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LuckyDog
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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by LuckyDog »

geekmaster wrote:What else can remove a film of hot-melt glue (EVA) from the display surface after removing the digitizer glass?
I've taken apart several different mobile phones, and IME the digitizer has always been hot glued to the lcd's outer casing. Never have I seen the glue on or even touching the actual lcd display. The lcds have also been glued to the same outer casing as the digitizer. I haven't taken one apart yet, but perhaps this is the case with the N7? I have the older N7, perhaps I will take mine apart and take a look.

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Raptor5150 »

LuckyDog wrote:
geekmaster wrote:What else can remove a film of hot-melt glue (EVA) from the display surface after removing the digitizer glass?
I've taken apart several different mobile phones, and IME the digitizer has always been hot glued to the lcd's outer casing. Never have I seen the glue on or even touching the actual lcd display. The lcds have also been glued to the same outer casing as the digitizer. I haven't taken one apart yet, but perhaps this is the case with the N7? I have the older N7, perhaps I will take mine apart and take a look.

Ifixit says to use a heatgun to remove the glue from the display so I guess thats the easiest way to do it.

and the older N7 as far as I know had the LCD fused to the glass (thank god this isnt the case or we would be screwed) but this time around its just glued which makes it easier to remove from the front.

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by geekmaster »

I suspect it is hot-melt eva because the corner of my LCD is exposed (about a dozen pixels) where the cover class crumbled to dust. The exposed glue feels like hotmelt (EVA) glue, which is available in sheets for use in weatherproofing solar cell arrays. It is very clear. I suspect the N7 may use the same adhesive as solar arrays...

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by LuckyDog »

Has anyone seen this display?

http://audioproducts.com.au/ProductInfo ... TT-MONITOR

I'm not sure how much it is but they claim this will do 1920x1200 and it also takes an hdmi input.

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Flim »

That looks to upscale to the high res... Native is 1024x600

I have my nexus 7x2 laying in front of me now, but waiting for a couple of days to see if any screen info comes out.
Last edited by Flim on Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by geekmaster »

I just played with a new N7 at BestBuy. I think much of the weight is the battery and casing. Moving the battery off the HMD should help a lot. The touchscreen glass can't be all that heavy, so it may be worth trying it with the digitizer and glass still attached. Insignificant compared to the rest of the HMD enclosure I think, so not worth removing, perhaps...

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by LuckyDog »

geekmaster wrote:I just played with a new N7 at BestBuy. I think much of the weight is the battery and casing. Moving the battery off the HMD should help a lot. The touchscreen glass can't be all that heavy, so it may be worth trying it with the digitizer and glass still attached. Insignificant compared to the rest of the HMD enclosure I think, so not worth removing, perhaps...
It wouldn't work. The digitizer is much larger than the lcd screen. It won't fit inside the Rift enclosure. The lcd itself (if it's like any other phone I've taken apart) should be sandwiched between the digitizer and a backplate.

Say, for instance, the digitizer doesn't extend past the lcd screen. You would still have to deal with the fact that the screen would be too thick to fit inside the Rift. Not to mention the fact that there is a backplate.

I would much rather prefer to try and take an N7 apart and separate the LCD from the digitizer. Heat up the edges with a blow dryer, and try to separate them with an exacto knife or something.

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Flim »

Even if I pull out the panel, the cable is different and if it dual lvds then we need a new driver board. It would be awesome if it were plug in play, I just don't think it will be that easy!

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by superbike81 »

I'd love to have an upgraded screen, but this stuff is way over my head. Hopefully some of you can figure something out for the rest of us.

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Raptor5150 »

Flim wrote:Even if I pull out the panel, the cable is different and if it dual lvds then we need a new driver board. It would be awesome if it were plug in play, I just don't think it will be that easy!

We will get through it were still waiting for tomorrow when Zach gets his N7 hes more willing to tear that Nexus up!

So no fret we will use his as the testing model for sure.

You should start looking for driver/controller boards once we see if it is indeed LVDS.

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Which stereoscopic 3D solution do you primarily use?: Head Mounted Display (HMD)

Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by goodl »

Might I make a suggestion, could the leading lights in this thread get together and open a hardware funds donation account, I'd certainly be glad to help out financially as I'm sure would many others, should it be handled correctly. We need to get the hardware in the hands of the most capable and time rich/cash poor for everyone to benefit.

