Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

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Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by slipstream »

I have reverted back to a single monitor from my Surround 3DS set-up as I didn't think the flanking monitors really made a big difference as you can only focus on 1 screen at a time anyway.

But a single 24 inch 3D screen gave me no immersion factor at all so I tried a few fresnel lenses until I stumbled on the perfect one and wow, what a difference, and it really increases the depth perception, for me anyway. And the FOV is increased dramatically. I am really pleased with the outcome and was wondering if anyone else had a similar set-up?

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by cybereality »

That looks pretty sick. Where did you get that mount? And which lens is that? I would want to try on my Zalman, but I recall something about fresnels messing up the polarization. Maybe I'm confused, I don't know.

Also, when I read the topic title I thought you were talking about the Nintendo 3DS. Was about to ask how you got one so early. LOL!

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by slipstream »

Hi cybereality. Thanks for the comments. I have no polarisation issues at all, but I can't comment on the use of fresnel's with a Zalman type monitor. I have a couple spare and will happily send you a lens, mounts, and magnets.

The mount is basically 2 plastic menu holders with 2 neo magnets attached to the frame (with sellotape) which I made from a strip of alloy from my local hardware store. The frame is attached to the rear of the monitor by sticky back velcro.

You may not need a frame, it depends on your eye level relative to the monitor. My virtual racing seat is set high relative to my desk. You may be able to seat the lens on your desk using only the menu holders. The only must is that your eye level must be exact to the centre of the lens, for best viewing.

PM me your address and I'll put one in the post for you along with the holders. I would value your response and feedback.

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by cybereality »

Dude, you're the man! I just sent you a PM. Can't wait to check this out.

Hopefully it will work on the Zalman, but I also have a 2D monitor I just got that surely will work. Not sure I want to glue anything to my monitor (especially the new one) but I should be able to figure something out. I did actually experiment with fresnel before, in the process of making a DIY projector (which actually did somewhat work, but thats another story). Looking into the fresnel was a pretty amazing experience, and it almost looked 3D just due to the immersion factor. I think I did test it with shutter glasses too and that was pretty cool. But that was a long time ago, its hard to remember.

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by slipstream »

This is a great alternative to 3DS, absolutely, as a fresnel doesn't just give you a larger screen. It extends the focal plane to a point at infinity so your eyes are focused way behind the monitor (similar to collimation). So the effect of using a fresnel is more immersive than sitting in front of a very large screen because the large screen (i.e. projector) simply gives you a bigger image. It does not extend the focal plane. To me its similar to looking out of a small window. Your eyes are no longer focused on the window (monitor glass) but are instead looking right through at the image.

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by Okta »

I love me some frenels :). What size and spec is your lens? I have done this with a few monitors but not a 3d one. My HMD uses 2 and the immersion is huge. Also remember that any 3d will give some extension of the focal plane through the use of separation.

Cyber: yeah the fresnel will mess up polarization.
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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by slipstream »

Agreed Okta, focal plane is extended with 3D, so you only gain an increase in screen size.

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by cybereality »

Okta wrote:Cyber: yeah the fresnel will mess up polarization.
Too bad. Maybe it will work with the parallax barrier, though.

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by Okta »

cybereality wrote:
Okta wrote:Cyber: yeah the fresnel will mess up polarization.
Too bad. Maybe it will work with the parallax barrier, though.
It would be interesting to test. The angle of the eyes on the barrier will be different so the range will be different. Hopefully in focal range of the fresnel.
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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by cybereality »

Okta wrote:It would be interesting to test. The angle of the eyes on the barrier will be different so the range will be different. Hopefully in focal range of the fresnel.
True. It may require a special pattern. Or maybe something crazy like putting the barrier on the fresnel instead of the screen...

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by cybereality »

So I got the fresnel lens. It is AMAZING!!! First off, it DOES actually work with the Zalman (to my surprise). The 3D effect is great. What it does to your FOV is really something to see. Playing 3D games on the Zalman with the fresnel lens is very much the experience you would imagine you get with an HMD (but rarely do with consumer level models). The way I had it set up, the lens would completely cover my stereoscopic FOV. Not sure exactly what number that works out to, but its somewhere between 60 and 90 degrees FOV. Really, it looks amazing, its almost like you get sucked into the game. People need to try this themselves.

