Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

[PalmerTech]

Hey guys,

I am making great progress on my HMD kit! All of the hardest stuff (Optics, display panels, and interface hardware) is done, right now I am working on how it actually fits together, and figuring out the best way to make a head mount. It is going to be be out of laser cut sheets of plastic that slide together and fasten with nuts and bolts. The display module is going to be detachable from the optics module, so you will be able to modify, replace, or upgrade your lenses in the future!

The goal is to start a Kickstarter project on June 1st that will end on July 1st, shipping afterwards as soon as possible. I won't make a penny of profit off this project, the goal is to pay for the costs of parts, manufacturing, shipping, and credit card/Kickstarter fees with about $10 left over for a celebratory pizza and beer.

I need help, though!

1) I need something that illustrates the difference between low field of view HMDs and high FOV HMDs, probably some kind of graphic illustrating the difference in apparent screen size. Would probably want to compare the rap 1200VR, the HMZ-T1, and the ST1080. Maybe throw in a few professional HMDs like the SX111 for good measure.

2) Logo/s. I am listing the organization as "Oculus", I plan on using that name on my VR projects from here on out. The HMD itself is tentatively titled "Rift", if you have better ideas, let me know. I based it on the idea that the HMD creates a rift between the real world and the virtual world, though I have to admit that it is pretty silly.

3) Ideas for what I should show off in the Kickstarter video.

4) Ideas for Kickstarter rewards. The obvious one would be a full HMD kit, but I want to have some lesser monetary options for people who just want to show support. Laser cut badges? Some kind of software? On the other end, it seems like it would be a good idea to have some more expensive options that net you stuff like a wireless battery/video pack, or a motion tracker.

5) Anything else I am forgetting!

The help is appreciated! Really excited about this, I think it could be the kind of thing that jumpstarts a bigger VR community, and hopefully shows that there is a big demand for wide FOV, truly immersive displays.

[cybereality]

I can probably whip something up in Photoshop showing the difference in resolution/FOV of different headsets. Maybe something like this ( http://3dvrm.com/hmd_comparison.gif ) but made easier to understand. I have the HMZ-T1, had the 1200VR, and plan to get the ST1080 at release. So I may be one of the few people with experience with all 3 of these consumer HMDs. Could also put some older stuff in the comparison as well (VR920, etc.) just for historical reference. Not much experience with professional gear, but I could base that on specs.

Also, this is a great idea. I hope there are enough people to get it off the ground. I will surely contribute what I can to make this happen.

[SDM]

Need any free CAD work, be glad to help with that, it's a main part of what I do for a living. Also do design work on logos and such (in CAD, but exportable of course to various formats) as part of many projects. Often design parts and such for direct laser/CNC/waterjet manufacturing, or just plans. Typically aircraft or electronics related these days, but am used to working with extreme precision.

Have a (now modded) HMZ, pre-ordered the ST1080 during that first month. Actually already have a basic CAD drawing of relative screen sizes between those two as I wanted a visual representation to compare them myself.

Any way, I am busy these days, not in the greatest health right now, but if I can be of any help, I'll do what I can as quickly as I can.

[pierreye]

Hi Palmer,

My understanding is your unit will output 3D in SBS mode. I'll experiment with Lumagen RadianceMini that if I can sucessfully convert 3D Frame Pack to SBS and do the aspect ratio correction, then I'm in. Want to try out 120 degree FOV in gaming compare to 50 degree FOV. What's the native resolution of the LCD panel and input signal?

[Hornet]

Hi Palmertech,
I am ophthalmologist and Oculus is name of one german company

here: http://www.oculus.de/

what about: " OCULARITY" OCULAR + VIRTUALITY
or " IMMERSITY" IMMERSION + VIRTUALITY

?
But Oculus is nice, only the problem with rights...
I am looking forward to the set...hope it will be not in time of my hollidays.
By Peter

[WiredEarp]

oooh pierreye, that Lumagen thing looks great. How much is that?

[brantlew]

@PalmerTech: Honestly I think you should charge more for these units and consider taking a profit on them. You are one of the few guys in the industry that seems to understand the needs of the VR community, so I think it would benefit everyone here in the long run if you were able to create a viable business out of this. I would consider it an "investment" to pay a little extra up front in hopes of a true commercial Palmer unit in the future. I assume the world-wide market for this type of unit is pretty small, but it is also completely untapped. The first company that comes out with a $1000 HMD with 90+ FOV will monopolize the entire academic VR and gaming market.

PS. I like the name Oculus. A long as they are in separate industries it should not be a problem having a duplicate company name. The bigger problem is web domain names. Always hard to find a good one that's not taken.

[FingerFlinger]

@Palmer If it's ~$500 I will instantly buy one, but I agree with brantlew that you should consider making a go of this as a "real" business. Are you in contact with any traditional customers (military/academic) yet?

Also, like pierreye, I'd love to have a detailed spec for the required input signal. I've got several demos I want to do, with your HMD in mind.

[Bishop51]

1. Have to agree with Brantlew on this one; You really need to charge more to earn some kind of profit for yourself Palmer! It's extraordinarily cool of you to keep this rock-bottom on the pricing tier but you absolutely deserve to make something from your efforts. This could be the start of something much bigger and you needn't limit yourself unnecessarily.

Ideas for what I should show off in the Kickstarter video.

You're going to have to dumb it down a little but focus on immersion and what it means to be truly immersed visually and how the industry has failed in that regard (and how you're doing something very different). Show someone sitting at a soul-sucking computer screen playing a game and then contrast that with the merits of a true VR experience. Keep it light, short, funny even. Don't bog people down with techno-babble (you can do that in the description). Relate it to popular videogames and the sense of place you can bring to people "Step into your favorite videogame and live the experience." Show shots of your workbench, the lab and bring people into your world. Show them what you've been working with and express your earnest desires to share technologies which are years away from commercial viability.

2. I've blabbed about it before but I do graphic illustration, design, product branding and product engineering for a living (video and board games mostly). I would love to design a logo for you. When do you need it by, do you have anything in mind or as a basis for inspiration and what sizes do you require? I'm happy to take a crack at it without any initial feedback as well:)

Here's an example of my most recent. Everything you see below is me...

[pierreye]

oooh pierreye, that Lumagen thing looks great. How much is that?

You can get it from
http://www.curtpalme.com/Radiance.shtm

Sometime it's on sale at around USD 1.3k. Might be expensive if you use it for HMD only but valuable for TV and projector for greyscale and CMS tuning.

[PalmerTech]

Thanks for all the feedback!

I can probably whip something up in Photoshop showing the difference in resolution/FOV of different headsets. Maybe something like this ( http://3dvrm.com/hmd_comparison.gif ) but made easier to understand. I have the HMZ-T1, had the 1200VR, and plan to get the ST1080 at release. So I may be one of the few people with experience with all 3 of these consumer HMDs. Could also put some older stuff in the comparison as well (VR920, etc.) just for historical reference. Not much experience with professional gear, but I could base that on specs.

Thanks, that would be great! It would probably be good to throw a TV and a movie theater screen in there for a point of reference that people can relate to. On a side note, I have an ST1080 on pre-order, I can lend it out so you can review before you buy, if you want.

Need any free CAD work, be glad to help with that, it's a main part of what I do for a living. Also do design work on logos and such (in CAD, but exportable of course to various formats) as part of many projects. Often design parts and such for direct laser/CNC/waterjet manufacturing, or just plans. Typically aircraft or electronics related these days, but am used to working with extreme precision.

Thanks for the offer, I may take you up on that! I am decent at CAD work myself, but only in 2-D. My goal is to keep these parts as simple as possible for the initial run, so I think I am good at the moment. Maybe a second revision!

My understanding is your unit will output 3D in SBS mode. I'll experiment with Lumagen RadianceMini that if I can sucessfully convert 3D Frame Pack to SBS and do the aspect ratio correction, then I'm in. Want to try out 120 degree FOV in gaming compare to 50 degree FOV. What's the native resolution of the LCD panel and input signal?

It takes 3D in, ideally, un-distorted SBS mode. IZ3D can do this and use the whole FOV, if you are willing to reduce vertical FOV, it also works with TriDef drivers combined with Nthusim. I am experimenting with using Nthusim to correct for lens distortion, as well! The native resolution is 1280x800, and currently it takes VGA. I am talking to the control board manufacturer to see if I can get a small, custom VGA/DVI board made.

Oculus is nice, only the problem with rights...

Thanks for the concern! I have checked out the copyright side, and I think we are in different enough businesses/geographical location that things will be fine.

@PalmerTech: Honestly I think you should charge more for these units and consider taking a profit on them. You are one of the few guys in the industry that seems to understand the needs of the VR community, so I think it would benefit everyone here in the long run if you were able to create a viable business out of this. I would consider it an "investment" to pay a little extra up front in hopes of a true commercial Palmer unit in the future. I assume the world-wide market for this type of unit is pretty small, but it is also completely untapped. The first company that comes out with a $1000 HMD with 90+ FOV will monopolize the entire academic VR and gaming market.

I have some plans for making it a viable business later on, but I don't think the resolution or driver support is far enough along to make a push in the consumer gaming market, not just yet. In the meanwhile, I think minimizing the cost barrier to entry is the best thing for the community. If, say, Toshiba releases those 6.1" 2560x1600 panels... Well, expect another Kickstarter project. What I might do is set aside a certain amount for things I can continue to use. For example, right now, I have to borrow time on a laser cutter. Might make sense to build a few thousand dollars into the Kickstarter budget to buy my own laser cutter than I can use to produce parts.

@Palmer If it's ~$500 I will instantly buy one, but I agree with brantlew that you should consider making a go of this as a "real" business. Are you in contact with any traditional customers (military/academic) yet?

It should be less than $500, though it might get close to there, depending on how many things I add in. I am in contact with some potential big customers, not going to plan on anything from that sector, though. If it happens, then it is a nice bonus.

1. Have to agree with Brantlew on this one; You really need to charge more to earn some kind of profit for yourself Palmer! It's extraordinarily cool of you to keep this rock-bottom on the pricing tier but you absolutely deserve to make something from your efforts. This could be the start of something much bigger and you needn't limit yourself unnecessarily.

2. I've blabbed about it before but I do graphic illustration, design, product branding and product engineering for a living (video and board games mostly). I would love to design a logo for you. When do you need it by, do you have anything in mind or as a basis for inspiration and what sizes do you require? I'm happy to take a crack at it without any initial feedback as well:)

I think I will benefit in the long run, squeezing a few extra dollars out of the enthusiast community strikes me the wrong way. I am working on something along the lines of the old Virtuality arcade systems, I think there is easier money in that direction. Aside from that, the more money I take for myself, the more responsible I am for supporting the product; Tech support, warranties, I don't want to have to deal with that. A logo would be great! I want to stay as high contrast as possible, black and white. I need a text logo for "Oculus" that I can put on the front of my HMDs (Maybe all caps?), a "RIFT" text logo, and some kind of graphical logo for both of them. I was thinking something eye-inspired for Oculus, and something that illustrates the concept of tearing through reality for the Rift. I am not an art person, not at all, so I really appreciate it!

[cybereality]

Thanks, that would be great! It would probably be good to throw a TV and a movie theater screen in there for a point of reference that people can relate to. On a side note, I have an ST1080 on pre-order, I can lend it out so you can review before you buy, if you want.

Sure thing, that makes sense. Also, I'd love to try the ST1080 and write a review for it. Honestly don't need another HMD at the moment, so my main goal in buying would just be for review purposes. Eventually I would like my own unit, when I actually have some applications that will utilize it. So, yeah, thanks again.

[JohnCarmack]

If you are talking to the LCD driver board manufacturer, ask about supporting higher display rates! 120 hz would be ideal, but there is still a noticeable difference between 60 and 85, which most boards can manage.

John Carmack

[PalmerTech]

If you are talking to the LCD driver board manufacturer, ask about supporting higher display rates! 120 hz would be ideal, but there is still a noticeable difference between 60 and 85, which most boards can manage.

John Carmack

That is one of the reasons I would like to go with a new driver board instead of my current one. They said they can do 75hz for sure, and are going to get back to me soon with info on higher refresh rates.

[Contractor]

I'm in! Missed the $100 off the SD1080 though

I'm considering selling my z800 for the SD1080.

Cheers,

Contractor

[PalmerTech]

I'm in! Missed the $100 off the SD1080 though

I'm considering selling my z800 for the SD1080.

You definitely should. The difference in quality between the two is vast.

[cadcoke5]

Your intended consumer is not the general public, but rather the hacker. Universities may also be interested. It is for someone who wants to play with the technology, and is OK with something that has limited real usefulness because of driver issues. I am guessing that your kit would be ideas for someone who wants to make their own modifications, upgrade he display, etc?

I don't think you need to put much effort into getting the general gaming enthusiast interested in the full "kickstart", but rather they would come in at the lower support levels.As others have already suggested, showing the difference between current consumer models, and what you want to offer is the main issue.

Joe Dunfee

[pierreye]

I need the minimum support of DVI/HDMI input for the wireless HDMI to work. Hope you can find the supplier that can sell you the HDMI board. As for support, I think it is not necessary on the low entry price as most of us would have some experience in troubleshooting simple issue. The project I can foresee is not for average consumer initially but with VR community feedback and modification could be a solid product for general users.

[PalmerTech]

I need the minimum support of DVI/HDMI input for the wireless HDMI to work. Hope you can find the supplier that can sell you the HDMI board.

There are small/cheap HDMI to VGA adapters for about $40 USD, they introduce almost no latency. That is what I am using with my current HMD. I would rather get DVI/HDMI, though, so that is one of my current goals!

I think you guys are spot on about the target market. I would rather not have regular gamers buying this not understanding what it is and the limitations, and then giving it all kinds of bad reviews!

[3dvison]

So your looking at a ship date of july or a bit later ?

[FingerFlinger]

As for support, I think it is not necessary on the low entry price as most of us would have some experience in troubleshooting simple issue.

Plus, I'm sure we'll all be here on the forums trading info and mods as soon as we get our hands on it.

That makes me think of something else Palmer, are you going to set up any kind of "official" website through which you'll deal with customers? Probably it will be mostly us at first, but you probably want a "professional" avenue of communication as well.

[WiredEarp]

I'd really like to buy one of these instead of a ST1080, but the lack of software support is what is holding it back. There really needs to be a ready to run game that can be provided for free with it, or it needs to work with modern games with the correct aspect ratio. If one of the software or hardware methods you guys are investigating pans out, and provides the ability to work with modern stuff, then this is really extremely exciting and I'll definitely donate. Alternatively, I feel it really needs a 'killer app' , since otherwise this great HMD will be useless for many people. Something like 'Dactyl Nightmare 2', a simple run around and shoot VR game, would be great. Something that we can use as a tech demo and play amongst ourselves. Perhaps we could set up a project to do this in Unity or similar, to provide something for people to actually USE their HMD's together with. I really feel we are on the cusp of that revival, that most of us have probably been waiting for for a long time, and this HMD may well be the thing that enables people to demonstrate the potential of virtual worlds, for a reasonable price.

PalmerTech, how is it with displaying 2D imagery? If I could use this with my FPV cameras, it would be awesome, especially since many cameras now can do similar FOV. I probably don't require AV in since I already have

[brantlew]

@WiredEarp: We would need a special driver to display any 2D content. My understanding is that each lens is focused at 1/2 the LCD screen so if you just displayed an unbroken 1280x800 2D image on the screen each eye would only see half the image. To display 2D would require the creation of a driver that took a 640x800 2D signal, and concatenated it into a side-by-side view. Then each eye would get a complete copy of the image. It would look terrible if you just tried to take a 1280x800 signal and squash it by half, so you want the driver to report it's resolution as 640x800 to the OS so that desktop graphics were rendered at the correct aspect ratio and you didn't have to scale horizontally. After I get my Palmer unit I will try to put some time into this. An open-source movement might be another option.

This is the second or third time recently that I have seen the idea put forth for an open source game to demo VR technology. I think it's a good idea. Not only could you show how to really immerse the player visually (proper HUD, wide FOV), but you could also demonstrate better motion controls (yaw, pitch, AND roll, independent hand and head, etc).

[WiredEarp]

Mmm, sounds complicated ;-( Unless - could 2d functionality also be achieved by physically removing the lenses and partitioner and replacing them with a wide lens? If so, that could be workable as well.
To have a wide FOV solution for FOV/telepresence would be extremely handy, FOV's on FPV HMD's seem to have been dropping over the last few years and its hard to get much with more than a 40 FOV.

That is the sort of immersion I am talking about. Independent body positioning, gun movement, etc, so you have to 'aim' down the sights, and can lean, stick your gun round corners, etc, just like in the old Virtuality systems. The gun becomes a sort of 'hand' substitute and it aids immersion a lot to have it independently moveable in all 6 dimensions.

[fireslayer26]

This is definitely exciting! I'll be keeping a close eye on this thread!

[brantlew]

Mmm, sounds complicated ;-( Unless - could 2d functionality also be achieved by physically removing the lenses and partitioner and replacing them with a wide lens?

My guess is that the distortion would be pretty bad. This is definitely an advantage of the micro-display systems because you can switch from 3D to 2D without any loss of resolution or quality. What do you think Palmer?

[3dvison]

I think Palmer should keep focused on it being a 3D VR HMD and get it out as fast as possible.
Him wasting time on a 2D solution is not needed in my opinion.
I like the idea of this HMD being fully centered around VR Worlds and gaming with the HMD being 3D with a large FOV.
The VR comunity can make a 2d mod if they want. I have no problem setting up with a 2D monitor and then putting on the RIFT for stepping into that Game/VR world.
This is not just self serving because I want the RIFT in my hot little hands but I do think it is best to get it out the door as quick as you can. Make it the best VR HMD, don't wast any time on anything else.

[brantlew]

@3Dvision: I agree. That's why I advocate a software driver solution instead of a hardware solution.

[WiredEarp]

I'm more thinking of people building it, if its designed correctly it should be extremely easy for people to make a 2D mod themselves.

A software solution would be great, but the higher res from using the whole panel could be nice for FPV applications.
However, I stick with my opinion that this will not be of much use to most people, unless the aspect ratio issue can be sorted so people can actually start to use it OOTB.

[Bishop51]

I think Palmer should keep focused on it being a 3D VR HMD and get it out as fast as possible.
Him wasting time on a 2D solution is not needed in my opinion.
I like the idea of this HMD being fully centered around VR Worlds and gaming with the HMD being 3D with a large FOV.
The VR comunity can make a 2d mod if they want. I have no problem setting up with a 2D monitor and then putting on the RIFT for stepping into that Game/VR world.
This is not just self serving because I want the RIFT in my hot little hands but I do think it is best to get it out the door as quick as you can. Make it the best VR HMD, don't wast any time on anything else.

There's another reason to keep it as focused as possible on the "3D VR Worlds & Gaming" market and that's fan generated support (especially somewhere as hipster saturated as Kickstarter is). One of many consistent failings with most VR enterprises is targeting research and private or military industrial contracts. Keeping it relevant to modern gaming (even if that gaming requires modification to work with the hardware) will create a substantially larger user group for supporting infrastructure.

Yes, I'm being self serving by saying that but its also true

A logo would be great! I want to stay as high contrast as possible, black and white. I need a text logo for "Oculus" that I can put on the front of my HMDs (Maybe all caps?), a "RIFT" text logo, and some kind of graphical logo for both of them. I was thinking something eye-inspired for Oculus, and something that illustrates the concept of tearing through reality for the Rift. I am not an art person, not at all, so I really appreciate it!

Sounds good. I'll bash some ideas around for you!

[3dvison]

@3Dvision: I agree. That's why I advocate a software driver solution instead of a hardware solution.

No, I agree with you..LOL

I first thought 2d funtion mattered also, but then my mind shifted or RIFT-ED and I now look at the RIFT as a VR & VR Gaming specific device to be used after you have gotten every thing setup and ready to go using your 2D desktop.
Just don't think Palmer should waste any of his time working on 2D.

I bet others like me would have been happy with Palmer just building and selling the Optics assembly and letting us buy and build the other parts on our own. But I won't complain about the compleat kit in a box idea either, I like that very much also.
In case you can't tell, I also like the idea of calling it "RIFT".
Remember the band the Doors.The name of the band was referring to the doors of perception. So you could name it "The Door"..LOL..We will be using it as a reality EXIT...The "EXIT" theres an idea for it's name..LOL

Here's It's tag line... Sick of reality, than open your eyes and don't miss your EXIT..HaHa

[TigerClaw]

Go Palmer!

[pierreye]

PalmerTech, how is it with displaying 2D imagery?

Theorectically 3D Vision enable 3D desktop mode when stereoscopic 3D is enable which is why it can support windows mode 3D game and video. If my experiment with Lumagen conversion of 3D frame pack to SBS prove to be successful, then it is possible to display windows desktop on the HMD.

[WiredEarp]

My guess is that the distortion would be pretty bad. This is definitely an advantage of the micro-display systems because you can switch from 3D to 2D without any loss of resolution or quality.

Perhaps, but remember, wouldn't that just be the same type of things PalmerTech did with his MRG conversion? I think he said that was quite good despite slight distortion...
People can always open source mod this afterwards to add 2D support, I just thought it might be a selling point if it can be easily done.

Speaking of which, I had the idea that most of our 2D/3D problems can probably be solved by some cheap chinese converters in the future. So I did a hunt and found this:

Specifications 2d to 3d hdmi converter
- 1920 x 1080 (Full-HD) Resolution
- 2D to 3D
- HDMI (480P/576P/720P/1080i/1080P)
- Converts 2D content to 3D "Anaglyphic" Amber/Blue format for any 2D TV with HDMI input viewed with Amber/Blue Glasses
- Converts 3D “Side-by-Side-Half” (SBS-H) content to 3D "Anaglyphic" format for any 2D TV with HDMI input viewed with Amber/Blue Glasses
- Converts 2D content to "Side-By-Side-Half" 3D format for Shutter Glasses type 3D HDTV
- Converts 2D content to "Line-By-Line" 3D format for Polarized Glasses type 3D HDTV
- Converts 2D content to "Frame Sequential" format for 3D DLP Projector
- Switch conversion 2D content to 3D on/off with a key press
- 3D output color adjustment (Half color/Full color/Optimum, programmed by firmware)
- 3D stereo effect adjustment (Convergence: Inward/Middle/Outward, programmed by firmware)
- Select 3D Depth effect adjustment (Index: Weak/Medium/Strong) with a key press
FUNCTION DESCRIPTION
Support 3D “side by side” format convert to 2D HDTV with anaglyph amber/blue glasses
Convert 2D to 3D Stereo image
Support 2D convert to "Side-by-side" 3D format for Shutter/Polarized Glasses type 3D HDTV
Support 2D convert to 3D anaglyph for any TV with HDMI input
2D transfer to 3D function with bottom switch
3D effect control (3D Index: Weak/Strong)
Support Maximum 1920 x 1080 (Full-HD) Resolution
Output to TV in 1080P HDMI
Input:
HDMI (480P/576P/720P/1080i/1080P)
Output:
HDMI (1080P/720P)

Could we use this to convert 2D to 3D content, with zero depth, for display on this HMD? We'd still have aspect ratio issues I guess however...

[brantlew]

Speaking of which, I had the idea that most of our 2D/3D problems can probably be solved by some cheap chinese converters in the future. So I did a hunt and found this:

An interesting possibility. There may also be existing software implementations that do the same thing. Aspect ratio would be annoying but for short term usage (ie. configuring and setting up game play) it might be acceptable.

[space123321]

Just sold my HMZ as it was just not what I had hoped for (do not get me wrong - it is amazing) however it was just not what I wanted in an HMD. I am watching this thread like a hawk for status updates lol!!!

[3dvison]

Just sold my HMZ as it was just not what I had hoped for (do not get me wrong - it is amazing) however it was just not what I wanted in an HMD. I am watching this thread like a hawk for status updates lol!!!

I'm getting ready to buy soon also, so I hope the RIFT comes soon also.

[PalmerTech]

So your looking at a ship date of july or a bit later ?

If everything goes well, yes, shipping in July! I am still working on how it should actually mount to your head, designing something that can be adjusted for everyone is tough.

That makes me think of something else Palmer, are you going to set up any kind of "official" website through which you'll deal with customers? Probably it will be mostly us at first, but you probably want a "professional" avenue of communication as well.

Yes, I am in the process of setting up a site. Gonna be pretty barebones, but enough to do what it needs to do.

There really needs to be a ready to run game that can be provided for free with it, or it needs to work with modern games with the correct aspect ratio. If one of the software or hardware methods you guys are investigating pans out, and provides the ability to work with modern stuff, then this is really extremely exciting and I'll definitely donate.

I think some demo software would be good. I have gotten it to work in the correct aspect ratio with some modern games using the IZ3D driver, it just requires a bit of custom resolution work for each game you want to use!

Mmm, sounds complicated ;-( Unless - could 2d functionality also be achieved by physically removing the lenses and partitioner and replacing them with a wide lens?

My guess is that the distortion would be pretty bad. This is definitely an advantage of the micro-display systems because you can switch from 3D to 2D without any loss of resolution or quality. What do you think Palmer?

It could definitely be done, that is one of the advantages of a modular design. Making a new optics faceplate for 2D use is pretty simple, I might even look into that as an option for the Kickstarter project. Basically, you would be making it into the same thing I did with the PR1.


As for all the discussion about hardware/software methods for displaying 2D, my advice would be to just use a cloned monitor to set everything up. The edges of the lenses are pretty distorted, and while you can correct for this in DirectX stuff using Nthusim or the like, the Windows desktop is not particularly fun to use, especially since the field of view makes it tough to see your keyboard! Some kind of custom game launcher that puts all the elements closer to the center could be very interesting, though.

Thanks again for all the support!

[pierreye]

I don't mind paying extra for 1080p panel. I checked out Lumagen yesterday and it had no problem converting 3D signal from FramePack to 1080p 60hz SBS or 720p 60hz SBS.

[Chriky]

Just wanted to chip in on behalf of the lurkers that I would buy one of these too!

[3dvison]

So your looking at a ship date of july or a bit later ?

If everything goes well, yes, shipping in July! I am still working on how it should actually mount to your head, designing something that can be adjusted for everyone is tough.

Don't spend alot of your time on it, because hey, if Sony could not do it, why should you..LOL
What I mean is, I think your real break through is your optics/display assembly. Thats what we most want to buy.
Once the Sony HMZ-T1 was released and in the hands of the people, they modded it for comfort. Most people buy the HMZ-t1 knowing there is a good chance, they might need to mod it for comfort.
You should just put a very plain strap on the RIFT, just good enough to hold it on our noggin for a look see, and from there we will mod it to our liking.

[WiredEarp]

I agree that the mount is not the important thing. However, its important that the face/HMD interface area is comfortable. I dont think bulk is a concern, but the way this area is shaped will be important for comfort, even if its covered in foam. The system to mount it to the head, or to a helmet, etc, could be done by the purchasers, although if a basic strap can be provided to 'get people running' it would be a useful selling point as 3dvision said. The important thing is providing a decent resolution high FOV HMD, cheaply.

[3dvison]

Yes, I am in the process of setting up a site. Gonna be pretty barebones, but enough to do what it needs to do.

I think some demo software would be good. I have gotten it to work in the correct aspect ratio with some modern games using the IZ3D driver, it just requires a bit of custom resolution work for each game you want to use!

I think if you have one pretty popular game working on the RIFT with the correct aspect ratio that will be as good as a demo.
In fact thread Number One, on your website should be a "Getting Games Running" Thread, and post #1 should be a list of the games, you already have working, and a quick "How To" on how you got them working with the correct aspect ratio. Then just let the users of the RIFT list the games they have gotten to work and how they did it.

Like I said, it may be self serving on my part, just because I want a RIFT, but that aside, I do think getting the RIFT in peoples hands as quick as you can is also a smart thing to do. It would get the support of the VR community rolling with mods for the RIFT and also there input on how they got other games and software working with it.

[TigerClaw]

Suggestion: it would be awesome if we can use with the HMD correction lenses fort short sighted people like me.
It would be the only consumer HMD with this type of feature.

No more glasses!

[PalmerTech]

I think if you have one pretty popular game working on the RIFT with the correct aspect ratio that will be as good as a demo.

In fact thread Number One, on your website should be a "Getting Games Running" Thread, and post #1 should be a list of the games, you already have working, and a quick "How To" on how you got them working with the correct aspect ratio. Then just let the users of the RIFT list the games they have gotten to work and how they did it.

I might try to get Skyrim running, since that is a game that has a huge fanbase. I have gotten some offers from people on the VR-Geeks mailing list to help make some demos for the RIFT that can include full positional and rotational data, that will be really cool, too.

Suggestion: it would be awesome if we can use with the HMD correction lenses fort short sighted people like me.
It would be the only consumer HMD with this type of feature.

No more glasses!

The RIFT lets you adjust the focal length of the lenses by turning a couple screws, so you can adjust yours to be whatever you want. I am a bit short sighted as well, so this is important for me too.

[StreetRat]

I know im late to the game, but i thought id put in my interest as well.

One thing though, theres a MMO called RIFT by a company called Trion Worlds. (http://www.riftgame.com)
Not sure if itll be different enough not to be a problem or not, but might pay to make sure any graphics or logos dont look like theirs at all.

[cybereality]

I really don't like to over-hype the stuff I'm working on (mostly cause I never finish things) but I am in the process of making a VR demo of sorts. I plan to have native 3D support, and should be able to handle strange aspect-ratios if necessary. I don't want to give away too much yet, but lets just say physics will play a big role. I hope to have an early version running in the next few months. I think it will be pretty cool when its done. It will also require the Razer Hydra, and may need a dedicated PhysX card. But maybe I can make a version that will use other devices later on (like Wiimote or Move). It probably won't be finished for the release of the RIFT, but maybe shortly afterwards. Stay tuned...

[pierreye]

Lumagen had a mode for Non Linear Stretch which might help for wide FOV gaming. It allow custom stretch where the side is stretch more than the center pixel which might be a good fit for Palmer custom HMD. So far my experiment show that NLS only work for different aspect ratio, eg. 4:3 to 16:9 or 16:9 to 21:9 (widescreen). Will check with the engineer if it is possible for similar aspect ratio. Basically if this mode work, I think the hardware solution will be the easy route to make Rift HMD compatible to all PC games.

NLS streching.JPG

Extract from Lumagen manual.
Non-linear Stretch
Non-linear-stretch (NLS) is used to horizontally stretch a 4:3 aspect ratio source to fit a 16:9 aspect-ratio display or
to stretch a 16:9/1.85 source to fit a 2.35 aspect-ratio display. The image is stretched by a constant amount in the
center and by an increasing amount approaching the left and right edges. This eliminates the black sidebars
normally seen when viewing lower aspect material on a higher aspect display. To use non-linear stretch press the
“4:3”, “16:9” or “1.85” button and then press the “NLS” button.
The goal is to stretch the image to fill the screen in a way that looks as natural as possible. The Lumagen NLS
command is very flexible and allows the image to be adjusted to user preferences to achieve this goal. The NLS
adjustments are center width, center stretch, top cropping and bottom cropping. The center section of the image
is stretched by a constant ratio from 100% to 124%. The width of the center section can be set from 15% to 70%
of the display width. By programming the center section width and stretch amount, the amount of non-linear
stretch in the left and right sections can be optimized. In addition, the top and bottom cropping can be set from 0
to 12%. Increasing the amount of cropping reduces the amount of stretch near the left and right edges of the
image. When setting the cropping parameters, it is recommended that the satellite/cable box menu be checked to
assure that critical parameters remain visible.
Some 4:3 sources fill the entire source image (e.g. DVD 16:9 movies), but other sources place a 4:3 image in the
center of a 16:9 image (e.g. HDTV with up-scaled SD source). This latter case is seen as a “pillar-boxed” image
with black bars on the left and right. The “PILLARBOXED” parameter must be enabled for this case. The Lumagen
will then crop the pillbox bars and stretch the active 4:3 image.
For a 16:9 display, when 4:3 NLS is enabled, the image will fill the screen with a 4:3 (1.33) source for any output
aspect ratio up to 1.85. If the output aspect ratio is greater than 1.85, software limits the maximum width to the
equivalent of 1.78 and adds left and right sidebars.
For a 2.35 display, when 16:9 NLS is enabled, the image will fill the screen with a 16:9 or 1.85 source for any
output aspect ratio up to 2.40. If the output aspect ratio is greater than 2.40, software limits the maximum width
to the equivalent of 2.40 and adds left and right sidebars.

[pierreye]

@Palmer - Does the HMD lens correct part of the aspect ratio problem like a anamorphic lens? Or can we use a wide angle lens? If yes, this would be the best route to go for as I don't want to throw more pixel away for correct aspect ratio.

DIY option for anamorphic lens.
http://www.zuggsoft.com/theater/prism.htm

[Johnny-Mnemonic]

Hi PalmerTech! Looking forward to your "Rift", I will probably pass all other HMD's now, I really want big FOV which nobody except you are plan to deliver. So thanks for thinking about FOV as a priority!

[PalmerTech]

@Palmer - Does the HMD lens correct part of the aspect ratio problem like a anamorphic lens? Or can we use a wide angle lens? If yes, this would be the best route to go for as I don't want to throw more pixel away for correct aspect ratio.

Thanks for the detailed explanation of what the Lumagen can do! The HMD optics actually do the opposite of an anamorphic lens, it curves the pixels inward, especially at the far edges. This is bad for using the Lumagen, I imagine, but it is actually good for the HMD. It allows you to have higher apparent resolution in the center, where more pixels are focused, and spreads out the pixels on the far edges. I will post screenshots from Nthusim showing warping later today.

Hi PalmerTech! Looking forward to your "Rift", I will probably pass all other HMD's now, I really want big FOV which nobody except you are plan to deliver. So thanks for thinking about FOV as a priority!

Great to hear! The resolution is not as high as I would like, but it is still many times higher than any of the LEEP displays, or the MRG 2.2, so definitely usable.

[3dvison]

I will post screenshots from Nthusim showing warping later today.

YES, Pictures please. All and any pictures you have of or about the RIFT.

[space123321]

Would love to see some teaser pics as well - the curiosity is killing me lol!

You mention that the res is not as high as you would like - what res are you working with?

Also - what type of hookup will this run - HDMI? You mentioned compatibility concerns - I am running 3d vision as well as ddd drivers on my PC. Will the rift run with this setup?

Thanks in advance~

[davidgutierrezpalma]

Hey guys, I'm a first time poster, long time lurker...

I'm a freelance game developer (using the Unity3D game engine) and I've been interested in buying a HMD for research for a long time. At first, I thought about purchasing the Sony HMZ-T1, but I realized it would be wiser to start saving money for this HMD when I learned about PalmerTech project... My idea is adding native support for stereoscopic 3D to my personal projects and suggesting my customers to add such support for paid projects, allowing the player to change the fov in the menu depending on the fov of the HMD their are using. As a developer and as an end-user, I would appreciate an easy way to display 2D images, but I suppose I'm far more interested in 3D mode than 2D.

PalmerTech asked in this thread about ideas for the Kickstarter project. I know there are a lot of people in this community who have purchased other HMDs or head tracking hardware previously, but that isn't my case. I'm not a hardware guy, so I would appreciate having an integrated solution for HMD + head tracking, maybe using something like the Sparkfun Razor. I think you could create several pledges for people like me, people who won't mind to pay a little more for getting a "complete product" instead of a DIY kit that must be integrated with other 3rd-party products in order to have a "complete VR solution".

For cheaper pledges, maybe you can sell T-shirts, cups, stickers and things like that. in addition, you could give away a small game or demo showing the benefits of purchasing your HMD instead of purchasing other commercial products. For example, there is a small FPS demo for Unity3D which can be edited for simulating the fov of different HMDs... and it would be possible to play the game in "window-mode" and change the window size at runtime to make it proportional to the simulated fov, so the user would appreciate better how different is your product to the other solutions available in the market. I wouldn't mind to make those changes myself, it should be easy and I'm very interested in this project, so I would like to see it success.

[nrp]

That actually does make quite a lot of sense. Keeping the barriers to entry as low as possible by getting everyone developing on the same display hardware, optics, and motion tracking would be useful.

PalmerTech, the Tracker my friend and I are working on is entirely open source, if you would be interested in integrating it somehow. The board area is currently 1.5"x1.5", but that is entirely because of our use of Bluetooth and inclusion of debug/GPIO headers. The meat of it interfaced over USB can fit on one side of a 1"x1" PCB and uses <$20 of parts (at 100 units).

I'm going to be assembling the second board revision this weekend if the parts arrive in time.

Edit: Slight side note. Within the next few months, ST is releasing a single IC 3 axis gyro/magnetometer/accelerometer which would drastically reduce both the size and price of this sort of thing.

[davidgutierrezpalma]

That actually does make quite a lot of sense. Keeping the barriers to entry as low as possible by getting everyone developing on the same display hardware, optics, and motion tracking would be useful.

