Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

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Sadhu
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Sadhu »

This new sword fighting game project on kickstarter seems like a perfect fit for vr experience. They will have Razer Hydra support. I guess adding head tracking shouldn't be a big problem.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/260688528/clang

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by brantlew »

The head tracking discussion is getting a little off topic so I moved it to another thread

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=15040

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by cybereality »

Sadhu wrote:This new sword fighting game project on kickstarter seems like a perfect fit for vr experience. They will have Razer Hydra support. I guess adding head tracking shouldn't be a big problem.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/260688528/clang
Wow! Thanks so much for the link, I backed it. Can't believe this: Neal Stephenson doing a motion-controlled sword-fighting game!?!?!? This really is the second-coming of VR!!!!

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Johnny-Mnemonic »

Oh yeah, this is sweet! :woot
Oculus Rift, Vuzix Wrap 920 AR!, Vuzix VR920, Liquid Image MRG 2.2, Razer Hydra, P5 Glove, Microsoft Kinect, TrackIR5, 2 x Hillcrest Labs Freespace tracker, Fujifilm finepix real 3d w3, GeForce 9800GT 1Gb, GeForce GT 430 1Gb, DELL XPS 17 l702x with GeForce 555 GT 3Gb, and good-old VFX1 setup

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Nick3DvB »

brantlew wrote:The head tracking discussion is getting a little off topic so I moved it to another thread

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=15040
Thanks for your input guys, sorry to go off-topic, tracking is obviously a huge area of research in itself, I’m sure many here will be working of there own ingenious solutions, but in a way that is part of the problem! We are inclined to treat it as a completely separate problem and so produce fragmented solutions tailored to our own needs. Something like the LpTracker6D or a simplified optical DOF6 system is certainly something to think about for the Rev.2 kit, but I’m more interested in the limitations of the bundled Hillcrest package that will be supplied for use with Doom 3 BFG (and hopefully Quake4 & Prey at some point!) because this is the sensor most people will be using, and it could define the experience in terms of the wider public.

I’m sure that if John could have implemented perfect parallax simulation he would have done it, but I’m not clear if this is purely a sensor limitation or other modelling issues specific to Doom3? With the exception of Doom 3 most games will be stuck with basic tethered “mouse look” control model, so I think it’s important to have a range of carefully designed tech demos to showcase the other possibilities, to try and de-couple “control” from the "optical effects" produced by subtle head-movement, and to do this using the bundled sensor package if at all possible. Without knowledge of it’s limitations, a couple of possible examples:

- Someone viewing a reflective object from a foot or so away (something like an intricate silver candlestick) would see large changes in the movement of specula highlights over its surface etc, or maybe just mod that excellent RTHDRIBL demo!

- Someone standing on top of a very tall building, a densely packed urban area bellow, small changes in head position (only) are amplified to produce large changes at ground level (in terms of occlusion etc). Maybe something being viewed through a few layers of Half Life 2 style chain-link fencing?

They’re not great so if anyone can think of a better way to demo these types of effects then I be really interested to hear it. If the Hillcrest sensor really isn’t up the job then we should still explore other options, I was hoping the Wiimote cam would do the trick, it seems sensitive enough to small strafing movements in the Jonny Lee demo, and I was intending to use a wii-zapper as a controller with Doom 3 anyway, so having a second one as a camera with a few LEDs / markers would be my preferred option, but the PS3 cam / gun combo looks really interesting to.

Please reply in the split thread on this subject, thanks. 8-)
Nick3DvB wrote:how does the current system cope with SBS video?
On my other question regarding video, personally I have never experienced 3D video on a HMD, the "floating TV" analogy does not apply to the RIFT and this content was obviously not intended to be viewed on such a high FOV HMD, any thoughts on this? Maybe Peter Wimmer could add a dedicated output mode to Stereoscopic Player? Until then, and assuming we can correct the optical distortion with an MPC post-processing shader, or maybe a AVISynth script, and make any other adjustments like aspect-ratio / cropping using the standard media player controls, what other issues might we encounter?

