The future of stereo?

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DDuckMan
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The future of stereo?

Post by DDuckMan »

My trusty NEC FP2141SB is starting to have edge focus and convergence issues, so I looked around to see what I could find in a new high refresh rate CRT. I couldn't find anything decent at all so I ordered a refurbished out of production Sony. My experience has me wondering about the future of stereo gaming.

There are only a few CRTs still in production and the slower refresh rates will force people to decide between running a CRT at low resolutions or trying other technologies. Are there decent, affordable, and simple alternative comming up?

A couple I have seen have significant drawbacks. Projector options are intriguing, but complicated and expensive. Native 3D monitors are also out of reach for most. Does LCD/analgraph give decent results? Do the cyan glasses help color reproduction?

I would hate to see stereo technology pushed out by the popularity of LCD monitors. Since most computers are running a LCD monitor now, the best hope is for progress in LCD stereo solutions. Without a good LCD stereo option, I fear driver support will fade away.
Last edited by DDuckMan on Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by nubie »

I fully agree, unfortunately for me I have never had the Shutter glasses work properly for me, I would have needed a minimum 140hz refresh monitor, and I never had one.

See what the LCD tech has afforded us with a Planar/Cobox configuration:

http://mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=136

Basically a free benefit of LCD is the polarization that is part of the process, click on some of the links in my post to see how bright it will look.

Keep in mind that the Polarizing glasses will be much lighter and much darker than shutter glasses, greatly reducing bleed-through.

Other benefits include no cords/batteries/transmitters/dongles or recievers.

You do require 2 LCD monitors and a piece of semi-reflective material, but LCD's are getting very affordable, you could even put together a 15" demo model out of old LCD's to check it out, if it looks good to you start hunting for some LCD's.

I purchased my 17" for $45, of course it was "broken" and I had to tweak it a bit, but it is now working great.
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Post by scarab »

do you now this monitor? http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/crt-monitor/iiy ... 2/details/

1024 x 768 at 175 Hz
1600 x 1200 at 110 Hz
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Post by DDuckMan »

scarab wrote:do you now this monitor? http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/crt-monitor/iiy ... 2/details/

1024 x 768 at 175 Hz
1600 x 1200 at 110 Hz
That is a nice one, but sadly not available in the US. I have an old VMP 510 that did 1600 x 1200 @ 104 Hz. I moved it to work when I got the NEC, but now it is holding up better that the newer NEC. That old Iiyama is still the best monitor I have ever had. Get one while you still can.

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Post by scarab »

at the german ebay site i could get some of this monitors. Sometimes they have one ore two years warranty.
I think you could also get one in the US.
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Post by dr_barnowl »

We touched on this in another thread.

The only way LCDs are going to be good for S-3D is if people make more of the parallax barrier models that Sharp invented, or HMDs become a lot better.

The refresh speed is just too low to work with page-flipping technologies. You can't use LCD projectors in a polarized setup because LCD inherently produces polarized light.

As for other displays?

CRT - I suspect CRTs will not be manufactured in bulk any longer. The resolution and refresh rates of LCD are finally getting to the point where they can challenge CRT for standard displays, and the prices are coming down as the production ramps up. Because of the production technologies, it's actually cheaper to make widescreen panels, and who's going to turn down a nice cheap widescreen LCD (or two) for their computer?

So what could replace CRT as the S-3D display of choice?

VRD - Virtual Retinal Display. Laser projected image straight to the back of your eye. Still in it's infancy, and low-res and monochrome as I recall.

DLP - Digital Light Processor projectors. The kind with the little mirrors instead of an LCD mask. Currently in mainstream production. You can use these with shutter glasses, with two you can use polarized filters. It would be feasible to produce an all-in-one unit with a single output lightpath for polarized glasses, although it would be expensive. Suffers from expensive consumables, expensive to buy, awkward to set up, and occupies a lot of space. Has the advantage of being able to support a large screen area.

The next generation!

SED - Surface-conduction Electron Emitter display. Very promising. The "nanotech" version of CRT, each pixel has it's own electron gun, instead of every pixel being activated by the same gun swept across the screen by a magnetic field. Should have many of the same display characteristics as CRT - the high contrast, the high refresh rates, good lengevity, some of the characteristics of LCD - the crisp pixels, the fixed design resolution, the flat-panel form factor and lower power consumption. Expect this one to kick plasma into the gutter when production ramps up.

OLED - Emits it's own light. Very power efficient, should have great refresh rates. The compounds used are not so stable as CRT phosphors.


You do get the feeling that companies are holding back the manufacture of the next generation of display technologies until they can thoroughly milk the development costs of the old ones. Which is a shame.