Of course developing for a single display / optics / motion tracking combination is easier than having to take into account all possible combinations, but I don't think the user base would be big enough (at least at the beginning) to support only PalmerTech's HMD. I know this HMD will be much better than everything else in the consumer market, but with a small user base, I will need to develop for several HMD / head tracking combinations to justify the investment, so having a head tracker integrated in this HMD won't keep the entry barriers low for developers. When I was talking about having the motion tracker integrated in the HMD I was talking as an end-user, but as a developer, it can be a good selling point to label my game as "compatible with _______" or "optimized for _______".

PalmerTech, the Tracker my friend and I are working on is entirely open source, if you would be interested in integrating it somehow.

I talked about the Sparkfun Razor because I need a head-tracker that works in 360 degrees, but if your head tracker meets that requirement I would say "why not?" I would like to hear the opinion of PalmerTech about the possibility of adding integrated head-tracking to his HMD.

[WiredEarp]

If be happy if there was just a flat square area to mount whatever tracker I choose. That way, PalmerTech could always include a tracker as an option, but those who have them already don't have to pay for a tracker they dont need.

[CyberVillain]

Sparkfun razor is a Arduino IMU which uses standard IC compatible sensors (ADXL345, HMC5883L and ITG-3200) you can probably take nrp's fusion code and use it directly for the Razor (Maybe change library for the sensors if it uses different sensors). I've yet to see fusion code that completely eliminates drift though.

[nrp]

Sparkfun razor is a Arduino IMU which uses standard IC compatible sensors (ADXL345, HMC5883L and ITG-3200) you can probably take nrp's fusion code and use it directly for the Razor (Maybe change library for the sensors if it uses different sensors). I've yet to see fusion code that completely eliminates drift though.

The Razor has fairly similar hardware to what I've built and would ultimately output the same result running the same sensor fusion algorithms. The downsides to the Razor though are that it is kind of expensive for what it is, and that it interfaces over TTL serial rather than USB (though my board also has a serial header).

You all are correct though that it doesn't really matter what the specific motion tracker in use is. What matters from a developer/user perspective is that they have similar capabilities and the same or similar interface. That is, a reasonably drift free (or true AHRS) quaternion delivered in an easy to parse format over serial, USB virtual serial, or something like the USB HID Sensor protocol.

This is kind of drifting away from the topic of Rift though.

[fraherd]

Good to hear your still working away at it Palmer. If you need money up front I'm happy to throw you accross what ever you think the unit is going to cost now. Real keen to see you get this off the ground.

[Balthazar]

Hi Palmer,
"Cb"wan told me about your "Oculus/Rift" project, in the beginning I thought it was just a chip diy project but after reading your post, I think that's really impressive... I hope you'll achieve it!
If you're still in need for logos, I'm no pro but I would be glad to help you for that part ( btw, I think Oculus is a very nice name)...let me know if you're interested: balthazar.auxietre@gmail.com

Good luck!

[PalmerTech]

You mention that the res is not as high as you would like - what res are you working with?

Also - what type of hookup will this run - HDMI?

The res is 1280x800 split in half. It should be able to use VGA, HDMI, and DVI connections. Still figuring out the best way to do drivers.

My idea is adding native support for stereoscopic 3D to my personal projects and suggesting my customers to add such support for paid projects, allowing the player to change the fov in the menu depending on the fov of the HMD their are using.

Great! That is exactly what I am hoping people will do, write support for it into their own games. Integrated head tracking is probably a good idea as long as it can be done without a huge cost, which looks very possible now. If people want more advanced tracking (Like the Hydra) they can do it themselves.

PalmerTech, the Tracker my friend and I are working on is entirely open source, if you would be interested in integrating it somehow. The board area is currently 1.5"x1.5", but that is entirely because of our use of Bluetooth and inclusion of debug/GPIO headers. The meat of it interfaced over USB can fit on one side of a 1"x1" PCB and uses <$20 of parts (at 100 units)

Your tracker probably is a good choice, it would fit this project well. 1.5x1.5 is fine, size wise. USB is probably fine for most people, but bluetooth would be good for people using wireless video links for standup rigs. I would love to get in on whatever first batch you make for testing, and if it works well, we can probably work out something from there.

Everyone else, thank you for the interest! Looks like there are about 20 people who have said they would want one for sure, that is probably enough to hit at least a third of the Kickstarter goal I have in mind.

[alexlf]

If your looking to gauge interest I'd definitely get one, and I might be able to convince a few friends as well...
Looking forward to it Palmer

[davidgutierrezpalma]

Great! That is exactly what I am hoping people will do, write support for it into their own games. Integrated head tracking is probably a good idea as long as it can be done without a huge cost, which looks very possible now. If people want more advanced tracking (Like the Hydra) they can do it themselves.

I haven't started to research the cost of adding head tracking to my games, but with so many products in the market (without a standard API) it may not be so easy. However, I don't understand why only a few games have native stereoscopic support and none of them offers a configurable fov (without hacking config files). The cost of adding those features (in any game engine) is so small in comparison with the benefits you would get... I really don't understand.

I suppose most innovations comes from indie developers nowadays: while many indie developers try to make money finding a niche and making good products for that small market, most big studios are working in multi-million projects and are too afraid of trying new ideas because of the financial risk involved.

[bobv5]

I most certainly am intrested, but have very little cash. Will this still be available in many months when I have saved up enough?

[CyberVillain]

Great! That is exactly what I am hoping people will do, write support for it into their own games. Integrated head tracking is probably a good idea as long as it can be done without a huge cost, which looks very possible now. If people want more advanced tracking (Like the Hydra) they can do it themselves.

I haven't started to research the cost of adding head tracking to my games, but with so many products in the market (without a standard API) it may not be so easy. However, I don't understand why only a few games have native stereoscopic support and none of them offers a configurable fov (without hacking config files). The cost of adding those features (in any game engine) is so small in comparison with the benefits you would get... I really don't understand.

I suppose most innovations comes from indie developers nowadays: while many indie developers try to make money finding a niche and making good products for that small market, most big studios are working in multi-million projects and are too afraid of trying new ideas because of the financial risk involved.

If you support the Freetrack API most trackers can be supported through FreePIE or GlovePIE

[davidgutierrezpalma]

If you support the Freetrack API most trackers can be supported through FreePIE or GlovePIE

Thanks for the information, I will study that approach. I don't want to hijack this thread, so I will start a new thread if i need more information about Freetrack and other motion tracking systems.

[CyberVillain]

If you support the Freetrack API most trackers can be supported through FreePIE or GlovePIE

Thanks for the information, I will study that approach. I don't want to hijack this thread, so I will start a new thread if i need more information about Freetrack and other motion tracking systems.

No worries, just one more thing, Freetrack only takes care of headtracking. For moving the entire view (that you normally do with the mouse) you could support absolute joystick values

[nvman90]

Looks like there are about 20 people who have said they would want one for sure, that is probably enough to hit at least a third of the Kickstarter goal I have in mind.

Don't forget us lurkers! I'll want one for sure.

[nrp]

Your tracker probably is a good choice, it would fit this project well. 1.5x1.5 is fine, size wise. USB is probably fine for most people, but bluetooth would be good for people using wireless video links for standup rigs. I would love to get in on whatever first batch you make for testing, and if it works well, we can probably work out something from there.

The trouble with Bluetooth is the inherent latency. End to end, it'll be at least 50ms and probably over 100ms. You can below that if you license access to CSR's bluetooth stack and tune the HCI, L2CAP, and RFCOMM layers for latency instead of using whatever the premade modules are set up for, and also develop a USB dongle to use on the desktop side to avoid getting ruined by whatever the Bluetooth stack there is set up to do. That would require making a lot of the things for it not to add a lot of expense per unit.

The latency is acceptable for controllers, but for something controlling your field of view, it might be nauseating.

[davidgutierrezpalma]

The trouble with Bluetooth is the inherent latency. End to end, it'll be at least 50ms and probably over 100ms. You can below that if you license access to CSR's bluetooth stack and tune the HCI, L2CAP, and RFCOMM layers for latency instead of using whatever the premade modules are set up for, and also develop a USB dongle to use on the desktop side to avoid getting ruined by whatever the Bluetooth stack there is set up to do. That would require making a lot of the things for it not to add a lot of expense per unit.

The latency is acceptable for controllers, but for something controlling your field of view, it might be nauseating.

While I agree latency is something undesirable for "something controlling your field of view", I wonder if it would be so bad. Most multi-player games don't send a network package every frame (but every 100 ms) and use interpolation and movement prediction algorithms to offer the player the feeling of smooth movements. Maybe having that latency isn't so bad, we talked about redirected walking in this thread (http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 69&#p67559) and it seems our brain can accept a small disparity between our real head movements and the virtual viewport movements, but I suppose we won't know until we try it.

[WiredEarp]

Bluetooth in my (admittedly little) experience is laggy, supported by all sorts of wierd implementations that may or may not work, and wastes a lot of power on mobile devices.
Most of the decent wireless solutions that i've ever seen, seem to have their own dongles and systems.

Maybe having that latency isn't so bad, we talked about redirected walking in this thread (http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 69&#p67559) and it seems our brain can accept a small disparity between our real head movements and the virtual viewport movements, but I suppose we won't know until we try it.

I think you are underestimating the latency issue. I've experienced it on the Virtuality SU1000 setup (not that I needed to, the detrimental effects of lag in the head movement/display loop are pretty well documented) and its not going to be acceptable to have 50ms of lag shoved on top of your frame times. You can not interpolate this - while a tiny amount of interpolation may be useful just for anti noise purposes, any substantial amount will just cause similar immersion issues to the lag in the first place. The issue is that you turn your head, and the world takes a moment to 'catch up' - this breaks immersion.

I believe the redirected walking is mainly working on the effect whereby a small movement can be simulated in VR, and feel like a large one... and vice versa
That means that when turning, you can have the system 'overturn' or 'underturn' you. When moving straight, it can slowly rotate the viewpoint at a speed under your recognition. This has nothing to do with head lag IMHO.

[davidgutierrezpalma]

I don't have the hardware to test it myself (yet) so I'm probably underestimating the effects of the latency, I was only trying to suggest a possible solution to reduce those effects. I thought that, as the brain can accept some disparity between the real world movement and the virtual movement (used in redirected walking), we could get away with a small lag between the real movement and the virtual movement.

I'm probably wrong, but if somebody has the required hardware and want to give it a try...

EDIT:
A quick google search has proven that I was wrong.

[jayoh]

i sent you a pm, palmertech. i'm hyped about this project, just wish the resolution was a bit higher!

[pierreye]

Shouldn't bluetooth 2.0 latency around 30ms to 50ms? Hopefully new gen of bluetooth 4.0 will bring that below 10ms.

[gnewell22]

Looks like there are about 20 people who have said they would want one for sure, that is probably enough to hit at least a third of the Kickstarter goal I have in mind.

Don't forget us lurkers! I'll want one for sure.

I want one for sure too.

[AngelJ]

I'd be interested in one of these for sim racing on PC.

[space123321]

hi Palmer - how is it looking in terms of your June launch date? I am saving up those pennies!

[Chriky]

How much do we know about the specs then...? The resolution is about 640x800 for each eye, and should be able to take VGA and HDMI. What about the FOV? 70 degrees? Are these things still being finalized?

[PalmerTech]

hi Palmer - how is it looking in terms of your June launch date? I am saving up those pennies!

Not going to launch in June, but I will have the Kickstarter project up in June. With luck, that will mean shipping in July!

How much do we know about the specs then...? The resolution is about 640x800 for each eye, and should be able to take VGA and HDMI. What about the FOV? 70 degrees? Are these things still being finalized?

The FOV is still being finalized, mainly because I am still trying to strike a balance between cost/exit pupil/ease of assembly/FOV. I want to have a FOV of at least 90 degrees, since that is the maximum that most games can render by default. I can go as high as 120, but it will probably be a little less than that.

Progress on the project is stalled out for about a week while I buckle down on finishing a different project that is on a deadline, but full steam ahead after that.

[space123321]

Perfect - thanks for the update! Can't wait!!!

[pierreye]

90 degrees FOV is good enough. I just hope a version with 1080p panel is possible this year. With all smartphone and tablet going for retina display, we should be able to get one soon. Palmer's design is modular and allow modder to upgrade the panel when it's available.

[Bishop51]

Just a heads up that I'm still planning on working at branding for you Palmer but I'm currently trying to wrap a very big job. I might not get to it until late May (3rd week in May) as I'll be out of town as soon as this job is done. So, if that's too late for you, no worries if you need to pull in someone else.

Good luck with everything and I'm still super excited about this project!

[cybereality]

You might have heard that IZ3D got rejected from KickStarter for their open source driver. KickStarter said it was not a "creative arts" project. Do you think this HMD project might also get rejected? What other options do we have in that case?

[nrp]

As soon as the total amount of payments will reach US $800,000, the entire iZ3D driver code will be opened and placed on www.iZ3d.com under GPL license.

If they tried to set up a Kickstarter with a $800,000 goal, that probably didn't help their cause. No successful Kickstarter project has ever set a goal close to that high, let alone one to release source code for an already complete product. Kickstarter exists to bootstrap development of a project, which was not iZ3d's intent.

It clearly is PalmerTech's intent though, and Kickstarter is unlikely to reject it.

[PalmerTech]

Yeah, I don't think there has ever been a project set at $800k. Even if there had been, the IZ3D thing is not paying for some new creation, it is basically to cover their past business losses in exchange for releasing something they already made.

There have been a lot of things on Kickstarter that are similar to this. The TOOB got on, it was an immersive spherical projection display, and there have been countless gadgets and machines.

If we do get rejected, IndieGo is a viable alternative.

[roguethunder]

Mmmm. I'm curious on quite a few points.

What parts of this HMD are "open-source", just the software? What about the optics and mechanical side of things? ;P (The driver board and panel being a sourced part, is pretty obviously not going to be. But lol. It's also not all that unique from the sound of it.)

How does the performance look thus far?
How much distortion is there, in particular?
Also rather curious on how much space the optics take up and how far from the eye they sit ^.^'

;P Honestly, a good compilation of information on this project in one place would do it some good.


^.^' I imagine yer pretty buisy pulling it together for kickstarter. Some sort of comparison of playing immersed on a HMD vs on a screen might make a good demonstrative item. Sort of a geek-sitting-slightly-too-close-to-a-decent-sized-monitor vs your HMD design comparison. ;P Hopefully to a flattering end.
Also, lasers.

[PalmerTech]

The optics and hardware will also be as open source as possible. If someone wanted to, they could purchase and fabricate all the parts themselves, the goal of the kit is to keep the costs down through group purchasing and fabrication. The original plan was to make everything out of laser cut sheets, but I might vac-form some of the parts to keep the HMD lighter; I am going to make the plans (And probably parts) for the highest possible FOV available, but if I compromise to around 95 degrees, then the weight can be cut right in half.

A compilation of all the info on this project is definitely needed, I am going to put that on the Oculus website. I am working with some friends who work in the film industry on coming up with ideas for the Kickstarter demo video, because if that can get the general idea across, I think a lot of people will want one of these! The performance is pretty good, there is no distortion in the central area of the image, though it gets worse in the periphery. Luckily, you can correct for this in software.

[davidgutierrezpalma]

if I compromise to around 95 degrees, then the weight can be cut right in half.

I think 95 degrees is a very good compromise for the consumer market (specially if we take into account the fov of the competing products) and I'm sure the weight reduction will improve the comfort. However, a larger fov could be very useful for research... as this project has been planned as a highly modular HMD, you should probably create several pledges in KickStarter to allow us choose if we want to purchase the 95-degrees-optics, the optics with a larger fov or both of them.

[FingerFlinger]

I agree; a 95 FOV with a lighter form factor will probably be better as a consumer product, but if it could be easily modded to 120 FOV, that would be perfect. I personally would prefer the larger FOV.

[brantlew]

I can't really say which I would prefer. Having experienced nothing even close to 90 degrees, it's hard for me to imagine what the difference between 95 and 120 would be. I guess software support is important, so if most software only supports up to 90 FOV then 95 seems like a reasonable size - especially if it dramatically increases the wearability of the unit.

[WiredEarp]

The higher the FOV the better, but 90+ is acceptable to me.

[Synexious]

For complete immersion, you want all you can get. I've only ever used the 51° HMZ-T1, but people here have said that even at 120-180°, you can still see there are edges. Palmer created a 270° prototype. Any chance of a Kickstarter for that? That would spread the resolution out too far, but would be great with that really hi-res panel Palmer mentioned.

[WiredEarp]

I think PalmerTech's 270 degree prototype used 3 screens in a Eyefinity type setup. It might be difficult to use a single flat screen to provide 3 views due to the optic path needing to be bent (total guess).

[Synexious]

Yes, that makes sense. He mentioned it might require a boom mount because of weight.

[JohnCarmack]

I think that one important thing that can be done to improve immersion, regardless of the field of view, is to have the limits of the field of view be defined by physical boundaries near the eye, rather than by running out of pixels at the focal distance of the display. Many of the “practical” uses of HMDs want to see every last pixel straight and true, but that leaves the obviously unnatural sense of moving borders out in the distance. If the visible edges are put between the eyes and the optics, it will scan to the brain like a real helmet / glasses / goggles / glasses that occlude the world. This unavoidably will leave display pixels that can’t actually be seen, potentially a fair number of them if you have a generous eye box, but it is probably the right call for immersion.

John Carmack

[Osobari]

Are there currently any HMDs out that feel more immersive than traditional 3D displays? Still trying to decide if it's worth investing in one, considering their price is fairly high in comparison to a 3D monitor, which would be my other choice.

[brantlew]

@John: An interesting point. I can see the logic, but it seems so tragic to give up pixels and FOV when we have so little to spare.

[PalmerTech]

Keep in mind, also, that the vertical FOV of this thing is also going to be around 90 degrees, which is much taller than most HMDs.

The 270 degree prototype is fun, but just not practical. It is big, heavy, bulky, and you need to render 4 distinct views. Even if the software supports it, the rendering load is massive.

John is absolutely right, as far as cutting off pixels go. There are benefits to having distinct edges for "normal" use, in addition to saving pixels; You get an improved senses of "Coming out of the screen!!!!" that competes well with 3DTVs. For VR use, though, having boundaries does not help with immersion. Had I not spent a lot of time with a Wide5, I might have felt differently, but it really does make a difference! Giving up pixels seems bad now, sure, but displays will only get better.

[cybereality]

95 degrees sounds pretty good to me. I think the last prototype I tried was slightly more than that, and it was more than enough. In terms of the vertical, it covered the full FOV. Granted, you could still see the edges on the sides, but it wasn't anything like the tunnel vision of most cheap HMDs. Considering most non-custom software won't even look right at super high FOVs, this is probably the best bet for the majority of people.

[WiredEarp]

@ JohnCarmack: Surely having the view stretch beyond the visible limit is more realistic, as it would be closer to what we see in reality? Although, I guess having a boundary would mean it would seem more like a scuba mask and might provide immersion in that way.

[brantlew]

@Palmer: Hey just curious. I know that your kit is not designed for 2D, but what is it like when you view the desktopt? I mean, your eyeballs don't catch on fire - do they? If you needed to go to the desktop for quick little sessions - you can manage, right? Seems like you could close one eye and just move all the windows to one side of the desktop and it would be ok. (well - despite the fact that the task bar and icons are going to be at an uncomfortable viewing angle)

[PalmerTech]

@ JohnCarmack: Surely having the view stretch beyond the visible limit is more realistic, as it would be closer to what we see in reality? Although, I guess having a boundary would mean it would seem more like a scuba mask and might provide immersion in that way.

Having the view stretch as far as possible is best, but considering the limitations we are under, better to have a physical boundary (Like a scuba mask) than very clear image borders.

Brantlew, you can definitely manage in 2D mode. I do it all the time for changing video settings and the like. Not too fun, but doable! I keep all the icons for things I access using the HMD near the center of each eye on the desktop so I can navigate to them easily.

[Omarzuqo]

Wow! It's amazing the amount of lurkers that subscribed just to post in this thread. I thought I'd be the only one.

BTW, sorry for the pointless post, I just wanted to make you know that more and more people support the project, not just the regular forum users.

[mayaman]

Palmer when will this be available? Any pics? Great work.

Will it work with any game?

[faker]

As you spoke earlier about a FOV comparison:

can you do something like that:
2nd picture on the text:

http://trackingreality.com/2012/02/14/h ... nceptions/

As its easy understandable for people that don't know all the technical terms and formulars if you do it somehow like the others FOV thingies around.

Other nice blogs on this side:
http://trackingreality.com/2012/01/04/h ... s-of-2012/
http://trackingreality.com/2012/02/26/cybersickness/

[cirk2]

Hey,
By reading the "A day with an Oculus Rift" Post I got an idea for an Kickstarter bonus:
Maybe Carmack is willing to give vou Autographed Fotos/Cards/whatever.

In my mind that sounds like a nice gimmick ^^

[cybereality]

So I won't hijack this thread, but I just wanted to mention that I am attempting to create that stereo driver I've been talking about and plan to add support for this Rift HMD.

Please check my work log thread and continue discussion there if you're interested:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14970

[optimus]

Just signed up after clicking a link from the iracing.com forums. What a great idea. I've been looking in to a 3 monitor setup for the past half year and was investigating HMDs + Freetrack a couple of months ago. Really interested to see where this is heading; what a great initiative!

[BillRoeske]

Hey Palmer,

One idea for a Kickstarter reward might be to offer fully-assembled FOV2GO Model D viewers. This is just an estimate, but the price of materials and shipping would probably put it into the middle-tier of rewards (in order for a useful amount to still be contributed to the campaign). Since the design of the Oculus Rift feels like an evolution of the FOV2GO, it seems like the software pipeline for displaying proper 3D images across both would be nearly identical. There might be some genuinely useful (although perhaps niche) overlap there, where people who wanted to support the project but couldn't afford the full HMD can still have part of the experience when and if mobile software that supports the Rift starts appearing. If you're not crazy about the prospect of assembling 25-50 FOV2GOs on top of all of the Rift orders, an option may be to offer kits.

A worthwhile low-tier reward might be a pair of anaglyph glasses. While the image quality isn't awesome, it's at least on-topic, inexpensive, and (again) potentially useful. I know I've never picked any up purely because it's just never been convenient. Someone who is just getting into the scene can access a lot of content (YouTube, 3D Vision, lots of legacy stuff) with a decent basic pair.

Anyway, just some thoughts from a first-time poster. The design of the Rift sounds both fantastic (FOV!) and extremely sensible. Coupled with the proposed price and John's hands-on testimonial, it's very easy to be excited about. I'd certainly like Canabalt HD (and any of our future Android projects, as appropriate) to support it and FOV2GO at some point. I can pretty much guarantee that I'll be picking one up as part of the Kickstarter campaign!

[Bishop51]

Hey Palmer,

Admittedly I haven't had a lot of time to spend with this due to other work commitments but I did manage to squeeze out a few concepts for you. If you like any of these or if you'd like to discuss it further please give me an e-mail denunger@worldworksgames.com (Subject: Oculus) and I'll send over the high resolution files to you. Or you can contact me during normal business hours via phone or Skype (e-mail for info).

If you don't like what I've done, no hard feelings at all Still wishing you the best of luck with this project and really excited for you!

[cybereality]

Cool designs. I especially like the RIFT logo (first one on the top-right).

However the look/feel of the "oculus" seems to be at odds with the "rift". They are very different styles. Anyway, sure Palmer will have more feedback, just my 2 cents.

[pierreye]

Oculus looks pretty cool. Like an eyeball

[WiredEarp]

I agree, I think the Oculus is great, not so keen on the Rift tho. As said, they are totally different styles... but the thinner Oculus implies greater clarity imho

[Bishop51]

There's some juxtaposition there between the logos in terms of line weight and style but its really a pretty common treatment when defining distinct brands. Oculus and Rift need to stand on their own, otherwise they become a jumble of muddy mega-logo...lol. Or at least that's the designer ramble you'll hear out of me

And yay! The eyeball in Oculus is reading for everyone! That makes me happy The line darting through the center is an abstraction of the focal plane and or FOV

Rift went through a lot of iteration but it kept coming back to some kind of human form in the negative space creating the rift. In this case, the head is silhouetted in such a way that it feels like we're looking at the back of someones head as they gaze into a wide panorama of image...again, design ramble

[3dvison]

Yes Bishop51,
That is what I thought when I saw the top pictures also.
I thought Oculus was the companys Name/Logo and that RIFT was a product made by that company.
I feel the Oculus Logo would be great to represent the company as a whole and would be printed somwhere on all thier products but then each product would also have it'a own name/model, that would also be printed on the product, in this case the RIFT.
You would print somwhere on the unit in a prominent position,using your artwork "RIFT" Than somwhere else on the unit, still using your art work but printed smaller " By Oculus"

Is that what you mean Bishop51 ?

[brantlew]

My 2 cents. The Oculus symbol has a nice clean look. At first glance it simply looks like a unique font instead of a picture. Also the O is distinctive and symmetrical and would work as a desktop icon. The Rift is a bit too pictorial and literal for my tastes. I think just a slick font (maybe continuing the motif of the sliced letters) would look good.

[PalmerTech]

Wow! It's amazing the amount of lurkers that subscribed just to post in this thread. I thought I'd be the only one.

It really is amazing! The more demand the better, can't wait to see what the final tally is.

Palmer when will this be available? Any pics? Great work.

Will it work with any game?

I want to have units shipping in summer, exact dates are still hazy. John Carmack posted a few pictures in his thread, I am pretty bad about taking pictures of works in progress. It will work with many games, but requires fiddling with now-defunct IZ3D drivers, so it is in no way a perfect solution. The ideal solution will be either support by the games themselves, or a new stereo 3D driver like the one Cyberreality is working on.

Just signed up after clicking a link from the iracing.com forums. What a great idea. I've been looking in to a 3 monitor setup for the past half year and was investigating HMDs + Freetrack a couple of months ago. Really interested to see where this is heading; what a great initiative!

Thanks! I am glad there are sim racing people who are interested, it seems like a good fit. Most of the people here are FPS players, I think, and flight sim people tend to need higher resolution for reading gauges and the like.

...FOV2GO Model D viewers...

...anaglyph glasses...

Anyway, just some thoughts from a first-time poster. The design of the Rift sounds both fantastic (FOV!) and extremely sensible. Coupled with the proposed price and John's hands-on testimonial, it's very easy to be excited about. I'd certainly like Canabalt HD (and any of our future Android projects, as appropriate) to support it and FOV2GO at some point. I can pretty much guarantee that I'll be picking one up as part of the Kickstarter campaign!

Thanks for the ideas, Bill! Oddly enough, the FOV2GO design was actually an evolution of the Rift design. I have been working on it since last summer, and after making a folding prototype out of foam core, things just went in the right direction. FOV2GO units would definitely be a cool reward! There are other people involved with the FOV2GO project, though. There has been talk of an FOV2O Kickstarter, so maybe that is how things will go down.

Anaglyph glasses are a good idea, too! Would be very cheap to send. I loved the original Canabalt, would be awesome to see that or any your new titles on an HMD! The FOV2GO in particular has so much potential as a platform for simple games.

Admittedly I haven't had a lot of time to spend with this due to other work commitments but I did manage to squeeze out a few concepts for you.

Sending you an email! I have an idea for tweaking the Rift logo, but the Oculus one is perfect. I seriously cannot imagine a better logo!


As an update, I have been working on both the Rift and the unnamed 270 degree demo unit. Nothing too pretty to look at, but I will be taking pictures on Friday so you can see how ugly the prototyping process is.

[brantlew]

I'd love to see some pics of your development units. Keep up the good work Palmer.

[fader]

Hey Palmer, just wanted to jump on and show my support, I also ended up here from iracing.com.. can't wait to see what comes out!

[mm0zct]

Mostly a lurker, and ended up here after Carmack's hands on (from his twitter feed, really excited to see he's taking an interest in immersive stereo gaming).

Coming out of the woodwork just to say I would order one in a minute for a 90+ degree FOV, and will be in for the kickstarter.

I would really like the option of an FOV over 95 degrees, and I would probably opt for the built in head tracker since I don't already have one.

Currently my 3d setup is a 22" zalman, and 2d gaming/other stuff is on a dell u2711, so 3d gaming with a greater FOV would be fantastic (obviously an HMD has other significant advantages too!).

I would definitely be up for adding support to my last big game project, and any future games I make.

[3dvison]

I would be happy with 90 degrees but now I kinda hope it will be 120 degrees.
If Carmack couuld help with a pre-warped demo for 120 degrees, I bet overtime when we learn how to warp more software, we will wish it was 120 degrees. Cyber seemed happy with the 110 degree sample unit, so that would be cool also.

[PalmerTech]

I would definitely be up for adding support to my last big game project, and any future games I make.

Great! More software is great.

I would be happy with 90 degrees but now I kinda hope it will be 120 degrees.
If Carmack couuld help with a pre-warped demo for 120 degrees, I bet overtime when we learn how to warp more software, we will wish it was 120 degrees. Cyber seemed happy with the 110 degree sample unit, so that would be cool also.

The horizontal FOV is actually smaller than vertical, I think the current one works out to about 90 horizontal, and about 110 degrees vertical. I would love to make it higher, but it would mean a huge weight increase. I will be making wider FOV lens sets available, though, so the upgrade will be there as an option for the people who want it!

[3dvison]

Great, sounds good.
I still think getting the RIFT out as fast as possible,and not just because I wanted one yesterday, but because, as you can see, people all that much faster can start tinkering with current software and writing new software that is warped for the RIFTs optics.

[optimus]

From a selfish, race-sim perspective (heh), a noticeable vertical FOV could at least be 'written off' as constrained view caused by wearing a helmet!

The larger FOV is what got me interested in the Rift. If it's a trade off between either a large FOV and high resolution then I'd prefer one direction is chosen rather than aiming for a middle-ground. The 1280*800 sounds small enough so I would hope that there's a massive FOV available. 120 should be a minimum.

[davidgutierrezpalma]

The best think about this HMD is that it will be modular and we will be able to change the optics or the panels (when a better alternative is available) depending on the intended use. For example: considering the weight reduction, I think 90 degrees should be "good enough" for everyday use... but as a developer, I would consider very useful having other additional lenses (the 120 degrees or even the experimental 270 degrees optics) that I can use for research.

[PatrickReddeck]

Palmer,

What is the current status of this project? I didn't see a website up and unless I'm missing it I have only heard 'June' as a date. I haven't seen any specs, assembly, driver support, etc. details in one reference. Is there a repository?

I have been researching the ST1080 but the lack of reviews falls under the same purview as a game release without a demo. It screams "sale as many as units possible before word gets out!" That endeavor led me to MTBS3D and your Oculus Rift. I was originally planning on getting something for game development within with-in the next month as the ST1080 should be out in quantity by then, but Oculus sounds at the top of the three reasonably priced units right now and better suited for games with head tracking and upgradable to make it useful for development.

Patrick Reddeck

[WiredEarp]

Im happy with 90 degree FOV as a minimum. I mean, this is still double everything else out there at attainable prices. Having the ability to put 120+ degree lenses in would be the icing on the cake.

[pierreye]

If Palmer can get this 5" 1080p IPS panel it would be great.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/27/lg-d ... nch-1080p/

[PalmerTech]

From a selfish, race-sim perspective (heh), a noticeable vertical FOV could at least be 'written off' as constrained view caused by wearing a helmet!

The larger FOV is what got me interested in the Rift. If it's a trade off between either a large FOV and high resolution then I'd prefer one direction is chosen rather than aiming for a middle-ground. The 1280*800 sounds small enough so I would hope that there's a massive FOV available. 120 should be a minimum.

I will try to make some 120+ lenses available, but it would not work as the minimum for most people. It is fine if you mount it to a helmet, sure, but pretty heavy with just goggle straps! And actually, assuming that the horizontal FOV is wide enough, it seems like it might even be better to have higher vertical. It lets you see the ground and sky, and that is huge.

What is the current status of this project? I didn't see a website up and unless I'm missing it I have only heard 'June' as a date. I haven't seen any specs, assembly, driver support, etc. details in one reference. Is there a repository

No website or repository yet, that is priority #1 right now. Gotta have one up before E3 so people can be pointed there. There is a lot of info spread across a bunch of different threads both old and new, but nothing solid and official.

The status of the project is that the optics design and hardware selection is basically finalized. Assembly and final form factor are still being worked on, though I have several prototype units that you could call finished, so this is pretty far along. Software wise, John Carmack has a demo that works great, and I have a hacked together setup that uses a combo of the IZ3D drivers and Nthusim to get standard commercial games working. If I had the money in my hands right now, I could be shipping in three weeks.

Im happy with 90 degree FOV as a minimum. I mean, this is still double everything else out there at attainable prices. Having the ability to put 120+ degree lenses in would be the icing on the cake.

Actually, even "double" is a pretty big underestmation. It is about twice as wide, sure, so if it were the same aspect ratio, it would be 4x the image size. However, it is taller, too! Here is a terrible, "not quite to scale but about right" comparison I made up in MS Paint:

If Palmer can get this 5" 1080p IPS panel it would be great.

Too small, unfortunately. A 5.6" or larger panel is needed, 6" is about ideal. A 7" panel could work, at the cost of making the HMD a little bit oversized. 7" 1080p panels might be our best hope in the near future, though.


I know I said I would post more pics of my various prototypes, but I had to leave them at the lab last Friday before I had a chance. Here is a consolation picture, an HMD I made attached to an ACH helmet!

[brantlew]

Wow, that comparison drawing is crazy and really puts this thing in perspective! Can't wait to check it out - especially with Carmack's demo.

[cybereality]

You call that an HMD? That's not an HMD...

[JohnCarmack]

I did a VR demo with the Rift for the Verge today, there should be some public video available tomorrow.

Twice now I have heard comments along the lines of "I am going to be able to tell my grand kids about the day I first experienced VR".

Some people seem to have more of an issue with the optics than others -- of the dozen or so people that have played with it here, a couple seemed to find it distractingly blurry.

I am really excited about getting kits into a lot of people's hands, because there will be a dozen different takes on form factor, fitting, and adjustment.

John Carmack

[FingerFlinger]

That sounds like some killer feedback; I can't wait to get my hands on this!

[PalmerTech]

Some people seem to have more of an issue with the optics than others -- of the dozen or so people that have played with it here, a couple seemed to find it distractingly blurry.

If you are able, it would be good to know if they were nearsighted, farsighted, or suffer from eye problems like astigmatism. Some of those people might be able to fix the problems with an adjustable unit, but it would be interesting if there are some people who just can't make it work properly.

Can't wait to see what the Verge has to say, they are my favorite tech blog out there.

[space123321]

I am now drooling over here!!!! Can't wait to see the video of it in action!!!

[brantlew]

I am anxious to see the video as well. It is so awesome that Carmack is on board to give this thing the exposure it deserves.

[3dvison]

I did a VR demo with the Rift for the Verge today, there should be some public video available tomorrow.

Twice now I have heard comments along the lines of "I am going to be able to tell my grand kids about the day I first experienced VR".

I am really excited about getting kits into a lot of people's hands, because there will be a dozen different takes on form factor, fitting, and adjustment.

John Carmack

OK, now I really do believe it....
Not that I did not believe in you PalmerTech all along, but with input from JohnCarmack and an ID demo, it is just at a whole new level now.
I do not mean to keep harping on it, but I really do believe, what I said before is true. People will buy the RIFT just to play an ID demo that is coded for it.
People have been buying new computers or video cards just so they could play the latest ID offerings for a long time, and it will be the same with the RIFT...Only a whole new form of gaming is about to begin. And the last time that happened, I do believe JohnCarmack was there...Wolfenstein 3D (VR edition) anyone..Ha Ha

[PatrickReddeck]

Any thoughts or experience using Arduion for head tracking? Unless latency is really bad or compatibility doesn't work it looks like a pretty good $45 solution.

http://www.arduino.cc/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaB ... 1231185714

http://hacknmod.com/hack/automatic-head ... h-arduino/

Palmer

I'm almost done putting a doc together. I'll PM to get some clarification on some points before posting.


Patrick Reddeck

[optimus]

That looks like a fun project! The discussion thread mentions it's programmed against a 'SimConnect' API. I haven't heard of that one before. Is SimConnect as well-adopted as the FreeTrack or Eagle Dynamics protocols? facetracknoir is an opensource project; would it be feasible to submit code to the project that allows it to track the HMD (i.e. switch from face mode to Rift mode)?

Or maybe glue some googly-eyes to the visor so that it gets picked up... ?

[WiredEarp]

The Arduino stuff looks cool, but still has gyro drift problems. No magnetometer to automatically recalibrate...

[davidgutierrezpalma]

If you are able, it would be good to know if they were nearsighted, farsighted, or suffer from eye problems like astigmatism. Some of those people might be able to fix the problems with an adjustable unit, but it would be interesting if there are some people who just can't make it work properly.