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by LuckyDog »

If it is indeed LVDS, here is a good LVDS controller board.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5451-DVI-LCD-Co ... vi-content

Here are the specs:

http://njytouch12.en.ec21.com/Compatibl ... 72631.html

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Raptor5150 »

LuckyDog wrote:If it is indeed LVDS, here is a good LVDS controller board.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5451-DVI-LCD-Co ... vi-content

Here are the specs:

http://njytouch12.en.ec21.com/Compatibl ... 72631.html

Nice find :D Ill have to get a dvi to hdmi adapter unless you can find me one that supports hdmi only as my laptop only has hdmi and vga.. so I would want to go the hdmi route.
Last edited by Raptor5150 on Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by geekmaster »

Raptor5150 wrote:Nice find :D Ill have to get a dvi to hdmi adapter unless you can find me one that supports hdmi only as my laptop only has hdmi and vga.. so I would want to go the hdmi route.
The DVI/HDMI adapter that comes with the Rift should work. It can convert either direction.

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Raptor5150 »

geekmaster wrote:
Raptor5150 wrote:Nice find :D Ill have to get a dvi to hdmi adapter unless you can find me one that supports hdmi only as my laptop only has hdmi and vga.. so I would want to go the hdmi route.
The DVI/HDMI adapter that comes with the Rift should work. It can convert either direction.
Oh yeah I forgot about that.. I think its still included in the 1.1 revision.. Gotta go look.
also..

Heads up guys I contacted JDI by inquiry form as well so if i hear anything back you guys will be first to know.

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Flim »

I thought we would have some news today...?

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Raptor5150 »

Flim wrote:I thought we would have some news today...?
I pm'd zach about it.. Nothing yet.


Edit: Just in from JDI... "We are not able to disclose confidential information about
custom products. In general, interface for mobile phone is
MIPI."

Cause you know a connector type is confidential info :evil: But since its not a mobile phone and its a tablet heres hoping they made a change. Looks like we're on our own boys.

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by 3dvison »

What about an authorized repair center ? If someone was to drop one of these on its head, where do they get it fixed ? And could that repair place tell us what type of connector it is ?

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by KBK »

Raptor5150 wrote:
Flim wrote:I thought we would have some news today...?
I pm'd zach about it.. Nothing yet.


Edit: Just in from JDI... "We are not able to disclose confidential information about
custom products. In general, interface for mobile phone is
MIPI."

Cause you know a connector type is confidential info :evil: But since its not a mobile phone and its a tablet heres hoping they made a change. Looks like we're on our own boys.

You have to understand what they just said.

they said they cannot release confidential information about custom products.

However, the information on this panel IS in the public domain, for a fee, of about $220. Buy one and take it apart.

At the general release point of the unit, it went public and all information went public.

However, JDI is bound by it's confidentiality agreements, and can say nothing. Even though the information is in the public domain.

If you read closely, they told you anyway.. but... never really told you anything. They told you without breaching their confidentiality agreements.

Right here:
"In general, interface for mobile phone is
MIPI."
If they did not want to tell you anything, they never would have said that. No point. Just say to you: "sorry, confidentiality, bye."

Instead, they added in the last bit. Which means they told you information that is in the public domain but they are forbidden by agreements to speak on.
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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Flim »

So , I'm assuming this is not a mobile phone and uses lvds?

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by KBK »

IMO and IME when dealing with confidentiality agreements that are still in place, even when the information is in the public domain, JDI has spilled the goods. (millions of the units are out there, one can be taken apart and this can be ascertained in minutes, OK?) The only reason I don't know or any knowledgeable tech here does not know, is that we have not directly taken one apart, ourselves. We'd know in a few minutes, if we did.

If you want full confirmation of that (JDI indirectly saying that the panel is MIPI in a way that is not in violation of their agreements), you would have to witness the exact wording of the communication sent to them in the form of a request.

From the wording that I see, they've given up the goods. That this panel is a MIPI panel.
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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by zacherynuk »

I've been playing with my N7.2 for a day now... it's faster and lighter than I was expecting... I really like it and don't want to hurt it too much!

As such, I am awaiting delivery of some proper plastic tools, as even a cursory prod twist with my metal ones has marked the plastic - it's mega soft and malleable!

I have been scouring the net for more info, but so far none; I think the pinout will really be needed ... however, I have a plan...

Ozone may have a better idea, but how hard would it be mimic the 5MP camera input? http://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/ig ... Dpw4.large
http://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/ig ... EsqC.large

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Raptor5150 »

Got an answer from asus but it should be taken with a grain of salt since the way its worded.

