standard at the 2010 Consumer Electronics Show, showcasing how consumers will soon get to enjoy high-fidelity 3D entertainment once reserved only for theaters.
How AMD would be able to demonstrate anything stereo 3D if they don't even have a stereo driver? Should have been "iZ3D will let AMD demonstrate" etc. :P

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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by ssiu »

Sounds like this is really just about Cyberlink PowerDVD player (a forthcoming version) supporting 3D Blu-Ray. I bet it will work on both AMD and Intel CPUs, ATI and NVIDIA video cards. AMD getting mentioned here is pure PR.

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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by Silversurfer »

How will Panasonic inititive on BRay fare with this? Hope we don't get two standards. :(
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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by winlonghorn »

We won't get two standards. AMD is on the Blu Ray Standards board and will simply be discussing where they fit in with the standard that they plan to approve as a whole. At least that is how I understand it.

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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by winlonghorn »

ssiu wrote:Sounds like this is really just about Cyberlink PowerDVD player (a forthcoming version) supporting 3D Blu-Ray. I bet it will work on both AMD and Intel CPUs, ATI and NVIDIA video cards. AMD getting mentioned here is pure PR.
That sounds fairly accurate to me. I will be happy to spend money on 3D BluRays immediately as long as they will support a very wide range of devices and situations. That is the best way to handle it I think.

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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by BlackShark »

It is perfectly possible for AMD to display 3D.

Movie playback is perfectly possible without any kind of 3D driver if the display is interlaced ou uses DLP checkerboard.
What's more AMD (ATi's mother company) could also be demonstrating an hdmi 1.4 prototype display from Panasonic or other monufacturer but that is all speculation.

Also remember that games do not need 3D drivers to work in 3D anymore since the release of AVATAR.
It is just a simple PR stunt but it is true. If AMD decides to use this as an example to the media showing that it's hardware can also display 3D, it would be logical to demonstrate 3D at the AMD booth.
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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by cybereality »

Stereoscopic 3D for HD gaming and multimedia joins a long list of technologies that AMD has led the way in.
Really, you coulda fooled me.

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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by DmitryKo »

ssiu wrote:this is really just about Cyberlink PowerDVD player (a forthcoming version) supporting 3D Blu-Ray. I bet it will work on both AMD and Intel CPUs, ATI and NVIDIA video cards.
Then you add stereoscopic monitors into the picture and it instantly becomes a mess, since only certain combinations of video cards and stereo monitors are supported. There is no way for an ATI card to support a 120 Hz monitor, iZ3D drivers are needed to support checkerboard or dual projector etc.
BlackShark wrote:Movie playback is perfectly possible without any kind of 3D driver if the display is interlaced or uses DLP checkerboard.

That rules out the most attractive future Full HD solutions like 120 Hz televisions from Panasonic and Sony (unless they will be backwards-compabitle with checkerboard), 120 Hz monitors From LG, Acer and Asus, and 26" iZ3D monitor, which do require interaction with the driver.
Also remember that games do not need 3D drivers to work in 3D anymore since the release of AVATAR.
Same as above.
What's more AMD could also be demonstrating an hdmi 1.4 prototype display from Panasonic or other monufacturer but that is all speculation.
HDMI 1.4 is irrelevant for checkerboard and 120 Hz Full HD, since it does not support these modes.

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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by BlackShark »

What do the hdmi1.4 3D features do then ?
I thought it was transmitting the info to the display telling "hey I want to send you 3D in xxxxx format, please switch automatically your 3D mode". Did I misread something ? (i did not read the official specs themselves, only what the press related, and your thread about bandwidth limitations)

You don't care about the bandwidth not being enough for FULLHD @120Hz. If the TV know it's recieving 3D images, you can unlock the refresh rate from the transmitted image rate
I never heard or read any Panasonic rep saying their system inputting 120Hz, only outputting 120Hz.
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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by winlonghorn »

DmitryKo wrote:There is no way for an ATI card to support a 120 Hz monitor.
Sorry, but I disagree with you there. ATI can indeed release future cards with HDMI 1.4 included. Will they be cost effective, who knows? However, there is a way for them to support it. Nothing is necessarily impossible.

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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by DmitryKo »

winlonghorn wrote:
DmitryKo wrote:There is no way for an ATI card to support a 120 Hz monitor.
ATI can indeed release future cards with HDMI 1.4 included ... there is a way for them to support it. Nothing is necessarily impossible.
Support what, exactly?