Will the final units be adjustable? If not, that would be a show-stopper for me...

[brantlew]

Congratulations Palmer! The article is up.
http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/30/30521 ... -with-john

Oh, and thank you John for backing this with the considerable resources at your disposal. Please convince Palmer he needs to commercialize this device! Seriously this endeavor could take off like nVidia did in the 90's. As you have mentioned before - we're hitting a wall of diminishing returns with graphical fidelity. Immersive gaming is the next big leap and all the necessary technology is coming together at this very moment.

[space123321]

The link is not valid?

Edit - found it!

http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/30/30521 ... -with-john

I am crying now like a little spoiled kid - I WANT IT NOW!!!! lol!

[BillRoeske]

Congratulations, guys! That was a nice preview. The light weight has me almost as excited as the FOV and price tag.

It looks like the device used in the preview is running at 60Hz. Palmer, is that the same as can be expected in the initial version, or is there a chance for a higher refresh rate?

Thinking about display latency in our engine (and I hope this isn't considered a hijack, just not sure where else to put this and the Rift has gotten me thinking about HMD programming again), I'm wondering if it makes sense to punch a hole for camera control straight into the rendering thread rather than the main simulation thread. Right now what we have is pretty a standard fixed time step simulation thread/interpolated render thread setup, which includes interpolating the camera based on controller input to the simulation. Theoretically, having the motion sensors directly drive the camera on the rendering thread should eliminate (at least) one whole frame of latency...

[brantlew]

Hey Palmer, just curious. I know you've had no luck finding the perfect 7 inch HD panel for your kit. What are the reasons that you have not pursued dual 3.5 inch panels? Something like this...
http://gizmodo.com/5802576/toshibas-got ... na-display

If you mounted them side by side it would have the same optical design with at least the same if not higher resolution and better aspect ratios. Plus you would automatically gain 2D support as well. Is it mainly software issues of driving and synchronizing the displays - or are there other reasons why this solution is not attractive?

[MikeFesta]

Very cool work Palmer. I found out about it from an article about John Carmack. I just wanted to register my interest in the kickstarter and I look forward to getting a unit to play with this summer.

I've been interested in VR headsets for a while, but only bought my first one (HMZ-T1) at the beginning of the year. It is a pretty cool device, but it definitely has some issues. I've modified mine to mount to a bicycle helmet with headphones, which solved most of the comfort problems, but I can never seem to get the optics just right. I'm happy to see that your device supports such a wide field of view, that was my biggest disappointment with the sony unit.

I'm a software developer and hobbyist 3D animator (using blender). Let me know if there is anything that you need help with.

[rajveer]

If you are able, it would be good to know if they were nearsighted, farsighted, or suffer from eye problems like astigmatism. Some of those people might be able to fix the problems with an adjustable unit, but it would be interesting if there are some people who just can't make it work properly.

I have an astigmatism, hope this doesn't rule me out, I've been lurking and looking forward to this HMD since you announced it! Would contact lenses help the people with eye defects?

[JohnCarmack]

Congratulations, guys! That was a nice preview. The light weight has me almost as excited as the FOV and price tag.

Thinking about display latency in our engine (and I hope this isn't considered a hijack, just not sure where else to put this and the Rift has gotten me thinking about HMD programming again), I'm wondering if it makes sense to punch a hole for camera control straight into the rendering thread rather than the main simulation thread. Right now what we have is pretty a standard fixed time step simulation thread/interpolated render thread setup, which includes interpolating the camera based on controller input to the simulation. Theoretically, having the motion sensors directly drive the camera on the rendering thread should eliminate (at least) one whole frame of latency...

I am doing that in D3. It has to be disabled during cut scenes and death, but it makes a contribution to the quality feel.

John Carmack

[cybereality]

MTBS has an overzealous word filter that seems to be ruining the Verge link, try this:

http://vrge.co/LHW1BG

[3dvison]

MY OH MY..Ha Ha

If you watch that video, the guy(Ross), just had his mind blown...LOL
I think he likes it, much, much, more than he is letting on. Unless he is a world class actor, when he takes of the RIFT, you can tell by the look in his eyes, that he had a real blast using it. The look was, "what the hell was that, I've never seen anything like that before"...

I hope I don't sound like some JohnCarmack fanboy because I am not. Just always liked his work.
But I knew when he first posted on these forums that somthing was gonna go down.
This is such a huge help to Palmer and the RIFT..Can't wait to get a RIFT and any ID software that will run on it.

[space123321]

I agree - my favorite part is the end of the video when the HMD is removed and you can see his facial expressions as he tries to re-orient himself to the real world. The classic rubbing of the eyes, etc I remembering experiencing my first time I experienced Dactyl Nightmare so many years ago lol!!!

[3dvison]

Hey Palmer,
Won't you need to be taking pre-orders soon. Don't you need the money to start buying part's...Not so gentle nudge.
Also, what tracker was JohnCarmack using ? Is it a tracker we can buy ourselves somwhere easily ?

[lnrrgb]

My cash is ready, and waiting..... so I'm calling DIBS right now.!

[fraherd]

My cash is also ready, and waiting..... so I'm calling 2nd DIBS right now.!

[optimus]

Saw one of the IT guys at work checking out the Verge clip at lunch today. It felt like hearing your favourite underground band being played on commercial radio - but in a good way!

Is the unit being demo'd at E3? I want to poke some Aussie game journos to check it out when they head over.

[JohnCarmack]

I am giving private showings with it all day Tuesday at E3. There might still be a slot or two free; journalists can contact Bethesda if they want to try to get fit in.

I am trying hard to make sure they all understand that the display is Palmer's, but I'm sure there will be some mis-representations that I built the whole thing...

I will have a Sony HMZ-T1 there as well, which I may use as a side-by-side comparison to show the difference in FOV. The color and pixel switching times are still much better on the Sony, but for a gaming experience the Rift is in a class by itself.

John Carmack

[pitrz]

BIG congratulations to PalmerTech to this device and also thanks to John for providing the marketing boost!
I am waiting for the Kickstarter project and looking forward to spend some hard earned cash to get this kit! And that is something when i say it, since i've kicked my VR tech junk addiction quite some time ago...

BUT i am afraid the same problem still remains as with all the rest of 3D / VR devices that ever came out . Acces to content.
I would say that i've spent 90 percent VR time tuning and configuring all the stuff, including getting the games etc to work and 10 percent actually looking at or playing something.
Even if i really wanted to "consume" i've spent time on the desktop quitting programs, navigating through menus etc. That was never the experience i craved, i wanted to dive in and walk on a beach, then go to elsewhere to play a simple game, then zoom to some gallery. Simple stuff, seamlessly interconnected that you can spend hours in because you are always exploring something new or going to your favorite places.
All the devices that came out always came out with some drivers and content, which kinda work but you were limited by several factor - including lifetime of the device producer.

I think what needs to be created is this:
1, Open standardized format + toolchain to create content and publish it online in an interconnected way - There have been plenty tries but the right balance between features / compatibility / ease of content creation have never been struck yet
2, A Viewer of the standardized format with a totally open API for 3D devices - hack in you gyro, powerglove, just whatever
3, A Portal to all this content, including other 3D content types like youtube 3D videos etc. The Portal itself must be created in the same technology so the users can really zoom seamlessly between the available content.

I always realized that individual bits and pieces of this have been out there. The VRML/X3D stuff back then wasn't actually conceptually a bad idea after all. It could all have been done using that but the format got fragmented by individual implementations (like HTML heh) and the device support wasn't there. The content creation tools were really bad too.
Interestingly enough, the content is still out there online (it is all extremely lame by todays standards) and i had once build a proof of concept of the 3D Portal on top of Google App Engine. I had a lot of fun doing that back then but never got all the pieces working together. I was very serious about this idea and we actually did a pitch of it to Nvidia people, just before they started to sell their 3D glasses thing. Back then i was thinking about using Unity 3D as the core technology, because i loved the content creation tools. But it had other problems.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, i haven't visited MTBS3D for a long time and it all just started flowing out when i touched the keyboard.
I am really looking forward to PalmerTech's device - my money is waiting. I might even revisit the old ideas and start working on them once the device arrives.Good luck!

[space123321]

I wish we could have a Second Life experience in 3d with an HMD - I have spent hours walking around Second Life wishing to experience an environment true VR...

[brantlew]

Yeah, ironically we should have our own Second Life island and be meeting up there instead of forums - us being the perfect target audience and all. Too bad SL support for this kind of thing is really lame. They even killed the "puppeteering" interface that would have been so cool to develop for.

[cybereality]

@pitrz: I totally agree with you, but I think things are changing. We are not there yet, but lots of things happening recently are leading toward VR taking off for real this time. We have a standard protocol for stereo 3D now (HDMI 1.4a) which greatly improves interoperability of different devices. This, in turn, has allowed mainstream consumers to experience 3D with things like the PS3 and any recent high-end HDTV (which has support for 3D). We have seen motion controllers get popular in a big way with Wii/Move/Kinect on the consoles, and developments on the PC side with the Hydra and upcoming Leep. We have major players like Sony who released an HMD with positive press/buzz attached to it and seemingly good sales. We have 3D capabilities on YouTube, one of the most popular sites on the web. Really, we are in a good place.

At this point what we really need is some developers to come up with a REAL VR experience. Even just a tech demo would be enough to get people interested. Maybe the 3D/tracker support in DOOM 3 will be that demo we are all waiting for. Or maybe it will come from some indie/homebrew developer. It doesn't really matter. Its just that we are so close to having all the necessary technology. But even when we get there, what use is it without great software to run on it? So I am very much with you on that point. But we have to just keep moving along and hope things pick up steam.

[hast]

@pitrz: I totally agree with you, but I think things are changing. We are not there yet, but lots of things happening recently are leading toward VR taking off for real this time. We have a standard protocol for stereo 3D now (HDMI 1.4a) which greatly improves interoperability of different devices. ... At this point what we really need is some developers to come up with a REAL VR experience. Even just a tech demo would be enough to get people interested.

Just this morning I saw an Engadget article about the Google World Wonders project (http://www.google.com/culturalinstitute/worldwonders/) and that seemed to be a pretty perfect fit for something like this that "normal people" could enjoy. I don't really think it would bring VR helmet into the home of everyone but it could definately make them interested in the idea. For it to be completely engrossing there would have to be a real 3d environment with video and ambient sound. But that could be a later problem.

I'm thinking that part of the reason VRML never took off was that navigating a 3D world with a 2D interface is generally quite suboptimal. It's fun for games, but in that case the point of the game is typically to navigate and interact in that world. VRML tried to make the web into the "real world" without actually solving any problems. In fact, it typically turned a perfectly useable web store or online gallery into something that was less fun to use. (Since computers and browsers were pretty slow back then it also tended to turn everthing into a slide show.)

The biggest thing anyone can do right now is probably to promote open solutions. That could give people some common ground to work towards and also give new enthusiasts something specific they can buy to get started. But it's still quite early and there will have to be a lot of trial and error before we start to get something that is a easy to use common ground. (Compare to how the early days of PC hardware 3D graphics cards worked.)

[PalmerTech]

Sorry for not replying for a while, getting ready for SID Displayweek and fielding a huge flood of emails and PMs from people who read the Verge article has taken up a lot of time!

Will the final units be adjustable? If not, that would be a show-stopper for me...

They will definitely have adjustable focus/dioptre. This first run will probably not have easily adjustable IPD, but if the optics are collimated properly, that is fixable almost entirely in software.

Very cool work Palmer. I found out about it from an article about John Carmack. I just wanted to register my interest in the kickstarter and I look forward to getting a unit to play with this summer.

I'm a software developer and hobbyist 3D animator (using blender). Let me know if there is anything that you need help with

The best thing you can do is spread the word! If I need any 3D animation, I will keep you in mind. I tried to learn Blender years back, could not wrap my mind around it!

It looks like the device used in the preview is running at 60Hz. Palmer, is that the same as can be expected in the initial version, or is there a chance for a higher refresh rate?

There is a chance for a 75hz refresh rate. The control board company promises it can be done, but they also say some things about my current VGA boards that are not quite true.

If you mounted them side by side it would have the same optical design with at least the same if not higher resolution and better aspect ratios. Plus you would automatically gain 2D support as well. Is it mainly software issues of driving and synchronizing the displays - or are there other reasons why this solution is not attractive?

Finding control boards for those panels is hard, they do not use something common like LVDS. Even if I were to get custom boards made, ($$$$$) there are reasons to go with one panel. It lets you get the screen area closer together (All LCDs have some kind of border), it makes alignment and calibration easier and more robust, and it lets you have a perfectly synced image, even over a wireless video link. If suitable panels and control boards can be worked out, I would love to use them.

I have an astigmatism, hope this doesn't rule me out, I've been lurking and looking forward to this HMD since you announced it! Would contact lenses help the people with eye defects?

Contact lenses will fix things just fine. Glasses are not a good idea, though.

Won't you need to be taking pre-orders soon. Don't you need the money to start buying part's...Not so gentle nudge.
Also, what tracker was JohnCarmack using ? Is it a tracker we can buy ourselves somwhere easily ?

Yes, I do need to get it up soon. The goal was to launch the Kickstarter today, but circumstance has conspired to kill that! Not going to launch it any later than June 15th if I can at all help it. I need the extra time to set up the rewards properly, which will include bundles with Doom 3 BFG and the Hillcrest tracker that Carmack has been using. I want to get the ball rolling ASAP, but not before I get things worked out so I am not stuck with a Kickstarter that does not reflect the potential of the project.

BUT i am afraid the same problem still remains as with all the rest of 3D / VR devices that ever came out . Access to content.
I would say that i've spent 90 percent VR time tuning and configuring all the stuff, including getting the games etc to work and 10 percent actually looking at or playing something.

I know that feeling! I never have time to actually play, too busy making revisions. The others are right, we are moving in the right direction with HDMI 1.4, and content is more and more common. We are definitely not as far as we could be, but given 5 years, who knows!

[3dvison]

Hey Palmer, or whoever else might know.
Will the full version of Doom 3 BFG have the code to use the RIFT with it ? Or will it just be a the Demo Version that will have the RIFT/HMD Code ?

[PalmerTech]

John can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the PC version of the full game supports it.

[3dvison]

John can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the PC version of the full game supports it.

Hello JohnCarmack,
Will the Field of View warping be a user adjustable setting in Doom3 BFG ?
Or even just a couple higher (FOV) option selections in a menu.
Was thinking when the 120-270 Field of View RIFT add-on lenses become available, we could be up and running in ID software..

[JohnCarmack]

I don't think there are plans for a demo version of the BFG edition. I'm probably going to just buy 100 copies wholesale myself and send them to Palmer for bundling with the first round of kits.

The fov is controlled by a console variable and the warping is done with a fragment program that you can replace if you want, but you can't go past 180 degrees with a single rendering, and d3 won't have support for multiple offset views. Until we get higher resolution panels, spreading things out over an even larger fov probably isn't a good trade off. It would be nice to have a little bigger screen so you could get the same 110 degree fov horizontally that you get vertically, and remove the need to mask the optics horizontally, but really, it is already extremely immersive.

I hope to also include a smaller R&D testbed program with source, but I will need to clear that with Zenimax HQ, so I can't promise it.

The Rift V1 is not going to be a consumer HMD, but it is going to be a godsend for interested hackers.

John Carmack

[3dvison]

Thanks JohnCarmack,
An HMD option in the full game is all I wanted. No demo is fine with me John. After all your support & help, I was definitely getting the full version as a nod of thanks to you anyway.

With that said,
Hey PalmerTech,
How do I get on the first 100 list...LOL
I don't know how you are going to do it ? Long time posters like cybereality and others need to be at the top of the list, I just hope I can get squeezed into that first batch of 100 units somehow.

[davidgutierrezpalma]

Surely there will be a pledge in Kickstarter (limited to 100 units) that includes the HMD, the headtracker and a copy of "Doom3 BFG Edition". As usual in Kickstarter, the first 100 people who "buy" the pledge, get the reward

[lnrrgb]

well I called dibs.....( just sayin'......) I am pretty sure that is an internationally accepted, binding contact, for most any playground..... I may be wrong though.

[PalmerTech]

When the project launches, I will post a link here right away. Anyone subscribed to this thread should easily be in the first 100, since they will have the link before Google indexes it or any of the tech blogs post it.

I hope this is a successful project, but I don't think it will go over 100 units without any promotion!

[BillRoeske]

Subscribed, ready, and waiting!

That said, I want to throw my support behind two sentiments I've seen on this thread already.

First, I do hope that you do turn a small profit from the kits. It sounds like you've devoted a bit of personal time to this and have come up with something good, possibly great. You should totally be compensated for that. My impression is that this is going to be an assembly-required kit, so I'm sure there will be some post-release support work to be done, too. If nothing else, I'd view it as an investment in you continuing the good work with new displays, optics, connections, battery power, weight reduction, and so on. At the very least give us access to a tip jar or something.

Second, I'd imagine that right about now there's a huge amount of pressure/temptation to shove it out the door. If there are things (like the reliability of the display driver board) that you aren't happy with yet, we can deal with small delays. From a purely pragmatic standpoint, it's much easier to one thing ahead of time than troubleshoot 100 units out in the wild. Finally, given that this could be somewhat disruptive, the rewards for getting it right out of the gate are probably worthwhile.

[brantlew]

I "second" both of Bill's points.

[cybereality]

Personally, I'm in no rush. I've been waiting for a real VR kit since the 90's, an extra month or so ain't gonna kill me.

[3dvison]

Don't kill yourself Palmer.
I thought the first batch was going to be a low profit do-it-YO-self kit. You really do need to up the profit .
But profit or not, I thought for sure there would be problems & hickups when I get a RIFT kit. WHY ? Because It's a kit, I got it for problems.
I also thought there would be no support to speak of, I thought support was going to be us, helping each other on these forums, or on a RIFT website forum.

I just hope no one wants too much from Palmer. Such as 1-800-tech support, not for this first run of RIFT's in a Kit anyway.
Palmer, just include one BC headache powder with each RIFT Kit sold, and then turn your phone off...LOL

Untill you say different, I will think of the RIFT production line as a one man show.

[MrFujisawa]

Very excited by this!

[davidgutierrezpalma]

+1 for both BillRoeske's points.
+1 for "I have been waiting for something like RIFT for many years, so I don't mind waiting another additional month".

I'm not a "hardware guy", but I won't have any problem with DIY kits as long as they can be assembled easily: I don't have any soldering skills nor the ability or knowledge to place the lenses manually in the precise angle/position required to get the best effect, so I hope this type of skills are not necessary. I wouldn't have any problem with "simple operations" like "securing these pieces together using screws" or "plugging this cable into that jack", but (while I won't expect a polished product for end-users) I hope these DIY-kits are being built thinking in people like me: people with a basic knowledge about electronics, but without the manual ability to do "complex operations" such as soldering.

[V73v3n]

I'm so excited for this, I have been waiting a long time for a true VR experience. Thank you PalmerTech for creating this and progressing VR tech. Thanks to John as well for the software support. Good luck with the Kickstarter.

[Bartdesign]

Count me in on the kickstarter! This is to good to be true. Doom on an HMD. A dream that comes to reality! So awesome.

Can't wait.

[Torchedini]

This project looks really good, I'll back you on kickstarter for sure.

[Tinus]

Just dropping by to say I'm in for the kickstarter when it happens. I look forward to running my work-in-progress games on the Rift.

[Damo3D]

yeah Im super stoked for this peice of kit. You are about to change the VR landscape and its about time someone stepped up to do it right. Maybe other companies with follow suit and understand IMMERSION is where its at. Ill be supporting your kickstart as well as picking up a unit if possible. Also, if you are still looking for a logo I would be happy to submit some concepts over the next week (Im in Japan until Wednesday but when Im back in Canada Ill throw some your way - unless you have something already - you can PM me any art needs you have I would be glad to be a small part of this)

I do have a few questions if you have the time to answer them:

1) What is the process for getting existing games to work with the unit - eg: Flight Simulator X, or Just Cause 2 for example. Is it simple or do games need an entirely new driver..etc

2) When released what would one use with it? Would DOOM be our only demo for a long while (with hopefully Rage to follow) or would we be able to look forward to a slate of working titles (this question is kinda like my first one)

Either way Im excited, this combined with a motion chair you would never see me again!

[vulkan]

I think, and flight sim people tend to need higher resolution for reading gauges and the like.

Nah, we can use zooms for that. Most important for me has been good contrast and colours.

[cybereality]

@Damo3D: We should be able to use the IZ3D driver with it, though it may not render the aspect ratio perfectly. Should still work for a lot of games though. That is what I used on an earlier prototype I tried. I am also in the process of writing my own 3D driver, which will have specific support for the Rift (correct aspect ratio, pre-warping, etc.). However I am just in the early stages of this, and it will probably be a few months before I have something ready for the public.

[AntonieB]

@demo3d: I guess when more people get their hands on this thing a lot of software / usecases will emerge automaticly. There are probably lots of developers / wizkids under the interested user base.

I for one am excited to get started working on some projects I have a development background but not excactly in the HMD / VR scene.. but willing to learn so my guess is that lots of people will be sharing software / drivers / tests on the mtbs3d forums and or 'The Rift' homepage (if there is one)

Now let's hope the kickstarter starts soon

[3dvison]

Palmer,
With John's warping, have you had a look at one of your 2D HMD's but with a much more massive FOV ? No 3D, but with a massive FOV and a full screen resolution at 16:9, It would be awsome. Even without 3D. Or was warping never a problem that needed to be corrected with the 2D version ?

[brantlew]

@3DVision: Palmer can correct me if I'm wrong but 2D is not really an option at this time. The unit is optically fixed for 3D viewing only. John's warping only applies to in-game stereo and would not carry over into the desktop.


cybereality's post got me thinking - there are several developers that will probably start hacking together display drivers and post-processing warpers for the Rift, but it will probably take a long time for this stuff to mature. The fastest way to get good support for the device in many games would be if DDD or IZ3D were to include support for it. I wonder if we could lobby them to add that? I for one, would pay a significant surcharge for this upgrade.

[Gauntlet]

@3DVision: Palmer can correct me if I'm wrong but 2D is not really an option at this time. The unit is optically fixed for 3D viewing only. John's warping only applies to in-game stereo and would not carry over into the desktop.

I don't have any experience with driver interception on Windows, but I developed something that might help on Linux two years ago. It was a Linux-addon for multi-head projection on curved surfaces.
The software takes the backbuffer before it gets rendered on to the screen an you can warp it using custom geometry (or through Bezier-curves). Because it runs in the background, it affects every picture - desktop/applications/games. If the need es there, I could ask my boss, if it would be okay to release the source. The codebase hasn't changed in years, and I'd love to make it compatible with the Rift.

Ah yeah, I found some old pictures: http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/479717/1 ... e?h=48fca5
You see a colleague of mine even testing Quake with it (those are old random shoots taken during the development of the project).

Can't wait for the Kickstarter to start

[3dvison]

@3DVision: Palmer can correct me if I'm wrong but 2D is not really an option at this time. The unit is optically fixed for 3D viewing only. John's warping only applies to in-game stereo and would not carry over into the desktop.

I think Palmer has enough to do. I did not mean it to be an option for sale now. Just wondering if he looked into it himself.
Desktop..LOL..270 degrees, No thanks. I ment in-game warping. I was thinking of 2D warping to fix the fisheye look from large FOV optics. I did not know Johns was setup for 3D only.

Anyway, this is drifting off topic of the 3d RIFT.
Gauntlet, wow. That looks like it must be put to work with the RIFT somehow.
brantlew, Your DDD & IZ3D 3D warp driver is a great idea.
The warping, is the last piece of the puzzle.

[optimus]

I've seen convex screen demos where another app is used to warp the picture in order to create seamless blends and curves. However I can't find the name of this software at this time. I believe it's well known in flight sim hobbyist circles. Only thing I can remember is that it uses a chequerboard pattern to calibrate the output. In the short term this might be a tool to let all apps and the desktop 'fit' the Rift.

[cybereality]

The fastest way to get good support for the device in many games would be if DDD or IZ3D were to include support for it. I wonder if we could lobby them to add that? I for one, would pay a significant surcharge for this upgrade.

Not sure if you heard but IZ3D is basically out of business. They are claiming they will release the source-code if they get... wait for it... $800,000 in donations from the community. I plan on supporting this effort, but there is probably no chance in the goal being attained by the end of this month. But if it does work out, I will plan to help support the project and I hope some other developers here would do the same. Then we could add support ourselves for all this funky stuff we want to do.

[WiredEarp]

@ Optimus - its probably NTHusim (sp?) or Warpalizer.

[mickman]

RIFT is not so bad .. does it stand for anything ?

R.I.F.T ? Real Inner Face Technology ( could swap Real for Retina too.. since its a hot word these days )


So Rift can go along way as it is ...


you were also asking for help in design areas ... I use Maya 3d (Industry standard modelling and animation software ) for creating VFX in games and film etc..

if you need something made up let me know ... I'm guessing you need proof of concept with a product de-construction of the product and actually product demonstrations etc.. yes ?

Mick

[brantlew]

@optimus: Isn't that just for a single screen rectangle though? The warper would need to warp two independent rectangles. Don't know if Warpalizer is that configurable.

@cybereality: Too bad about IZ3D. Well we could still organize a campaign here and on the DDD forum. Having DDD support would be huge in terms of versatility. Does anyone here have any "pull" at DDD? Hell we could start a KickStarter just for that. I would put $100 in the pot for DDD support.
PS. The purple chic is my favorite of your avatars.

[mickman]

Just wondering if the project has been launched on KickStarter yet & if so.. what is the title ? I'd like to make a contribution ...

[PalmerTech]

Wow, so much feedback! Sorry for the hit and run post, but I am on a so-far exhausting trip to Boston, and I really need to sleep.

I made a site, added some info, and most importantly, a newsletter function! I will still be posting the Kickstarter link here first, but the newsletter is a great way to make sure you are up to date.

Here is the site: http://oculusvr.com

Thanks to Brantlew for the sweet logo.

Will reply to everyone when I can!

Best,

Palmer

[imPsimon]

Palmer, you should really add a media page to the website.

[CyberVillain]

The fastest way to get good support for the device in many games would be if DDD or IZ3D were to include support for it. I wonder if we could lobby them to add that? I for one, would pay a significant surcharge for this upgrade.

Not sure if you heard but IZ3D is basically out of business. They are claiming they will release the source-code if they get... wait for it... $800,000 in donations from the community. I plan on supporting this effort, but there is probably no chance in the goal being attained by the end of this month. But if it does work out, I will plan to help support the project and I hope some other developers here would do the same. Then we could add support ourselves for all this funky stuff we want to do.

I would demand to see lots of code before paying, C++ projects tend to grow into freaks if the team isnt experienced together.

[AntonieB]

Probably a lot of work but my guess is somekind of opensourced driver instead of DDD or IZ3D on the long run is the best solution.

In current situation you are always depending on support from 2 commercial companies that will never ever have the same targets / ideas as the opensource community.

In the mean time something like a game engine with dedicated support is awsome and very important to showoff what is possible. The cooperation of John Carmack can be very important here. and the Doom3 engine is also very open with lots of tooling so anyone interested in working on / making some project can use the Doom3 tools

In other words all looks great and I can't wait to get my hands on this hardware and see what we as a community can create.

[brantlew]

Love the logo too, but that was Bishop51's doing.

Probably a lot of work but my guess is somekind of opensourced driver instead of DDD or IZ3D on the long run is the best solution.

In current situation you are always depending on support from 2 commercial companies that will never ever have the same targets / ideas as the opensource community.

In the long range an open source solution is best for everyone but might take at least 6 months to become even partially workable. There are hundreds of details to research, implement, debug, and then customize per game. Tridef already has a solid, tested solution in place and existing support for hundreds of games. They would only need to add the final warping transform to their side-by-side view. As a beta feature my guess is that it would take them a week or less to implement this.

We should at least ask them whether they would consider adding experimental beta support. A campaign on their forum would be a simple way to voice our interest in this feature. A petition and a pre-release unit from Palmer might be all that is required to motivate them. But we are still a very small percentage of their customers which is why I also suggested a kick-starter campaign. If Palmer sells 100 of these kits, I am pretty sure that all 100 of those buyers are going to want game support. If everyone contributed $40 that would be $4000. That's enough to pay for two weeks of a senior developer's salary. So at least (in theory) we could use our group power to pay for the development of the feature.

[AntonieB]

We should at least ask them whether they would consider adding experimental beta support. A campaign on their forum would be a simple way to voice our interest in this feature. A petition and a pre-release unit from Palmer might be all that is required to motivate them. But we are still a very small percentage of their customers which is why I also suggested a kick-starter campaign. If Palmer sells 100 of these kits, I am pretty sure that all 100 of those buyers are going to want game support. If everyone contributed $40 that would be $4000. That's enough to pay for two weeks of a senior developer's salary. So at least (in theory) we could use our group power to pay for the development of the feature.

Good idea, lets already start a forum thread to get things rolling... I guess already asking for such a feature can't do wrong. (I don't know the 'technical' details about the warp / parameters so I think somebody with more details should start a thread there)

[brantlew]

We should get PalmerTech's thoughts and blessings before we initiate this, since he might be called upon to advise Tridef and supply technical support and hardware to them.

[AntonieB]

We should get PalmerTech's thoughts and blessings before we initiate this, since he might be called upon to advise Tridef and supply technical support and hardware to them.

I agree, well I will for sure not post something on the TriDef forums without any details / a device myself anyway.

[cybereality]

Yeah, I think its a great idea to see what DDD thinks. Best probably for Palmer to start the thread since its his project. But I could contribute $100 to the effort.

[Caillin]

This panel looks like it could be a great contender for a future HMD device: http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/5/306674 ... ppi-ah-ips

[AntonieB]

Just to let you guys know: (an interview with John Carmack with mention of Oculus Rift)
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/35 ... ty-gaming/

mayb there should be a 'coverage' site somewhere where we can collect all kind of information about this project

UPDATED:
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/06/john- ... ew-inside/

[Okta]

While its great that this is building momentum i feel it might be worth while to explain clearly the method used and the resulting split screen. I think if the publicity builds you could see 'new players' laying down cash not realising they need to work around this HMD's design of having no 'normal' mode. Maybe a caveat note on the kickstarter page.

[brantlew]

Just to let you guys know: (an interview with John Carmack with mention of Oculus Rift)
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/35 ... ty-gaming/

mayb there should be a 'coverage' site somewhere where we can collect all kind of information about this project

Carmack is not prone to hyberbole so it is really exciting to hear him say that outside military systems, this is the best VR demonstration in the world.


Edit: Another even better link (courtesy of dewdewcaca)
http://kotaku.com/5916210/carmack-being ... est-people

Listening to these interviews really demonstrates what a great asset it is having Carmack on-board this project. He just brings a huge amount of credibility and technical know-how to the whole endeavor of VR and immersive gaming.

[3dvison]

Listening to these interviews really demonstrates what a great asset it is having Carmack on-board this project. He just brings a huge amount of credibility and technical know-how to the whole endeavor of VR and immersive gaming.

Yup brantlew,
I don't think you could find a better person on the planet to work on VR or anything that needs brain cells. In the video's you can tell he has two things we always needed in a person to move VR forward #1: His brain is lightning fast, and #2: His heart is in it. This guy with an idea in that head of his, is unstoppable.
And of course we have Palmer Luckey. With him we get, Brains, Heart and Luck.

[Krisper]

I have been watching this thread for a while, I was in from the first post. Finally a wide FOV HMD that I can afford, and a game supporting it! Can't wait for the Kickstarter.

[Guspaz]

RIFT is not so bad .. does it stand for anything ?

R.I.F.T ? Real Inner Face Technology ( could swap Real for Retina too.. since its a hot word these days )

Retinal Immersion Factor Technology

Retinal Immersion Factor Theatre

Retinal Immersion Factor Transfer

Retinal Interface Technology

The T words are hard. Transporter? Transformer? Transcriber? Transmitter?

etc.

[naif]

I'd be in for this too.

I have an eMagin Z800, and did some development work with its 9DOF IMU, as well as 3D sample applications (testing convergence and such). The z800s 42 (45?) degree FOV was quite limited, so I never really stayed with it... I would be way in for a high-FOV unit.

As an aside - I wear glasses (nearsighted, about -3 diopters) and the Z800 adjustments were enough to let me use it without glasses. (I also have an icuity M920 - it also allows me to set the focus for no glasses.) Would be nice if it had some adjustment (even if disassembly required.)

[android78]

Once again, the RIFT is getting press, but the press is thinking the headset is made by John:
http://au.ign.com/videos/2012/06/06/ign ... ce-e3-2012
Either way, it's amazing how much acceptance this is getting just because of who is promoting it. I guess that the work John has done to make Doom render correctly for the display has a lot to do with it.
GOOD JOB GUYS!!!

[cybereality]

Those interviews with Carmark are gold! I can't think of someone better to promote this product.

Also:

Really Impressive Future Technology

[brantlew]

Once again, the RIFT is getting press, but the press is thinking the headset is made by John:
http://au.ign.com/videos/2012/06/06/ign ... ce-e3-2012
Either way, it's amazing how much acceptance this is getting just because of who is promoting it. I guess that the work John has done to make Doom render correctly for the display has a lot to do with it.
GOOD JOB GUYS!!!

The press don't listen carefully, but Carmack was very clear about crediting Palmer. And Carmack seems to have done a lot of independent work as well and deserves plenty of credit. It's incredibly fortunate that the Rift came along at just the right time to synchronize with Carmack's work. It's a perfect marriage of independent hardware and software research.

[fractaloop]

Everyone seems excited about the possible gaming aspects of the wide FOV, especially with Carmack dedicating his time and resources to it. If he puts his weight behind something it seems to really push it into the mainstream.

As a software developer, I hope this continues to gain traction. i'm looking forward to the idea of having a spherical window manager to code inside while travelling with my laptop. The immersion of an isolated environment in common spaces would be a wonderful freedom from the noise of cubicles and airplanes. Of course, this dream requires a great deal more resolution before text is legible at workable resolutions, but the first 2D window managers were at now-painful resolutions.

In the meantime, I can't wait to try Doom 3D

[3dvison]

The Hillcreast tracker has been tweaked to johns spec's, for use with an HMD, Doom3 BFG, of course has been optomized by John himself to be used with an HMD and Palmers RIFT is the goto HMD.
Doom3 BFG is going to be out of this world, when played on a RIFT.

Palmer you have worked so long on the RIFT and John now on his end. Set the RIFT at a price that covers for this work.
I thought John posted about buying 100 Doom 3 BFG's out of pocket, to ship with the first 100 RIFT's. The price for a RIFT should cover atleast Johns cost for the games, and all your work on the RIFT also. Well, some of your work, the RIFT would be another $20,000 HMD, if we had to pay for "ALL" of your work.

[PatrickReddeck]

Regarding the pricing of Rift on Kickstarter, for those who aren't familiar with how it works you are free to donate thousands of dollars for your part of the contribution if you choose and if Palmer sets up a tier.

Also keep in mind Palmer will own the rights to a name, thanks in large part to John Carmack, that is getting a lot of attention. That name can then be commoditized in various different ways to allow supporters and fans to hand over cash.

[3dvison]

Regarding the pricing of Rift on Kickstarter, for those who aren't familiar with how it works you are free to donate thousands of dollars for your part of the contribution if you choose and if Palmer sets up a tier.

Also keep in mind Palmer will own the rights to a name, thanks in large part to John Carmack, that is getting a lot of attention. That name can then be commoditized in various different ways to allow supporters and fans to hand over cash.

I get that, but dosn't he still set the price for a single unit to be sold at ?
If so, that is the price I was talking about.
What good would it be, if he gave away units, in the hopes of a "Fan" giving a big donation one day.

No need for me to talk about this anyway...
Palmer is much smarter than me. He'll know how to price it correctly.

[blitter]

A couple of questions from a MTBS newbie interested in developing for the RIFT:

- Is the kit spec on the RIFT webpage an all-inclusive list? Will the kit include an option for the "wireless video link" and if so, are there more details on that?
- Is head tracking also included as an option in the kit or will a solution for that be required independently?

Just gathering up as much technical info as I can, so I can get a jump start on developing a game targeting this device while waiting for the Kickstarter to run its course Thanks!

[BillRoeske]

Eurogamer has their preview up now.

[BillRoeske]

Hey blitter,

From what I've been gathering from recent coverage, it sounds like the initial Kickstarter run will probably have one tier that is just the ready-to-assemble RIFT kit and another tier that will bundle a tracker and a copy of Doom 3 BFG. Wireless video and higher resolution displays have been mentioned as possibilities, but it's sounding like that might be a more realistic expectation for a version 2.0 kit.

This is all just a reasoned guess, though, so don't take any of it as Gospel until you hear it from Palmer. I imagine things will probably be shifting around quite a bit behind the scenes right up until the Kickstarter is a go.