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by brantlew »

@Nick3DvB: Beyond the technical aspects of viewing video, I think the Rift would not generally be a good platform for video content. The FOV is just too big - like sitting in the front row at the theater except worse because you can't even move your head to look at other parts of the screen. Video would need to be shot and framed specifically so that all the action was contained within a tiny central part of the screen. Probably some iMax and Omni-Max movies are shot this way and would look great but most content would be overwhelming and incomprehensible. :shock:

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Nick3DvB »

That's exactly what I was worried about, but it might be interesting to try and shoot some content specifically designed for the RIFT, to see what works. For regular 3D films I was hoping we could just scale them down into a smaller centralized window to achieve a similar "floating TV" experience to the Sony HMD, I'd like to try it but we would probably want to wait for a much higher resolution panel.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by cadcoke5 »

I had always wondered how comfortable it would be looking at a "floating TV" if that TV would move around with any head movement. The Rift could theoretically have the ability to hold the TV stationary if it had head tracking.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Alkapwn »

Can anyone elaborate a bit more on what else will be needed besides the Kickstarter Rift package?

I really want to get in on this, but also want to make sure that I'm able to run it once I do get it.

Sorry, I'm still a bit new as to how this gear all interfaces together.

Thanks.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by MSat »

@Alkapwn (lol.. I just got your name after typing it)

From my understanding, it depends on the kit you opt for. The top of the line should include everything you need (the HMD, head tracker, and a copy of DooM3: BFG) except for a computer with DVI/HDMI out - not sure if it will support VGA. The other option would be just the HMD, leaving it up to you to get your own head tracker if you want it.

Hopefully the optional head tracker will already include the firmware John Carmack demo'd. Though I imagine it would be as simple as running a program to do it yourself.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PalmerTech »

Alkapwn wrote:Once I get a Kickstarter kit, with headtracker and a copy of Doom 3, is there anything else that I would need computer wise to be able to use this?
If your computer was made in the last few years, you should have no problems. :) All you need is a DVI or HDMI port on your graphics card and a USB 2.0 input for the tracker.

As for using the Rift for video content... Well, if you scale it down to the right aspect ratio, you lose a ton of resolution. If you crop the video, you end up with a really small camera FOV spread over a huge visual FOV. I would probably avoid it. :P

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

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cadcoke5 wrote:I had always wondered how comfortable it would be looking at a "floating TV" if that TV would move around with any head movement. The Rift could theoretically have the ability to hold the TV stationary if it had head tracking.

Joe Dunfee
It is quite annoying and you lose focus the instant the movement of your head is too big.
(I have a HMD-t1) It is a great device to hook up to a ps3 and play games in 3d while lying in your bed.
If only the disorientation wasn't a kicker when you stop gaming :P


Palmertech, Already Ideas what sort of display tech (res and screentype) you want to use in your next version of the rift?
I personally like the 720p oled displays in my sony hmd. They are really gorgeous. Also the quick switching that they are capable of is really great so thats great for gaming. (but 720p is already a bit low for me) Gimme 4k res for each eye or something. And a supercomputer to get it to run all my games with all the effects turned on :P)

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PalmerTech »

Torchedini wrote:Palmertech, Already Ideas what sort of display tech (res and screentype) you want to use in your next version of the rift?
I personally like the 720p oled displays in my sony hmd. They are really gorgeous. Also the quick switching that they are capable of is really great so thats great for gaming. (but 720p is already a bit low for me) Gimme 4k res for each eye or something. And a supercomputer to get it to run all my games with all the effects turned on :P)
Looking at 6.1" Toshiba displays, 2560x1600 IPS panels. Would be really great. :) The HMZ-T1 OLED panels have a fast switching time, but that is marred by the pretty high latency, about 50ms.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PalmerTech »

Just posted this to this funding discussion thread, head there if you want to give input: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 430#p74430

PalmerTech wrote:After reading the feedback here, doing a ton of research on my own, and talking to of the other people helping me with the project, here is what I think I am going to do:

Stage 1: Take a limited number of pre-Kickstarter orders from members on the forum

This will let me bypass the Kickstarter fees on the first couple units, which gives me more money to put towards the project. These orders will be for the HMD only, not any of the accessories (Motion tracker, wireless video link, battery pack, long/thin cables, etc). The reason for this is that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that even if the Kickstarter fails, I know I can deliver at least those HMDs. If the Kickstarter is successful, then all those extra accessories will be available on the Oculus website, probably at a slightly reduced price for all the early-early adopters. These units will have some kind of unique marking laser cut into them to indicate your super-cool status. :lol: I will save some of these funds for the main batch, and use some of them to order pre-production parts to make a few prototypes for people who can get the Rift even more attention by integrating it with their projects.