HDMI 1.4 is irrelevant. It does not support 120 Hz Full HD frame-sequenced stereoscopic 3D because it does not have the necessary bandwidth, at least unless CEC and VESA update their respective 861 and CVT standards to include Reduced Blanking timings for 120 Hz, and nothing indicates they are going to. DisplayPort v1.2 does have the needed raw bandwidth however and is going to be released by CES 2010.

Still, Nvidia 3D Vision support is not going to happen from AMD, and AFAIK there are no other glasses that use USB transmitter for sync. Other 3rd party shutter glasses synchronize trough standard VESA S3D sync connector or analog VGA, so they will not work with newest 120 Hz LCD monitors which only come with dual-link DVI connector (and new yet-unavailable Full-HD 120 Hz LCD monitors may even require dual dual-link DVI connectors or most likely DisplayPort 1.2).

So unless AMD gets their head out of their a$$ and makes their own glasses and drivers, or some other glasses manufacturer teams with iZ3D and/or AMD/ATI to produce USB synchronized glasses, there is no way to employ 120 Hz shutter glasses and LCD monitor with an AMD/ATI card.
Last edited by DmitryKo on Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by DmitryKo »

BlackShark wrote:What do the hdmi1.4 3D features do then ? I thought it was transmitting the info to the display telling "hey I want to send you 3D in xxxxx format, please switch automatically your 3D mode".
I have no information on exact implementation details since the HDMI spec is not open to general public and there have been no independent reviews. I suppose that in line with HDMI philosophy, many formats are optional and there should be a handshake process which selects the best possible transmission method.

The problem is quincunx (chekerboard) pattern is not a supported packing format, only sub-field sequential (1080i), frame sequential, line interleaved, half frame, side-by-side, 2D + depth, and 2D + depth wih graphics + depth (I suppose the last two are based on now-defunct WOWvx formats from Philips, where the image has a quarter-frame resolution of 960x540).

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1 ... 4_faq.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the TV know it's recieving 3D images, you can unlock the refresh rate from the transmitted image rate
I never heard or read any Panasonic rep saying their system inputting 120Hz, only outputting 120Hz.
Although frame interpolation is possible, the input lag would increase considerably; I'd think both Sony and Panasonic would at least offer a gaming mode which is based on a 60 Hz quincunx (checkerboard) pattern and that should have the best compatibility and image quality possible for 1080p60 devices like the PlayStation3.

Anyway, the point is not the higher refresh rates, it's about the way of providing sync to the shutter glasses. AMD cards have to use iZ3D drivers to get 3DTV support, and solution for 120 Hz PC monitors remains proprietary to Nvidia as of now. Which still brings a question what AMD will be demonstrating, exactly.

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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by BlackShark »

DmitryKo wrote:Anyway, the point is not the higher refresh rates, it's about the way of providing sync to the shutter glasses. AMD cards have to use iZ3D drivers to get 3DTV support, and solution for 120 Hz PC monitors remains proprietary to Nvidia as of now. Which still brings a question what AMD will be demonstrating, exactly.
AMD cards do not need any drivers to generate and transmit Dual Head, line interleaved, side by side, checkerboard formats or even iZ3D's own native signal. Just look at Peret Wimmer's stereoscopic player, Phil's Le Cauchemar, or the AVATAR game. All fully functionnal 3D apps without the need for iZ3D drivers.


AMD already announced what it will do :
Show a Cyberlink application reading a "3D BluRay" on an AMD/ATi computer (not necessarly the 3D blu Ray standard, it can just be a 3D video on a BluRay disc but i guess it should be pretty close to next year's 3D BluRay format) and display it on some 3D TV (we don't know which one but many already work)
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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by DmitryKo »

BlackShark wrote:AMD cards do not need any drivers to generate and transmit Dual Head, line interleaved, side by side, checkerboard formats
Just like any other decent video card and PC system out there.
a Cyberlink application reading a "3D BluRay" on an AMD/ATi computer .. display it on some 3D TV
Same as above.
even iZ3D's own native signal. Just look at Peret Wimmer's stereoscopic player, Phil's Le Cauchemar, or the AVATAR game. All fully functionnal 3D apps without the need for iZ3D drivers.