Hope that helps!

[blitter]

Thanks BillRoeske! Assuming that wireless video and head tracking will be necessary as third-party components, what is the status on the development of so-called "Wireless HDMI" technologies? How significant of a hit to latency would there be when applying such technology in combination with head tracking? Are there any numbers / Have there been any experiments done with this yet?

[JohnCarmack]

I warned Palmer ahead of time that it was a foregone conclusion that some of the media would report the Rift as my work, despite my vey explicit description otherwise. Sometimes their eyes are just glazed over by the time I start talking about the actual display I am showing, as opposed to all the general lead up, and they miss the critical bit, and sometimes it is the push to make a more sound bite friendly article title.

In any case, I repped the Rift pretty hard through a dozen presentations to a lot of important people. The original plan was that I was just going to do them on Tuesday and bail from E3 after that, but the response was so strong, and the buzz was getting around, so I wound up giving another day full of demos on Wednesday.

The reaction was honestly better than I expected -- only one person found it distractingly uncomfortable (due to their eyelashes brushing the lenses), and every one of the journalists left enthusiastic about it, with several bordering on awestruck. I would have been happy with an 80% win rate.

[3drocket]

Just came across this thread today and thought the project was worth doing a quick logo concept for.

Cheers,
3drocket

[hast]

I saw another video interview at GiantBomb today: http://www.giantbomb.com/e3-2012-john-c ... w/17-6164/.

And there are several examples in these videos of journalists listening and trying to make enouraging noises at the appropriate moments. But I have to say that having a video is really nice because that way we viewers can at least listen to what the developer is saying without relying on a filter of what the reporter took away from it. (It would be awesome to see a similar "interview" or discussion between Palmer and John where they talk about the technology but where they actually understand each other and can ask followup questions.)

Regarding the price on the Kickstarter. I just figured I should say that for me I'd rather see Palmer charge a bit more per unit to ensure that he doesn't get into unforseen economical problems when it is scaled up. Also, remember to look into shipping prices world wide before because I'm sure I'm not the only one who is interested in that. (Other Kickstarters that ship products have charged a bit more for world wide shipping.)

Also JohnCarmack: I've seen you mention in several videos that you haven't gotten translation tracking to work properly with the unit. One thing I wanted to try with it was to use a Playstation Move or similar device to optically track the 3d location of the unit and try to use that in game. Have you already tried that and found out that it doesn't work for some reason? (The USB webcam has too much lag perhaps?)

[SinSilla]

Media Coverage is exploding right now! (Kotaku, Giantbomb, Eurogamer, Neogaf, Golem.de, avsforum, pcgameshardware.de and many more...)

This is so so awesome, what a wonderful coincidence that John showed up here. Even if almost no one gets the crediting quite right atm (what may be a good thing at this point in time) thats probably the very best thing that could happen to us VR Folks, even more than Sonys move with the HMZ-T1.

Good job guys, good job!

[Guspaz]

only one person found it distractingly uncomfortable (due to their eyelashes brushing the lenses)

Which brings to mind something that's been nagging at me, how does this sort of thing work with those of us who need glasses? For myopia, for example. Does the Oculus Rift have diopter correction?

[BillRoeske]

blitter,

High resolution, low latency wireless video has actually been gaining a decent amount of traction lately. I'm not an expert, but from what I know most recent stabs use 5GHz radio signal. Because it's so high frequency, it can carry a lot of data very quickly. Tradeoffs include a relatively short range (around three to five meters) and a signal that's easily blocked by obstructions.

Probably the easiest example to point to is Nintendo's upcoming Wii U console, which uses wireless video to stream game play to the screen on the GamePad controller. They claim effectively no latency, which lines up with other comments I've seen that the overhead is about 1ms. Various recent home theater and networking equipment has also been shown off using similar high-frequency radio for wireless video, too.

So, I wouldn't call it common yet, but things are looking up. That Nintendo is effectively pinning the success of the new console on the technology speaks volumes about their confidence in its reliability and lack of latency. Overall I agree with John and a few others that the ultimate way to go will be the equivelant of a smartphone hooked directly to the HMD. But, wireless video certainly is useful, especially if you have a smaller arena and just want to throw gobs of desktop computing power at it.

[rajveer]

only one person found it distractingly uncomfortable (due to their eyelashes brushing the lenses)

Ooh ooh Palmer, can you make the distance from out eyes adjustable for those with long eyelashes??

Actual question though, how many of them found the resolution a limiting factor for the immersiveness of the HMD? Sounds like everybody you showed it to was impressed and it wasn't really an issue?

[Alkapwn]

I really hope that even with all the publicity that this has gotten lately, that I'm able to get in on the Kickstarter order. Seems like there's more and more people getting excited about this every day.

I have one question about the screen that's currently being used. I'm fine with it being low res as I know that the sense of immersion is more important than screen resolution. I was wondering however, what happens if during the process of the Kickstarter funding or in waiting for the Doom release, somebody comes up with a screen solution that yields a much higher resolution. Would the kit design of the Rift allow for a screen swap? I'm really new to this kind of stuff, but am excited about this project almost to an unhealthy level. The thought of FINALLY being able to be immersed in a virtual world as apposed to watching it through a window, has gotten me insanely geeked!

[brantlew]

Here's a funny writeup. This author seems to be the most impressed of any of the reviewers I have read so far. Just made me laugh when he referred to "Lucky Palmer". At least he tried...

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/07/tech/gami ... ighlights/

[cybereality]

Eurogamer has their preview up now.

Wow! They actually linked to this MTBS thread!!!! Impressive.

[clancey]

Lurking as well. I am subscribed so I can jump on the kickstarter. I am most interested in the expandability. How difficult would it be to swap in a higher resolution LCD? I would be willing to pay more for a higher resolution!

[druidsbane]

Not to be a another me too, but I want to pitch in that I'm in for every iteration you produce and hope the responses here give you the drive and numbers you need! Will be a lot of fun writing toy worlds and 3D engines once again to play in, maybe even create something akin to "Snow Crash" one day... we have the tech, just need to get it out to more people affordably Prior experiences with VR were the exact opposite of what I had hoped for but the responsiveness and FOV of this kit gives me hope in my lifetime

[DragonM]

And there are several examples in these videos of journalists listening and trying to make enouraging noises at the appropriate moments. But I have to say that having a video is really nice because that way we viewers can at least listen to what the developer is saying without relying on a filter of what the reporter took away from it. (It would be awesome to see a similar "interview" or discussion between Palmer and John where they talk about the technology but where they actually understand each other and can ask followup questions.)

Personally I prefer to read what Carmack writes. While his speech is very information dense, it sometimes gets a little tangled. His writing is very clear though. But if the alternative is listening to him vs reading some journalist who may or may not actually grasp the subject, I guess I'll listen. I got a lot out of the interview Giantbomb posted.

I'm glad to see so many things coming together, and I'm glad Palmer is pushing ahead with the project, despite the issues. "The perfect is the enemy of the good." --Voltaire Let's have the good this year, and worry about the perfect later. Sure, I'd love for Samsung to buy about a million meters of Corning's new 100 micron flexible glass and use it as a substrate for 440 ppi 4k2k AMOLED displays with submillisecond latency. Wrap-around hi-res lag-free display goggles would be fantastic. Until then, well, a Rift will do nicely.

DM

[android78]

... Sure, I'd love for Samsung to buy about a million meters of Corning's new 100 micron flexible glass and use it as a substrate for 440 ppi 4k2k AMOLED displays with submillisecond latency. Wrap-around hi-res lag-free display goggles would be fantastic....

I've had a dream like that since I was about 10yo (even though AMOLED hadn't been invented yet)... now over 20 years later, I am still amazed it hasn't happened yet. The thinking was that they would pretty much be being used by everyone by now. Although, I think these days we really need to be pushing for QLEDhttp://www.qdvision.com/qled-technology displays instead of AMOLED

[paratay]

My first post here on MTBS and had to join in with this product, sounds Great! I just like to know PalmerTech, which LCD panel and Controller are you using, is it from Vitrolight?

The 5.6inch Panels I tested had Major Ghosting issues. ( http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-6inch-TFT- ... 45fd0f9722 )

They look great with images, however when there is any motion due to it's slow response, there is significant ghosting.

You mention you are using a 6inch Panel and I would greatly appreciate if you can provide a little more info on them, thanks again! and good luck

[Chriky]

I'm not sure if those are the screens paratray but Carmack did mention (and Palmer confirmed) - http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=14967 - that it is reasonably slow at switching colours (20ms) which can cause some ghosting. It didn't sound that bad though. It's not something anyone has mentioned in the actual Doom demo, I don't know if John actually put in the motion blur to minimise it or not.

[hast]

I found a post on Hack-A-Day which discussed these glasses as well: http://hackaday.com/2012/06/07/where-is ... y-display/. It seemed like a good fit for the Oculus Rift as that's a community about modding and hacking devices so I posted a link to this forum thread as well.

[hast]

Which brings to mind something that's been nagging at me, how does this sort of thing work with those of us who need glasses? For myopia, for example. Does the Oculus Rift have diopter correction?

I asked Palmer that in a disussion thread on The Verge article, which I think was one of the first: http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/30/30521 ... -with-john.

Anyways his answer was that it will have adjustable diopter correction and it will be "virtually limitless". From what I understood it may take a screw driver or something to adjust so it may not be something you want to do if you have a lot of people over. Then it'd be easier to use contact lenses if you have.

[zoost]

Hi everyone. Very exciting all this. I think i have read most interviews with JC and the threads here and I'm very keen on experiencing the Rift with DooM myself. I noticed that someone on slashdot mentioned that:

According to an engineer who worked on the Sega VR project, [sega-16.com] there's a very serious problem with this sort of device:


There is a danger with HMDs: the IPD (inter-pupilar distance) must be properly set. IO Glasses gets around this by having a really big aperture. Sega had a thumbwheel to adjust the IPD. Here is the danger: if the IPD for the LCDs are wider than the user IPD, you force the user’s eyes to look outward. This is the opposite of cross-eyed. This can really stress the weak muscles around the eyes, and can cause permanent damage in less than 30 minutes. What I heard was the Sega lawyers brought up the liability issue on the eye damage. That is the reason I heard the project was canceled. Take it with whatever block of salt you want.

http://www.sega-16.com/2006/07/intervie ... -engineer/

Is there anyone who can confirm / deny this?

Anyhow, I'm willing to take my chance

Thanks for all your dedication an hard work.

[hast]

I saw similar claims on some comment thread that Boing engineers who worked with design in VR environments suffered permanent eye damage in the early 90s. But I couldn't find anything online to support it.

Considering the number of head mounted displays available for casual use this is something we'd heard of by now if it was a problem. (Vuzix have been selling their devices for quite some time now.)

[bcpk]

Is there an audio element to this that is yet to be announced? Given that the demo was done using a Logitech gaming headset (not famed for their fidelity), I suspect audio is less of a priority. Yet it is just as capable of immersion. If you don't believe me, just look up "binaural" on Soundcloud (eg. http://soundcloud.com/carrionfeast/rain ... nd-cs10-em / http://soundcloud.com/carrionfeast/bris ... e-roland-1).

The trouble with truly accurate spatial audio is that each person's ears respond to frequencies differently, and these responses inform our positional inferences. However, even an averaged approximation of these responses (called Head Related Impulse Response / http://recherche.ircam.fr/equipes/salle ... index.html) is much more impressive than simple, immutable stereo audio.

There's some more info about spatial audio at the following links: http://www.ausim3d.com/about/AuWeb_perception.html http://www.myears.net.au/pdfs/white.pdf (2nd is a brochure; take their claims with a pinch of salt).

Considering the impressive cues I've picked up in Quake Live, I imagine John Carmack already has a good grasp of spatial audio but I'd be happy to explain what I can. I did my fourth year project (ECE) on the subject so it's something I'm pretty passionate about!

[optimus]

Re: potential health issues, here's an article I remember reading on the ABC website a while ago:
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/32814.html

[Guspaz]

Which brings to mind something that's been nagging at me, how does this sort of thing work with those of us who need glasses? For myopia, for example. Does the Oculus Rift have diopter correction?

I asked Palmer that in a disussion thread on The Verge article, which I think was one of the first: http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/30/30521 ... -with-john.

Anyways his answer was that it will have adjustable diopter correction and it will be "virtually limitless". From what I understood it may take a screw driver or something to adjust so it may not be something you want to do if you have a lot of people over. Then it'd be easier to use contact lenses if you have.

That's good to hear; last time I tried taking off my glasses and using the dioptre adjustment on a camera viewfinder, I found that the dioptre adjustment on cameras was a joke, not nearly enough to correct typical myopia.

[hast]

Re: potential health issues, here's an article I remember reading on the ABC website a while ago:
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/32814.html

Seems like that's from the same source, Mark Pesce. Reading the comments there (and the Wikipedia article for the term http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binocular_dysphoria) suggest that this is pretty much something only Mark Pesce is concerned about. Importantly there seem to be no peer revied evidence of the condition. (So there is not only no evidence that it can be permanantly damaging, there is no evidence that it actually happens at all.)

In fact, Googling around a bit more there is a post from 94 on Wired (again by Mark Pesce) that claims that the effect exists and references a study performed by a Californian think tank called SRI on behalf of Sega. But no results were ever published and Sega has not released any information. People at SRI which were contacted then did not want to comment further than to say that there were "unresolved problems" which could mean anything.

This does of course not mean that there can be problems with it. But if no effects have been found in the last 20 years it seems reasonable that they are at least not as obvious as what Mark Pesce claims.

[zoost]

Re: potential health issues, here's an article I remember reading on the ABC website a while ago:
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/32814.html

Seems like that's from the same source, Mark Pesce. Reading the comments there (and the Wikipedia article for the term http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binocular_dysphoria) suggest that this is pretty much something only Mark Pesce is concerned about. Importantly there seem to be no peer revied evidence of the condition. (So there is not only no evidence that it can be permanantly damaging, there is no evidence that it actually happens at all.)

In fact, Googling around a bit more there is a post from 94 on Wired (again by Mark Pesce) that claims that the effect exists and references a study performed by a Californian think tank called SRI on behalf of Sega. But no results were ever published and Sega has not released any information. People at SRI which were contacted then did not want to comment further than to say that there were "unresolved problems" which could mean anything.

This does of course not mean that there can be problems with it. But if no effects have been found in the last 20 years it seems reasonable that they are at least not as obvious as what Mark Pesce claims.

Thanks for clearing that up! Lets get it on!

[gurehamu]

Re: potential health issues, here's an article I remember reading on the ABC website a while ago:
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/32814.html

Seems like that's from the same source, Mark Pesce. Reading the comments there (and the Wikipedia article for the term http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binocular_dysphoria) suggest that this is pretty much something only Mark Pesce is concerned about. Importantly there seem to be no peer revied evidence of the condition. (So there is not only no evidence that it can be permanantly damaging, there is no evidence that it actually happens at all.)

In fact, Googling around a bit more there is a post from 94 on Wired (again by Mark Pesce) that claims that the effect exists and references a study performed by a Californian think tank called SRI on behalf of Sega. But no results were ever published and Sega has not released any information. People at SRI which were contacted then did not want to comment further than to say that there were "unresolved problems" which could mean anything.

This does of course not mean that there can be problems with it. But if no effects have been found in the last 20 years it seems reasonable that they are at least not as obvious as what Mark Pesce claims.

I'm finding similar information. An interesting article I found did have quotes from one of the SRI researchers (Tom Piantanida) who said that the hardware at the time wasn't fast enough and he experienced perception issues after wearing the headset for 8 hours(!?!), but made no mention of permanent damage.

http://www.osa-opn.org/home/articles/vo ... 9IXOeJYvKw

[BrianSmith42]

Replace the gyros & accelerometers with a 3d camera system (like the kinect) mounted to the goggles. Use the change in view and distances to "static objects" to figure out the position and orientation of the head. gyros are only going to give you good data for orientation, a stereoscopic camera systems will let you bob your head up or down or side to side to see around objects and will add to the realness.

After all mounting a stereoscopic camera systems is going to be a next step for augmented reality use anyway so why not use it to track head position and kill 2 birds with one piece of hardware.

The question is can it be tracked with low enough latency and accurately enough, I suspect it can.

(When i say "static objects" I mean any point that appears to not be moving aka ignore objects going by a car window for example. yup Head tracking via stereoscopic view should work in moving vehicles unlike a gyro/accelerometers based system.)

[pierreye]

Palmer might have a problem with normal user expectation as they might compare this to commercial HMD or big screen tv. The support might overwhelm him to design a v2 in the future and also of noob question such as why my desktop 2D is split in both eye (due to the device only work in SBS).

[brantlew]

DDD support for Rift moved to new topic

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=15027

[PalmerTech]

Oh man, this is what I get for going to SID and having not time for the forums. Long post ahead! To all the people signing up to let me know you support this project: Awesome, glad to have you on board! Responding to each and every one of you in this post would make it crazy long, but I really appreciate the support.

I do hope that you do turn a small profit from the kits. It sounds like you've devoted a bit of personal time to this and have come up with something good, possibly great. You should totally be compensated for that. My impression is that this is going to be an assembly-required kit, so I'm sure there will be some post-release support work to be done, too. If nothing else, I'd view it as an investment in you continuing the good work with new displays, optics, connections, battery power, weight reduction, and so on. At the very least give us access to a tip jar or something.

A lot of feedback on this, so I think this is what I will do: Set things up so that rather than allocating money for time on a laser cutter/CNC machine/other costs, I get enough money to buy my own. That way, I can work on my future units cheaply and more easily, so everyone benefits! If you want to leave money as a tip, Kickstarter allows you to send extra money on top of the reward. I will figure out some way for people to get recognized if they do that.

I'm not a "hardware guy", but I won't have any problem with DIY kits as long as they can be assembled easily: I don't have any soldering skills nor the ability or knowledge to place the lenses manually in the precise angle/position required to get the best effect, so I hope this type of skills are not necessary.

The kits will not require any soldering, it should be well within reach of anyone capable of, say, taking a phone apart and putting it back together. You will have to be careful with the lenses, but getting them placed correctly is not too hard. You just need to make sure they are aligned with the faceplate properly.

1) What is the process for getting existing games to work with the unit - eg: Flight Simulator X, or Just Cause 2 for example. Is it simple or do games need an entirely new driver..etc

2) When released what would one use with it? Would DOOM be our only demo for a long while (with hopefully Rage to follow) or would we be able to look forward to a slate of working titles (this question is kinda like my first one)

Existing drivers like IZ3D and TriDef DDD drivers will allow things to work mostly correctly. IZ3D has a mode that allows for proper aspect ratio that only works for some games, and distortion can be taken care of with Nthusim. Of course, you still only have mouse emulation for head tracking, so not at all optimal. Cybereality is working on a driver with proper 3D and head tracking support, but like he has said, it will be awhile before he finishes. As far as future titles, there are some things in the works, but I would rather wait for those developers to announce things themselves than have me spilling the beans.

RIFT is not so bad .. does it stand for anything ?

Not at the moment. Still trying to figure out if it is the "Rift" or the "RIFT". The choice to go all caps is mainly just for easy laser-cut readability on the unit. Thanks for the offers of help, I might need it when making assembly instructions. The Kickstarter should launch in one week.

This panel looks like it could be a great contender for a future HMD device: http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/5/306674 ... ppi-ah-ips

Yeah, saw that panel at SID, it looks amazing. Would need two of them, though, not quite big enough for single panel use.

- Is the kit spec on the RIFT webpage an all-inclusive list? Will the kit include an option for the "wireless video link" and if so, are there more details on that?
- Is head tracking also included as an option in the kit or will a solution for that be required independently?

The $500 version will not include a wireless video link, but it will be available as an option, probably for about $200. Seems expensive, but you get a good wireless link (Less than 1ms latency) and a battery pack to power both the link and the HMD. The hardware inside is nearly identical to this Sensics unit that costs $2,000! http://sensics.com/products/low-latency ... ess-video/
Head tracking is also not included in the base price, since a lot of people will probably want to use it with trackers they already own. One of the Kickstarter bundles will include a Hillcrest labs tracker and Doom 3 BFG edition for a little more.

Does the Oculus Rift have diopter correction?

It has diopter correction, you can set the focus during assembly. It would be better to wear contacts, though, so the lenses can be properly collimated.

[quote="clancey"Lurking as well. I am subscribed so I can jump on the kickstarter. I am most interested in the expandability. How difficult would it be to swap in a higher resolution LCD? I would be willing to pay more for a higher resolution![/quote]

It is not a matter of difficulty or even cost, at this point. Better panels that are suitable for this design are simply not available at the moment. Within the next 12 to 18 months, though, there are panels coming out that are 4x the resolution! Upgrading to use those panels should be a piece of cake.

My first post here on MTBS and had to join in with this product, sounds Great! I just like to know PalmerTech, which LCD panel and Controller are you using, is it from Vitrolight?

The 5.6inch Panels I tested had Major Ghosting issues. ( http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-6inch-TFT- ... 45fd0f9722 )

They look great with images, however when there is any motion due to it's slow response, there is significant ghosting.

Yes, they are those panels. I am not buying them there though, for several reasons. I can get smaller and higher performance control boards from elsewhere, and they have sent me used panels before when I purchased as "new". On top of that, there are several different revisions of this panel, and I want to use the latest one. The response is still not perfect, but with the latest control boards and panel revision, I am getting extremely good results. I would love to be using a better panel, but there is nothing out there that can match this resolution at a reasonable price. The only things out there that would be suitable would push the price of the Rift into the tens of thousands of dollars.

I saw similar claims on some comment thread that Boing engineers who worked with design in VR environments suffered permanent eye damage in the early 90s. But I couldn't find anything online to support it.

Considering the number of head mounted displays available for casual use this is something we'd heard of by now if it was a problem. (Vuzix have been selling their devices for quite some time now.)

The thing is, diverging your eyes is very, VERY uncomfortable to do. If you have any sense at all, you are able to tell that something is wrong, and adjust the IPD. Aside from that, modern HMDs are no less safe than a normal monitor; You should really take a break every once in a while to give your eyes a chance to relax and adjust, nothing new. That said, the potential for a lawsuit is one reason that I am making this available as a kit instead of a "real" product.

Is there an audio element to this that is yet to be announced?

I love audio as well! There is a great VR game project called "Wild Skies" being done by some students at USC, they are going to do most of their binaural audio recording with a dummy head I made.

The thing is, I am a hardware guy, and this is a hardware project. Most of this audio work is done on the software side, and the best I could do would be to include some good headphones, something many people will already have. Perhaps selecting an specific headset that works well with the Rift would be a good idea, so we are all working with the same hardware?

Replace the gyros & accelerometers with a 3d camera system (like the kinect) mounted to the goggles. Use the change in view and distances to "static objects" to figure out the position and orientation of the head. gyros are only going to give you good data for orientation, a stereoscopic camera systems will let you bob your head up or down or side to side to see around objects and will add to the realness.

This will happen at some point, but we cannot do it with low enough latency yet, and that will not change in the short term future. We already have lots of other good tracking options, so not really a priority.

Palmer might have a problem with normal user expectation as they might compare this to commercial HMD or big screen tv. The support might overwhelm him to design a v2 in the future and also of noob question such as why my desktop 2D is split in both eye (due to the device only work in SBS).

Yes, that is the main reason I am doing this as a kit. I want it very clear on the Kickstarter that this is for the DIY/hacker/enthusiast crowd, not a mainstream product. If they miss all those clear warnings and then complain about having to put it together or something, I am not going to waste much time consoling them. If the HMZ-T1 is any indication, people will start modding and improving these as soon as they get them, and I hope to put those improvements to use in a second revision.

[yomer]

Palmer,
Let's suppose that in 1 year, an LCD with the same size, but double the resolution is available. If we fund your project and buy your kit, will we be able to mod the new screen, or is there a controlling unit in the way of replacing the screens?

I admit that with what I read on your post above, I only got the part the about not being able to use a better panel at the moment. I was just wondering if the first revision will be made to allow this future LCD upgrade. Do you use a video scaler?

I don't mean to sound rude, I'm really interested in your project. It's just that I would feel better investing in your project if your kit was easily modifiable in terms of the screen and it's resolution. I wouldn't be able to shell out an additional $500 for a second revision to gain better resolution and more compatibility.



Edit: For an example I would like to use http://www.techradar.com/news/tablets/l ... ay-1035567 That's a 2,560 x 1,600 panel, or 1280x1600 per eye.

Would we be able to fit a slightly larger LCD like Toshiba's by adjusting the optics?

[JohnCarmack]

I said "Toshiba 2.5k LCD panel demo" at least 20 times at E3. I hope they send me some

Being a little larger would fill out the entire horizontal lens viewing area, making it a full 110 degrees horizontal and vertical FOV. Some vertical resolution would be wasted, but you would wind up with around 1200 x 1200 per eye. Do want.

John Carmack

[PalmerTech]

@Yomer: The control board is flashed with firmware that is specifically made to drive this panel, so if you upgrade the screen, you will also need a matching control board.

That Toshiba screen is one I have mentioned before, and yes, it would be an easy upgrade. You would just need to make a few small physical modifications to the HMD so it will fit, and adjust the IPD in software to scale to the width of the new panel. If that panel is released, I would probably sell an at-cost kit that existing users could buy to upgrade their own HMD.

[3dvison]

I said "Toshiba 2.5k LCD panel demo" at least 20 times at E3. I hope they send me some

Being a little larger would fill out the entire horizontal lens viewing area, making it a full 110 degrees horizontal and vertical FOV. Some vertical resolution would be wasted, but you would wind up with around 1200 x 1200 per eye. Do want.

John Carmack

Any word on when the public could buy one ?

[PalmerTech]

Not until next year, at least. They won't be selling them with controller boards, either, they will probably be in Android tablets or phones.

[PatrickReddeck]

Before I make inquiries, has anyone looked at MicroOLED or Olightek? They make micro OLED displays.

[PalmerTech]

Microdisplays are not very suitable for high FOV. That is why even expensive $30,000+ units like the Nvis SX111 only have a horizontal field of view of 76 degrees, and weigh several times what the Rift does.

[bcpk]

A standard set of headphones sounds good. Happily, unlike mini displays, there are plenty of cheap and great sounding headphones out there, eg the Monoprice 8323 for $25 or Panasonic RP-HTF600 for around $35.

[fireslayer26]

@John Carmack- So at what point are you going to personally fly the Toshiba headquarters and demo the rift for them and tell them you REALLY REALLY need some of their panels???

[PatrickReddeck]

Microdisplays are not very suitable for high FOV. That is why even expensive $30,000+ units like the Nvis SX111 only have a horizontal field of view of 76 degrees, and weigh several times what the Rift does.

I initially thought the larger resolution ( 2,560 by 2,048 pixels per display) would help with that. Probably moot as that resolution must be expensive.

[yomer]

@John Carmack- So at what point are you going to personally fly the Toshiba headquarters and demo the rift for them and tell them you REALLY REALLY need some of their panels???

^^^
My thoughts too..

-If the mountain will not come to Mahomet, Mahomet must go to the mountain.-

[yomer]

Did anybody post this already?

http://www.j-display.com/english/news/2 ... 20604.html

A 2.3" display with a resolution of 1280x800. That would mean 3116x1947 give or take for a 5.6 inch.

BTW, http://www.j-display.com is the business that now manages Toshiba's LCD display technology. So any confirmation of a prototype or developer kit will have to go through them.


Edit: To avoid adding a new post: http://www.uswitch.com/mobiles/news/201 ... ay_killer/ 1920x1080... can the kit also be adjusted to a smaller screen? This will allegedly be ready for integrator products in Q4 2012.

[MSat]

Hello, all! This is my first post here, after being lured in from the article posted on Hack-A-Day, and reading/viewing every article/review/interview I could find. Woohoo!

First off, THIS.. IS.. AWESOME! I always thought the only real issue with low adoption of 3D HMDs was the low resolution and high price. The last device I paid any attention to was some unit from the late 90s with (IIRC) 320x240 displays. My own 3D experience is limited to my sister's 3D TV, and my now torn to pieces Nintendo VirtualBoy - which I maintain is the coolest console ever made (pathetic, I know).

When John Carmack touts something as being cool, or the future of gaming, people tend to listen, and so do I. Having him support what looks to be some great hardware from Palmer with his expertise can most likely only be described as a match made in heaven (or the gates of hell opened on Phobos ). It's quite clear not that there's so much more to this tech than I originally thought, so I have much to learn (anyone have any web sites to recommend on related optics?).


@PalmerTech

First of all, great work! I have a feeling there will be a demand quite beyond 100 units, so hopefully another round won't be too far behind. Anyway, I do have a question regarding the optics: Are they completely custom? Is it possible to hack something together from off the shelf camera/telescope/microscope/binocular/etc parts? Would you be willing to give us a more in-depth look at the inner workings of your device? Inquisitive minds would like to know!

@JohnCarmack

It would seem that with native support for this hardware in the 3D engines from all the major players would be the biggest enabler for wide-spread adoption of this tech. If history of this industry proves anything, it's that people follow your lead. Just wondering, would it be better still to have integration optimized at the driver level, or does it not really make a difference?

Also, your explanation on the lag of motion tracking was extremely interesting and insightful. It sounds like you have made significant progress in this area, but it leaves me wondering, from your experience, in what ways is motion tracking currently lacking? It sounds like front-to-back, side-to-side translation does not currently exist. How much of a detriment is this to the experience? What sort of movement tracking do you believe is important for the immersion factor?



-Mark

[WiredEarp]

@ Yomer: that panel looks great, two of those could probably be used in a HMD and it would avoid all the issues with requiring warping, since the resolution is a standard resolution per eye...

[blitter]

The $500 version will not include a wireless video link, but it will be available as an option, probably for about $200. Seems expensive, but you get a good wireless link (Less than 1ms latency) and a battery pack to power both the link and the HMD. The hardware inside is nearly identical to this Sensics unit that costs $2,000! http://sensics.com/products/low-latency ... ess-video/
Head tracking is also not included in the base price, since a lot of people will probably want to use it with trackers they already own. One of the Kickstarter bundles will include a Hillcrest labs tracker and Doom 3 BFG edition for a little more.

Awesome that the wireless link is essentially the same tech as the Sensics unit-- I had thought that would be my only practical option and winced a little at the price point, so thanks for finding an affordable solution! Looks like the Hillcrest bundle is the one for me

Perhaps selecting an specific headset that works well with the Rift would be a good idea, so we are all working with the same hardware?

I'll throw in my two cents here: I'm hoping to build a totally wireless version of this, and my personal choice of headphones is the Sennheiser PX-360 BT. Very comfortable, lightweight, battery life gets me through an entire day at work, and the sound quality is excellent to my ears even in spite of it being Bluetooth audio (YMMV, http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-PX-360 ... B003V9RWGW)

[PalmerTech]

Here is a thread I made discussing funding sources, if people could give input, that would be great: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=15030

A 2.3" display with a resolution of 1280x800. That would mean 3116x1947 give or take for a 5.6 inch.

Edit: To avoid adding a new post: http://www.uswitch.com/mobiles/news/201 ... ay_killer/ 1920x1080... can the kit also be adjusted to a smaller screen? This will allegedly be ready for integrator products in Q4 2012.

Two of those 2.3" displays could make for a very nice HMD. They probably won't be available for some time, though, if at all.

As for the LG panels, I saw those at SID, they were amazing. You would need two of them, though, since the screen is a bit small. They will have them available as engineering samples this year, but the people at LG I talked to said that products using the screen will not be shipping till Q2 2013. Our little market is not big enough to do anything but wait for cell phones to push the commercialization, so it would be at least a full year till we could even think about using them.

@PalmerTech

First of all, great work! I have a feeling there will be a demand quite beyond 100 units, so hopefully another round won't be too far behind. Anyway, I do have a question regarding the optics: Are they completely custom? Is it possible to hack something together from off the shelf camera/telescope/microscope/binocular/etc parts? Would you be willing to give us a more in-depth look at the inner workings of your device? Inquisitive minds would like to know!

The optics were originally more complicated, I eventually had to sacrifice some FOV in order to keep the current unit as light as it is. This also had the advantage of making the optics a lot easier to assemble, phew! They are actually pretty simple, and I will be posting all the information when the project launches. Since it is a kit, you will get to see all the internals for yourself anyway!

Awesome that the wireless link is essentially the same tech as the Sensics unit-- I had thought that would be my only practical option and winced a little at the price point, so thanks for finding an affordable solution! Looks like the Hillcrest bundle is the one for me

Perhaps selecting an specific headset that works well with the Rift would be a good idea, so we are all working with the same hardware?

I'll throw in my two cents here: I'm hoping to build a totally wireless version of this, and my personal choice of headphones is the Sennheiser PX-360 BT. Very comfortable, lightweight, battery life gets me through an entire day at work, and the sound quality is excellent to my ears even in spite of it being Bluetooth audio (YMMV, http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-PX-360 ... B003V9RWGW)

One problem that occurs to me is that the Hillcrest tracker is not wireless, at least, not the one being bundled with the Rift. That still leaves you with a USB cable, hmm... There are lots of other trackers that work wirelessly though, so unless you specifically want to play Doom 3 BFG, it might be better to use something like a Wiimote or PS Move anyways.

[davidgutierrezpalma]

@ Yomer: that panel looks great, two of those could probably be used in a HMD and it would avoid all the issues with requiring warping, since the resolution is a standard resolution per eye...

The warping is caused by the optics, not by the odd resolution / aspect ratio.
However, I would also like to use these panels (if possible) at some point in the future...

[paratay]

@ palmerTech: Yes, they are those panels. I am not buying them there though, for several reasons. I can get smaller and higher performance control boards from elsewhere, and they have sent me used panels before when I purchased as "new". On top of that, there are several different revisions of this panel, and I want to use the latest one. The response is still not perfect, but with the latest control boards and panel revision, I am getting extremely good results. I would love to be using a better panel, but there is nothing out there that can match this resolution at a reasonable price. The only things out there that would be suitable would push the price of the Rift into the tens of thousands of dollars.

Thanks for the info PalmerTech , I would greatly appreciate if you can let me know where you sourced the Controller board and Newer version of the LCD as I couldn't find any other place to get them and Vitrolight is a little iffy to say the least even though the panels I got of him were in good order. The only problem was the controller board and not being able to extend the LVDS cable!! it is so small there is no way to extend it. So would greatly appreciate more info on where I can get the new panels with a better controller board as I am doing a few projects with robotics, thanks again!

[Johnny-Mnemonic]

One problem that occurs to me is that the Hillcrest tracker is not wireless, at least, not the one being bundled with the Rift. That still leaves you with a USB cable, hmm... There are lots of other trackers that work wirelessly though, so unless you specifically want to play Doom 3 BFG, it might be better to use something like a Wiimote or PS Move anyways.

Interesting, I have two wireless trackers from hillcrest, they definitely produce them.
I think with Carmack's attention to the tracking lags - wired is probably better.

[bcpk]

It's a shame that the Tested.com guys didn't appear to get a look at John's prototype at E3, as I suspect they would have been very interested. Will Smith (the tech blogger, not the actor) is making his own third-person HMD/pod camera backpack rig which I suspect would gel nicely with the massively increased FOV of the Rift.

http://www.tested.com/search/?term=third+person

[PalmerTech]

Split the discussions started by the VReality shill into another thread here: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=15035

In related news, I am in the midst of filing all the business paperwork. Incorporating in California is expensive, yikes, but better than trying to dodge the law!

[Alkapwn]

I don't know if this has been posted yet or not, as it might be a really noob question, but I'm still fairly new to this.

Once I get a Kickstarter kit, with headtracker and a copy of Doom 3, is there anything else that I would need computer wise to be able to use this?

The reason I ask is that my computer is a few years old, despite being top of the line when I got it. I want to make sure that my computer will be able to handle this and I won't need to spend another few hundred dollars on upgrading it.

[Nick3DvB]

Good call splitting the thread, hope no one minds if I change the subject...

JohnCarmack: I've seen you mention in several videos that you haven't gotten translation tracking to work properly with the unit. One thing I wanted to try with it was to use a Playstation Move or similar device to optically track the 3d location of the unit and try to use that in game. Have you already tried that and found out that it doesn't work for some reason?

@JohnCarmack - It sounds like you have made significant progress in this area, but it leaves me wondering, from your experience, in what ways is motion tracking currently lacking? It sounds like front-to-back, side-to-side translation does not currently exist. How much of a detriment is this to the experience? What sort of movement tracking do you believe is important for the immersion factor?