Stage 2: Take the project to Kickstarter

This fulfills Carmack's promise in the interviews that it would go to Kickstarter, and hopefully gets it mass exposure (If not adoption). There will be several different bundles containing the different extras, and a few smaller rewards that are cheap/free to deliver for people who just want to show support for the project. I plan on running it for 60 days, and while I know that is long for a Kickstarter, there is a reason: QuakeCon. It has a lot of attendees who would be interested in the Rift, and most of them are already going to buy Doom 3 BFG! A 60 day project would put the end of the Kickstarter right around QuakeCon, the perfect time for a big push. Yeah, the fees are a bitch, but the advantages are worth the financial hit; A sentiment that anyone else with a significant other understands, eh? ;)

Stage 3: Order all the parts, wait for the truckloads of components to arrive, and then right to work!

If it is only 100 units, then I will be able to do all the work myself. If it gets more attention than expected, I have some friends who would be willing to help; We will order a few pizzas and cases of Mt. Dew, run movies on my projector, and test, assemble, and package all the kits. Testing is going to take the longest, but I do not want to ship out anything with faults. If a panel has even one dead pixel, it will not be going in the kit.

Stage 4: Shipping, support, community building

Pretty self explanatory. I am not going to be giving much in the way of after-sale support, but any problems that are my fault will obviously be taken care of. From there, the community will have a great HMD to use in their projects, and I will hopefully have some new tools and machines that I can use to work on future upgrades or products. :)

Let me know what you guys think, going to crosspost this to the main Rift thread. If nobody has any really great ideas or changes, pre-Kickstarter orders will start tomorrow and run through Friday.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by BrockSamson »

I'm having some trouble finding the blue prints for the Rift, this might be cause its not out yet but I just have some technical questions about dimensions and power usage etc. Any link, or even just the info that they arn't out to the public yet would be appreciated.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PalmerTech »

BrockSamson wrote:I'm having some trouble finding the blue prints for the Rift, this might be cause its not out yet but I just have some technical questions about dimensions and power usage etc. Any link, or even just the info that they arn't out to the public yet would be appreciated.
It is because they are not finalized, all the plans and such will be available at some point during the Kickstarter project when the design is locked down.

The current prototype is about 7" wide, 5" tall, and 3" deep. The weight, not including cables, is about 0.6lbs. Power consumption is about 600ma at 5v, it has an onboard regulator that can handle up to 12v.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by BrockSamson »

Awesomely quick reply, very excited to begin tinkering, a heart felt thanks for taking care on the lions share of the tech work and making the rift available to us!

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by aurelius »

I've been kinda wondering lately. It's very apparent that this initial release of the rift is gonna be aimed more towards the hacker/homebrew community than average consumer or pc users in order to try to get the product into capable hands that have the skills to get the ball rolling. So I'm wondering if there's a danger of the product falling into the hands of a majority crowd that have no experience coding or programing or whatever. you know, someone like me (who is very, very, VERY interested in this doohickey. Yes. My money will most likely be flying your way). Wouldn't something like that slow down the progress of this thing?

Another thing, Since I first heard about the oculus rift 3 days ago, I've been scouring the intertubes for any and all information about it and I could've of sworn I read some mention about a group buy for higher quality displays when they become available. From what I know, palmer and carmack are holding out for those Toshiba displays. If a group buy is indeed what will happen, is that something that will be done through kickstarter? Or would that be independent from it? I honestly don't know why I'm so hung up on the resolution of the thing. I guess since I've never experienced something like this, I just don't really know what to expect and I'm getting cold feet.

Either way, I'm rooting for you palmer/carmack. Definitely throwing my support behind this. I'm sure alot of others feel the same.