"Thank you for contacting ASUS Customer Service.
My name is Emma and it is my pleasure to help you with your problem.

I got their reply.
The answer should be MIPI."

:( even if it is true.. there is still hope as ive found diagrams on MIPI to dual channel LVDS which I think if we could find it we could use that bridge and then go to lvds to hdmi. I mean it should work..

diagram: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/sllseb9c/sllseb9c.pdf

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by zacherynuk »

I believe these are the people to chase: http://www.taiwantrade.com.tw/MAIN/Comp ... m=12650400

"We have total solution for CPU/RGB/LVDS/HDMI Converter to MIPI 1/2/3/4 Lane Max. Data rate 1Gbps per Lane and resolution up to WUXGA" - Which I think has been on the dev forums too. I dropped them an email in June when google alerts spotted it.

I am getting dejavu! - I spent a year chasing ghosts trying to make other peoples HMD's better: http://www.wastedspace.co.uk/cms/2011/0 ... t-part-13/ !!!

With no solid info breaking more equipment seems silly... if only things like idisplay were quick enough.... hohum

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Inscothen »

Asus says it should be MIPI, JDI didn't say it was but that in general MIPI is used. Maybe you 7" modders should contact Ozone, or rozsnyo to get a HDMI>>MIPI circuit made. Ozone did mention in the DIY Rift thread that Daniel(I assume from rozsnyo) was getting a 7" display to test out.

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Raptor5150 »

Inscothen wrote:Asus says it should be MIPI, JDI didn't say it was but that in general MIPI is used. Maybe you 7" modders should contact Ozone, or rozsnyo to get a HDMI>>MIPI circuit made. Ozone did mention in the DIY Rift thread that Daniel(I assume from rozsnyo) was getting a 7" display to test out.

Whats the price on one of those?

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Inscothen »

I don't know. Rozsnyo has their eDP iPad 3 display hack for $99 I think it was, so their circuit(if they release one) might be similarly priced. There's a company called Chalkboard Electronics that has a $35 HDMI>>LVDS circuit. The HDMI>>MIPI circuit would probably be very similar. I can't see a circuit costing over $100. If made in a large enough quantity the price might drop down to $35-40 depending on who makes it. If you design/made our own custom circuit it'd probably cost you around $30.

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Flim »

I would say if it is mipi... we should get the 5.5 1080 working like Oculus...


I heard valve was working on or did get the 1080 oled screen working..

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by MSat »

Assuming someone will develop a ?->MIPI board, we just need someone with some fast logic probes/scope who should be able to find the pinout of the panel fairly easily. Find the clock diff pair, and play with the remaining data pairs (probably 3) until the image shows up properly.

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by yunti »

Flim wrote:I would say if it is mipi... we should get the 5.5 1080 working like Oculus...


I heard valve was working on or did get the 1080 oled screen working..
I agree this will probably have the added benefit of working a lot more easily with the SDK.

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Inscothen »

If anyone switches the screen, we should probably have a way to change the stored stereo/warp parameters so we can use a devkit hack with Rift games.

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Flim »

A while back the size of screen didn't really make sense to me, but after months of testing and switching lenses... It's apparent that a smaller screen for the 1.5 inch lenses is vital if you want to take advantage of the available pixels. I'm assuming that is why folks are seeing a big difference in the 1080p proto.

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by QUAKE »

Carmack said that valve has an S4 screen working at 90 hz, did anyone ask Ludwig what controller boards they're using?

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by remosito »

QUAKE wrote:Carmack said that valve has an S4 screen working at 90 hz, did anyone ask Ludwig what controller boards they're using?

very, very good question, especially in view of upcoming Note 3 which will be HD Amoled as well at ~6 inches....

or for dual display S4 DIY HMDs
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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Peva3 »

remosito wrote:
QUAKE wrote:Carmack said that valve has an S4 screen working at 90 hz, did anyone ask Ludwig what controller boards they're using?

very, very good question, especially in view of upcoming Note 3 which will be HD Amoled as well at ~6 inches....

or for dual display S4 DIY HMDs
Are there many controllers that natively combine two display inputs (Not sure how most people are setting up dual HMDs).