I’m really glad you guys raised this, John has touched on it several times in interviews and I think that being that able to demonstrate parallax simulation effects would give a massive boost to the whole project; in fact it could be your "killer-app". I don’t underestimate the importance of the FOV improvements, that’s a massive achievement in itself, but combine that with the potential of the tracking implementation and I’m really starting to get excited, so forgive me if I go on a bit. Firstly I have to admit I’m a complete HMD noob, I tried one in a Uni lab about 15 years ago but the “floating TV” effect and tiny FOV meant I never really caught the bug. I’ve played around with some TrackIR type kit, but like many I was happy with my projector & shutter specs, and have been patiently waiting for those “holo-deck contact lenses” to arrive ever since…

Whilst the current gen console’s refresh cycle may arguably have robbed us of years of graphics innovation, (those expecting another UE3 / IDTech4 quantum-leap may be disappointed), they have gifted use one thing- mass market adoption of tracking sensors, and that could be SO much more important in the long run. Many have said that we are nearing a tipping-point, the convergence of technologies that will deliver a real game-changer, but we’re not there yet, something is still missing, it reminds me of that quote from the matrix:

You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind…

There IS something fundamentally wrong with “3D”, everyone here knows it but many of the wider public still don’t understand why. Move laterally whilst viewing a stereoscopic image, something very strange happens, your brain is not getting any of the extra information it expects, from “behind objects”, it tries to compensate, it fails, and the illusion is broken instantly. I think people coming to HMDs for the first time really need to understand that head-tracking is NOT just another control system; the feedback it provides for optical effects, like parallax simulation, are a fundamental part of emersion in the 3D space. But they’ll have to see it to believe it.

I’m sure many of you played with Jonny Lee’s Wiimote VR demo a few years back, I have to admit I spent many hours pacing around in front of my projector screen wearing two old TV remotes taped to a baseball cap! I never quite got it working properly with stereoscopic 3D, I played with TriDef but the geometry was always off somehow? When the Kinect arrived there was a stream of similar projects, but still no sign of the killer-app we were hoping for. Autostereoscopic / holographic displays, and plenoptic / light-field imaging systems are all going to feed development in this area, sadly they are still a long way off, but surely WE can do something with this now! There’s no doubt retro-hacking parallax simulation it into current games is an immense challenge, if John is struggling with it, what hope us mortals? But if we could get a few basic demos together at launch to showcase these parallax effects it could have a huge impact on public awareness, when people actually see it working it will blow there mind...

You can probably tell that I’m way out of my depth here, so my terminology is probably all wrong, but if we can demo the strafe “peek around” type effects (dynamic occlusion?) or maybe just something done with lighting of static objects, have reflections distort dynamically or specula highlights move along edge surfaces realistically as the viewer moves their head position (whilst standing still, not just as their body moves through the 3D scene). I hope I’m making sense, hopefully those with a better grasp of basic physics and more knowledge of rendering process can articulate this better. I’m sure most of you have seen all this before but for the uninitiated here are some great videos of parallax simulation in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BduSDvUU6MY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SDGG9HhbgQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dnMsmajogA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tuizfOcdLQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... a5NQK563OI

Also, some basic DOF simulation in Quake III and other really cool stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdW1v9TPNYw
http://www.3dfocus.co.uk/glasses-free-3 ... 3d-tv/8626
http://www.3dfocus.co.uk/3d-news-2/3d-t ... ature/6695

[/END RANT]

You guys keep up the good work, I'll keep spreading the word!




PS - On a separate subject, how does the current system cope with SBS video?

Maybe we can use a post-processing shader for MPC to reverse the distortions etc?

[brantlew]

@Nick3DvB: The technologies for tracking accurate head translation are more problematic than the ones for orientation. Gyroscopic orientation sensors operate within a local reference frame which makes them more generalized for a wide array of applications and immune to scaling problems. They are a near perfect solution for orientation tracking.

Local inertial sensors on the other hand have enormous error ranges when used to estimate translations - on the order of meters per second error!!! So to track translation you have to use an external reference. The Hydra uses magnetic fields and does a pretty good job, but most systems are based on optical technology - thus the Johnny Lee tracker, TrackIR, etc.. You can get really great results with these systems but they suffer from scaling problems - the sensor and reference points have to be within range, and in the case of optical there is a problem of occlusion. Not that these problems can't be solved, but it requires more complex setup and calibration (multiple cameras, light sources, etc) than the simple gyroscope used for orientation. So you don't see setups that include head translation as often because they don't fit in a neat little package, instead requiring a whole specially designed and calibrated play area.

[MSat]

I think a combination of the various tracking methodologies could be used to provide both quick response times and dynamic calibrations. We know that imaging systems like those used in the kinect or even PS Move are not really the quickest systems - if not for the scan rate of the imaging devices, than the computational power they require, but they do offer quite a bit of flexibility. On the other hand, the imaging devices such as those found in the wii controller, or even optical mice provide the exact opposite. Combined, they could potentially provide a responsive and efficient positioning system without requiring an overly complex gaming space setup and calibration. Sure, it's not as simple as strapping a couple gyro/G sensors to your head, but a well developed system wouldn't require a professional to come to your house to install.

[Chriky]

I'm currently trying to make a headtracking system that uses the PS3Eye. I think it's a good piece of hardware to use because you can buy them for £11 delivered from eBay; much cheaper than most other pieces of kit. They can output 320x240 at 187FPS using the free driver from Code Laboratories, it supports up to 2 cameras (there's a paid version that supports more).

320x240 seems like a small resolution but bear in mind the Wiimote camera only has an actual resolution of 128x96, but by averaging several pixels' intensities it gets an effective resolution of 1024x768.

Anyway my basic idea is to put a camera on the head, looking up at the ceiling which will have a sort of poster with a known set of coloured dots on it. You can use the 2D position of the dots on the screen, and their known position in 3D space to work out the position and orientation of the camera (this is called the PnP problem, its not hard and there are loads of very fast (a few microseconds) algos out there to solve it). You only need 4 points to get the position and orientation. The hard and potentially slow bit is identifying the dots in the camera image.

The best thing about this system is that it can scale arbitarily; you can cover a whole ceiling in the dots, combined with some way of getting a global positon (say, QR codes every so often), and then you could walk around freely with a backtop system. What's more, several users could use it simultaneously with no extra work.

----------

http://i.imgur.com/gqU9f.jpg

Still very early stages at the moment, but I've got it working out 4 dots' screen positions. As in, the coloured circles on the screen are drawn using actual (x, y) double coordinates.

[AntonieB]

I don't know the pricing of this sensors:
http://www.lp-research.com/introducing-lptracker/

But it looks like a perfect fit for a HMD.

I read on http://oculusvr.com/?page_id=2 that Palmer is already talking with them so who knows what the future will bring.

[Sadhu]

This new sword fighting game project on kickstarter seems like a perfect fit for vr experience. They will have Razer Hydra support. I guess adding head tracking shouldn't be a big problem.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/260688528/clang

[brantlew]

The head tracking discussion is getting a little off topic so I moved it to another thread

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=15040

[cybereality]

This new sword fighting game project on kickstarter seems like a perfect fit for vr experience. They will have Razer Hydra support. I guess adding head tracking shouldn't be a big problem.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/260688528/clang

Wow! Thanks so much for the link, I backed it. Can't believe this: Neal Stephenson doing a motion-controlled sword-fighting game!?!?!? This really is the second-coming of VR!!!!

[Johnny-Mnemonic]

Oh yeah, this is sweet!

[Nick3DvB]

The head tracking discussion is getting a little off topic so I moved it to another thread

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=15040

Thanks for your input guys, sorry to go off-topic, tracking is obviously a huge area of research in itself, I’m sure many here will be working of there own ingenious solutions, but in a way that is part of the problem! We are inclined to treat it as a completely separate problem and so produce fragmented solutions tailored to our own needs. Something like the LpTracker6D or a simplified optical DOF6 system is certainly something to think about for the Rev.2 kit, but I’m more interested in the limitations of the bundled Hillcrest package that will be supplied for use with Doom 3 BFG (and hopefully Quake4 & Prey at some point!) because this is the sensor most people will be using, and it could define the experience in terms of the wider public.

I’m sure that if John could have implemented perfect parallax simulation he would have done it, but I’m not clear if this is purely a sensor limitation or other modelling issues specific to Doom3? With the exception of Doom 3 most games will be stuck with basic tethered “mouse look” control model, so I think it’s important to have a range of carefully designed tech demos to showcase the other possibilities, to try and de-couple “control” from the "optical effects" produced by subtle head-movement, and to do this using the bundled sensor package if at all possible. Without knowledge of it’s limitations, a couple of possible examples:

- Someone viewing a reflective object from a foot or so away (something like an intricate silver candlestick) would see large changes in the movement of specula highlights over its surface etc, or maybe just mod that excellent RTHDRIBL demo!

- Someone standing on top of a very tall building, a densely packed urban area bellow, small changes in head position (only) are amplified to produce large changes at ground level (in terms of occlusion etc). Maybe something being viewed through a few layers of Half Life 2 style chain-link fencing?

They’re not great so if anyone can think of a better way to demo these types of effects then I be really interested to hear it. If the Hillcrest sensor really isn’t up the job then we should still explore other options, I was hoping the Wiimote cam would do the trick, it seems sensitive enough to small strafing movements in the Jonny Lee demo, and I was intending to use a wii-zapper as a controller with Doom 3 anyway, so having a second one as a camera with a few LEDs / markers would be my preferred option, but the PS3 cam / gun combo looks really interesting to.

Please reply in the split thread on this subject, thanks.

how does the current system cope with SBS video?

On my other question regarding video, personally I have never experienced 3D video on a HMD, the "floating TV" analogy does not apply to the RIFT and this content was obviously not intended to be viewed on such a high FOV HMD, any thoughts on this? Maybe Peter Wimmer could add a dedicated output mode to Stereoscopic Player? Until then, and assuming we can correct the optical distortion with an MPC post-processing shader, or maybe a AVISynth script, and make any other adjustments like aspect-ratio / cropping using the standard media player controls, what other issues might we encounter?

[brantlew]

@Nick3DvB: Beyond the technical aspects of viewing video, I think the Rift would not generally be a good platform for video content. The FOV is just too big - like sitting in the front row at the theater except worse because you can't even move your head to look at other parts of the screen. Video would need to be shot and framed specifically so that all the action was contained within a tiny central part of the screen. Probably some iMax and Omni-Max movies are shot this way and would look great but most content would be overwhelming and incomprehensible.

[Nick3DvB]

That's exactly what I was worried about, but it might be interesting to try and shoot some content specifically designed for the RIFT, to see what works. For regular 3D films I was hoping we could just scale them down into a smaller centralized window to achieve a similar "floating TV" experience to the Sony HMD, I'd like to try it but we would probably want to wait for a much higher resolution panel.

[cadcoke5]

I had always wondered how comfortable it would be looking at a "floating TV" if that TV would move around with any head movement. The Rift could theoretically have the ability to hold the TV stationary if it had head tracking.

Joe Dunfee

[Alkapwn]

Can anyone elaborate a bit more on what else will be needed besides the Kickstarter Rift package?

I really want to get in on this, but also want to make sure that I'm able to run it once I do get it.

Sorry, I'm still a bit new as to how this gear all interfaces together.

Thanks.

[MSat]

@Alkapwn (lol.. I just got your name after typing it)

From my understanding, it depends on the kit you opt for. The top of the line should include everything you need (the HMD, head tracker, and a copy of DooM3: BFG) except for a computer with DVI/HDMI out - not sure if it will support VGA. The other option would be just the HMD, leaving it up to you to get your own head tracker if you want it.

Hopefully the optional head tracker will already include the firmware John Carmack demo'd. Though I imagine it would be as simple as running a program to do it yourself.

[PalmerTech]

Once I get a Kickstarter kit, with headtracker and a copy of Doom 3, is there anything else that I would need computer wise to be able to use this?

If your computer was made in the last few years, you should have no problems. All you need is a DVI or HDMI port on your graphics card and a USB 2.0 input for the tracker.

As for using the Rift for video content... Well, if you scale it down to the right aspect ratio, you lose a ton of resolution. If you crop the video, you end up with a really small camera FOV spread over a huge visual FOV. I would probably avoid it.

[Torchedini]

I had always wondered how comfortable it would be looking at a "floating TV" if that TV would move around with any head movement. The Rift could theoretically have the ability to hold the TV stationary if it had head tracking.

Joe Dunfee

It is quite annoying and you lose focus the instant the movement of your head is too big.
(I have a HMD-t1) It is a great device to hook up to a ps3 and play games in 3d while lying in your bed.
If only the disorientation wasn't a kicker when you stop gaming


Palmertech, Already Ideas what sort of display tech (res and screentype) you want to use in your next version of the rift?
I personally like the 720p oled displays in my sony hmd. They are really gorgeous. Also the quick switching that they are capable of is really great so thats great for gaming. (but 720p is already a bit low for me) Gimme 4k res for each eye or something. And a supercomputer to get it to run all my games with all the effects turned on )

[PalmerTech]

Palmertech, Already Ideas what sort of display tech (res and screentype) you want to use in your next version of the rift?
I personally like the 720p oled displays in my sony hmd. They are really gorgeous. Also the quick switching that they are capable of is really great so thats great for gaming. (but 720p is already a bit low for me) Gimme 4k res for each eye or something. And a supercomputer to get it to run all my games with all the effects turned on )

Looking at 6.1" Toshiba displays, 2560x1600 IPS panels. Would be really great. The HMZ-T1 OLED panels have a fast switching time, but that is marred by the pretty high latency, about 50ms.

[PalmerTech]

Just posted this to this funding discussion thread, head there if you want to give input: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 430#p74430

After reading the feedback here, doing a ton of research on my own, and talking to of the other people helping me with the project, here is what I think I am going to do:

Stage 1: Take a limited number of pre-Kickstarter orders from members on the forum

This will let me bypass the Kickstarter fees on the first couple units, which gives me more money to put towards the project. These orders will be for the HMD only, not any of the accessories (Motion tracker, wireless video link, battery pack, long/thin cables, etc). The reason for this is that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that even if the Kickstarter fails, I know I can deliver at least those HMDs. If the Kickstarter is successful, then all those extra accessories will be available on the Oculus website, probably at a slightly reduced price for all the early-early adopters. These units will have some kind of unique marking laser cut into them to indicate your super-cool status. I will save some of these funds for the main batch, and use some of them to order pre-production parts to make a few prototypes for people who can get the Rift even more attention by integrating it with their projects.

Stage 2: Take the project to Kickstarter

This fulfills Carmack's promise in the interviews that it would go to Kickstarter, and hopefully gets it mass exposure (If not adoption). There will be several different bundles containing the different extras, and a few smaller rewards that are cheap/free to deliver for people who just want to show support for the project. I plan on running it for 60 days, and while I know that is long for a Kickstarter, there is a reason: QuakeCon. It has a lot of attendees who would be interested in the Rift, and most of them are already going to buy Doom 3 BFG! A 60 day project would put the end of the Kickstarter right around QuakeCon, the perfect time for a big push. Yeah, the fees are a bitch, but the advantages are worth the financial hit; A sentiment that anyone else with a significant other understands, eh?

Stage 3: Order all the parts, wait for the truckloads of components to arrive, and then right to work!

If it is only 100 units, then I will be able to do all the work myself. If it gets more attention than expected, I have some friends who would be willing to help; We will order a few pizzas and cases of Mt. Dew, run movies on my projector, and test, assemble, and package all the kits. Testing is going to take the longest, but I do not want to ship out anything with faults. If a panel has even one dead pixel, it will not be going in the kit.

Stage 4: Shipping, support, community building

Pretty self explanatory. I am not going to be giving much in the way of after-sale support, but any problems that are my fault will obviously be taken care of. From there, the community will have a great HMD to use in their projects, and I will hopefully have some new tools and machines that I can use to work on future upgrades or products.

Let me know what you guys think, going to crosspost this to the main Rift thread. If nobody has any really great ideas or changes, pre-Kickstarter orders will start tomorrow and run through Friday.

[BrockSamson]

I'm having some trouble finding the blue prints for the Rift, this might be cause its not out yet but I just have some technical questions about dimensions and power usage etc. Any link, or even just the info that they arn't out to the public yet would be appreciated.

[PalmerTech]

I'm having some trouble finding the blue prints for the Rift, this might be cause its not out yet but I just have some technical questions about dimensions and power usage etc. Any link, or even just the info that they arn't out to the public yet would be appreciated.

It is because they are not finalized, all the plans and such will be available at some point during the Kickstarter project when the design is locked down.

The current prototype is about 7" wide, 5" tall, and 3" deep. The weight, not including cables, is about 0.6lbs. Power consumption is about 600ma at 5v, it has an onboard regulator that can handle up to 12v.

[BrockSamson]

Awesomely quick reply, very excited to begin tinkering, a heart felt thanks for taking care on the lions share of the tech work and making the rift available to us!

[aurelius]

I've been kinda wondering lately. It's very apparent that this initial release of the rift is gonna be aimed more towards the hacker/homebrew community than average consumer or pc users in order to try to get the product into capable hands that have the skills to get the ball rolling. So I'm wondering if there's a danger of the product falling into the hands of a majority crowd that have no experience coding or programing or whatever. you know, someone like me (who is very, very, VERY interested in this doohickey. Yes. My money will most likely be flying your way). Wouldn't something like that slow down the progress of this thing?

Another thing, Since I first heard about the oculus rift 3 days ago, I've been scouring the intertubes for any and all information about it and I could've of sworn I read some mention about a group buy for higher quality displays when they become available. From what I know, palmer and carmack are holding out for those Toshiba displays. If a group buy is indeed what will happen, is that something that will be done through kickstarter? Or would that be independent from it? I honestly don't know why I'm so hung up on the resolution of the thing. I guess since I've never experienced something like this, I just don't really know what to expect and I'm getting cold feet.

Either way, I'm rooting for you palmer/carmack. Definitely throwing my support behind this. I'm sure alot of others feel the same.

P.S. Thanks for keeping the target price at $500. For a broke college student like me, that's a godsend. definitely got to thrown in a little extra to help you afford that pizza.

[WiredEarp]

With the low resolution and high FOV, not to mention requiring warping, I don't think the average person will care for a Rift over a ST1080 or a HMZ. However, that could change once Doom 3 BFG is released since it supports it. However, I suspect the majority of non enthusiasts will look at specs like resolution first, rather than FOV. Good concern however.

[PalmerTech]

I've been kinda wondering lately. It's very apparent that this initial release of the rift is gonna be aimed more towards the hacker/homebrew community than average consumer or pc users in order to try to get the product into capable hands that have the skills to get the ball rolling. So I'm wondering if there's a danger of the product falling into the hands of a majority crowd that have no experience coding or programing or whatever. you know, someone like me (who is very, very, VERY interested in this doohickey. Yes. My money will most likely be flying your way). Wouldn't something like that slow down the progress of this thing?

Another thing, Since I first heard about the oculus rift 3 days ago, I've been scouring the intertubes for any and all information about it and I could've of sworn I read some mention about a group buy for higher quality displays when they become available. From what I know, palmer and carmack are holding out for those Toshiba displays. If a group buy is indeed what will happen, is that something that will be done through kickstarter? Or would that be independent from it? I honestly don't know why I'm so hung up on the resolution of the thing. I guess since I've never experienced something like this, I just don't really know what to expect and I'm getting cold feet.

Either way, I'm rooting for you palmer/carmack. Definitely throwing my support behind this. I'm sure alot of others feel the same.

P.S. Thanks for keeping the target price at $500. For a broke college student like me, that's a godsend. definitely got to thrown in a little extra to help you afford that pizza.

I plan on warning people on the Kickstarter page very clearly, along the lines of "If you just want to play games using a screen on your face, don't buy this! Get an ST1080 or an HMZ-T1, you will be much happier!", if they still decide to go for it, well, they should know what they are getting into. I don't think it will slow down progress as long as I can supply enough units to go around.

A group buy for the Toshiba panels would probably be done independently of Kickstarter, since it would be targeted at people who already own a Rift and want to upgrade (Or who have the resources and skills to laser cut their own parts from the freely available templates). There are only a few of those Toshiba panels in the world at the moment, though, and the very earliest I can imagine seeing them on the market would be Q2/Q3 2013.

Glad you appreciate the price! I am lucky that I don't have to pay salaries, a lease, and all those other expenses that come along with running a "real" company, makes things easier.

[PalmerTech]

A fun note to make:

I have been talking to tons of suppliers for this panel, and it looks like it hit end-of-life status quite some time ago. Not being made anymore, I might have to tap the stocks of multiple suppliers if more than 500 or 600 people sign up.

There is a plenty of stock for the version of the panel that has a touchscreen attached, but that is a problem for an HMD. I have ordered a sample unit to see how hard it is to remove the touch panel, hopefully it is not the kind that attaches using adhesive.

[BillRoeske]

Have you yet hit the backwards situation of the touch-enabled version being cheaper due to surplus stock?

In all seriousness, though, that's a good thing to at least know about before firing up the Kickstarter. You can set limits on supply, if you need to.

[PalmerTech]

Have you yet hit the backwards situation of the touch-enabled version being cheaper due to surplus stock?

In all seriousness, though, that's a good thing to at least know about before firing up the Kickstarter. You can set limits on supply, if you need to.

Yes, I have! It looks like the backlight and touch screen ribbon might be integrated, hopefully that can be fixed.

[davidgutierrezpalma]

Using a touch-screen for a HMD is not a bug, it's a feature: that way you can control the VR environment with your eyelashes...
(just kidding)

[Vaughanabe13]

I'm a lurker that has drifted in and out of these forums for years. After seeing the reports of Carmack doing the demo at E3, I am super pumped about this project and I will be supporting the Kickstarter for sure. Keep up the good work, Palmer!

[BillRoeske]

Are weight and power consumption the primary concerns with the touchscreen displays, or is it similar to an active digitizer screen on an old-school Tablet PC where it also clouds the image?

[PalmerTech]

It is mostly weight, every bit matters on an HMD. I won't know how much it clouds the image until after I get my sample unit, but even good touchscreens have the quality degraded at least a little by the touch layer. Another thing for dust to get into, as well.

[PalmerTech]

Alrighty, here is the link to the pre-Kickstarter page, it should be safe from random people buried here in the thread.

Link: http://oculusvr.com/?page_id=55
Password: MTBS3D

I plan on taking about 20 pre-Kickstarter orders, so don't delay! You must call now!

[Alkapwn]

Alrighty, here is the link to the pre-Kickstarter page, it should be safe from random people buried here in the thread.

Link: http://oculusvr.com/?page_id=55
Password: MTBS3D

I plan on taking about 20 pre-Kickstarter orders, so don't delay! You must call now!

Is Canada ok? I'll be shipping to the States as I live right across Detroit.

[German]

Alrighty, here is the link to the pre-Kickstarter page, it should be safe from random people buried here in the thread.

What's the email we are supposed to specify, it's not listed anywhere.

edit: For clarification, Paypal doesn't let you buy a gift certificate for yourself.

[BillRoeske]

Alrighty, here is the link to the pre-Kickstarter page, it should be safe from random people buried here in the thread.

Congrats on reaching another milestone!

It's taking a lot of will power to not jump on it, but really I want to devote my effort to help make the Kickstarter number go up. Those things carry momentum. I'm subscribed here and to the newsletter, so hopefully I'll be ready to pounce when it goes live and don't miss out on a tracker/Doom bundle.

[PalmerTech]

Is Canada ok? I'll be shipping to the States as I live right across Detroit.

If you are shipping to Detroit, sure. Paypal does not release the funds until the certificate is redeemed, so it is all the same.

What's the email we are supposed to specify, it's not listed anywhere.

If you go to the page, enter the password, and then scroll to the bottom, you will see a button. Clicking it should bring up the right page.

[German]

If you go to the page, enter the password, and then scroll to the bottom, you will see a button. Clicking it should bring up the right page.

It does, but Paypal doesn't allow you to buy gift certificates for yourself(sender email = recipient email). It's not the same thing as "Gift Payment".

[PalmerTech]

Hmm, strange, I thought you could buy gift certificates for yourself.

Does it work if you leave the sender email blank? Alternatively, do you have another email address you could use? I will try to figure this out in the meanwhile.

[rajveer]

Congrats on setting up your first set of payments, must feel good getting this far!

[German]

Does it work if you leave the sender email blank? Alternatively, do you have another email address you could use? I will try to figure this out in the meanwhile.

Nope, it complains that no Recipient was specified(it emails the gift certificate to the person). I have another email but I am nervous that Paypal is going to think something is fishy since it outright prevents me from putting in my own email.

[PalmerTech]

I found some information that says you can deliver to yourself if you choose to print it out to yourself, could you try that?

[German]

I found some information that says you can deliver to yourself if you choose to print it out to yourself, could you try that?

Same issue with printed:

You cannot purchase a Gift Certificate for yourself. Please enter an email address that is not associated with your PayPal account.

I am sure it would work if I put in another email, but another concern is that Paypal will make me open a new account to redeem the gift certificate with the alternate email.

[Alkapwn]

I'm running into the same issue here. Looks like it does require the recipient's email address. I'm assuming the one linked to the Paypal account so it knows which account to transfer the money to.

[PalmerTech]

Got it.

Give me a few minutes, might have to change the directions. Silly me, thinking Paypal would make this easy.

[Krisper]

I would love to get in on the pre-Kickstarter, but I'm in Aus so I'll wait.

It seems stupid that you can't buy a gift certificate for yourself.

[cms]

I took the plunge. I just supplied an alternate email address. Seems to have worked successfully. I got an email of the gift certificate (with redemption code) at the alternate email. I'm a bit giddy. Thank you sooo much for your work PalmerTech!

[PalmerTech]

Okay, I just updated the page. Follow the new directions, that should work fine. Like I said before, I wanted to avoid telling people to send me gift payments if I could, but it looks to be the only option.

I would love to get in on the pre-Kickstarter, but I'm in Aus so I'll wait.

It seems stupid that you can't buy a gift certificate for yourself.

It really is stupid! I can do that anywhere else, why not here?

I took the plunge. I just supplied an alternate email address. Seems to have worked successfully. I got an email of the gift certificate (with redemption code) at the alternate email. I'm a bit giddy. Thank you sooo much for your work PalmerTech!

Great! Thanks for the payment, you should contribute $1 or something to the Kickstarter when it launches so you can comment there.

[cms]

Great! Thanks for the payment, you should contribute $1 or something to the Kickstarter when it launches so you can comment there.

I'll throw a few more than that down.

[German]

It really is stupid! I can do that anywhere else, why not here?

Probably to keep people from adding credit cards they don't own to their account and then giving themselves the money.

Paypal sent. I think we spoke(or someone else told me about it) on IRC quite aways back about the beginnings of this project or a similar one. I am glad to hear it finally coming to fruition and being able to help with the cause.

[Alkapwn]

I took the plunge. I just supplied an alternate email address. Seems to have worked successfully. I got an email of the gift certificate (with redemption code) at the alternate email. I'm a bit giddy. Thank you sooo much for your work PalmerTech!

It says:
Recipients' email addresses must be correct to redeem their gift certificate.

Since my Paypal account will be the one sending the certificate, I'll have to use a different account for receiving it. When redeeming the gift certificate through this alternate email address, will it require me to have a Paypal with this alternate email address?

Edit:
Ok, I'm gonna go ahead with sending it to my alternate email account, and hopefully when I go to redeem it I can use my original Paypal account and the funds don't get stuck in limbo.

[FingerFlinger]

Alright, I'm in too; this is exciting!

[NRainville]

I didn't have any luck with the gift certificate, so I sent it as a gift payment. Let me know if that causes a problem.

[aurelius]

Gah! I really wanna go ahead and put my money down for this, but I only have about half of what I need currently.

Maybe a little off topic: I'm wondering how much of the fisheye view/distortion was able to be corrected through software for doom 3 as carmack stated in his interview with giantbomb.com. was it all but eliminated? Or just reduced to a comfortable extent? Anyone know?

I know Carmack mentioned somewhere that he would be releasing what he can in terms of code to the public. hopefully whatever he did to make the hmd experience with the rift better would be some of that code. I'm curious to see if its possible to reverse engineer what he did on doom 3 and apply it to other games. Maybe use it as a template or something. I'm way green at the whole programing/coding thing, but dam has this thing lit a fire under my ass and got me itching to learn. Guess its time to go out, get some material, and learn exactly what a pixel shader actually is....

[NRainville]

With all the excitement I blew right by the instructions requesting what the intended use is. I am interested in it for simulations, I expect my first project will be to get it working with FSX.

[PalmerTech]

Gah! I really wanna go ahead and put my money down for this, but I only have about half of what I need currently.

Maybe a little off topic: I'm wondering how much of the fisheye view/distortion was able to be corrected through software for doom 3 as carmack stated in his interview with giantbomb.com. was it all but eliminated? Or just reduced to a comfortable extent? Anyone know?

I know Carmack mentioned somewhere that he would be releasing what he can in terms of code to the public. hopefully whatever he did to make the hmd experience with the rift better would be some of that code. I'm curious to see if its possible to reverse engineer what he did on doom 3 and apply it to other games. Maybe use it as a template or something. I'm way green at the whole programing/coding thing, but dam has this thing lit a fire under my ass and got me itching to learn. Guess its time to go out, get some material, and learn exactly what a pixel shader actually is....

The fisheye distortion can be corrected to the extent it is entirely eliminated. In fact, if you make it customizable for each user, you could get results that are perfectly suited for your individual eye spacing and geometry. Chromatic abberation is not corrected in Doom 3 currently, but it is very doable, just a matter of programming effort.

If Carmack does not release the distortion correction implementation (I believe he is, though), then it is definitely something you can apply to other games. Heck, right now, you can go download Nthusim and get it to do the same thing.

With all the excitement I blew right by the instructions requesting what the intended use is. I am interested in it for simulations, I expect my first project will be to get it working with FSX.

No problem, the intended use thing was mostly just for my own curiosity.

[brantlew]

Very confused. I get the "You cannot purchase a Gift Certificate for its funding account. Please enter an email address that is not associated with the funding account." error when supplying palmer's email. I can get it to accept the address if I put my personal email address, but then who is the gift certificate for? How is Palmer getting the money?

[German]

Very confused. I get the "You cannot purchase a Gift Certificate for its funding account. Please enter an email address that is not associated with the funding account." error when supplying palmer's email. I can get it to accept the address if I put my personal email address, but then who is the gift certificate for? How is Palmer getting the money?

PalmerTech didn't remove that "Buy Gift Certificate" link. Don't click that. Just login to Paypal and send it with Send Money, as the instructions on the page states.

[PalmerTech]

Very confused. I get the "You cannot purchase a Gift Certificate for its funding account. Please enter an email address that is not associated with the funding account." error when supplying palmer's email. I can get it to accept the address if I put my personal email address, but then who is the gift certificate for? How is Palmer getting the money?

I made a mistake earlier, and left the button there on accident. Removed it, pretend it was never there and follow the new instructions.


EDIT: Or just get the certificate, that works fine too.

[Guspaz]

What display is used in the Galaxy Note? That's a 5.3-inch 1280x800 AMOLED display. Probably too expensive, even if available.

[PalmerTech]

What display is used in the Galaxy Note? That's a 5.3-inch 1280x800 AMOLED display. Probably too expensive, even if available.

Not only expensive, but not suitable for an HMD. They use a "Pentile" pixel arrangement that shares subpixels, so the screen is actually lower res than they claim. The pitch is really bad, too, so you can clearly see the space between pixels under high magnification.

Aside from that, it has a non-standard interface that would need a fully custom control board. The panel I am using is LVDS, which made finding control boards pretty easy.

[Alkapwn]

I made a mistake earlier, and left the button there on accident. Removed it, pretend it was never there and follow the new instructions.


EDIT: Or just get the certificate, that works fine too.

If I'm concerned the double e-mail address thing of the certificate option will end up being tricky, can I cancel and send money as a gift instead?

I'm just concerned I won't be able to use my real Paypal account with the certificate that was sent to another address. I also don't wanna lose my spot in line, if there is such a thing. So if it's OK I'd like to cancel certificate and go gift instead.

[PalmerTech]

Sure, go right ahead!

[Alkapwn]

Done and done. I will now try and do my best to forget today ever happened. This way the date of arrival should be out of my thoughts and hopefully come to pass sooner than I expect.

Thanks for all the great support with this Palmer! Hopefully you get a good solid front run crew to make things with Kickstarter that much more easy.

A random thought. If you get enough pre-orders to make it worth while, would there be any benefit in completing these early to get some out in the field before the Kickstarter funding finishes? I figure this could help build awareness to a lot of people that this is in fact a very amazing product, that does exist and is fully functional. No protoyping here, just the straight goods. It may also provide some advancements within the dev community to help expand the device's offering to people who may be skeptical that it is a viable device for more than just Doom 3. That and I really can't wait to try this thing >.<

[aurelius]

A random thought. If you get enough pre-orders to make it worth while, would there be any benefit in completing these early to get some out in the field before the Kickstarter funding finishes? I figure this could help build awareness to a lot of people that this is in fact a very amazing product, that does exist and is fully functional. No protoyping here, just the straight goods. It may also provide some advancements within the dev community to help expand the device's offering to people who may be skeptical that it is a viable device for more than just Doom 3. That and I really can't wait to try this thing >.<

Yea actually, I think that can really help fuel the kickstarter to be alot more successful. If the product can reach the hands of people who can ensure that it'll be compatible with more games and such (especially the really popular games such as skyrim), then alot more people are most likely gonna be on board to help fund this thing. You could do periodic updates through the life of the kickstarter as more and more games reach a respectable compatibility. hell, if it was me, I'd start sending one of those prototypes to respectable websites for demo purposes. If kotaku got there hands on one and demo'd BF3 or skyrim and started started singing it praises, it probably wouldn't become a question of whether or not this thing is gonna get funded but by how much. exposure seems to be the name of the game with kickstarter.

but at that point, i don't think you're still catering to the homebrew crowd anymore. Which is what you're trying to avoid I believe. That'd probably disrupt any bulk buy deals you're doing for the materials also.

I guess the point is.....I'm freaking excited.

[PalmerTech]

I want to get a few out in the field, but not really in an attempt to get normal games working. People might get the wrong idea. Developers know the potential.

Check out this article, pretty great: http://www.pcgamesn.com/article/why-joh ... les-won-e3

[Alkapwn]

I want to get a few out in the field, but not really in an attempt to get normal games working. People might get the wrong idea. Developers know the potential.

Check out this article, pretty great: http://www.pcgamesn.com/article/why-joh ... les-won-e3

The sad part is that I don't think there would be ANY way John Carmack would not mention that you were the one that built AND sent him the HMD. Friggin reporters! Other than that, it's pretty high praise that it was the highlight of his gaming career. That's pretty awesome. Perhaps they have you listed in the full interview tomorrow, and he just wanted to build hype with a trailer article that had Carmack in it instead.

[WiredEarp]

Pre-Kickstarter orders for the Rift here: http://oculusvr.com/?page_id=55

US residents only

[Mel]

Pre-Kickstarter orders for the Rift here: http://oculusvr.com/?page_id=55

US residents only

I think you mentioned in a previous post that a Canadian order was OK as long as an American shipping address was supplied. Is that correct? I'm asking because that's my situation and I already PayPal'ed you money.

[Krisper]

Check out this article, pretty great: http://www.pcgamesn.com/article/why-joh ... les-won-e3

Wow, pity there was no mention of who actually built the rocket powered goggles, but wow, that must make you feel pretty damn good

[hast]

Check out this article, pretty great: http://www.pcgamesn.com/article/why-joh ... les-won-e3

Wow, pity there was no mention of who actually built the rocket powered goggles, but wow, that must make you feel pretty damn good

That was a pretty cool article, nice that it was so enthusiastic about the tech.

Considering how many get things wrong about who actually made it I'm thinking that perhaps it would be a good idea if Palmer made a short PR blurb that you could send to different publications when you want to promote the Kickstarter. And it might be a good idea to add it on the Kickstarter as well. I'm thinking that there might be a bit of a backlask against the Kickstarter project otherwise by people who have only read these misinformed articles if they think the Kickstarter is trying to take credit for Carmack's work.

Edit: I also found a follow up article on the Verge post which had the first demo of the device (AFAIK): http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/6/7 ... hn-carmack. It's about a lot of other things as well, but the HMD is in there.

[fschulze]

Check out this article, pretty great: http://www.pcgamesn.com/article/why-joh ... les-won-e3

Wow, pity there was no mention of who actually built the rocket powered goggles, but wow, that must make you feel pretty damn good

@PalmerTech Just a tiny comment on your comment on that article. I would write something along the lines of "As I'm sure John Carmack mentioned in the interview, the actual build of the Occulus Rift was done by me. It would be great if you could give credit were credit is due." The way you wrote it sounds a bit too much like attention grabbing instead of a correction for someone who doesn't know the facts.

[Mel]

Check out this article, pretty great: http://www.pcgamesn.com/article/why-joh ... les-won-e3

Wow, pity there was no mention of who actually built the rocket powered goggles, but wow, that must make you feel pretty damn good

@PalmerTech Just a tiny comment on your comment on that article. I would write something along the lines of "As I'm sure John Carmack mentioned in the interview, the actual build of the Occulus Rift was done by me. It would be great if you could give credit were credit is due." The way you wrote it sounds a bit too much like attention grabbing instead of a correction for someone who doesn't know the facts.