The problem is, so far very few game developers bother to test their visuals with "automatic mode" stereo drivers, save to implement a full-featured stereoscopic rendering engine.

iZ3D monitor is in unique postion because it's a kind of dual-head setup with no sync is required, you only need to know the formula for pre-processing the images.
http://download.programmerart.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3D Vision support does require the drivers, because you need to output the stereo picture/video to a specially prepared DirectDraw surface that is further processed by the driver.
http://developer.nvidia.com/object/3d_stereo_dev.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://ubisoft.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/ubi ... aqid=13025" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Peter Wimmer's player does not support iZ3D or 3D Vision, check the system requirements.
http://www.3dtv.at/Products/Player/Features_en.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


I'm stil unonvinced that AMD can take a credit for any of the above. I'd put it the other way: I want to use my Radeon HD4870 with a 120 Hz LCD monitors and shutter glasses. If they won't do something I will have to switch back to nVidia.

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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by BlackShark »

I did not test it myself but i read on the iZ3D forums that the latest version of stereoscopic player does support iZ3D monitors natively
http://forum.iz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=1500" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://forum.iz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=2066" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nvidia 3D vision support is performed through the nvidia driver, as expected.
The problem is, so far very few game developers bother to test their visuals with "automatic mode" stereo drivers, save to implement a full-featured stereoscopic rendering engine.
This is the issue of content, not technical ability to generate and display stereo3D images.
AMD considers that it is up to the developers to implement Stereo3D engine in their games. Which unfortunately is the best way to do it and the ultimate goal that we gamers should support.
Accessorly it also is the absolute only way to be 100% legal : in france, a Hollywood studio got sued and lost the trial for colorizing and selling a Black&White movie against the will of it's director, the very same thing can happen to stereo3D conversion.
I want to use my Radeon HD4870 with a 120 Hz LCD monitors and shutter glasses.
It makes absolutely no sense commercially speaking for AMD to invest any money at all in making their own brand shutter glass since the big TV industry decided to invade the market in 2010. AMD would loose much much more money that it could potentially gain.
Thay's better follow the trend and support already existing hardware rather than creating their own.... which is exactly what they are doing.
So far nvidia is the only 3D glasses manufacturer to use this technology (dumb 120Hz monitor, sync by the computer). All others always use a direct sync between the display and the shutter glasses.
So what you are saying here is "I want to use the nvidia Geforce 3D vision glasses" on an ATI GPU. Well yes that would be great but since AMD does not want to invest in the Mono-3D to Stereo-3D game conversion drivers against nvidia, but prefer to support 3rd party developers (like iZ3D and DDD). So you should not expect AMD to do it.
iZ3D has already spread a few rumors about a possible future support of the nvidia glasses on ATi GPUs only.

What AMD will do for sure is support the hdmi 1.4 norm (just like nvidia will do) since it seems to be the standard that next year's consumer 3DTVs will be using and provide a standard way for developers to access the hdmi 1.4 features through the display driver (it may be an AMD api or a standard windows api but it will be easy for AMD to implement).
What we do not know it whether the 3D features of hdmi 1.4 can be achieved through firmware update of current hdmi 1.3 GPUs or if it will require new GPUs...
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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by crim3 »

Sorry for getting in the middle, but i think that what Dmitry says is that you could change the word 'AMD' in this article by any other brand name as AMD is just providing generic PC hardware.
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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by DmitryKo »

crim3 wrote:i think that what Dmitry says is that you could change the word 'AMD' in this article by any other brand name as AMD is just providing generic PC hardware.
That's true. AMD/ATI claims to provide the best gaming experience in the world, yet all they can show on a stereoscopy promotion event are some third party solutions for video decoding? AMD is going to lose their hard-won customers because of this attitude.
BlackShark wrote:
DmitryKo wrote:The problem is, so far very few game developers bother to test their visuals with "automatic mode" stereo drivers, save to implement a full-featured stereoscopic rendering engine
This is the issue of content, not technical ability to generate and display stereo3D images
AMD considers that it is up to the developers to implement Stereo3D engine in their games. Which unfortunately is the best way to do it and the ultimate goal that we gamers should support.
It's rather an issue of development budgets. Avatar is a big game project based on a blockbuster movie - a stereoscopic 3D movie, mind you - by a highly-regarded film director which became a hit before even being released, so it is budgeted accordingly and can afford reimplementing the wheel. And Invincible Tiger is just another console game which had no other choice but to reimplement the wheel, since there is noone else to provide the stereo support.

I'm not convinced that implementing stereoscopy at the engine level is the best possible way; it does give the developers full creative control, but it's not future proof, since any new output device will have to be explicitly supported by the application, which means older applicaions will never be updated to support newer hardware. I still remember the days of DOS gaming with a Gravis UltraSound card, and I wouldn't want to return to a programming model where applications are left on their own with either multiple proprietary APIs for each piece of hardware or very generic middleware APIs which does not expose every unique feature of the device.