I played some of UT2004, which was really nice. The depth of shooting rockets was really nice (with the stream of smoke) and the level just felt more real. Somehow it increased the sense of 3D, not sure why. But it did look more 3D. Then I played GRID, which really blew me away. I'm telling you, fresnel+3D is an epic win. Its funny because I did experiment with this many years ago, but I guess I just forgot how good it looked. Plus it makes a 22" screen feel like a 26" screen. Its just a win-win situation. The only downside is that it did give me a headache after about 30 minutes. A small price to pay for great immersion.

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by Okta »

I am really surprised it did not ruin the polarization. But it sounds awesome. Fresnals do something more than 3d does alone for sure. The combo sounds great. Which lens did you get Cyber and is it as large as the screen or a bit smaller?
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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by tritosine5G »

Fresnel with rear projection might be the biggest & brightestest, I imagine brightness loss can be compensated entirely. :!: Unfortunately you can't compensate for nothing with LCD...
large screen (i.e. projector) simply gives you a bigger image
I wouldn't draw those parallels with projection, or make the distinction first between front and rear projection. It can do stupid bright ~ 30" and brightness has its use.
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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by cybereality »

The lens is slightly smaller than my 22" screen but because of the magnification it works perfect. I certainly want to explore this further.

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by Okta »

tritosine wrote:Fresnel with rear projection might be the biggest & brightestest, I imagine brightness loss can be compensated entirely. :!: Unfortunately you can't compensate for nothing with LCD...
large screen (i.e. projector) simply gives you a bigger image
I wouldn't draw those parallels with projection, or make the distinction first between front and rear projection. It can do stupid bright ~ 30" and brightness has its use.
I think fresnels trick the eye into truly looking through the screen a long way so the brain is fooled into seeing the images as large objects at a more realistic distance rather than little sprites on a screen. Im not even sure a large home projection setup can match this sensation (unless maybe a smaller rear projection setup with a fresnel in front).
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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by slipstream »

I sent Cyber's the lens. The problem is you can tell gamers how good it is until you are blue in the face but no one takes any notice until they witness the effect for themselves.

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by cybereality »

slipstream wrote:The problem is you can tell gamers how good it is until you are blue in the face but no one takes any notice until they witness the effect for themselves.
Its just like 3D. You gotta see it to believe it!

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by Synexious »

So this is like an HMD, but better than any consumer product? Do you think it's better than the Sony Headman or Cinemizer OLED? I've never heard anyone say the peripheral screens didn't increase immersion, but I have wondered about that. I could spend $2100 for 3DVS or $515 for an HD HMD. Now I have this to think about as well. Is a triple 3D fresnel setup possible?

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by Fredz »

Aphradonis wrote:I've never heard anyone say the peripheral screens didn't increase immersion, but I have wondered about that.
Seems to be confirmed by the creator of the LeepVR :
Eric Howlett wrote:The absence of stereo is not a significant loss to the illusion of presence — even when the FOV is only 70 degrees. The wider the field, the greater the illusion of presence — up to that 270° mark. To provide an immersive VR experience, HMDs should show as much of the 270 degree field of view as possible. A large FOV in an orthoscopic rendering provides a greater sense of immersion than stereopsis in a narrow field. So while Videowrap™, as with the Cyberface1™, supports full stereoscopic region beyond what is possible in the real world, the critical factor for Virtual Reality immersion is the FOV.
Source : http://www.leepvr.com/12periphery.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by tritosine5G »

allright who s selling me one

only found these yet:
http://www.maxiaids.com/store/prodList. ... Magnifiers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_yhi_fy-Q0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; wow thats huge
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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by Likay »

Have some tried a scrapyard for used cars? I've seen a few cars with fresnels attached to the rear window. Older overheadprojectors have them too.
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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by slipstream »

I stock them in the UK and can ship worldwide, no probs. I will probably put them on ebay but will take private orders here if required.

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by lnrrgb »

Some older, big screen projection TV's, can usually be had for the cost of hauling them away from the current owner. Some models have huge lenses, and are well worth even a few dollars they sometimes ask.

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by tritosine5G »

Slipstream , I'm writing you, I can do local pickup in UK if you have really large lense, do you have really large lense? 40" + ?
Some older, big screen projection TV's, can usually be had for the cost of hauling them away from the current owner. Some models have huge lenses, and are well worth even a few dollars they sometimes ask.
yeah, but don't buy the CRT ones (to dismantle), those screens are inherently compensated because of the 3x electron guns / color shift.
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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by slipstream »

I only have lenses for up to 24 inch monitors.