Curiously, the article is now 404-ing.

[fschulze]

Curiously, the article is now 404-ing.

The url changed slightly: http://www.pcgamesn.com/article/why-joh ... les-won-e3 (why there is no redirect ... who knows)

[AngelJ]

They're crediting Palmer now but they misspelled his last name.

I bet you've been getting that your whole life, Palmer. lol

[MikeFesta]

Just sent my payment!

PayPal limits the message to 300 characters, so I had to edit down my explanation of what I want to do with it.

The first thing that I want to do is create stereoscopic 3D renders to test how immersive the RIFT can be. I made some for the HMZ-T1 and I thought it looked better than I was expecting. I can't wait to see how the expanded field of view will work. I will put together a portfolio of renders and videos so that people can experience content specifically created for this device. Look here: http://www.behance.net/festatech and here: http://www.youtube.com/user/FestaTech3D for examples of my work.

I want to try recording video with my 3D Bloggie and fisheye lenses. I originally bought the Bloggie because I wanted to see the live view through my HMZ-T1, but was very disappointed that you can only play back recorded video over the hdmi connection. If anyone knows a workaround to get live video over hdmi, it would be much appreciated.

As a programmer, I thought it would be cool to write an application that displays one of my 3d backgrounds with a linux terminal in focus in the center of the view. The terminal window would have to be low res (something like 320x200), but that's how monitors were 20 years ago. Hopefully the immersive background would transport you to a nicer place than the office.

[Nick3DvB]

The first thing that I want to do is create stereoscopic 3D renders to test how immersive the RIFT can be... I will put together a portfolio of renders and videos so that people can experience content specifically created for this device.

Now that's what I'm talking about!

Like the vids, what were they rendered in?


Personally I've still got an axe to grind about parallax simulation, we really need to demo that:

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... &start=270

But I'm just a hardware guy so I think my best bet is to try and mod the RTHDRIBL demo:

http://web.archive.org/web/200808312232 ... /rthdribl/

It looks great in 3D and re-mapping it's mouse control inputs to the tracker should be pretty do-able.


I was also thinking about shooting some video through the same lenses, that might just work right?

John made a very interesting post about video here: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=138&t=1504

[brantlew]

Personally I've still got an axe to grind about parallax simulation, we really need to demo that:

Just get TrackIR and your favorite flight sim and you can demo 6DOF. Probably not as responsive as Carmack's demo, but you can get your meaning across.

[Nick3DvB]

I have played with a TrackIR and LockOn / MSFS, the DOF6 works pretty well but it's still not quiet right is it... For example, try and look "around" the joins in the conopy, objects in the sky or on the ground behind these joins are never occluded buy them as your head moves. Maybe I'm just not articulating what I mean by parallax simulation very clearly, that's exactly why I need a demo! I can't achieve this by just mapping controls, I will need to hook into the render engine somehow,

I'm working on it...

[cybereality]

@Nick3DvB: Are you talking about DesktopVR ala Johnny Lee? If so, I'm working on it ( http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... =15#p74020 ).

[Nick3DvB]

Yes! I posted a long incoherent rant about the importance of this "effect" a few pages back.

Basically: pitch, yaw, and roll all work, no problem with that, but "head" movement along the the X Y Z planes does NOT!

There are just no parallax, occlusion or "zoom" effects, this is not accurately modeled by any game engine I know of,

that's why we need to build a demo!


EDIT: Excellent work! Looks like you've got it all under control!

I didn't realize you could achieve this with an intercept driver,

I assumed it would need to be coded into the game engine, shows what I know...

But it begs the question - why the hell hasn't anyone done this before !!!

Keep going!

[cybereality]

Yeah, I usually call this "6DOF headtracking". The first 3DOF are yaw, pitch, and roll. The last 3DOF are translations along the x/y/z axes.

[Nick3DvB]

Yeah, I usually call this "6DOF headtracking". The first 3DOF are yaw, pitch, and roll. The last 3DOF are translations along the x/y/z axes.

Its the combination of the two sets that no one seems to have gotten right yet, great to see you're working on it!

[Alkapwn]

Ok, this appears to be a little bit old but I think we could combine this with the Rift and make something completely magical.

Notably at the 1:50 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWkpdtFZ ... r_embedded

And here comes the kicker. Since this uses cheap webcams and only does face tracking, but does it REALLY well.....


Use the LOW tech, when there's too much hassle with the high tech. Make a print out of a face and attach it to the front of the Rift, a facelift so to speak. The saddest part is that I KNOW this will work and track printed faces properly. Mainly cause it's 1am, I'm still at work printing off faces of my self and tracking them, just as if I was using my real face.

[sambeckett]

Just signed up @ mtbs3d so I could get in on the pre-kickstarter offer.
Sent my money tonight via paypal and can't wait to follow the kickstarter project so I can sign up for the remaining components.

I noticed these wireless headphones being used in a few videos, http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Wireless ... B003VANOFY
Do you recommend these headphones or something else?

Also, my current graphics card http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004MNAFWY
has 4 display-port and 2 DVI outputs, I'm guessing a DVI->HDMI adapter will work fine?

The last pair of HMDs I owned was way back in 1995, Virtual IO's I-Glasses with tracking. Video @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbNUIwi5F6g Heretic @ 7:56 and MechWarrior 2 @ 8:28 in that video.

[Chriky]

@ sambeckett

I seem to remember Palmer saying it coudl use DVI natively.

[rajveer]

Its the combination of the two sets that no one seems to have gotten right yet, great to see you're working on it!

Maybe I'm missing the point, but this is exactly what TrackIR/Freetrack accomplish, orientation around 3 axes and translation in 3 axes.

TrackIR has good responsiveness too, and so does Freetrack with something like the PS3 Camera. The only limitations seem to be the angle you can rotate by/amount you can move before being lost to the camera.

[Nick3DvB]

Just because you are head-tracking, and have your 6 degree of freedom in game, this does NOT automatically mean that you are accurately mapping / modeling the the way a human head actually behaves, it's all in the subtle interactions between the direction the game camera is looking (eyes), the relative position of that camera (where the head is), and the path the camera takes through the 3D space as you move your head. Take a flight sim + TrackIR for example, if the model was truly accurate, when you stood up in the real world, your head would bust through the cock-pit in the game! Obviously you don't always want a 1:1 representation, but it should still be as accurate as possible. This is the "head & kneck" model vs "disembodied eyeball" thing John was talking about, and one of the reasons Doom 3 BFG is so impressive. This stuff is very hardcore (euler angles, arc modeling etc) and well beyond me I'm afraid, but it's more important than ever to get it right when using a HMD.

[rajveer]

If you have 6DOF, you shouldn't have to model the way the human head/neck behaves, as your real head/neck would adjust the view correctly for you. I thought the reason John implemented a head and neck model in Doom is because he hasn't gotten axes transformations working yet with that headtracker, othewise why should he have to model a head and neck model when your real head and neck manipulate the view properly. This is why he only got the up and down motion looking correct (I think), because he simulates the path your head would naturally take looking up and down when the data you get from the tracker is only orientation data, and it's impossible to simulate all the possible ways your head and neck move with just orientation data.

With Freetrack/TrackIR, you can set the offset of the headtracker relative to the the turning point of your head (where the neck meets the head), so when you move your head in real life, it translates correctly in virtual space (if you set it to 1:1). Why isn't this good enough for a demo to show what Johnny Lee was doing (parallax stuff)?

[Nick3DvB]

I was asking about this the other day, I know there are certain limitations to the Doom 3 implementation but I’m not clear if this is purely a sensor limitation or other modelling issues specific to Doom3? I think one aspect to it is the interaction between between the players movement through the game world and the head movement, as you are physical stationary when playing, this is ok for a cock-pit but surely there are modeling implications for FPS etc? All I know is that I have yet to see a truly convincing DOF6 implementation, I'll keep looking, and if I can get a demo working hopefully you'll actually be able to see what I'm on about.

[PalmerTech]

Been awake for a long many hours, just submitted the project on Kickstarter. Hoping they approve it quickly and without problems.|

Gotta sleep now.

[BillRoeske]

Fantastic news, Palmer! Credit card is at the ready.

[Okta]

Congrats Palmer, strike one blow for the good guys

[AntonieB]

Congratz!! hope to see it soon

[nixarn]

Awesome!!! I'll reload the kickstarter page until it's up =)

[Mel]

Been awake for a long many hours, just submitted the project on Kickstarter. Hoping they approve it quickly and without problems.|

Gotta sleep now.

Excellent news, Palmer. Rest well in preparation for the Kickstarter cash deluge.

[andrewe1]

Hi,

Can we get a 1-2 hour headstart here before it goes live?

[Nick3DvB]

Good idea, the non-US guys on here who couldn't get on the pre-order would appreciate that.

[Chriky]

I'm not sure Palmer will get any advanced warning. He has already submitted it to Kickstarter, he's just waiting for them to approve it.

[cybereality]

Awesome news! Hope I get a spot on the Kickstarter and it doesn't fill up too fast (well who am I kidding, this is still pretty niche stuff).

[andrewe1]

I'm not sure Palmer will get any advanced warning. He has already submitted it to Kickstarter, he's just waiting for them to approve it.

Afaik kickstarter does not work like that. They approve it and after that they give you the option to launch it whenever you want so you can time it to your liking. It's not a "submit and just wait for it to show up whenever" kind of thing.

[WiredEarp]

I don't get the whole neck simulation thing.
Surely all that is required is the disembodied head/eyeballs? The neck is simply there to connect to the body model, it shouldn't effect view or anything similar. I dont see why there would be a need to 'simulate the path your head would naturally take', when your head will be doing this ALREADY, since its already attached to a real neck.

[Chriky]

I don't get the whole neck simulation thing.
Surely all that is required is the disembodied head/eyeballs? The neck is simply there to connect to the body model, it shouldn't effect view or anything similar. I dont see why there would be a need to 'simulate the path your head would naturally take', when your head will be doing this ALREADY, since its already attached to a real neck.

Carmack's demo didn't use a 6DOF tracker it was purely orientation. When you move you head around your eyes do actually translate because they are quite far from the centre of rotation (which is somewhere in your neck). What he did was start at a neck position, orientate by the rotation matrix, then move 'up', 'forward' and 'left'/'right' to get eye positions to render from.

[Nick3DvB]

Good point Chriky, one other example just off the top of my head, the "walking effect" that is added in FPS games, the camera frame does not glide forward smoothly, the frame bounces around a bit to try and simulate the unsteady motion of a human skelaton walking, but if the player is stationary there will be a subtle discrepancy introduced there...

[BillRoeske]

I don't get the whole neck simulation thing.
Surely all that is required is the disembodied head/eyeballs? The neck is simply there to connect to the body model, it shouldn't effect view or anything similar. I dont see why there would be a need to 'simulate the path your head would naturally take', when your head will be doing this ALREADY, since its already attached to a real neck.

Think of it this way: the pivot point of your head is rooted at your neck, not your eyeballs. So when you turn your head, your eyes (and thus, your view) aren't just rotating in place. They're moving through space as well.

If you tilt your head downward, your eyes actually move slightly forward and down through space. Likewise, they move backward and up (to a degree) if you tilt your head back. Following the skeleton down, your head is connected to your neck, which is part of your spine, which is connected to your hips, etc. A more exaggerated version of the same principal is that if you duck (without rotating your head), your eyes translate downward while still looking forward, and so your view follows.

Simulating the head/neck arc in software is just a small trick to make the 3DOF tracking feel a little bit better than it actually is.

[rajveer]

Hey Palmer, will the optional Hillcrest tracker be the same one that John was using, with orientation but no translation data? I'm sure you mentioned it before but I can't seem to find where.

[TheRockApe]

Okay, I know a lot has been split into other threads.

Had some ideas for assisting with the cpu to eyeball lag issues.

The 6-9 dof head tracking is a question of engineering. Tech is here, just needs to be implemented.

How about putting a large frame buffer into the lcd driver board. The stock board has a standard frame buffer spec-ed for the lcd. How about making the frame buffer 2x-3x larger than lcd spec.

The head tracking can be fed into the lcd driver/frame buffer and the cpu/graphics engine. Small quick movements use the buffer, and large movements the cpu.

Some movements will not track well with this, so experimentation will be need for what is sent to the buffer.

[WiredEarp]

Thanks BillRoeske for the explanation!
I think i'm missing the frame of reference for this conversation though - I suspect we talking about this for systems that do not implement absolute tracking? I say that because with an absolute tracker, your head is ALREADY doing these movements while wearing the HMD. IE, when you tilt your head down, your eyeballs (covered by the HMD) move forward. Therefore, all you need to do (IMHO) in the VR is to render the head position as given. So, for example, using a magnetic tracker, and just rendering the eye/head position into the world should take care of all this.

However, if we are talking about a system that does not track translation at all, then what you have said makes sense to me, and I guess could add to immersion.

[BillRoeske]

I think i'm missing the frame of reference for this conversation though - I suspect we talking about this for systems that do not implement absolute tracking?

Oh, I was talking specifically about the Hillcrest FSRK-USB-2 that JohnCarmack was using for his experiments and that Palmer is (as far as I know) using for one of the Kickstarter bundles. That's the type John was referring to with your quote about simulating a neck joint.

You are correct that a system that tracks absolute position wouldn't need something like that. Sorry if I missed a turn in the conversation somewhere.

[cybereality]

I'm really glad John added that "neck trick" to the tracking. Its something I never thought of, or even heard about being used. I think it will add the extra element of realism.

[PalmerTech]

Hey Palmer, will the optional Hillcrest tracker be the same one that John was using, with orientation but no translation data? I'm sure you mentioned it before but I can't seem to find where.

Yes, same sensor. I really like the Sixense tracker, but considering how much modding it takes to use as a head tracker currently, it was just not a real option.

[NickK]

Palmer. Your hosting provider appears to have a flaky DNS service. Your website intermittently disappears. I have to use my corporate DNS servers to view oculusvr.com. I am on the west coast and it's kind of surprising.

Secondly, what is the price for the whole kit that includes RIFT + head tracker + Carmack's engine? So far, I've only seen the price of $500 for the stand-alone RIFT.

Third. It's already almost June 15 and there is nothing on Kickstarter. I understand that you are overloaded with work. How much time do you need to get it started without burning yourself out? Are we talking days or weeks?

[WiredEarp]

Oh, I was talking specifically about the Hillcrest FSRK-USB-2 that JohnCarmack was using for his experiments and that Palmer is (as far as I know) using for one of the Kickstarter bundles. That's the type John was referring to with your quote about simulating a neck joint. You are correct that a system that tracks absolute position wouldn't need something like that. Sorry if I missed a turn in the conversation somewhere.

Ah, I thought that it was something like that, I think it was me that missed the turn in the conversation!

Indeed, when using a tracker like that, the neck angle bit would be handy.

@ PalmerTech: Indeed, I know what you mean. I redid my Hydra mod with the separate sensor, using shielded cable this time. It seemed to remove the interference caused by the cable I experienced before. I still notice my tracker 'flickers' at certain angles when using the test app (I notice the full Hydra does the same thing at some angles, not as bad however). I'm currently thinking this may be caused by magnetic interference with the new cable. Specifically, I soldered a thin wire bar across the 3 negative lines and wired to this. I suspect that this may be solid enough to generate interference when you turn the tracker to a certain point. I think the next step would be for me to remove the bar and replace it with 3 very fine wires to see if that helps. However, I am still left with a software problem then, which is that the tracker has a point of origin that isn't in the center of the new 'tracker' piece, so any driver I write to transfer Hydra to TrackIR will have to take this into account. PITA when I just want to use my cheap magnetic tracker with a HMD!

I can't see why Sixaxis just doesn't release a non Razer tracker and SDK, it would make everyones lives much easier.

[PalmerTech]

Palmer. Your hosting provider appears to have a flaky DNS service. Your website intermittently disappears. I have to use my corporate DNS servers to view oculusvr.com. I am on the west coast and it's kind of surprising.

Secondly, what is the price for the whole kit that includes RIFT + head tracker + Carmack's engine? So far, I've only seen the price of $500 for the stand-alone RIFT.

Third. It's already almost June 15 and there is nothing on Kickstarter. I understand that you are overloaded with work. How much time do you need to get it started without burning yourself out? Are we talking days or weeks?

Yes, something is wrong with the site, trying to figure it out.

Price for the whole kit will be $599.

If you check a little earlier in the thread, I posted that I have it submitted to Kickstarter, just waiting for approval. Should be a matter of days, if not hours.

[rajveer]

Yes, same sensor. I really like the Sixense tracker, but considering how much modding it takes to use as a head tracker currently, it was just not a real option.

Understood, any tracker is better than no tracker at all I'm going to play around with combining orientation using the Hillcrest tracker and transformation with Freetrack, see how well that works (I really should look into FreePIE and see if this can be done with that?). I hope John implements a mode without the head-neck model in Doom, for those who have a method of tracking translation too.

[Vaughanabe13]

So are you guys mostly going for the bundle with the tracker, or is anyone buying just the HMD?

[AntonieB]

I think i would go for bundle, but I first want to see the kickstarter info

I'm interested if for example we get the 'special for Carmack' high frequention updated Hillcrest tracker or the normal 60 hz tracker.

Hope the kickstarer is up soon, can't wait

[VRon]

Damn i'm living outside US, so I must wait for kickstarter bundle edition.

[druidsbane]

Definitely going to buy the tracker as well since I don't have one. Hopefully the one with the updated firmware so it has the fastest possible response time. I read earlier that even if we didn't go through kickstarter we can buy these from it if we got in on the pre-kickstarter, I'll be patient and wait till then to buy the tracker

[Torchedini]

Don't know yet,
I'll have a razer Hydra coming in quite soon, I heard some rumors that the Hydra is going or is EOL so they aren't produced anymore.
So I want to have that piece of hardware lying around because its usable with what this kickstarter is doing.

If it is possible then I will try to make it workable with the Rift but I think I'll go for the full package anyway. Nothing is as beautiful as wonderful hardware and I'm building quite the collection.

[LeeN]

I'm very likely to get the tracking bundle.

In my experience trying to do the 'Johnny Lee' thing with TrackIR, TrackClip Pro doesn't work for some reason, VectorClip works but is very noisy. I noticed that as one pixel changed it popped positions. I feel like it needs filtering to be smoother which will add latency. And unfortunately for my stereoscopic DLP HDTV it has 90 ms latency (at least that is what guitar hero / rock band are telling me). I also tried Kinect which was even worse. A custom optical head tracking solution I think in the end will be better.

The problem with Razor Hydra is that it's sensitive to metal amd other magnetic fields, which I can only imagine that the LCD and electronics of the HMD are outputting fields, which is probably one of the reasons for distortion. I used to use the Polhemus Hand Scanner like 8 years ago and that had the exact same problem, you had the best results away from metal.

[Alkapwn]

I posted this a few pages ago, but has anyone thought of using faceAPI for head tracking? it's incredibly fast and responsive. Here's an example of it being used in Counter Strike's Source engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWkpdtFZ ... r_embedded

[Nick3DvB]

It's certainly worth considering, not sure about "incredibly fast" though, you need a very good webcam for it to work well (60Hz, high resolution), I ended up using an old Hi8 camcorder connected to a capture card instead!

[BillRoeske]

I posted this a few pages ago, but has anyone thought of using faceAPI for head tracking? it's incredibly fast and responsive. Here's an example of it being used in Counter Strike's Source engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWkpdtFZ ... r_embedded

I tried that Source mod last night, based on your post. It's actually quite cool (I love the leaning command and would actually use it in games), but it's also rather fragile. It was always very quick to reestablish my face, but it lost it more times than I'd like.

Using it for head tracking is a clever idea, but has a fundamental problem: it requires you to be generally facing the camera. Unless you set up an array of cameras that are spatially and temporally calibrated, you'll be stuck not able to turn very far. That's on top of the rather high latency in generic Windows video drivers. Microsoft is trying to do something about that in Windows 8, but their stated goal is for good Skype performance (which they define as ~100ms).

It's certainly worth considering, not sure about "incredibly fast" though, you need a very good webcam for it to work well (60Hz, high resolution) [...]

Don't forget that you can still have high latency while having a high capture rate. You can capture at 120fps, but it might take 200ms from initiating capture for those frames to start showing up.

[cms]

I've played around with a number of different options for tracking motion, and I thought I'd quickly share some of my musings.

My intent is to set up a vr system where:

* you can rotate freely with yaw (you dont have to always be facing a camera or something)

* (relative to a fixed point) acquire body position/offset in 3d

* accurately track relative hand movements (rotation and 3d position)

* accurately track head rotation

I've succeeded with most of this now. Though I haven't put it all together, and I am not yet satisfied with the latency.

The Kinect is nice in that it gives you fairly accurate skeletal pose information across the body (and the libraries make it really easy too). But, it does not do this fast. Of course fast is relative, but with the intent of getting things down to around 20ms or less, the Kinect is nowhere near practical/helpful.

I have used a high speed camera (PS3 eye) and custom OpenCV stuff. I've played with tracking fiducials. I toyed with wiimotes (and with the motion plus) and playstation move controllers. The software to get the moves talking and calibrated was a pain to get going, and unfortunately in its current state adds a bunch of latency. I'm convinced that ultimately you want an AHRS (with 9dom - 3 axis accelerometer, 3 axis gyro, 3 axis magnetometer). There is some work going on to directly reprogram the moves. I imagine that the moves might provide the cheapest avenue for others to explore AHRS.

I worry that overall, bluetooth might end up costing too much in latency.

I think, without necessitating a fixed camera or magnetic tracking, you would probably be able to integrate from a set of AHRSs to find displacement and trigger for things like jumping and crouching without losing much.

---

Using a bunch of ps moves, I set up a fun system. I made a number of straps that would hold a move each. The moves were calibrated. I'd strap one to my forearm, one to my upper arm, one to my chest, and one to my head (next to an hmd). I also held a ps navigation controller.

I did some further "baselining" in code. The user would go into a few different poses and I would calibrate. I constructed a skeleton, very similar to how I imagine Carmack is. It took into consideration the offset of the position of the strap/device from the actual point of rotation. Because I had the "body" sensor I could get an accurate 3d position of the head, upper arm, lower arm, and hand relative to the body basis through the composition of the rotations.

I downloaded the source sdk and started tweaking half life. I didn't get too far with it overall, but I did incorporate the pose tracking for the body and head. At some point, I'd like to return and incorporate the arm/hand tracking to be able to aim and shoot realistically.

It was really fun and immersive to put on an hmd, view things in 3d (thanks to tridef), walk around in game moving my head and body convincingly. I even would physically lay on my side and look up under things. For example, at the beginning of HL2 you arrive on a train. One of the first things I did was lean my body outside of the train door and move my head around. I also went on my side and looked up under the seats of the train. I got out of the train and looked up under the steps getting off the train. I'm sure I looked really stupid in meatspace, but it was awesome.

(I showed it to a few others, and they quickly pointed out problems with it. Why were the bullets shooting out from my face? Why could you lean through walls?)

---

How to make it better:

I don't think I'm doing the calibration quite right or something as I end up with a bit of drift.

I think if I added a fast camera mounted above the user looking directly down, and had some ir leds on top of the head, I could have a satisfying, cheap, convincing, and fast 3d position/offset. This would still allow me to rotate about freely in the ways that I care about. I could use this to get an absolute positioning of the head and use that as the reference basis instead of the body. This is likely best because the head tracking is most important and noticeable. Going the other way led to jittery head movement. This would also let me handle jumping and crouching convincingly.

Instead of each ps move sending out their signals via bluetooth, getting them in software, and processing the rotation calcs, I should reprogram them to do the calculations onboard and only output the final rotation quaternion, wire them together and probably just send the full output through usb.

---

I'm really excited about getting ahold of the rift and putting this all together!

[MikeFesta]

Like the vids, what were they rendered in?

The videos were rendered in blender (http://www.blender.org), a great open source 3D program. I just used the stock blender render engine, but it has the ability to use other rendering engines.

[sambeckett]

Can you let us know how many pre-kickstarter pledges you have received? And maybe release a username list?
Also I was expecting your kickstarter project to start on the 14th, as it is now the 15th when is the new expected start date!
Let me know if I can do anything to help.

[Vaughanabe13]

Can you let us know how many pre-kickstarter pledges you have received? And maybe release a username list?
Also I was expecting your kickstarter project to start on the 14th, as it is now the 15th when is the new expected start date!
Let me know if I can do anything to help.

Read the last few pages of the thread.

[brantlew]

@cms: That sounds like a very cool project. Congrats on getting it past just the initial movement tests and actually customizing to a game environment. There is a thread dedicated to just this sort of thing here.

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=15040

You should post some videos of the system in action.

[PalmerTech]

Can you let us know how many pre-kickstarter pledges you have received? And maybe release a username list?
Also I was expecting your kickstarter project to start on the 14th, as it is now the 15th when is the new expected start date!
Let me know if I can do anything to help.

I have received exactly 22 orders, I am going to leave it open till the Kickstarter launches. If you read up in the thread, I mention a few times that I am just waiting for Kickstarter to approve it now. If they do not do so by the end of the day, it will probably not be till after the weekend.

Most of the people on the list have already posted in this thread, I don't want to release the names of the others without their permission.

Hurry up, Kickstarter!

[Nick3DvB]

I don't want to jinx you Palmer but I have a gut feeling that the kickstarter is going to fund very quickly. It would be good if you could keep a dozen or so unit in reserve for forum members who don't realise this, couldn't get on the pre order, picked the wrong week to go on holiday, or maybe don't have the funds availiable straight away. Just a thought...

[andrewe1]

I don't want to jinx you Palmer but I have a gut feeling that the kickstarter is going to fund very quickly. It would be good if you could keep a dozen or so unit in reserve for forum members who don't realise this, couldn't get on the pre order, picked the wrong week to go on holiday, or maybe don't have the funds availiable straight away. Just a thought...

No doubt, especially if he mentions Carmack and Doom 3 backing the project. That's gonna drive sales through the roof.

[3dvison]

This is sorta on topic. Its about buying a RIFT.
Has anyone ever opened up a new paypal account using only one of those Green Dot MoneyPak cards you can get at wal-mart ?
Looking at the PayPal site, I am pretty sure you can, just wondering if anyone here has done it and if it went smoothly for you ?

[PatrickReddeck]

....I have received exactly 22 orders, I am going to leave it open till the Kickstarter launches...

If you can email me before you go live with KS I would appreciate that. I didn't buy into the pre-sale because it wouldn't allow me to start developing sooner, and I haven't heard-back from Hillcrest Labs as to if/when the "Carmack firmware" will be available to the public. In a community in the hundreds of devices any fragmentation between developers would be a hindrance.

[cybereality]

I'm waiting for the Kickstarter to go live, this is going to be great.

[bmwesting]

I'm really looking forward to the Rift kit.

I run a visualization laboratory at the University of Texas at Austin, and will be using the Oculus Rift to experiment in a next generation immersive environment for clinical radiology. Also Doom 3!

Looking forward to working with the device and developing software/tools for immersive visualization.

Brandt Westing

[brantlew]

@bmwesting: Can't help it. GO HORNS!

Seriously though...we've got a lot in common. I'm UT alumni, work in radiological image processing, and VR on the side. Looking forward to my Rift as well. We should grab a beer sometime

Edit: Oh, I just noticed we practically have the same name. I think you're my evil twin.

[NickK]

....I have received exactly 22 orders, I am going to leave it open till the Kickstarter launches...

If you can email me before you go live with KS I would appreciate that. I didn't buy into the pre-sale because it wouldn't allow me to start developing sooner, and I haven't heard-back from Hillcrest Labs as to if/when the "Carmack firmware" will be available to the public. In a community in the hundreds of devices any fragmentation between developers would be a hindrance.

Isn't it considered personal data? Palmer can of course do whatever he wants to do but IMHO it would be a rather questionable move if he shares it.

If you are concerned about fragmentation among developers, what prevents you from posting your suggestions/proposals in the public forum? He's already told you that most of those folks read this thread.

[Ameria]

If you can email me before you go live with KS I would appreciate that. I didn't buy into the pre-sale because it wouldn't allow me to start developing sooner, and I haven't heard-back from Hillcrest Labs as to if/when the "Carmack firmware" will be available to the public. In a community in the hundreds of devices any fragmentation between developers would be a hindrance.

Isn't it considered personal data? Palmer can of course do whatever he wants to do but IMHO it would be a rather questionable move if he shares it.

If you are concerned about fragmentation among developers, what prevents you from posting your suggestions/proposals in the public forum? He's already told you that most of those folks read this thread.

Maybe I'm misreading something, but I don't think PatrickReddeck was looking for any personal data - I read that as his asking Palmer for an email heads-up when the Kickstarter goes live (to avoid missing out on it), followed by an observation that if the optimised firmware isn't publically available, that could lead to fragmentation between those who have it and those who don't...

[NickK]

Maybe I'm misreading something, but I don't think PatrickReddeck was looking for any personal data - I read that as his asking Palmer for an email heads-up when the Kickstarter goes live (to avoid missing out on it), followed by an observation that if the optimised firmware isn't publically available, that could lead to fragmentation between those who have it and those who don't...

I apologize if I misunderstood him. His previous message asked for a list of orders (people who had already sent their money). I'm not sure that list should go public. Or maybe I'm just too paranoid about privacy? It's possible too.

[cybereality]

That list should certainly not be public. Especially since we've already had issues with a retailer (who will remain nameless) trying to sabotage this project.

[PatrickReddeck]

Ameria, you are correct in my intentions. Thank you for stating so.


NickK, again you are wrong.

Please fact check before you make statements of fact. User sambeckett requested pre-sale customer list not I, and that post is on page 27 of this thread a mere 11 post before your own.

Can you let us know how many pre-kickstarter pledges you have received? And maybe release a username list?
Also I was expecting your kickstarter project to start on the 14th, as it is now the 15th when is the new expected start date!
Let me know if I can do anything to help.

cybereality I believe I know of whom you type. Their website is something of an amateur 1995 geocities monstrosity and their VR tech looks about as old.

[NickK]

Ameria, you are correct in my intentions. Thank you for stating so.


NickK, again you are wrong.

Please fact check before you make statements of fact. User sambeckett requested pre-sale customer list not I, and that post is on page 27 of this thread a mere 11 post before your own.

Yes, indeed, it was a different user. I should have responded to sambeckett instead of you. I am sorry about the confusion.

[Emerson]

I'm curious--does anyone has solid data on the optics distortion on the Rift yet?
I'm working on a DirectX proxy dll that ought to be able to do the optics correction, but I need to jury-rig some sort of test mapping until I can get a real device.

[Mel]

I just got off the phone with a representative from PayPal. She called me to ask me about a $500 payment I made to PalmerTech last week and wanted to know what the skinny was with it. She warned me that because the payment was marked as a 'gift', they could not guarantee the 'purchase' should it turn out to be a scam. She said she spoke with Palmer and that the project sounded exciting, but wanted to know when/if I could expect delivery of the goods. I didn't have an answer to that question, but given that Palmer said the Kickstarter would run for 2 months, I took a guess and said 3 months.

Her concern over the matter made me start wondering about it myself.

So Palmer: Are you and John Carmack running a scam here?

[Alkapwn]

I'm curious--does anyone has solid data on the optics distortion on the Rift yet?
I'm working on a DirectX proxy dll that ought to be able to do the optics correction, but I need to jury-rig some sort of test mapping until I can get a real device.

My best guess would be John Carmack, as I believe he's the one that figured out the distortion to be able to output the inverse of that directly from the game. My assumption is that he'll probably release that info as he wants the developers to have all the tools needed to push this thing to the next level.

Sidenote: I saw your Mirror's edge thing and OMFG!! how the hell did I not think of that as the first game to try the Rift out on, especially given how much I love that game. And the fact that you can remove all hints is like a dream come true for me in a video game. Too many video games these days baby us. Can't wait to get my Rift and try Mirror's edge on it once you finalize your code for it.

I'm assuming all of you pro developers are working on your versions of how to make this work best with each game and engine and whatnot. What about maybe even on the Rift site or something, if you make like a developers code base section. Then everyone can work on figuring stuff out together which might make the process easier. Something like a list of games that have been configured for use with the Rift. And then which code you need for each game, until we get a multi-game pack or something. And for SURE there should be a donate section where you could donate to the developers responsible for making each "Rift Certified Title". I'm sure nobody here would hesitate to chip in some coin for all the hard work you guys are all doing.

[andrewe1]

So Palmer: Are you and John Carmack running a scam here?

I really hope that is sarcasm. You seriously think someone like Carmack would help run a scam like this? Do you even know who John Carmack is? It's people like you that make these sorts of projects problematic. It's a hobby project, you shouldn't even expect it in 3 months, delays always happen.



Palmer needs trust and patience, something you can't seem to have. So I suggest you kindly ask for a refund and just wait for the kickstarter or till there's a more established distribution channel.

[cybereality]

This is exactly why I was pushing for using Kickstarter (in the other thread) rather than going through PayPal. They will minimize customer service headaches.

[Mel]

So Palmer: Are you and John Carmack running a scam here?

I really hope that is sarcasm. You seriously think someone like Carmack would help run a scam like this? It's people like you that make these sorts of projects problematic. It's a hobby project, you shouldn't even expect it in 3 months, delays always happen.

Palmer needs trust and patience, something you can't seem to have. So I suggest you kindly ask for a refund and just wait for the kickstarter or till there's a more established distribution channel.

Let me just say how ridiculous it is of you to question whether or not it was sarcasm, then to outright accuse me of awfulness with an "It's people like you..." diatribe. Of course it was sarcasm. Do you honestly believe that I think multi-trillionaire John Carmack would run an online scam? Really?

I was more posting it to see if anyone else received the PayPal phone call. I shall now revert back to lurker mode.

[andrewe1]

So Palmer: Are you and John Carmack running a scam here?

I really hope that is sarcasm. You seriously think someone like Carmack would help run a scam like this? It's people like you that make these sorts of projects problematic. It's a hobby project, you shouldn't even expect it in 3 months, delays always happen.

Palmer needs trust and patience, something you can't seem to have. So I suggest you kindly ask for a refund and just wait for the kickstarter or till there's a more established distribution channel.

Let me just say how ridiculous it is of you to question whether or not it was sarcasm, then to outright accuse me of awfulness with an "It's people like you..." diatribe. Of course it was sarcasm. Do you honestly believe that I think multi-trillionaire John Carmack would run an online scam? Really?

I was more posting it to see if anyone else received the PayPal phone call. I shall now revert back to lurker mode.

I'm sorry, but I didn't catch it since I know paypal usually does things like this. I thought of you doubting it because I followed very closely the openpandora project which started somewhat like this. A mini computer built by hobbyists and everything went wrong, from paypal freezing their funds to people getting impatient and thinking it was a scam and demanding their money back, ultimately harming them even more.

I apologize, but next time, try to make it a little more obvious.

[WiredEarp]

Haha.

'Be careful Mel. You're treading on our dreams'

Equilibrium is a movie that really needs much more recognition.

[benz145]

Haha.

'Be careful Mel. You're treading on our dreams'

Equilibrium is a movie that really needs much more recognition.

Second this!

(just lurking to find the latest on the Rift)

[PalmerTech]

I followed very closely the openpandora project which started somewhat like this. A mini computer built by hobbyists and everything went wrong, from paypal freezing their funds to people getting impatient and thinking it was a scam and demanding their money back, ultimately harming them even more.

Hey, me too! I was lucky, I managed to get an early unit by accepting one that had a malfunctioning analog stick. Was just a cold joint, easily fixed. Thank goodness I did that, because even today, several years later, there are still first-batch pre-orders that have not been fulfilled.

Some news!

Good news, bad news, and good news:

Good news: I got a call from Paypal as well, they were very friendly, I explained what was going on, said that the buyers knew it was a product that is not already in existence. I have to re-verify my ID, bank account info, address, and all that to prove my account has not been hijacked, and then it should all be good. I know Paypal will sometimes screw people over pretty badly, but I am hoping that my 7 year old business account with nearly $100,000 in total transactions will get halfway decent treatment.

Bad news: The Kickstarter is approved, but I am going to have to delay it for two weeks.

Good news: That is not actually bad news at all. A lot has changed in the past week, and while I cannot go into details just yet, I can promise that nobody here would possibly be upset with it. Some really big names in the game industry are getting involved with this, not only the initial kit, but future development as well. Thanks to those names, the Kickstarter can be 30 days instead of 60, meaning that the Kickstarter will end and start shipping units even earlier than before! More info as soon as I can give it.

Thanks for holding on with me!

[Samiad]

Exciting stuff!

[andrewe1]

Dammit! I wanted to just pledge on kickstarter and then completely forget about it till it shows up in my front door.

Oh well, If you say the industry is getting more interest, then it's a win win for everyone.