My personal thought - the ideal S-3D display would be something like OLED, a light emitting flatpanel. Each pixel would be half the vertical width of a normal display, very high resolution, and capable of generating light polarised at 90 degrees to its neighbour. Stylish polarized "viewing glasses" would become a commodity item. No need for finicky parallax technologies or elaborate systems that track your eyes and present different images. Well, we can dream....

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Hmm

Post by Gerald »

The ideal 3d display would be either of the 2 extremes.

Either a VRD display, with head tracking. There's a company that makes full resolution microdisplays using LCoS chips. I think the resolution on the most expensive one is 3000 or 4000 horizontal pixels. It is very expensive, tens of thousands of dollars.

BUT - could be made cheap. It just needs several LCoS chips, which can be mass produced cheaply, and some LED lights and glasses manufactured. Could easily be made for less than $500 a pair for a display with a stereo resolution of 2000x1000 or so per eye, mass produced.

OR - a true holographic display. A flat screen that sends a different image to each possible angle. Getting up and walking around would show different images, depending on the angle. No googles at all, as many viewers as can see the screen.
However, this requires IMMENSE computing power - the currently available display requires a "computing cluster." The displays are sheets of plastic with tiny holes, and lots and lots of LEDs. Not anything near to being currently manufactured. Probably 20 years away, honestly.

The current 3d monitor being sold by iZ3d is NOT bad. With a head tracker and proper software support (for both the 3d and the head tracker, ideally) it would provide almost as immersive an experience as the above 2 extreme possibilities. 1650x1080, stereo, is a HIGH resolution. I think the contrast is supposed to be pretty good, as well.

(although : the monitor got SLAMMED in reviews for not being properly calibrated out of the box, nor having calibration options on the hardware OSD)

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Finding CRTs

Post by gisabun »

Finding good CRTs is like finding a good carousel 5-CD player. Mine's about to go after maybe 15 years and they're getting harder to find as well, I have over 1,500 CDs around. :-)

As for CRTs, only thing to do is check the major manufacturers and the "specialty" monitor makers. But I suspect they will be of a limited choice.

What do graphics artists, multimedia people and game developers use? Surely not something "cheap".
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Re: Finding CRTs

Post by DDuckMan »

gisabun wrote:Finding good CRTs is like finding a good carousel 5-CD player. Mine's about to go after maybe 15 years and they're getting harder to find as well, I have over 1,500 CDs around. :-)
I have an Adcom 5-CD player I might consider selling...

I just read that Sony OLED displays should be out in 2008. There is hope for us yet. I just have to keep my FW900 going two more years.

Apparently the biggest holdup has been longevity. The first generation OLED dispays only lasted about 5000 hours. Newer technology should allow 20000 hours. Even better news is that the manufacturing process is cheaper than LCDs, so after the initial hype, they should be relatively inexpensive.
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Post by Jahun »

"The only way LCDs are going to be good for S-3D is if people make more of the parallax barrier models that Sharp invented, or HMDs become a lot better.

The refresh speed is just too low to work with page-flipping technologies. You can't use LCD projectors in a polarized setup because LCD inherently produces polarized light."


You are forgetting the excellent use of LCD's in the planar mirror setup, as for instance Nubie showed nicely.

Besides that, LCD's can definately be used in passive polarization setups. Even better than DLP in specific cases. Yes they are already polarized but that is no drawback at all.

A scientific paper where LCD beamers were used in passive (and shutter at the same time btw.. :) )

http://www.uni-weimar.de/cms/fileadmin/ ... _paper.pdf

Some explanation on how basic filters would work, plus how SilverFabrics ueberfilters would work:

http://www.crystalcanyons.net/Pages/Tec ... hop_1.shtm

Long story short: probably most LCD projectors work fine with 10$ polarizing filters.

[/url]

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Post by Likay »

I can confirm that LCD-projectors works, both with ordinary polarizing filters and the special designed (by silverfabric SPAR-filters that simply twist the polarisation to gain a higher degree of radiation). However: This only works using LCD's with polarisation angles of 0 or 90? (using 45/135? glasses). Twisting the polarization with ordinary filters works quite ok (with a minor light loss, nearly about the same light loss you get with DLP's i think). Using special polarizers (as the SPARS make you gain as much as 75% of light from the projector (up to about 45% with ordinary polarizers). However i cannot recommend using camera polarizers (tried that). After about 10 hours of use the camerafilters simply lost their polarizing effect. I suspect it's the uv-light from the projectors doing that.The filters are not heated so much that i think that makes the damage. Also tried using shutterglasses with an LCD-projector but that's no go. Same result as i had with my Samsung-LCD. A lot of flicker and no experienced 3d-effect. (Tried that since it seemes like i have bad luck with one of the SPAR-filters that simply wouldn't carry on for more than 35 hours) :/...
However, when it's working i don't think it can get any better than a polarized rig!
I'm seriously hoping i only have some birth issues here. :?