P.S. Thanks for keeping the target price at $500. For a broke college student like me, that's a godsend. definitely got to thrown in a little extra to help you afford that pizza.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by WiredEarp »

With the low resolution and high FOV, not to mention requiring warping, I don't think the average person will care for a Rift over a ST1080 or a HMZ. However, that could change once Doom 3 BFG is released since it supports it. However, I suspect the majority of non enthusiasts will look at specs like resolution first, rather than FOV. Good concern however.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PalmerTech »

aurelius wrote:I've been kinda wondering lately. It's very apparent that this initial release of the rift is gonna be aimed more towards the hacker/homebrew community than average consumer or pc users in order to try to get the product into capable hands that have the skills to get the ball rolling. So I'm wondering if there's a danger of the product falling into the hands of a majority crowd that have no experience coding or programing or whatever. you know, someone like me (who is very, very, VERY interested in this doohickey. Yes. My money will most likely be flying your way). Wouldn't something like that slow down the progress of this thing?

Another thing, Since I first heard about the oculus rift 3 days ago, I've been scouring the intertubes for any and all information about it and I could've of sworn I read some mention about a group buy for higher quality displays when they become available. From what I know, palmer and carmack are holding out for those Toshiba displays. If a group buy is indeed what will happen, is that something that will be done through kickstarter? Or would that be independent from it? I honestly don't know why I'm so hung up on the resolution of the thing. I guess since I've never experienced something like this, I just don't really know what to expect and I'm getting cold feet.

Either way, I'm rooting for you palmer/carmack. Definitely throwing my support behind this. I'm sure alot of others feel the same.

P.S. Thanks for keeping the target price at $500. For a broke college student like me, that's a godsend. definitely got to thrown in a little extra to help you afford that pizza.
I plan on warning people on the Kickstarter page very clearly, along the lines of "If you just want to play games using a screen on your face, don't buy this! Get an ST1080 or an HMZ-T1, you will be much happier!", if they still decide to go for it, well, they should know what they are getting into. I don't think it will slow down progress as long as I can supply enough units to go around.

A group buy for the Toshiba panels would probably be done independently of Kickstarter, since it would be targeted at people who already own a Rift and want to upgrade (Or who have the resources and skills to laser cut their own parts from the freely available templates). There are only a few of those Toshiba panels in the world at the moment, though, and the very earliest I can imagine seeing them on the market would be Q2/Q3 2013.

Glad you appreciate the price! :) I am lucky that I don't have to pay salaries, a lease, and all those other expenses that come along with running a "real" company, makes things easier.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PalmerTech »

A fun note to make:

I have been talking to tons of suppliers for this panel, and it looks like it hit end-of-life status quite some time ago. Not being made anymore, I might have to tap the stocks of multiple suppliers if more than 500 or 600 people sign up.

There is a plenty of stock for the version of the panel that has a touchscreen attached, but that is a problem for an HMD. I have ordered a sample unit to see how hard it is to remove the touch panel, hopefully it is not the kind that attaches using adhesive.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by BillRoeske »

Have you yet hit the backwards situation of the touch-enabled version being cheaper due to surplus stock? ;)

In all seriousness, though, that's a good thing to at least know about before firing up the Kickstarter. You can set limits on supply, if you need to.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PalmerTech »

BillRoeske wrote:Have you yet hit the backwards situation of the touch-enabled version being cheaper due to surplus stock? ;)

In all seriousness, though, that's a good thing to at least know about before firing up the Kickstarter. You can set limits on supply, if you need to.
Yes, I have! :lol: It looks like the backlight and touch screen ribbon might be integrated, hopefully that can be fixed.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by davidgutierrezpalma »

Using a touch-screen for a HMD is not a bug, it's a feature: that way you can control the VR environment with your eyelashes... :lol:
(just kidding)

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Vaughanabe13 »

I'm a lurker that has drifted in and out of these forums for years. After seeing the reports of Carmack doing the demo at E3, I am super pumped about this project and I will be supporting the Kickstarter for sure. Keep up the good work, Palmer!

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by BillRoeske »

Are weight and power consumption the primary concerns with the touchscreen displays, or is it similar to an active digitizer screen on an old-school Tablet PC where it also clouds the image?