I hope one of the other big names is someone that starts with G and ends with abe Newell

[Alkapwn]

Great to hear Palmer! That's so friggin awesome that all your hard work is getting crazy noticed now!! Between you rockin a super solid HMD kit, and the crazy awesome programmers here on this forum we should have multiple game support in NO time!

Again, we should think about some sort of code base where we can donate to all the people making all our favorite games compatible with the Rift!

We wait with bated breath to hear the good news!

[nixarn]

Awesome! Super excited about new news what ever it is =) hype++

[Chriky]

Some really big names in the game industry are getting involved with this, not only the initial kit, but future development as well.

Alright seeing as we've been delayed let the pointless, baseless rumours start now! I'm calling it - Valve.

But seriously, congratulations Palmer there's nothing better than a honest geek with a lifelong passion finally getting that big break

[AntonieB]

Congratz Palmer

I just hope the 'hacker / DIY perspective' won't get lost with all kind of 'commercial / big party' interesests.

Don't take me wrong I am still very excited about this project and can't wait for more information / the kickstarter to commence so we can get this thing going

Keep up the good work!

[Krisper]

This is sounding better all the time, does this mean we get an even better kit? I know, no details yet, just very excited about this. Two weeks is going to feel like forever.

[Mark2036]

Some really big names in the game industry are getting involved with this, not only the initial kit, but future development as well.

Alright seeing as we've been delayed let the pointless, baseless rumours start now! I'm calling it - Valve.

But seriously, congratulations Palmer there's nothing better than a honest geek with a lifelong passion finally getting that big break

Damn I hope it is Valve... If they end up developing Portal 3 with time travel game play AND VR support and I may just have a nerdgasm.....

Also, next gen sony and microsoft is coming very soon.... lets hope the buzz created by the Rift leads to console based VR support too

[Vaughanabe13]

Wouldn't it be great if the new announcement is an upgrade to 1080p displays? LOL I can dream.

[ido]

Palmer! Great to see this coming along!

I am still very much into the VR hobby and would love to help out any way possible. Very interested in trying out this design.

Good luck to you.

Edit: Wowzers, just finished catching up with this thread... I am glad I decided to check up on this when I did. Kickstarter only a couple weeks away? Very nice. I sent you a PM Palmer.

[Nick3DvB]

Thanks for the update Palmer, sounds really exciting.

No probs on the delay, good things come to those who wait...

PS - found a little bit on the FOV2GO and RIFT here:

http://www.3dfocus.co.uk/3d-news-2/the- ... ality/8736

[LeeN]

Bad news: The Kickstarter is approved, but I am going to have to delay it for two weeks

Is that 2 weeks from the original date or 2 weeks from today?
What is your preference Paypal or Kickstarter?

One thing to keep in mind when doing time estimates about Kickstarter is that Amazon will hold the funds for 14 days after the campaign is ended.

[Vaughanabe13]

Thanks for the update Palmer, sounds really exciting.

No probs on the delay, good things come to those who wait...

PS - found a little bit on the FOV2GO and RIFT here:

http://www.3dfocus.co.uk/3d-news-2/the- ... ality/8736

According to that article, "The Kickstarter campaign started on June 14th."

[Nick3DvB]

Yeh, not sure when it was actually written, most of their stuff is syndicated, the guts of it came from here I think:

http://interactive.usc.edu/2012/06/10/p ... -holodeck/

http://www.jamesiliff.com

[BillRoeske]

Some really big names in the game industry are getting involved with this, not only the initial kit, but future development as well.

Slightly disappointed to hear of the momentary delay, but mostly really excited to see the interest and where it could lead!

Aside from the common speculation of Source and Skyrim support, I'd kinda love it if Turn 10 jumped on this. It's a bit of a pipe dream because of the need to certify/license input devices on the XBox, but hey, a guy can dream. I can guarantee that at least three of my friends would jump on the Rift bandwagon with Forza support, though. Then again, two of them probably will anyway if iRacing supports it reasonably well.

Looking forward to seeing the industry cameos in your revised Kickstarter video. If you're happy with the hardware, though, don't let pending deals or whatever delay you too long. Insert picture here of Fry demanding that you take my money.

[brantlew]

ok, I'll throw out my wild speculation (wish) as well. Tridef/nVidia support please.

[PatrickReddeck]

Good news: That is not actually bad news at all. A lot has changed in the past week, and while I cannot go into details just yet, I can promise that nobody here would possibly be upset with it. Some really big names in the game industry are getting involved with this, not only the initial kit, but future development as well. Thanks to those names, the Kickstarter can be 30 days instead of 60, meaning that the Kickstarter will end and start shipping units even earlier than before! More info as soon as I can give it.

Thanks for holding on with me!

Sounds like great news for your business Palmer. I have a couple of questions as they pertain to us hobbyist, particularity those working on something specifically for Rift.

Are you increasing the number of orders you are taking?
What sort of effect will this have on the hobbyist community?

I was under the impression that the early adopters here were developers and not just gamers. Is that correct or is John Carmack one of just a handful developers?

[benz145]

Some really big names in the game industry are getting involved with this, not only the initial kit, but future development as well.

Alright seeing as we've been delayed let the pointless, baseless rumours start now! I'm calling it - Valve.

But seriously, congratulations Palmer there's nothing better than a honest geek with a lifelong passion finally getting that big break

Damn I hope it is Valve... If they end up developing Portal 3 with time travel game play AND VR support and I may just have a nerdgasm.....

Also, next gen sony and microsoft is coming very soon.... lets hope the buzz created by the Rift leads to console based VR support too

I think we're likely way too far toward the next generation of consoles to have them change course to make a console that has considerations specifically for VR. It's possible that some post-launch tweaks will make them compatible, but first we need some solid standards for the type of 3D that will be use, the resolution to be supported, and the framerate expected. Hopefully this project gets attention and the industry will finally solve some of these hurdles.

[German]

I think we're likely way too far toward the next generation of consoles to have them change course to make a console that has considerations specifically for VR. It's possible that some post-launch tweaks will make them compatible, but first we need some solid standards for the type of 3D that will be use, the resolution to be supported, and the framerate expected. Hopefully this project gets attention and the industry will finally solve some of these hurdles.

It's not quite the same thing as Oculus Rift but an article about a recently leaked document from Microsoft showed, among other things, some kind of augmented reality glasses called 'Kinect Glasses' as an accessory to the successor to the 360. The document was from August 2010, so I am sure things have changed since then. Just shows that the big players are thinking about this kind of stuff.

[TheRealistWord]

Woo! Congrats Palmer! Delayed Kickstarter, but in the long run, we'll get our Rifts sooner than planned I'm glad that the word's spreading and interesting is extending far, far outside this forum, so very curious what other names in the industry have taken an interest in this.

I just hope the 'hacker / DIY perspective' won't get lost with all kind of 'commercial / big party' interesests.

That's initially what I feared, but I'm guessing that strong commercial support will give the Rift a chance to get even more exposure and fall in the hands of more than just the hobbyists and devs. Maybe start carving into the casual gamer's market eventually? Seems like VR is one of the next logical steps with consoles, after their hand at tablet and motion accessories and boosting the processors/graphics every gen.

[Krisper]

Thanks for the update Palmer, sounds really exciting.

No probs on the delay, good things come to those who wait...

PS - found a little bit on the FOV2GO and RIFT here:

http://www.3dfocus.co.uk/3d-news-2/the- ... ality/8736

I love this bit
"Carmack has agreed to ship a fresh copy of the new Doom 3: BFG Edition along with every RIFT that Palmer gets fundraising for."

So we all get Doom 3 BFG Edition, whoot!! Or is that just over zealous journalism? Or is Palmer going to limit the number he gets funding for .. Noooo! take my money now.

[mm0zct]

If I remember correctly Carmack mentioned he was (at least considering, if not planning to) buy 100 copies of Doom3 to go with the Rift kickstarter. If there are more than 100 units produced then I don't think we can expect that every unit will come with the game, it will probably be a kickstarter option for those that get in quick.

[cybereality]

This is sounding really promising, and I'll be watching this space closely.

My guess: SEGA wants to get back into the console market and will finally release their ill-fated VR headset from the 1990's.

[DragonM]

Wouldn't it be great if the new announcement is an upgrade to 1080p displays? LOL I can dream.

Sadly, that's unlikely, given his phrasing. If that were the case, he'd have said "big names in the electronics industry."

Unfortunately, it takes a lot more buzz than just MTBS3D to get the attention of Samsung. A successful Kickstarter is a good first step towards gaining that attention, but even that is only a first step on a rather long road. The weight the big names in games can lend to the project are another step (witness the effect of the considerable weight of Mr. Carmack), but it takes a lot of steps before fabs that budget production runs in the millions pay attention to what you're doing.

But while we're dreaming, consider the end of that shining road: the attention of both Samsung and, say, Blizzard. Or Turbine. Blizzard would very much like to regain the 2 million World of Warcraft users they've lost over the past several years. Azeroth in immersive 3D? Or Turbine's Lord of the Rings Online. Middle Earth in immersive 3D? Say what you will about the game itself, LOTRO is already an incredible artistic achievement. Looking at it "from the inside" would be spectacular. Native Rift support from either or both would catapult the Rift from truly-nerdy-omg-you-look-like-such-a-dork-with-those-on to everybody-plays-with-a-Rift-how-can-you-not? overnight.

DM

[WiredEarp]

I'm hoping that the large amount of interest will mean that the economies of scale will tip in our favor, so that perhaps we can get a higher resolution screen .
The really good thing about all of this is it shows there is significant interest in high FOV displays, which is good as most of the established VR companies seem to just not get the importance of high FOV.
Imagine if ST1080 had a 90 degree fov model, they'd sell HEAPS of them.

[LeeN]

Maybe we will see 240 hz and/or OLED option

[nyohan]

hmmm The Pre-Kickstarter page doesn't let you pre-order anymore.

[space123321]

I wanted to pre-order as well however due to the fact that I am not in the US (in Canada) I believe Palmer noted to wait for kickstarter... Palmer - anything that can be done for none US MTBS3D users would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance.

[andrewe1]

I wanted to pre-order as well however due to the fact that I am not in the US (in Canada) I believe Palmer noted to wait for kickstarter... Palmer - anything that can be done for none US MTBS3D users would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance.

Wait for the kickstarter

[Tinus]

I am way too excited for this, can't wait to start hacking.

[MalDuffin]

One of these bad boys will be heading for Ireland as soon as the Kickstarter pops up! I worked with Virtuality headsets at IBM ( when they started manufacturing them many moons ago ), but haven't been aware of any major jumps in technology until I read some of the Carmack articles. His credibility def has swung my support for this.

Hopefully if Murphy tries to get involved and tinker, he'll stay on native soil, mess with mine and will leave the rest of your headsets bug-free

[LeeN]

I didn't know IBM made HMDs, their products are not on this ancient list
http://stereo3d.com/hmd.htm#chart

[MalDuffin]

I didn't know IBM made HMDs, their products are not on this ancient list
http://stereo3d.com/hmd.htm#chart

They manufactured the hardware for Virtuality after their move to use PC hardware - previously Virtuality were using Amiga hardware I think. This was mainly for their arcade machine business ( the few sample projects were arcade games, eg Zone Hunter - at IBM we were tasked with writing a relatively simple program to help test the hardware quickly, where you could navigate a 3D space and touch objects to test both the headset and also the hand controller, both of which were independant of each other ).

[bmwesting]

My guess is that interest in the gaming community means that one or more studios have said that they will help support the device in their game by releasing a version/patch that support the Rift. Either that or they've agreed to subsidize the cost somewhat to encourage development.

Valve might be likely, Gabe seems to be very receptive to fans and their ideas, and they even have Michael Abrash working on wearable computing over there.

Brandt

[brantlew]

How about Bethesda? Close ties to id/Carmack so who knows? Wouldn't it be awesome to get native SkyRim support?

[Nick3DvB]

I just read the official DOOM III BFG release date is October 16th?

Hopefully that won't be a problem for the Kickstarter bundle?

[PalmerTech]

I just read the official DOOM III BFG release date is October 16th?

Hopefully that won't be a problem for the Kickstarter bundle?

The PC work is going to be done before then, luckily.

[brantlew]

Hey Palmer, a few of us have been pursuing software lens distortion correction in another thread. Emerson is making excellent progress, and I am curious as to how close he is getting. When you get a chance could you view this image in the Rift and tell us what it looks like?



http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 913#p74912

[TilliK]

So palmer, If someone that lives in sweden wants to get in on that pre-kickstarter pre ordering, is there anyway of doing that? I can fix an adress for shipping in USA if that helps! I'm really exited about the rift! and looking forward for the coming years of development this will trigger.

[nicolasbol]

Hello,

What is the status of the kickstarter since the June 14th target is gone ?

I am from Toronto and drooling over this device with Doom 3 BFG. Please take my money !!

[QuasiSteve]

What is the status of the kickstarter since the June 14th target is gone ?

From a few pages back:

[...]
Bad news: The Kickstarter is approved, but I am going to have to delay it for two weeks.

Good news: That is not actually bad news at all. A lot has changed in the past week, and while I cannot go into details just yet, I can promise that nobody here would possibly be upset with it. Some really big names in the game industry are getting involved with this, not only the initial kit, but future development as well. Thanks to those names, the Kickstarter can be 30 days instead of 60, meaning that the Kickstarter will end and start shipping units even earlier than before! More info as soon as I can give it.
[...]

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 420#p74809

[NickK]

Wouldn't it be great if the new announcement is an upgrade to 1080p displays? LOL I can dream.

Sadly, that's unlikely, given his phrasing. If that were the case, he'd have said "big names in the electronics industry."

Unfortunately, it takes a lot more buzz than just MTBS3D to get the attention of Samsung...

I am no expert in the area but I don't think it's just buzz. The smartphone market set off an avalanche of small high definition screens and Samsung is now one of few big manufacturers in that space. They've recently shown off flexible OLED screens and a few transparent ones for applications in augmented reality.

Due to volume of supply the cost of such screens have dropped significantly over the last few years. Samsung is surely looking at other markets for LCDs. Combine it with advances in OpenGL since version 3+. And it *finally* becomes the right time for VR hardware + 3D software to reach sufficient technological level at the decent cost to go mainstream.

There is still a lot of work to be done on both hardware and software fronts but it should no longer cost an arm and a leg to construct good VR visors and actually support them in software. I'm actually hoping that Samsung will target the VR market in the next year or two. Should be fun.

In other news, there is already a target date and references to "large quantities": http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Doom-3 ... 16055.html

As reported during E3 2012, id Software Technical Director John Carmack demoed the gadget, a side project he started after completing Rage. The headset is slated to be sold in limited quantities for around $500. However, technical difficulties prevent the headset's resolution from matching current HD graphics, yet movement is reportedly so fluid, it's life-like. Carmack is hoping to have a large number of kits thrown together by the time QuakeCon 2012 launches in August.

[rajveer]

Hmm, could indeed be Valve:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2 ... n-hardware

[EdZ]

Bear in mind that these high-resolution LCD/OLED panels are just bare panels. They're designed to directly interface with the SOC inside a mobile device, and often do so in an entirely proprietary manner. Purchasing one for a HMD is not as simple as buying the panel itself: you wold also need a driver board to take the TMDS signals from DVI/HDMI and turn it into whatever signalling method the panel needs to drive it. For custom panels for cellphones/tablets that do not use FPD-link (and even those that do, no two panel interfaces are completely alike or strictly compatible), this almost certainly means using an FPGA and designing the interface almost from scratch. The cost for putting them into the Rift is not so much the purchase of the panels themselves, but the design and manufacture of the driver boards.

[brantlew]

Good point EdZ

[TheRealistWord]

@rajveer - thanks for posting that interview. It reaffirms my belief that John just, plain and simple, gets it. The next gen of consoles can beef up their processors and GPU's and ram all they like, but it's going to take much more than a graphical overhaul to keep video games fresh, unique, and interesting. Sequels on next gen consoles running in 1080p @ 60 fps with advanced particle effects and real time dynamic lighting (Unreal Engine 4?) will definitely look pretty, but it's essentially the same experience wrapped up in a sparkling, neon bow instead of a single colored, droopy bow. That's why all three big console devs are expanding and trying their hand at motion controls, and now taking a run with incorporating tablets with gaming (Wii U and the Xbox Smart Glass). But even so, I think mainstream HMD's and VR is what the video game industry really needs to take the next big step forward.

So before I stray too far offtopic ... The Oculus Rift seems to be one of the key pieces in doing that.

btw, in the interview, John mentions that Sony's taking an interest in this and a follow up - does he mean Sony's interested specifically in the Oculus Rift (as in, they know about it, they're talking about it, etc.) or is he saying that he doesn't know if Sony knows about the Oculus Rift, but is just interested in 3D HMD gaming in general? Oh, and Valve! So uh... the fabled Half-Life 3 and the Oculus Rift?

[PatrickReddeck]

I've had word from Hillcrest Labs that their 250Hz firmware is indeed custom for John and not something ready to release into the wild. I would caution against buying a tracker and expecting the 250Hz firmware update to be available.

Palmer,

Is John acquiring the tracker with the 250Hz and providing them for Kickstarter? Are you working with them directly, and will the Rift Bundle have the 250Hz update firmware?

[optimus]

Wow, a week of missing posts and it seems so much has happened post E3. Great work to all involved.

I must say, PalmerTech, it's a damn shame these game 'journos' aren't doing their job and actually researching the product. If so they'd very quickly see that it's your baby and they'd give far more credit! At least they're getting the word out. And we still think you're pretty rockin'.

Is there a FAQ yet? Would it be worth while setting up a community wiki in the interim to handle questions? It strikes me as something we could do to help that shouldn't step on any toes + take a way a bit of the administrative effort.

[coresnake]

Waitta go optimus you jinxed it, now NO-ONE is replying

[AntonieB]

Yeah.. it's pretty quiet over here Was hoping some more teasers / information

[petersmc]

Sorry if this info is already on the forum, but what is the agreed "end game" resolution for a high FoV solution like RIFT. In otherwords, assuming the screen resolution is optically warped to match retenal acuity + some eye movement, how dense does the screen need to be such that any pixcelation issues disappear?

[petersmc]

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I wonder what Toshiba are up to. A 6.1 inch display at 2560x1600 that is too big for a phone and too small for a tablet . . . they wont want to have invested in this for nothing. Seems to me to fit pretty well with RIFT - especially if they could to slotted in as an upgrade.

[brantlew]

As EdZ pointed out. Fab'ing the screens is only half the battle. Marrying those screens with the proper hardware and software to drive them from standard digital signals (ie. DVI) instead of custom embedded phone hardware is the other half of the battle. Unfortunately there is no real motivation for the manufacturers to do that.

[losvedir]

Okay, first post after lurking in this thread for the last couple weeks.

I'm extremely excited about the Rift. I'm a software engineer currently doing primarily web development and am getting so reinvigorated into programming just thinking about 3D HMD stuff I can hardly stand it.

What's the best way to get my hands on one of these puppies? I opted out of the Paypal preorder thing because I'm leery of using Paypal, so is it just waiting for Kickstarter at this point? When will we know when it goes live? I have this thread and oculusvr.com permanently open in two tabs and refresh periodically, as well as searching Kickstarter.

Will there be some sort of notification to us eager beavers? I don't want to miss out on the first batch because I didn't see that it was possible to preorder until too late. I'm standing by, credit card in hand, ready once Kickstarter goes live.

[blitter]

I'm subscribed to the topic and check on it daily-- also hoping to get in on the ground floor with Kickstarter as I've got a game engine ready to be adapted to the Rift once I have a unit and/or enough specs to work from.

[nicolasbol]

@losvedir: In the upper left corner you can subscribe to a topic and receive an email notification. There is also a newsletter you can subscribe to on the Occulus Rift blog, you need to enter the password you can find on this forum.

I feel just the way you do but I am sure once it is all figured out there will be a major post here or the newsletter will be notified.

[cybereality]

I believe Palmer said the Kickstarter is already approved, and will go up in a couple of weeks time.

[brantlew]

@losvedir: It seems to have invigorated a lot of people both within the gaming and VR communities as well as people on the fringes and has sparked a lot of software activity on this site directly related to the Rift and to related VR technologies. Check out the rest of the VR DIY forum.

[losvedir]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I am subscribed to this thread now, and I entered my address in the oculusvr.com newsletter thing.

Palmer did say the Kickstarter is approved and it would be two weeks.

I just don't know the best method of keeping my ears out to get notified when he makes it live. Don't want to miss out. I guess I shouldn't worry as it's extremely likely he'll either post here or send out to his email list, but I dunno, I'm just too excited and getting antsy.

@brantlew: You're right. I was linked directly to this thread and have been refreshing just this thread. I'll take a look at what else there is. Good suggestion, thanks.

[hast]

I'm in the same situation of trying to patiently wait for the Kickstarter to start.

Anyways, Palmer said before that it would be about two more weeks, and that he wanted to run it for 30 days. Previously I believe he (or Carmack) has mentioned that the Kickstarter should still be active during QuakeCon (2-5 August). The reason being that they will demo the kit there with Doom 3 BFG so hopefully there should be more people who want to join in on the fun afterwards.

So putting that together it seems reasonable to assume that it should start around 4th of July or perhaps a few days later.

I'm just guessing though, so don't sue me if I'm wrong. But I will at least personally not be wearing out my F5 button until about then. (I'll just rely on my subscription to this thread.)

[DragonM]

I'm subscribed to the topic and check on it daily-- also hoping to get in on the ground floor with Kickstarter as I've got a game engine ready to be adapted to the Rift once I have a unit and/or enough specs to work from.

I too have an engine I'd love to adapt to the Rift. Unfortunately I've been self-funding development on it for the past two years (a nice way of saying I'm unemployed...), so the money just isn't there. I'm following along so I know what's going on, and hopefully I'll ship in time (and enough people will like what I've done) to have funds for Rift v2.0.

Because there will be a v2.0.

DM

[NickK]

I'm subscribed to the topic and check on it daily-- also hoping to get in on the ground floor with Kickstarter as I've got a game engine ready to be adapted to the Rift once I have a unit and/or enough specs to work from.

I too have an engine I'd love to adapt to the Rift. Unfortunately I've been self-funding development on it for the past two years (a nice way of saying I'm unemployed...), so the money just isn't there. I'm following along so I know what's going on, and hopefully I'll ship in time (and enough people will like what I've done) to have funds for Rift v2.0.

Because there will be a v2.0.

DM

Unemployment is a great opportunity to start or join an open source project with a public website. If you do something important it can land you a job to do what you love doing anyway. Also, you can file a patent application in your own name while being unemployed which is not always possible while being an employee.

Along the same lines, if this Palmer guy can deliver on his first RIFT project, I'm afraid we won't see the 2nd version. It's very likely that someone will buy him out.

[PalmerTech]

Nobody is going to buy me out unless it is on terms that benefit the VR community as a whole. I turned down a job offer from a Fortune 500 company (In the top 100) to do this on my own terms.

Stupid, maybe, but it felt like the right thing to do at this point in time. Maybe I can work with them in the future if we prove that VR can be great!

[DragonM]

Unemployment is a great opportunity to start or join an open source project with a public website. If you do something important it can land you a job to do what you love doing anyway. Also, you can file a patent application in your own name while being unemployed which is not always possible while being an employee.

Along the same lines, if this Palmer guy can deliver on his first RIFT project, I'm afraid we won't see the 2nd version. It's very likely that someone will buy him out.

I've contributed to two different large open source projects and created a small one of my own (a GKrellM plugin, now obsolete). There are no employers on this part of the continent who hire developers because they have open source street cred.

And software patents are illegal. Or should be. You can't patent math. Even if they're technically legal in the US, I consider them immoral and severely damaging to any industry that depends heavily on software. Incidentally, John Carmack was a member of the IGDA patents committee that opposed software patents in general and game software patents in particular, so you should be ashamed to show your face in this thread, talking like that.

DM

[NickK]

Nobody is going to buy me out unless it is on terms that benefit the VR community as a whole. I turned down a job offer from a Fortune 500 company (In the top 100) to do this on my own terms.

Stupid, maybe, but it felt like the right thing to do at this point in time. Maybe I can work with them in the future if we prove that VR can be great!

If you can deliver on the RIFT project then it was likely a right decision. Your value should go up.

In addition, Carmack was right. You guys are so idealistic sometimes that it can damage your goal. Your idea of "no profit" is one of them. There is nothing wrong with being incorporated and making profit. "Company" or "patents" are just tools. It's what you do (good or evil) with these tools that matters. Not every company and not every patent is used to troll or vulture.

For example, you can sell above cost and use this "profit" to hire someone else to help you. In fact, startups rarely have profits. They reinvest all their cash flow into their own people and products to accelerate the project because it takes too long to accomplish anything working alone. If your goal really was to help the VR community, wouldn't it make sense to use your skills designing advanced VR hardware and have someone else, without those skills, spending their time over that bath assembling it?

In addition, have you thought about a possibility that some jaskass will sue you over RIFT with some spurious claims? If you are incorporated with limited liability, the company will take the legal and financial hit. Otherwise, it is your *personal* responsibility. He/she can go after your personal assets. In an ideal world you can trust people not to do that crap over a prototype kit like RIFT. In the real world, there are always jaskasses. How will the VR community benefit if you are swamped by legal paperwork?

I'm wondering if Carmack and ID software would be willing to help you with legal issues.

I've contributed to two different large open source projects and created a small one of my own (a GKrellM plugin, now obsolete). There are no employers on this part of the continent who hire developers because they have open source street cred.

And software patents are illegal. Or should be. You can't patent math. Even if they're technically legal in the US, I consider them immoral and severely damaging to any industry that depends heavily on software. Incidentally, John Carmack was a member of the IGDA patents committee that opposed software patents in general and game software patents in particular, so you should be ashamed to show your face in this thread, talking like that.

DM

I am also against software patents but I live in the real world. And in the real world there are other important uses to patents:
+ VC funding is a lot easier to obtain if you have a patent (even provisional).
+ Patents can be used defensively, i.e. discourage others from suing you.
+ You can donate your patent to the free software foundation to prevent others from patenting something similar.
+ And last but not the least - I didn't say it should be a software patent. There are hardware patents, you know?

I don't see why I should be ashamed of the above. For example, if Palmer comes up with a great idea to improve his RIFT hardware, he should definitely patent it. I personally know an entrepreneur who didn't do it and paid dearly for it: his business partners (a large corp) stole the idea, patented it behind his back and then killed his business through courts. Do you want the same to happen to your projects or RIFT? It may happen if Palmer is not careful.

[brantlew]

I personally know an entrepreneur who didn't do it and paid dearly for it: his business partners (a large corp) stole the idea, patented it behind his back and then killed his business through courts.

Perfect example of why most of the world (and soon the US) is completely backwards on the fundamental purpose of patents. First-to-file patent law is an atrocity and has nothing to do with protecting inventors and everything to do with simplifying government procedures and satisfying corporate lobbyists.

And software patents are illegal. Or should be. You can't patent math. Even if they're technically legal in the US, I consider them immoral and severely damaging to any industry that depends heavily on software.

I think it should be valid to patent software and algorithms. The problem to me is that almost all software patents are derivative ideas. Patent regulators should be strict, hire knowledgeable reviewers, and only grant a handful of software patents a year that represent truly innovative ideas. But they continue to grant software patents for all manner of obvious, derivative, and useless dreck. I am personally listed on a couple of US patents that I can honestly say are just completely laughable and ridiculous - basically a few dozen if-then statements masquerading as "AI". In fact I argued with the CEO when they were being filed that the software in question was utterly devoid of anything novel. But again - the meaning of patents has been completely distorted into a corporate tool instead of an individual property right. First-to-file law just makes this worse.

[DragonM]

In addition, Carmack was right. You guys are so idealistic sometimes that it can damage your goal. Your idea of "no profit" is one of them. There is nothing wrong with being incorporated and making profit. "Company" or "patents" are just tools. It's what you do (good or evil) with these tools that matters. Not every company and not every patent is used to troll or vulture.

While that's true, the implication running through all of Palmer's comments concerning the price point of the Rift has been that all of his predecessors have been overpriced. And they have been. $30,000 is a ludicrous price for a piece of equipment with basically no software support and definitely no established market. Even the $750 price of the Sony HMD is ridiculous. When you're trying to invent an industry, so to speak, there's a serious chicken and egg problem. You can't sell the hardware because there's no software to support it but you can't create the software to support it unless you sell the hardware. This has been a problem since the dawn of the VR concept, and it's still a problem.

Palmer is seeking to correct that problem by shaving his margins to the very thinnest and getting as many units as possible into the hands of tinkerers and developers. The best way to do that is to minimize the price. Not all of us have the kind of deep pockets Mr. Carmack has that lets him play with rockets as a hobby. On the contrary, this project attracts mainly hobbyist developers operating on a shoestring budget, precisely because Palmer has gone out of his way to minimize the price. And it's working. It's attracting interest and getting press attention. From there, chickens happen. (Or possibly eggs.)

In addition, have you thought about a possibility that some jaskass will sue you over RIFT with some spurious claims? If you are incorporated with limited liability, the company will take the legal and financial hit. Otherwise, it is your *personal* responsibility. He/she can go after your personal assets. In an ideal world you can trust people not to do that crap over a prototype kit like RIFT. In the real world, there are always jaskasses. How will the VR community benefit if you are swamped by legal paperwork?

He has. If you read back (many pages back), you'll see him lamenting the costs of establishing an LLC. He knows the value of it and he's done it. No worries there. I'm under the impression that Kickstarter specifically encourages it.

I am also against software patents but I live in the real world. And in the real world there are other important uses to patents:
+ VC funding is a lot easier to obtain if you have a patent (even provisional).
+ Patents can be used defensively, i.e. discourage others from suing you.
+ You can donate your patent to the free software foundation to prevent others from patenting something similar.
+ And last but not the least - I didn't say it should be a software patent. There are hardware patents, you know?

• I don't want VC funding. I see no reason whatsoever to give the lion's share of my revenue, forever, to somebody whose sole contribution is being lucky enough to already be rich. If I wanted to do that, I'd get a damn job. That's practically the definition of a job.
  
  More to the point, it's blindingly obvious that Palmer doesn't want VC funding either. Hence, Kickstarter, and its very attractiveness in the first place. Kickstarter is a formalized way of soliciting donations, not investment, in order to implement a project. If Palmer succeeds, he retains total ownership of the Rift. If he fails, the donaters are out their money and that's too bad. But the point of Kickstarter is specifically to solicit donations small enough that even if a given project fails after achieving its funding goal, none of the donaters are significantly affected financially.
• Patents are only useful defensively if you a) have a lot of them; and b) have enormously deep pockets capable of funding a multimillion dollar law firm to defend them. Without both a) and b), you're a paper tiger, and the trolls know it.
• Donating to FSF does at least obviate part b) above, since the FSF has lawyers on staff, and if enough people do it, FSF qualifies under part a). But that doesn't help me (or Palmer) all that much.
• Last, you were addressing me, so I answered. I'm a software guy. Software is my response. If you meant to include Palmer in that bit of advice, it might have helped to say so.

I don't see why I should be ashamed of the above. For example, if Palmer comes up with a great idea to improve his RIFT hardware, he should definitely patent it. I personally know an entrepreneur who didn't do it and paid dearly for it: his business partners (a large corp) stole the idea, patented it behind his back and then killed his business through courts. Do you want the same to happen to your projects or RIFT? It may happen if Palmer is not careful.

That isn't an appreciable risk, for me. Nobody is using patents for hostile takeovers of games. The trolls won't bother me unless and until I have enough money to be an interesting target.

On the other hand, that's definitely a risk for Palmer. Especially now that the US is First to File, even when Palmer publishes the full specifications of the Rift as part of the project, those published specs no longer automatically torpedo a patent that claims what's in his specs (and it wasn't actually "automatic" before; it still cost a fortune in legal fees).

Unfortunately there's no cure for unethical and immoral business practices such as those you describe, short of shooting the perpetrators in the back of the head. The US courts have failed. They enable a thief in lawyer's clothing to bankrupt you, before or after the fact. Don't patent, and they'll patent ahead of you and bankrupt you. Patent, and they'll sue you with one of their patents and bankrupt you. Your only hope, as a lone inventor, is to not create something that a rich bully wants to own. The patent system is an utter disaster and has failed to achieve the goal of advancing innovation and the useful arts as stated in the Constitution. The cases where a lone inventor patents something new and successfully defends his patent are vanishingly rare, and cases similar to the one you described are legion. Better to save the filing fees and make more Rifts.

I'm just glad Palmer isn't afraid, and is innovating anyway, even though he's not only doing it without a net, he's doing it with a permanent looming threat out on the horizon. More power to him.

DM

[NickK]

DM,

I believe you somewhat misunderstood my post. I am not disagreeing with you on many of the items you talk about. My point was to explain that it doesn't make me EVIL or SHAMEFUL only because I propose that you or anyone else may consider filing a patent. Do you agree with this?

Palmer is seeking to correct that problem by shaving his margins to the very thinnest and getting as many units as possible into the hands of tinkerers and developers. The best way to do that is to minimize the price. Not all of us have the kind of deep pockets Mr. Carmack has that lets him play with rockets as a hobby. On the contrary, this project attracts mainly hobbyist developers operating on a shoestring budget, precisely because Palmer has gone out of his way to minimize the price. And it's working. It's attracting interest and getting press attention. From there, chickens happen. (Or possibly eggs.)

That's true. However, I don't believe that hobbyists will make a big difference (no offense to anyone on this board). Hobbyists have been tinkering with VR for a couple of decades already with no significant progress. It's the entrepreneurs that make a difference. What Palmer really needs is a small commercial market to start out small but profitable. Then, he can use the proceeds from that niche market to reinvest into improved hardware and higher volume production if possible. IMHO, until the *commercial* market picks this up, VR will remain a niche market.

Let me give an example of a small commercial market that may potentially work:
What: Hazard and accident training for oil rig employees.
Problem: When emergency happens people often panic, don't know what to do, or get lost. For example, after a BP oil rig explosion in Gulf of Mexico 11 workers were never found. You can't just give the workers a bunch of instructions and expect them to remember it when an accident happens.
Goal: Teach employees what to do and how to react when accidents happen, in the way that they can easily memorize their way out. Note that many of these employees are not computer guys. They are blue collar workers.
Proposed solution: Create a VR training program that emulates several different accidents. The oil company already has schematics of its rigs. All they need to do is to construct a 3D world of it and have workers *experience* accidents and find their way to lifeboats starting from different locations. Such experience is a lot easier to remember and follow when real accidents happen.
Cost: Compared to the cost of lives lost, lawsuits filed and monetary damage, $600 or $1200 for a RIFT hardware makes no difference for the oil company. There are also open source OpenGL engines that can be used to model accidents. Palmer + some OpenGL guy can sell this packaged system (software+hardware) to simulate oil rig accidents. Would that make them evil, greedy or shameful? I don't think so. Such a project can save lives of innocent people.

P.S. If anyone patents this idea I will use the Dragon's method detailed above to "shoot the perpetrators in the back of the head". Just kidding.

I'm just glad Palmer isn't afraid, and is innovating anyway, even though he's not only doing it without a net, he's doing it with a permanent looming threat out on the horizon. More power to him.

If the Kickstarter project gets successful funding it may be worth it for Palmer to spend some time with patent attorneys. He and Carmack can probably consider sitting down and discussing which hardware decisions can be patented by enemies. IMHO, a couple of weeks now can save him months or years of litigation down the road.

[DragonM]

I believe you somewhat misunderstood my post. I am not disagreeing with you on many of the items you talk about. My point was to explain that it doesn't make me EVIL or SHAMEFUL only because I propose that you or anyone else may consider filing a patent. Do you agree with this?

I don't, no, and therein lies the crux of the matter. I see absolutely no redeeming value in the patent system. I question whether it ever had redeeming value, even historically. Certainly the quality of patents has neither improved nor degraded in the past 200 years. You've only to look at historical patents for examples of that. Often humorous examples. It's as bad now as it's ever been. It's also as good now as it's ever been, and that's pretty stinking foul.

The utility of the patent system rests on the assertion that an inventor will come up with something substantially unique. This has never happened, in the history of the world. Precisely the opposite happens--people tinkering around with the same problem at about the same time in history will always generate convergent solutions. I'll go even further. The moment in history leads people of an inventive nature to tinker with the same things at the same time. The combination of the popular zeitgeist and physics practically guarantees these results. Consider for a moment how we got here. Yes, right here. John Carmack and Palmer both took a look at the state of the art in electronics manufacturing and commodity computer components and, independently, decided that now is the time to take another run at this VR thing. This is not a unique occurrence. So the most fundamental claim about the patent system is nonsense, and all the rest is flimflammery and legal terrorism.