On the driver hand i hope that Nvidia doesn't drop the stereodriver developement now when the IZ3D-developers made their own drivers that seems to support both ATI-cards, multiprocessors, HDR, Hw T&L and more... Only withdraw, it only supports IZ3D-monitors.
If not Nvidia does it i'm ready to pay a slight fee for such driver for my setup! :P
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Post by Neil »

Why would NVIDIA drop their support?!? :o

This is a shot in the arm for them - a justification to ENHANCE their support! Successful businesses like NVIDIA couldn't survive if every time an innovation was released, they decided to roll over and die! :lol:

Nothing bad could come from this. This was an industry wake-up call - a call that I'm sure you will all agree was very much needed.

Reading through the posts, it's interesting how our members quickly found negativity in a very positive event. We need to make a conscious effort to overcome that mentality because we want to move forward, not back.

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Post by Likay »

Sorry, but the thought kinda struck me. I had my 8800GTX since november last year (checked my receipt...). I guess i'm a bit frustrated seing it in my bookshelf every day. (should have hidden it somewhere so it doesn't hurt my eyes ;) ). Anyway: Thanks for your spark and glow Neil. Looking forward to see what went around in Paris. :)
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Post by Jahun »

Likay:

What do these SPAR filters cost anyway? I e-mailed with the physicist working on them quite a while back, but never got aroound to ask how expensive they are..
And what types of ordinary filters did you use, atm I have some cheap ones incoming. Not with glass or anything. Are the cheap ones ok? (I will cool them by airflow)

I guess with the high gain of the silverscreen, the SPARs are not needed in my fully darkened room.


Neil:
Most here have a setup already ofcourse and there is no direct, immediate gain from this IZ3D monitor in the current setups. I guess some hoped for universal drivers or something. But when looking at it objectively, what the 3D community needs is hardware that will take it mainstream. And the IZ3D monitor hopefully will do just that. If so, good universal drivers should come quickly enough.

Now let's pray for decent 3D movies :P


ps: I am still playing in anaglyph, if in 3D. Waiting for passive parts to come in...

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Post by RAGEdemon »

Hi Neil...

I am afraid I have to disagree... Scanning through the posts, I don't see any negativity in the reaction to the announcement. Not an amazing deal of enthusiasm, but I guess most of us were expecting some "Right Here, Right Now!" kind of thing... afterall it was yourself who hyped it up in numerous threads... we could all feel your excitement bursting through the posts.

The impression was further reinforced by one of your stickies where you posted JPS images of working games with a tag reading:

"Fill up our advocacy and customer service forum pages, and I'll tell you the secret of how I did this - and how you can do it too."

Now the announcement... we can't actually "do it too" can we?
I think most of all, this is the part which left us not quite so flabbergasted...

Now, please don't get me wrong... we are very grateful to yourelf and to IZ3D. I dont think anyone has said it very much though so let me take this opertunity to say it. Thank You Neil, The whole community greatly appreciates you going all the way to Paris to make the big announcement.

It is indeed big and carries ALOT of potential. The driver quality and ease of use for the average joe was the major obstacle opposing stereo3D uptake by the general public. As the poster said above, if this was on display at a few locations with a good demo, everyone would want one. IZ3D have done an amazing job and they deserve it.

Thats all well and good, but for the vast majotiry of us current stereogamers here and now, without the monitor, it will not make a big difference in the SHORT term.

In the long term, this might of course turn out to be the equivelent of the first lightbulb... the bright spark and big bang of technology that everyone takes notice of and starts moving towards.

Who knows... maybe in the future people will be walking around with polarised contact lenses with these screens occupying virtually all aspects of life.

For the moment though, all the vast majority of us can do is wait and hope for nVidia to release an improved driver a few months down the line or for IZ3D to finish development of theirs and release it to buy.

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Post by Likay »

"Jahun

What do these SPAR filters cost anyway? I e-mailed with the physicist working on them quite a while back, but never got aroound to ask how expensive they are..
And what types of ordinary filters did you use, atm I have some cheap ones incoming. Not with glass or anything. Are the cheap ones ok? (I will cool them by airflow)

I guess with the high gain of the silverscreen, the SPARs are not needed in my fully darkened room."