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by remosito »

Peva3 wrote:
remosito wrote:
QUAKE wrote:Carmack said that valve has an S4 screen working at 90 hz, did anyone ask Ludwig what controller boards they're using?

very, very good question, especially in view of upcoming Note 3 which will be HD Amoled as well at ~6 inches....

or for dual display S4 DIY HMDs
Are there many controllers that natively combine two display inputs (Not sure how most people are setting up dual HMDs).
afaik none... just use two controllers. One per display....
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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by KBK »

Geometric alignment of images in all axis, with dual panels, is just the START of how a HMD needs to be correct.

Just optics alone, binoculars, those are nightmarishly difficult.

Imagine what happens when it is a double set of panels in front if said optics.

It gets messy.

You also need complex optics. Optics which hit the wall of refractive limits, when in this application.

Note that your eyeballs are ROUND, spherical. Nature understood that if square and flat was functional, then your eyeballs would be of that nature. Note that they are not.

Trying to go from a flat panel to a round moving optical package (your eyeball), then into an aligned pair of said round complex optical devices (your eyeballs), is a very complex technical task.

There are only a few ways it can be done. Most of those are covered in the form of patents, and some of those patents might be on the verge of expiring, or have expired.

Regardless, they are bulky, complex and expensive, at a minimum.

No set of two eyeballs are the same.... so no single solution works for everyone. (within the scope of being 'perfected'-for the individual)
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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by Peva3 »

remosito wrote: afaik none... just use two controllers. One per display....
Hmm... I'm wondering if I could make use of my old Triplehead2go. I think it will still work if I only plug in two monitors, then it would combine both monitors into one...

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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by KBK »

so far, the only package I am aware of that does a clean transfer from LVDS or HDMI, to MIPI format, terminates at 1080P.

That is the Toshiba chip.

Everything else is not really functional. After that you get to programmable arrays, which can introduce lag or latency. complex custom programmed chips with custom i/o circuitry, etc.

Only the Toshiba chip is capable and it terminates at an addressable map/range of 1080p, from reading their literature.

It has a bit bandwidth of 165mhz, which is probably where the number of valve achieving 90hz with a 1080p S4 panel is coming from.

165mhz/(1920x1080), gets us to 79hz. Which means it can probably be 'pushed' just a bit harder (just like the rift hardware being pushed to about 75hz, from it's stated limit of 60hz) maybe to 90hz. Thus valve makes it to 90hz with an s4 panel. If the Toshiba chipset paperwork was checked closely, it might say that the limit is 75hz at 1080p.

This is generally tied to the limits of the given integrated video amplifiers for the digital channel signals (and their associated internal filters), and not specifically the given digital chip proper. Thus the percentage increase for either hardware set is about the same. A predictable headroom limit set primarily by the integrated signal I/O amplifiers.
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Re: Nexus 7 2nd Gen 1920x1200. Possible drop-in replacement?

Post by KBK »

http://www.q-vio.com/lvds.html

This company is not responding to either emails or phone calls.

This is probably due to the fact that they are, by appearance of the boards, using custom programmable chips, which introduces latency, which means it is probably unusable for Rift or HMD use. even if their board was finished, it would probably introduce too much latency.

The way to find out, is to buy one of their lower rez boards and give it a shot.

The reality is that we DON'T need HDMI to MIPI conversion, we need LVDS to MIPI conversion, which may be a more simplistic and 'fast' (low latency) task.

I've no idea what exactly a LVDS signal package is and then I've no idea exactly what a MIPI video signal package is. Thus I've no idea of the complexities of conversion. IF...we are talking about format conversion of a digital signal then this is relatively straightforward and it should be possible to do so in a fairly 'quick'n'dirty' programmable array of some sort.

This is probably the only viable path or street to try and run down, until someone creates a 1200p HDMI/DVI to MIPI chip. Which does not happen overnight. That might take a year or more. Unless someone is 'on it' as a market necessity that they see a need for, in an emergent market, about a year ago, then this is not likely to happen for a year, if someone was to begin right now.

Thus, you are down to LVDS to MIPI on a custom programmable chip. It's a case of brute force and ignorance being the only viable path at this time.

Every possible resolution format you can imagine is available for LVDS output, at low latency..which is the real critical part. The conditional which must be present, low latency. Micro or small high rez high PPI panels are solely in the realm of MIPI in their signal handling, so you need low latency LVDS to MIPI conversion. One chip, custom, conversion, and that's it. That is the target area.

Unless someone shows up with a +WXGA HDMI/DVI input to MIPI output low latency chip in the next few months (very slim to non-existent odds). Outside of Rift use, the market has zero need for such a chip, so no one would have predicted a need to build it.
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