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by ERP »

cybereality wrote:
slipstream wrote:The problem is you can tell gamers how good it is until you are blue in the face but no one takes any notice until they witness the effect for themselves.
Its just like 3D. You gotta see it to believe it!
I was just reading through the Leep site, and there Eric Howlett states that FOV is far more important to immersion than stereo. One of the papers even states that on one of their systems which was monoscopic people refused to believe that the image wasn't 3D.

This largely correlates to what I've observed with surround systems and I can imagine since the Fresnel lets you fill both vertical and horizontal FOV that it could be even more immersive.

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by Fredz »

Yep, that's the quote I've posted 6 messages above.

I also read something about a VR research project (can't remember which) when some researchers forgot to activate the 3D and some of them didn't notice at all and didn't believe it when told so.

I'd say a large FOV is the must for immersiveness, but S3D is more "true-to-life" since it gives a better appreciation of distances. It's also very helpful when dealing with moving objects like we can experiment in real life (tried to play tennis with one eye closed ?), so the usefulness and added realism of S3D largely depend on the context.

The best thing would be to have both for sure, I just hope it will become mainstream again...

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by cybereality »

ERP wrote:I was just reading through the Leep site, and there Eric Howlett states that FOV is far more important to immersion than stereo.
Yes, I read that same article. You know, there may be some truth there. I've been to some planetarium shows where they have a movie playing that completely fills my field of view, and that can be pretty immersive. It still doesn't look real, as in real-life, because there is no stereoscopy. But I felt immersed in a convincing 2D world. But for true virtual reality we obviously need both.
ERP wrote:One of the papers even states that on one of their systems which was monoscopic people refused to believe that the image wasn't 3D.
Have you ever heard of synoptic vision? Basically people can be "tricked" into thinking they are seeing in 3D with monoscopic material:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... aches.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

@Frez: I posted this at the same time you posted, but we seem to be saying the same thing.

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by slipstream »

Not sure if anyone has experienced triple display's in 3DS (Nvidia 3D surround) and fresnel's? That is as close as I have come to total immersion. Not only does it provide a wrap-around solution but also seamless, that is no bezel issue. The monitors have to be placed with a gap of approx 6-8 inches apart, to allow for the magnification, so with 3 X 24 inch 3D monitors you need quite alot of desktop space. The Nvidia surround driver allow's for bezel allignment too.

I am hoping a friend of mine can build a prototype cabinet to house 3 lenses. I will keep you up-dated.

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by tritosine5G »

slipstream wrote: I am hoping a friend of mine can build a prototype cabinet to house 3 lenses. I will keep you up-dated.
Sounds like good use for a room worth of CRT's . Please pm me I want a pair so far!
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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by cybereality »

slipstream wrote:Not sure if anyone has experienced triple display's in 3DS (Nvidia 3D surround) and fresnel's? That is as close as I have come to total immersion.
That sounds pretty cool. I mean, even with 1 monitor its pretty immersive so 3 monitors would be sick! It would sure take up a lot of room though.

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by europanorama »

There was once a german company selling their invention a curved field mirror to enlarge small laptop-screens. its a pity i didnt have the money to buy it-1100 DEM. It cannot be found on the net but i will dig out the product name/prospectus. I think it was megascreen. It was a good idea for locations with narrow space.
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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by slipstream »

What is DEM?

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by tritosine5G »

Deutsche Mark , you know, it was the preferred money in large parts of the world before EUR ;)

( I don't have my CRT yet, take your time )
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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by Fredz »

DEM was only used in Germany, which is barely a large part of the world (1,18% of the population).

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by Likay »

I'm more familiar with dm instead of dem but whatever...
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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by tritosine5G »

Fredz wrote:DEM was only used in Germany, which is barely a large part of the world (1,18% of the population).
haha you'r WRONG! :lol:
During this period, Montenegro rejected the dinar and adopted the Deutsche Mark (now replaced by the euro) as its official currency. As 1999 began, the damage control operation had succeeded in returning the exchange rate to reasonable levels. However, it was not until 2002, after intense macroeconomic reform measures, that the dinar became convertible--a first since the Bretton Woods Agreements laid out the post-World War II international exchange rate regime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of ... Montenegro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
was always preferred over Austrian Schilling or Dollar here in HUN too.
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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by slipstream »

I lived in West Berlin for seven jahren. It's DM not DEM.

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by cybereality »

@slipstream: Do you know if there are frensel lenses that would work with triple screen 32" monitors? Is that too big?

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Re: Fresnel lens wow factor with 3DS

Post by slipstream »

I will enquire for you.

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