I've started with my polarized rig just for 2-3 months ago or so. First the projectors i ordered at first werent in stock so i had to get other ones. The ones i use now is Hitachi CP-X260 LCD-projectors and they work (so far) flawlessly! They have a lumen output of 2500 in normal output mode but i always use silent mode with 2000 lumen which is quite enough. My silverscreen is a 2000x1500mm silverscreen and the filters (SPAR) from silverfabric in germany. Now prepare for a shock: The price of the SPAR-filters i have is: 397 euros each, meaning you have to pay 794 for a pair (almost a price of a projector)...
The SPAR's are intended for use with LCD-projectors only! The cannot be considered ordinary polarizers since they somehow twist the polarization. They cannot be used with DLP. The pros with these filters is that you get a throughput of light at up to 71% compared to 44% using ordinary polarizers. So: Having a polarized setup with DLP's having 2000 Lm each with ordinary polarizers results in 880 Lm for each eye.
Compared with LCD-projector @ 2000 Lm each with SPAR's you have 1420 Lm for each eye.
Using ordinary polarizers with LCD proj may result in a slight blue tone on one eye and a slight yellow tone on the other eye but the effect of that is far from disturbing. No such effects with the SPARS though.
As said i tried cheap polarizers for digital cameras but they only last 10 hours of play before loosing their effect. I believe it's the uv-radiation that killed the camera polarizers, not the heat (not 100% sure on that though).
With the screen & projs i have there's no problem regarding light. With my curtains pulled down and fully daylight outside, and the light on in the room there's still no problem playing 3d so with facit in my hand: Try get some cheap polarizers for projectors but stay away from those made for cameras (maybe you can use them with uv-filters).
The pros with this kind of 3D setup is: You can have as much people watching at the same time since only a cheap pair of polarized glasses each is enough. You get no flickering and almost no ghosting (compared with my sh-glasses from e-d the difference is like night and day....). You get a high degree of light output since you have one projector for each eye.

The against: First, expensive... two projectors running at the same time doubles your projector cost. Light bulbs and airfilters...
When running windows in just 2d mode you get a strange 3d-look (The icons may appear a bit in front/back of the screen dept and not at the same dept everywhere at the screen) Personally i think it's a kinda cool effect anyway 8) ). Having the projectors straight at 90? horisontal and the screen 90? vertical solves this issue but may cause problems regarding placement of the projectors/screen. Ability to twist the screen vertically also solves it i think. You also have to keep your head straight too but that is the fact with every polarized s-3d solution.

Have never excused myself for bad english, but in case something is diffuse here i have to blame it to my bad english. :)

Thank you Ragedemon for your words. Just what i wanted to write. :)
Last edited by Likay on Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Jahun »

Thanks for that super explanation Likay!

For now I'll try the cheap polarizers first, maybe SPAR later. But I never play with any other light than coming from the projectors. I like it fully dark except the game on screen :)

I have a hitachi pj-tx100, since they are out of production by now, the one I will get as second is the pj-tx300. The only difference is more or less the quite higher contrast of the 300.. I suppose it won't be much of a problem. These projectors give only 1000 lumen or so.

At the moment the brightness is fine for me, polarizers will cut it to say 1/3, but the screen gain will also be almost 3x of what I have now. (white wall)..

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Re: Finding CRTs

Post by gisabun »

DDuckMan wrote:
gisabun wrote:Finding good CRTs is like finding a good carousel 5-CD player. Mine's about to go after maybe 15 years and they're getting harder to find as well, I have over 1,500 CDs around. :-)
I have an Adcom 5-CD player I might consider selling...
Well, I did finally pick up one. Only bummer is that it has no headphone jack.
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Post by Neil »

RAGEdemon wrote:Hi Neil...

I am afraid I have to disagree... Scanning through the posts, I don't see any negativity in the reaction to the announcement. Not an amazing deal of enthusiasm, but I guess most of us were expecting some "Right Here, Right Now!" kind of thing... afterall it was yourself who hyped it up in numerous threads... we could all feel your excitement bursting through the posts.

The impression was further reinforced by one of your stickies where you posted JPS images of working games with a tag reading:

"Fill up our advocacy and customer service forum pages, and I'll tell you the secret of how I did this - and how you can do it too."

Now the announcement... we can't actually "do it too" can we?
I think most of all, this is the part which left us not quite so flabbergasted...

Hi Rage,

Sorry for the late response. I just got back from Europe, and now that I'm not spending a premium on Internet access, I can answer messages properly.

If I'm understanding correctly, there was hope that the drivers would work on all S-3D solutions. If I had that expectation, I would probably feel the same way initially, and I can appreciate that.

When I made those remarks about our members being able to take advantage of the technology as well, I was thinking from the standpoint of members benefiting from our incentive programs (FREE MONITORS!) and discounts (20% to 40% discounts!). A lot of work went into this whole thing, and with everything tieing in together, it is all very exciting and attainable! :D

AND I'm still not done! :o More website enhancements and services are coming - including a certain recommendation I received from a valued member...:wink:

Regards,
Neil

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