A plausible goal is to have a standard driver model for encoding stereo ouput to the display device, and the ultimate goal is to implement stereo features at the core level of the graphics API and in the display driver interface. That would be the most compatible and future-proof solution.
Thay's better follow the trend and support already existing hardware rather than creating their own.... which is exactly what they are doing ... AMD does not want to invest in the Mono-3D to Stereo-3D game conversion drivers against nvidia, but prefer to support 3rd party developers (like iZ3D and DDD).
Sorry, I don't see them following anything in a useful manner, the way AMD is marketing their "support" for iZ3D is unconvicing at best.

I do not urge AMD to enter LCD monitor business or shutter glasses business, but they could at least team with 3rd parties and endorse their 120 Hz solutions, like Nvidia are doing with Samsung and Viewsonic (and Zalman).

What about providing a standard VESA stereo connector on an external bracket, or arranging with some monitor maker to include a standard VESA stereo connector in their 120 Hz monitors, like they do it in 120 Hz 3DTVs? AMD do not have to promote their own shutter glasses, they have no incentive to withdraw support for 3rd party emitters and glasses (unlike nVidia), and many 3rd party emitters do feature VESA stereo connector.

It does require sligthly more effort than just showing you some pre-rendered stereoscopic content which anyone else is capable of showing as well.
So far nvidia is the only 3D glasses manufacturer to use this technology (dumb 120Hz monitor, sync by the computer). All others always use a direct sync between the display and the shutter glasses. So what you are saying here is "I want to use the nvidia Geforce 3D vision glasses" on an ATI GPU.
That's because there were no mass produced 120 Hz digital displays until recently, and many 3rd party glasses were mostly designed with CRT monitors in mind, that's why they use analog VGA for sync. When there are more 120 HZ Full HD LCD displays which use either dual-link DVI or DisplayPort, I'd imagine 3rd parties would soon be following suit by introducing DVI, DisplayPort or USB emitters. Either that, or AMD could just endorse the VESA standard stereo connector, as I said above.
What AMD will do for sure is support the hdmi 1.4 .. and provide a standard way for developers to access the hdmi 1.4 features through the display driver
There are no new features in HDMI version 1.4 which are relevant for PC users, and most features of HDMI are just higher-level data link and transport protocols etc., all implemented in software/firmware.

Come on, how relevant is in-cable Ethernet which requires you to replace your $50-per-piece HDMI cables and your $200 video card? What a joke, a $10 100BASE-TX hub and a pair of $2 UTP cables would do the same. HDMI 1.3 at least doubled the bandwidth of the physical layer.

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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by DmitryKo »

Just thought of a way to make VGA pass-through glasses work with 120 Hz LCD monitors.

Activate the clone mode on a secondary VGA or DVI-A output, choose a generic monitor driver and set the video mode to 800x600 @120 Hz (availabe on any modern AMD or Nvidia card), and attach the VGA pass-trough to this output.

No termination is required as far as I know, but I'm not so sure that the sync will be perfect between two outputs, and even if the sync is OK, this would only work in Vista and Windows 7, since XP and 2000 do not have a built-in clone mode.

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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by rajkosto »

theres clone mode in every video driver, even if its not shown in display manager in windows
and yes, as people who test input lag have demonstrated, its not perfectly in sync with the original display
also, what would it do ? not EVERY 2nd frame is meant for the other eye, especially if theres some stall somewhere if framerate is below the wanted one.

best way would be to make extended desktop to a 640x480 composite output, then output pure white or pure black to it (depending on which shutter should be closed), that way you could determine which eye you need by the average voltage level on the composite output... black would have a much lower average voltage than white, however this wouldnt work perfectly on ati cards because they have the occasional desynchronisation in dual head mode.

actually its even better to use vga rather than composite, since then you have a pure red/green/blue wire, that will be at maximum voltage when the frame is white, and at minumim when the frame is black. could do the same thing with DVI as well, if you could set up some transistors to figure out the differential voltage on the red or green or blue differential pair.

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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by DmitryKo »

Well, now that AMD finally woke up to support 3rd party USB emitters, it's all only theory.

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Re: AMD Demonstrates Blu-ray Stereoscopic 3D Playback at CES '10

Post by rajkosto »

those glasses wont be coming untill Q2 2010
i really would like for iz3d to let us write output mode plugins :D, then i could try crazy stuff like that

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