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PalmerTech »

It is mostly weight, every bit matters on an HMD. I won't know how much it clouds the image until after I get my sample unit, but even good touchscreens have the quality degraded at least a little by the touch layer. Another thing for dust to get into, as well.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PalmerTech »

Alrighty, here is the link to the pre-Kickstarter page, it should be safe from random people buried here in the thread. :lol:

Link: http://oculusvr.com/?page_id=55
Password: MTBS3D

I plan on taking about 20 pre-Kickstarter orders, so don't delay! You must call now! :lol:

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Alkapwn »

PalmerTech wrote:Alrighty, here is the link to the pre-Kickstarter page, it should be safe from random people buried here in the thread. :lol:

Link: http://oculusvr.com/?page_id=55
Password: MTBS3D

I plan on taking about 20 pre-Kickstarter orders, so don't delay! You must call now! :lol:
Is Canada ok? I'll be shipping to the States as I live right across Detroit.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by German »

PalmerTech wrote:Alrighty, here is the link to the pre-Kickstarter page, it should be safe from random people buried here in the thread. :lol:
What's the email we are supposed to specify, it's not listed anywhere.

edit: For clarification, Paypal doesn't let you buy a gift certificate for yourself.
Last edited by German on Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by BillRoeske »

Alrighty, here is the link to the pre-Kickstarter page, it should be safe from random people buried here in the thread.
Congrats on reaching another milestone! :D

It's taking a lot of will power to not jump on it, but really I want to devote my effort to help make the Kickstarter number go up. Those things carry momentum. I'm subscribed here and to the newsletter, so hopefully I'll be ready to pounce when it goes live and don't miss out on a tracker/Doom bundle.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PalmerTech »

Alkapwn wrote:Is Canada ok? I'll be shipping to the States as I live right across Detroit.
If you are shipping to Detroit, sure. Paypal does not release the funds until the certificate is redeemed, so it is all the same. :)

German wrote:What's the email we are supposed to specify, it's not listed anywhere.
If you go to the page, enter the password, and then scroll to the bottom, you will see a button. Clicking it should bring up the right page. :)

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by German »

PalmerTech wrote: If you go to the page, enter the password, and then scroll to the bottom, you will see a button. Clicking it should bring up the right page. :)
It does, but Paypal doesn't allow you to buy gift certificates for yourself(sender email = recipient email). It's not the same thing as "Gift Payment".

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PalmerTech »

Hmm, strange, I thought you could buy gift certificates for yourself.

Does it work if you leave the sender email blank? Alternatively, do you have another email address you could use? I will try to figure this out in the meanwhile.

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by rajveer »

Congrats on setting up your first set of payments, must feel good getting this far!

German
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by German »

PalmerTech wrote: Does it work if you leave the sender email blank? Alternatively, do you have another email address you could use? I will try to figure this out in the meanwhile.
Nope, it complains that no Recipient was specified(it emails the gift certificate to the person). I have another email but I am nervous that Paypal is going to think something is fishy since it outright prevents me from putting in my own email.

PalmerTech
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Which stereoscopic 3D solution do you primarily use?: Head Mounted Display (HMD)

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PalmerTech »

I found some information that says you can deliver to yourself if you choose to print it out to yourself, could you try that?

German
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by German »

PalmerTech wrote:I found some information that says you can deliver to yourself if you choose to print it out to yourself, could you try that?
Same issue with printed:
You cannot purchase a Gift Certificate for yourself. Please enter an email address that is not associated with your PayPal account.
I am sure it would work if I put in another email, but another concern is that Paypal will make me open a new account to redeem the gift certificate with the alternate email.

Alkapwn
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Alkapwn »

I'm running into the same issue here. Looks like it does require the recipient's email address. I'm assuming the one linked to the Paypal account so it knows which account to transfer the money to.

PalmerTech
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Posts: 1644
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:06 pm
Which stereoscopic 3D solution do you primarily use?: Head Mounted Display (HMD)

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PalmerTech »

Got it.

Give me a few minutes, might have to change the directions. Silly me, thinking Paypal would make this easy. :roll:

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