Patent litigation is solely a mechanism to provide employment and enrichment to lawyers. It does not and has never succeeded in fostering innovation. On the contrary, it stifles and crushes innovation at every opportunity, leaving behind it a trail of broken dreams and smashed hopes. Nor do I see any way to correct it. You are allowed precisely as much justice as you can buy, and no more. Giant corporations will always be able to buy more justice. Therefore patents filed by small business, the proverbial entrepreneur, range from a minor useless expense to a nightmarish bankrupting expense. If you are exceedingly lucky, someone wealthy might like to gently co-opt your invention, tossing a little money in your direction (very little money), in order to use it as a weapon against someone else. If you're unlucky, you will receive a legal punch to the face and still lose control of your work. More often than either of these scenarios, you will simply be ignored.

I could go on, and pile up citations, but we're wandering rather far afield from the point of this thread. I'll close with one final observation. I am supposed to be one of the people sheltering under the rubric of the patent system. I have an engineering degree and 15 years of experience and a fairly decent imagination. And after 20-some years of reading tech news, I believe the patent system is a trap. Doesn't that mean the patent system has failed to achieve its nominal goal, practically by definition? Admittedly it's somewhat circular logic, but there's a kernel of truth in there.

That's true. However, I don't believe that hobbyists and tinkerers will make a big difference (no offense to anyone on this board). What Palmer really needs is a small commercial market to start out small but profitable. Then, he can use the proceeds from that niche market to reinvest into improved hardware and higher volume production if possible. IMHO, until the *commercial* market picks this up, VR will remain a niche market.

I believe hobbyists and tinkerers will make a big difference for two reasons: 1) Sony, giant megacorporation that it is, has a polished, assembly-line-pretty HMD available right this minute. And nobody cares. The tech news sites dutifully regurgitated their press releases and then it sank without a trace. Commercial activity is no guarantee of anything. 2) Palmer is a hobbyist and a tinkerer.

However, once again, refer back (many pages back) in this thread, and you'll see that Palmer has decided that the Kickstarter should buy him manufacturing equipment, so he can make the parts for Rifts himself. That's commercial activity, of a sort. It puts his feet on the road to continuing to make Rifts, refine and improve the design, and further cut the cost of the thing.

But he isn't going to try to write the proverbial "killer app" too. Someone else will probably do that. These things are notoriously unpredictable. The only thing we know from history is that it takes more than one person tinkering to generate the requisite snowball to get things rolling.

P.S. If anyone patents this idea I will use the Dragon's method detailed above to "shoot the perpetrators in the back of the head". Just kidding.

Another fine example of why the patent system is useless and broken. What you described is in no way worthy of a patent to begin with. The concept is blindingly obvious to anyone who has seen a few episodes of Star Trek, or a whole slew of bad '80s movies. Yes, I know, it was an example, and the remark about patenting it was tongue in cheek, but it was too good of an example... to pass up the chance to pillory it. Implement what you propose and copyright it, if you like, but don't think you have a right to have the only oil rig instructional VR program in the country for the next 20 years.

If the Kickstarter project gets successful funding it may be worth it for Palmer to spend some time with patent attorneys. He and Carmack can probably consider sitting down and discussing which hardware decisions can be patented by enemies. IMHO, a couple of weeks now can save him months or years of litigation down the road.

And I say it's a waste of time and money. Even if he follows your advice, even if he successfully isolates some rare bit of genius in what he's done, if a well-heeled commercial bully decides they want it, years of litigation is precisely what he can look forward to. Hell, I strongly suggest he be very careful NOT to do a patent search to find out if what he's doing now has already been patented. Because it probably has. Years of litigation is bad enough without triple damages for willful infringement.

DM

[zoost]

As doom 3 BFG Edition will incorporate native stereoscopic 3D HDTV support for XBOX and PS3, will it be possible to connect the Rift directly to a console, or is the Rift only availble for PC?

[Chriky]

@ DragonM, NickK

While this discussion is quite relevant for the forum, as there are people working on innovative stuff, and there are several aggressive companies reading, and quite possibly major companies lurking... it really isn't relevant for this thread. A lot of people have email alerts for this thread waiting for news about the RIFT, so maybe a mod could break off the patent/legal discussion somewhere else?

[petersmc]

If I am not mistaken, the "open-source" nature of the project means that no company can own the rights to employing PalmerTech's approach. I would hope that once there is sufficient adoption of Palmer's "standard" that large manufacturers will fall over themsleves to deliver their version of RIFT. Perhaps we will finally see the VR I (we) have been dreaming of since the '90s. I just hope Palmer gets rewarded for his efforts somehow.

[GL1zdA]

Will the Rift be compatible with glasses? I've seen someone asking about it on oculusvr.com, but unfortunately there is no reply. My astigmatism is mild, but for obvious reasons I'd rather see sharp image.

[hast]

Will the Rift be compatible with glasses? I've seen someone asking about it on oculusvr.com, but unfortunately there is no reply. My astigmatism is mild, but for obvious reasons I'd rather see sharp image.

It has been discussed previously in this thread. But the short answer is that there will be possible to adjust diopters on the lenses. So it should work if you wear glasses to correct for myopia. I'm not sure if it will be able to correct astimatism though.

A possible work around is to add padding and distance to the goggles so you can wear glasses underneath. I'm sure there will be several other people in a similar situation who will want to make that possible.

[spyro]

@PalmerTech:

Are there any news about the 250 Hz custom firmware for the headtacking sensor? There were several questions about it but I've not seen a clear statement about this (sorry if I just missed it).

At the E3, John Carmack said he added additional sensor code from his rocket company Armadillo Aerospace to a custom firmware which lower latency just written for him directly from Hillcrest Labs.

PattrickRedeck told us here, that this custom firmware software (which is the base for JC's work) will NOT be available for the public.

So, where will it come from then? Will the RIFT just be shipped with the stock firmware (the high latency version)?

Maybe a FAQ about the project would be a good idea.

Keep on the good work and best wishes!

spyro

[DougWolanick]

I just noticed that 10 hours ago a newsletter was sent from OculusVR.com but it went to my gmail spam folder.

In case you missed it, here is what it says:

Hi ,

I This is the first edition of the Oculus newsletter! They will not be too frequent, only when there is important information to put out there.

Here is the current status of the project:

1) Some big names in the industry are getting involved that will let me continue to work after the Kickstarter on a more consumer oriented device. It will take a long time to get to that point, so the low priced Rift kit is still going forward at full steam!

2) There is a lot of interest from several large game developers. Some of them will end up supporting the Rift, some will not, and I will update you once things are more solid.

3) The Kickstarter had to be delayed to allow for these new developments, but the length will be shortened from 60 days to 30 days, meaning that it will take no longer than it would before. So yes, the launch of the Kickstarter is delayed till early July, but the end of the project remains unharmed!

4) To answer a common question: The kit will not need soldering, it should be within reach of anyone who can fold, glue, and screw things together.

I will send out another update in the next week, tak to you then!


Palmer Luckey

Oculus

[German]

PattrickRedeck told us here, that this custom firmware software (which is the base for JC's work) will NOT be available for the public.

He did not say it would be unavailable to the public, he stated that it was "not something ready to release into the wild." Note the "ready" part of that, which implies that it may become available in the future.

I know it is exciting times but there's really no point sweating the details right now and picking apart every little bit of information. The kickstarter hasn't even begun yet, at which time we will be getting a lot more information just by virtue of being a kickstarter. It's just one more week or so.

[Cyberqat]

If the Kickstarter project gets successful funding it may be worth it for Palmer to spend some time with patent attorneys. He and Carmack can probably consider sitting down and discussing which hardware decisions can be patented by enemies. IMHO, a couple of weeks now can save him months or years of litigation down the road.

if his only concern is protecting himself from malicious patents there are far easier and less expensive ways.

All he need do is publish the techniques he wishes to be open. After that, such publications become "prior art" that makes any attempt to patent same invalid.

Note: I am not a lawyer and this should not be construed as legal advice. It might be worth paying for a half hour of a real lawyers' time to make sure you do it right. This is still far cheaper then a patent search and filing.

[brantlew]

@Cyberqat: I don't want to start the whole patent discussion again so I'll just mention to look up first-to-invent (the old sane way) versus first-to-file (the new retarded way) which basically tosses prior art out the window.

[PalmerTech]

Without getting into the whole patents argument too much: I think our patent system is broken in a lot of ways, but it still has uses. I do not plan on making a huge portfolio of patents, because at the end of the day, they won't help me much if a huge entity with a lot of money decides to ignore them. I plan on continuing to do what I have been doing this whole time: not keeping any of my designs secret, and putting them out there for hobbyists to improve upon.

The current goal is to get these kits into the hands of as many enthusiasts as possible in the short term at the lowest price possible. Don't take this as anything certain, but I might even be able to ship the entire kit for $499 including the HMD, the tracker, and Doom 3! From there, Oculus will work on a slightly more expensive consumer targeted version and an SDK that developers can use to integrate support. The way I see it, there are two generally distinct outcomes:

1) Oculus wins a big chunk of the (relatively small) VR market, and continues to push forward with immersive technologies on their own.
2) Oculus proves that there is enough interest in VR for one or multiple large companies to throw their weight at making an even better product. That process might involve killing, acquiring, or just plain outdoing Oculus.

Either way, gamers win!

As doom 3 BFG Edition will incorporate native stereoscopic 3D HDTV support for XBOX and PS3, will it be possible to connect the Rift directly to a console, or is the Rift only availble for PC?

Not at this point. There is no easy way to get approval to hook up third party hardware to the Xbox or PS3, so head tracking is not possible. Without head tracking, you have a lot less reason to use an HMD.

Are there any news about the 250 Hz custom firmware for the headtacking sensor? There were several questions about it but I've not seen a clear statement about this (sorry if I just missed it).

No clear statement yet, sorry. Things are not set in stone yet.

[Enzo]

Howdy all, been following this since Carmacks interview, found new article with info that Sony and valve are both interested in this tech link below
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/John-Carmac ... 15618.html

[cybereality]

@PalmerTech: This sounds really promising, and seems like the exciting times are only getting better.

[Jeremy]

Howdy all, been following this since Carmacks interview, found new article with info that Sony and valve are both interested in this tech link below
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/John-Carmac ... 15618.html

I totally concur with Carmack there, and I love his likening the goal of VR to evoking the same feeling you had when you first played a FPS. Bring it on!

I had a couple questions maybe Palmer or someone could answer...

1) Any idea if the rest of the Doom classics included with Doom 3 BFG will support the Oculus? Resolution being what it is, I would think the older games would actually be right at home on the HMD.

2) Is the TrackIR5 the tracker planned for inclusion in the Kickstarter?

[EdZ]

@Cyberqat: I don't want to start the whole patent discussion again so I'll just mention to look up first-to-invent (the old sane way) versus first-to-file (the new retarded way) which basically tosses prior art out the window.

In interests of curtailing this discussion: your statement is completely untrue. First-to-file is still subject to prior art invalidation. In the case of America's switch to FTF (the America Invents Act, or AIA), the definition of prior art was expanded to include publishing and sale from anywhere in the world, and to allow submissions of prior art during the patent application process from anyone (not just the originator of the prior art as previously).
By making the design of the Rift publically available, it becomes public domain, and thus cannot be patented by anyone, including Palmer.
A company could still claim that the design infringes an existing patent, but they could do this no matter what the design or whether it was patented by Palmer or not. There is no protection from frivolous patent lawsuits.

[brantlew]

ok, I stand corrected then

[Okta]

Howdy all, been following this since Carmacks interview, found new article with info that Sony and valve are both interested in this tech link below
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/John-Carmac ... 15618.html

I agree with Carmack but reading the replies there is a huge amount of anti-tech geeks out there that love the current status and just dont want VR of any kind until its the hollow deck. I dont know whats wrong with them but as i have treid to explain to people, fps games have progressed very little since Quake 1 and wont until we move into new interaction territory.

[WiredEarp]

Thats because most people dont actually have any vision and are only able to understand that which they have already experienced.
Therefore, they can handle the idea of stuff like COD(x), with each version improving graphics/sound, but the concept of a complete shift away from what they are experienced with scares them simply because they have no terms of reference to understand it with.

[Endothermic]

I think the main problem especially with posters on a place like tomshardware is they're children (sure some may be in their 20's but sure don't act like it) that have probably never even SEEN an HMD before let alone use one or experience one with a high FOV.

Take for instance posts such as "we're not even close to VR gaming and I'm still waiting for near photo-realistic gaming on my 2D screen. Take Transformer's type CGI or whatever it was, and do that in real time on my single computer instead of pre-rendering it on a super-computer of sorts. Then do that in 3D. THEN we can tackle VR gaming."

They have no notion of what VR actually is, as far as they think VR means everything LOOKS real so if things don't look in real time like they are out of a movie then you can't have Virtual REALity. Try to explain to them that VR is all about "immersion" and not things looking real and they just flame you as a mook that doesn't know wtf they are talking about.

"VR is the future? lol? whos gonna wear that heavy spec while gaming." Post without even finding out what they actually weigh, whats the chances of ever explaining anything to them?

As far as i'm concerned i'd much rather play something with a full FOV HMD with simple flat shaded low polygon characters and sparcly textured worlds for graphics then play one on a tv or monitor with graphics that look like they are out of the transformers movies (ofcourse i'd rather they look like that on the HMD ).

"I'd rather have super high resolution gaming than virtual reality." Seriously they have no idea what words mean or they honestly think that sitting on their couch a few meters away from the TV they'll actually be able to notice any changes with a higher resolution then 1080P (after years of reading toms it's become obvious even though its about computer hardware the majority of the posters are console gamers). Though i'm pretty sure that guy probably mean super high definition (rather then resolution) gaming so that polygon counts are so high and lighting is dynamic etc that everything looks like movie CGI so i'll stick with they don't know the mean of words in which case you have no chance of getting them to see what actual VR is.

Mention head tracking and you'll get swamped with things like you don't need a HMD for head tracking you can use it without one and many people do in arma etc!!! Try to explain it's not full proper head tracking and after all you can only look so far since if you look more then you can't see the screen!!! and they'll just say thats all you need to do so you don't need to fully turn your head around you just need to be able to move it a little so there is no need for an HMD and turn your head any further is ust stupid.

So like wired said the youth this generation are just so COD and movie CGI focused thats all they can see (and know) so the only way things will be better is if that gets better and thats just dependant upon how the graphics look.

I'm sure if they payed a visit to a university or somewhere that has a high FOV HMD even if it did only have something with those plain blocky graphics and tried it then 8/10 of them would change their tune.

[Vaughanabe13]

I'm 24 (I'm not sure if you consider that "children" or not) and I can certainly understand the difference between crappy 'video glasses' (vuzix, etc.) and a high-FOV HMD. And that's coming from someone who has never tried any of the "virtual reality" game setups from the 90's, or any expensive university HMD's.
But you're right, most people these days are idiots, and they don't know that they don't know what they don't know (say that 5x fast!). For some reason, and I have no idea why, people always assume the worst about new technology. New wii console with a second screen? IT'S GONNA BE CRAP. New 3D technology on the big screen? IT'S GONNA BE CRAP. New augmented reality concept from google? IT'S GONNA BE CRAP. New Halo game? IT'S GONNA BE CRAP. New Thai restaurant around the corner? IT'S GONNA BE CRAP. And yet that same person will love the WiiU, love 3D, love the new google glasses, and discover that they love Thai food, and yet they will never go back and say, "hmm, I guess I shouldn't have been so quick to judge those things."

From generation to generation, you will always have the immature kids who act like idiots and don't know what they're talking about. However, the new generation of kids has the ability to spew all of it anonymously on the internet, where nobody will know how old they are. So they have gone from being the minority to the vocal minority.

But here are the things I see people saying in all of the various "John Carmack VR E3 Demo" threads around the web:
"Wake me up when they get 1080p displays in those glasses. Anything less is crap."
"Nobody wants to wear a huge visor on their head."
"Head-tracking has already been around for ages."
"We already have better motion gaming with Kinect".
"They tried and failed at virtual reality in the 90's."
"This will go the way of the Virtual Boy".
"It's way too expensive. Give it to me for <$100"

Basically...

[zino]

I just noticed that 10 hours ago a newsletter was sent from OculusVR.com but it went to my gmail spam folder.

Thanks for pointing that out. It want into my spam folder as well, so it's a pretty safe bet anyone using gmail will not have seen Palmer's newsletter.

[petersmc]

same here. Googlemail put Palmer's newsletter in spam. Cheers for the heads up

[Cyberqat]

@Cyberqat: I don't want to start the whole patent discussion again so I'll just mention to look up first-to-invent (the old sane way) versus first-to-file (the new retarded way) which basically tosses prior art out the window.

Thanks for the reference. But from the wikipedia entry what I get is that his having built a prototype and then published the results, thus documenting the prototype, could easily qualify as "diligently reduces the invention to practice", which is the 2011 criteria. But as always its best to consult a good lawyer (one who isn't just trying to make the most work as possible for himself.)

[LeeN]

You guys have good points but I really like Louis CKs version:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk[/youtube]

[TheRealistWord]

@Endothermic: I think one of the major problems is that most people compare one device to the next based purely on particular specs, like resolution, or physical attributes like weight or design. Of course those are important in any device, but as soon as they notice it's not 1080p, they automatically assume the whole entire device must be crap. I'd honestly take a low resolution, high FOV HMD over a high resolution, low FOV HMD any day. Increasing the resolution will make it look prettier, but increasing the FOV is what will really offer the user a completely new experience.

So in regards to the Rift having a low resolution... of course I'd absolutely love 1080p screens, but I can hold out on that for awhile. The other features of the Rift are what's going to make it a very immersive experience.

I feel that a revolution of sorts is on the horizon, especially since this has piqued the interest of "large game developers" and "big names in the industry". Anyone else anticipating that the Rift could be that one key component that really sets the ball rolling for consumer priced HMD's for gaming and media? With other large companies catching wind and pumping out their own high FOV HMD's? Spark the market, start something new, and within three years, the consumer HMD market could be saturated with an impressive array of devices that sport high FOV's, precise head tracking, no discernible latency, and a completely immersive experience. This could be the very beginning of a paramount shift.

(Or maybe it's all this excitement and a sugar rush talking )

[druidsbane]

I'd honestly take a low resolution, high FOV HMD over a high resolution, low FOV HMD any day. Increasing the resolution will make it look prettier, but increasing the FOV is what will really offer the user a completely new experience.
...
I feel that a revolution of sorts is on the horizon, especially since this has piqued the interest of "large game developers" and "big names in the industry".

I agree with that last point. It's been a chicken and egg problem till now. It remains to be seen how successful Rift is in pushing the industry forward as larger companies seem to like to remain static, why create a retina display until they need to, hence us having PDA's and phones with the same stale interface and physical specs till the iPhone came around.

In terms of revolution, I hope it isn't just about games. The technology that is used in games has gotten so good recently that creating immersive worlds will be the easy part, but using it for education, entertainment, even work will make it far more useful than what we imagine right now and will for the stepping stone for whatever the next generation of technology is that can only be developed once we have widespread use of these devices and can learn their potential and their limitations.

[jimbo2go]

Thanks for the update Palmer, sounds really exciting.

No probs on the delay, good things come to those who wait...

PS - found a little bit on the FOV2GO and RIFT here:

http://www.3dfocus.co.uk/3d-news-2/the- ... ality/8736

I love this bit
"Carmack has agreed to ship a fresh copy of the new Doom 3: BFG Edition along with every RIFT that Palmer gets fundraising for."

So we all get Doom 3 BFG Edition, whoot!! Or is that just over zealous journalism? Or is Palmer going to limit the number he gets funding for .. Noooo! take my money now.

Okay, here’s my first post after lurking for eons. I’m the guy who did the 3D Focus article, and I hope I got all my facts right! I’ve been working with Palmer off and on for the past year on projects at USC and the Institute for Creative Technologies, and designed a project last year with his PR3 HMD (the scuba one). The project was called Shayd (http://www.discovershayd.com/), and we used the PhaseSpace mocap system for both position AND orientation tracking.

Of course the 14 mocap cameras + software from PhaseSpace costs upwards of $80,000 (about $5000 per camera and $10,000 for software), so it sure as hell isn’t going anywhere in the consumer market. However, the tracking was just so god damn tasty that I don’t know if I can go back to anything else and still feel the same!

In my spare time between other VR projects I would like to integrate the RIFT with PhaseSpace, and get a prototype going with a laptop strapped to the player’s back. Given an amusement park sized budget, we could fill an entire warehouse full of PhaseSpace cameras that are daisy chained via trusses on the ceiling. The RIFT would have four or five “active marker” red LEDs on it for tracking, and if we wanted to implement full blown avatar embodiment we can also have the players in mocap suits with LEDs at each joint (between 20-24). PhaseSpace uses active markers (as opposed to passive markers like Vicon) so they can blink at different frequencies and keep each player’s point data separated if they happen to occlude each other.

This is the ideal “VR laser tag” or “VR deathmatch” or "VR holodeck" that everyone has been longing for all these years – we can do this right now, given a fat budget. I’ve been talking to Disney Imagineering about it for the past few weeks, and in reality this VR setup is about 10x less expensive than a roller coaster. At the same time, it would also take about 10x as long to push the same amount of patrons through the experience in a given hour. So theoretically if we were to make ten of these VR laser tag arenas, all different themes (Star Wars, Pirates of the Caribbean, Black Mesa, what have you - depending on IPs), then you would be making the same profit as a roller coaster at the same rate. Theoretically, that is

Anyway, just wanted to hop into the conversation, this is all super exciting with the RIFT and I wholeheartedly believe Palmer is going to revolutionize the game industry in due time. There's so much happening right now, I can barely keep my head from imploding, haha.

[brantlew]

@jimbo2go: Good info. I would love to try that PhaseSpace system as well.

A large building + optical tracking system + high FOV HMD + portable rendering computer is the right mix of ingredients to implement the VR environment that everyone is anticipating.

[DragonM]

@Endothermic: I think one of the major problems is that most people compare one device to the next based purely on particular specs, like resolution, or physical attributes like weight or design. Of course those are important in any device, but as soon as they notice it's not 1080p, they automatically assume the whole entire device must be crap.

Which just goes to show they really are children. I consider 1080p inadequate. That's why I use two CRTs running at 1800x1440. I hate the whole "HD" thing. It was a major setback for the display industry. Computer monitors were HIGHER resolution than HD, but HD marketing turned into an unstoppable juggernaut, so computer monitors actually got worse while riding the coattails of that marketing. For 5 years, display tech has stagnated, with only one display significantly better than HD (the Apple Cinema Display and its clones) and it's been outrageously expensive. So the "HD HD HD" chant is worse than stupid, to me.

Of course there's a reason the Cinema display is expensive: it's not easy to make them without dead pixels. But that could have been solved, if it wasn't for the market going backwards. Manufacturers weren't about to spend money improving the process for making actual high resolution displays when they were getting rich making crappy low resolution HD displays.

Even when I can afford a Rift, I expect to continue using my monitors for quite some time to come. The high FOV of the Rift will be great for virtual worlds and the resolution will simply be tolerated. For some things, such as displaying text (and lots of it), resolution is indispensable. It's going to be a while before there's a VR code development environment.

This could be the very beginning of a paramount shift.

(Or maybe it's all this excitement and a sugar rush talking )

Probably, because the word you were looking for was 'paradigm'. And don't say it. It makes you sound like a dweeb. (No offense.)

DM

[android78]

@Endothermic: I think one of the major problems is that most people compare one device to the next based purely on particular specs, like resolution, or physical attributes like weight or design. Of course those are important in any device, but as soon as they notice it's not 1080p, they automatically assume the whole entire device must be crap.

Which just goes to show they really are children. I consider 1080p inadequate. That's why I use two CRTs running at 1800x1440. I hate the whole "HD" thing. It was a major setback for the display industry. Computer monitors were HIGHER resolution than HD, but HD marketing turned into an unstoppable juggernaut, so computer monitors actually got worse while riding the coattails of that marketing. For 5 years, display tech has stagnated, with only one display significantly better than HD (the Apple Cinema Display and its clones) and it's been outrageously expensive. So the "HD HD HD" chant is worse than stupid, to me.

Of course there's a reason the Cinema display is expensive: it's not easy to make them without dead pixels. But that could have been solved, if it wasn't for the market going backwards. Manufacturers weren't about to spend money improving the process for making actual high resolution displays when they were getting rich making crappy low resolution HD displays.

Even when I can afford a Rift, I expect to continue using my monitors for quite some time to come. The high FOV of the Rift will be great for virtual worlds and the resolution will simply be tolerated. For some things, such as displaying text (and lots of it), resolution is indispensable. It's going to be a while before there's a VR code development environment.

This could be the very beginning of a paramount shift.

(Or maybe it's all this excitement and a sugar rush talking )

Probably, because the word you were looking for was 'paradigm'. And don't say it. It makes you sound like a dweeb. (No offense.)

DM

I totally disagree. While the resolution may not have increased at the rate you would like, the quality of the experience has improved markedly. To quote you, you say 'Which just goes to show they really are children.', then continue on as if resolution is the be all and end all of the quality of displays. I would much rather a nice, lower resolution but easier on the eye display with more natural colors and much more space on my desk then higher resolution.
The other advantage of the HD (meaning 1080p/i resolution) is STANDARDIZATION! Having a standard resolution makes the display a lot more supportable without having to worry that fonts, formatting, etc will be messed up due to different resolutions. This is one thing that most on this forum seem to neglect, for a consumer, they want something that just works without having to play with settings and adjust a bunch of different parameters. I like to call it the black box idea. You don't want to know what happens inside. This is why consoles have overtaken PCs for gaming in the past 10 years or so, even though you can get a better system/experience for less money with PC, there is the problem that you have to look at the back of every game box to determine if your system with its configuration of graphics card, processor, operating system is supported. With a games console, you see the console name on the game box, put it in your system and it works!
While I appreciate projects like the rift and am tempted to create one myself, these will never be adopted by the public en mass since it is not just plug and play. If it could incorporate HDMI 1.3 with 3D signal, that's when it could be taken up by the masses, since it is a true standard for the signal. This doesn't mean that it's not a good product or that the resolution isn't good enough, just it's not user friendly.

[WiredEarp]

I used to use a CRT, it supported something ridiculous like 2048x1900. 23".
My 26" LCD kicks its ass however, colors are brighter etc. I dont really see the need for more than 1920x1200 in a 26" monitor. If you go 30", you can get that extra resolution, but I dont really have a need for it, and I suspect most people dont really need/want more resolution either. Those using their PCs for graphics work would be an exception of course.

@ the resolution you are running at, you'd lose very few pixels going to a 26" / 16:10 monitor...

[Christopher]

This certainly has a lot of potential! Oh and the grass is green too:)

Does anybody know if there a concerns regarding eye damage using a HMD? I'm not talking eye fatigue but vision blurring leading to eye glasses.

Doom 3 BFG should rock!

[DragonM]

I totally disagree. While the resolution may not have increased at the rate you would like, the quality of the experience has improved markedly. To quote you, you say 'Which just goes to show they really are children.', then continue on as if resolution is the be all and end all of the quality of displays. I would much rather a nice, lower resolution but easier on the eye display with more natural colors and much more space on my desk then higher resolution.

I can't argue with the improvements flat panels have made in freeing up space on your desk, but the "natural colors" thing is bogus. When LCD panels first went mainstream, their compliance with CIE 1931 (and later standard color gamuts) was quite poor. It's only been in the last couple years that LCD panels met CRT standards, and very recently that they started to exceed CRT standards.

In any case, if you'd read some of my other posts, you'd know that I don't think resolution is the be all and end all of display quality. At least, not for all displays. Context matters. For my flat, static, sitting-on-my-desk display, resolution is extremely important, and that's what led to my complaints about HD. High resolution isn't just for graphics guys, as WiredEarp seem to think. Refer to the end of my previous post. I have a need to display large quantities of text simultaneously. LARGE quantities. For that, resolution is indispensable. For HMDs, field of view is more important. This is why I haven't criticized the Rift's initial resolution, and have, in fact, defended it.

The other advantage of the HD (meaning 1080p/i resolution) is STANDARDIZATION!

Oh yeah. As if what we needed was another standard. Because the other 39 standard resolutions were getting lonely.

This is one thing that most on this forum seem to neglect, for a consumer, they want something that just works without having to play with settings and adjust a bunch of different parameters. I like to call it the black box idea. You don't want to know what happens inside. ... This doesn't mean that it's not a good product or that the resolution isn't good enough, just it's not user friendly.

Well yeah, but that's because this isn't a consumer forum, by any stretch of the imagination. It's a hobbyist forum. Everybody here (except apparently you) is here because they don't have a problem with needing to know what happens inside. Some of us even enjoy knowing. VR and its enabling technologies are in their infancy. (A very extended infancy, to be sure, but still their infancy.) Anybody who claims they have a polished, mature, ready-to-meet-Apple-gadget-consumer-expectations product is blowing smoke. We aren't there yet. If you're here and reading this forums, that should be blindingly obvious. If you knew anything about product development, you'd know these things don't just spring full-blown from the forehead of Zeus, either. It takes time and an amazing amount of effort to mature a concept into a consumer product. An amazing amount of effort has already been expended in this space, after all, and we're still a long ways away from any such thing.

The Rift is a good step along the road.

DM

[android78]

Thanks for setting me straight, DragonM... and sorry to everyone for taking this thread off track.
My frustration is with the fact that we don't seem to have advanced much in the HMD field since about 10 years back, and that we still have to go to extreme lengths like hacking together a HMD like Rift to get a half decent experience. Then, after we have gone to all lengths to create this, it will have the same old problem with having to use specialized display and input drivers (sourced from different providers) just to get it to work and likely to be hit-and-miss for the games you will be able to use it.
I'm not criticizing this product or the effort for this, and I agree with your statement 'It takes time and an amazing amount of effort to mature a concept into a consumer product. An amazing amount of effort has already been expended in this space, after all, and we're still a long ways away from any such thing.' But my point is that we still seem to be within the first km or a marathon 10 years after the race began.
BTW, regarding lots of text; I also have to deal with a lot of text in my work and find that 3 LCD monitors work well for this. It personal preference, but I much prefer the 'quieter' feel of even a poor LCD to a CRT. Even top of the line CRTs set to the max refresh rate gave me a headache and I find this isn't the case with LCD. Also, my ears are super-sensitive to the ringing of a CRT screen that most people seem unable to hear.

[cybereality]

To be honest, those "kids" on the mainstream sites aren't totally off. Up until just recently, consumer HMDs pretty much sucked. They were low res, blurry, tunnel vision, had glitchy trackers, expensive, sad software support, etc. We are just starting to get some decent HMDs that don't cost $20,000 and up. Trackers are getting much better and much cheaper. We now have more standardized 3D formats and 3rd party 3D software. Lots of things coming together now. We are on the cusp of something big. But its not ready for the general public just yet.

While much cheaper, VR is still pretty expensive once you factor everything in. For a full consumer-level setup you could easily spend $2,000 or more, while you can get a console system *and* an HDTV for $500 these days. You still need to be a techie to get the software to work correct, and it some cases need to develop your own hardware/software to accomplish this. And even after all this money and trouble, its still nowhere close to what you see in the movies. Well at least until the Rift comes out. That will surely make some waves, but I feel its just the beginning.

[WiredEarp]

@ DragonM:

High resolution isn't just for graphics guys, as WiredEarp seem to think. Refer to the end of my previous post. I have a need to display large quantities of text simultaneously. LARGE quantities. For that, resolution is indispensable.

Yes, but the thing is, you don't really HAVE much higher resolution, at least with the setup you quoted.

1800x1440 = 2592000 pixels
1920x1200 = 2304000 pixels

so, you are gaining only 288,000 pixels, which is nice, but you are using a 4:3 monitor, which means that for displaying text, you are probably going to be able to see LESS than if you had a 1920x1200 monitor in portrait mode. Of course, that will depend if the text is wider or deeper.

I just dont see how your setup is significantly better in terms of resolution for text OR graphics, compared to a 2x 1920x1200 setup in portrait mode... not to mention the extra desk space requirements. Also, unless you have a very large CRT (larger than 23") everything will be easier to read on the bigger screen.

@ jimbo2go, that sounds like a cool system, and I agree, the tech is almost there now for VR lasertag... its just the tracking implementations holding stuff back. If price is no object, this can be solved now as you say.

[DragonM]

Yes, but the thing is, you don't really HAVE much higher resolution, at least with the setup you quoted.

1800x1440 = 2592000 pixels
1920x1200 = 2304000 pixels

so, you are gaining only 288,000 pixels, which is nice, but you are using a 4:3 monitor, which means that for displaying text, you are probably going to be able to see LESS than if you had a 1920x1200 monitor in portrait mode. Of course, that will depend if the text is wider or deeper.

I just dont see how your setup is significantly better in terms of resolution for text OR graphics, compared to a 2x 1920x1200 setup in portrait mode... not to mention the extra desk space requirements. Also, unless you have a very large CRT (larger than 23") everything will be easier to read on the bigger screen.

True enough, and it's to my lasting regret that I don't have a 30" 2560x1600 LCD panel flanked by two 27" 2560x1440 LCD panels (which weren't available until very recently). Alas, the money isn't there. I've been in austerity mode for 4 years now, first anticipating being unemployed (and saving as much of my salary as I could), and then actually being unemployed. Back when I had disposable income, widescreen LCD panels were far from ideal in portrait mode. LCD panels have long been optimized for viewing in landscape mode, right down to the arrangement of the subpixels, so a panel in portrait mode looks very strange. I found it hard to read, at the time. I gather that's less of a problem these days.

I didn't mean to imply I currently have the ideal setup. Far from it. Both of these monitors have at least one blown capacitor, so there are times when the picture goes all wibbly on me. Nothing I can do about it right now. But as you acknowledged, I do have substantially more pixels than an HD widescreen, and for the price (i.e. already paid for), it can't be beat.

DM

[WiredEarp]

Yep, a 30" sounds like it would be perfect for you. Especially with flanking monitors!

I bought my CRT solely for 3D back when 3D LCD's didn't exist, and its still sweet for everything (i have it on my spare spare PC). Definitely back when LCD's were newer, CRTs had many advantages (were way better with scaling game resolutions to full screen, faster response, higher resolution, etc).

I know what you mean about disposable income... too many toys to buy, too little money. Ive had to hold off on the ST1080 as I've decided I cant afford TWO new HMD's just yet, and I want the Rift

[petersmc]

Thanks for the update Palmer, sounds really exciting.

No probs on the delay, good things come to those who wait...

PS - found a little bit on the FOV2GO and RIFT here:

http://www.3dfocus.co.uk/3d-news-2/the- ... ality/8736

I love this bit
"Carmack has agreed to ship a fresh copy of the new Doom 3: BFG Edition along with every RIFT that Palmer gets fundraising for."

So we all get Doom 3 BFG Edition, whoot!! Or is that just over zealous journalism? Or is Palmer going to limit the number he gets funding for .. Noooo! take my money now.

Okay, here’s my first post after lurking for eons. I’m the guy who did the 3D Focus article, and I hope I got all my facts right! I’ve been working with Palmer off and on for the past year on projects at USC and the Institute for Creative Technologies, and designed a project last year with his PR3 HMD (the scuba one). The project was called Shayd (http://www.discovershayd.com/), and we used the PhaseSpace mocap system for both position AND orientation tracking.

Of course the 14 mocap cameras + software from PhaseSpace costs upwards of $80,000 (about $5000 per camera and $10,000 for software), so it sure as hell isn’t going anywhere in the consumer market. However, the tracking was just so god damn tasty that I don’t know if I can go back to anything else and still feel the same!

In my spare time between other VR projects I would like to integrate the RIFT with PhaseSpace, and get a prototype going with a laptop strapped to the player’s back. Given an amusement park sized budget, we could fill an entire warehouse full of PhaseSpace cameras that are daisy chained via trusses on the ceiling. The RIFT would have four or five “active marker” red LEDs on it for tracking, and if we wanted to implement full blown avatar embodiment we can also have the players in mocap suits with LEDs at each joint (between 20-24). PhaseSpace uses active markers (as opposed to passive markers like Vicon) so they can blink at different frequencies and keep each player’s point data separated if they happen to occlude each other.

This is the ideal “VR laser tag” or “VR deathmatch” or "VR holodeck" that everyone has been longing for all these years – we can do this right now, given a fat budget. I’ve been talking to Disney Imagineering about it for the past few weeks, and in reality this VR setup is about 10x less expensive than a roller coaster. At the same time, it would also take about 10x as long to push the same amount of patrons through the experience in a given hour. So theoretically if we were to make ten of these VR laser tag arenas, all different themes (Star Wars, Pirates of the Caribbean, Black Mesa, what have you - depending on IPs), then you would be making the same profit as a roller coaster at the same rate. Theoretically, that is

Anyway, just wanted to hop into the conversation, this is all super exciting with the RIFT and I wholeheartedly believe Palmer is going to revolutionize the game industry in due time. There's so much happening right now, I can barely keep my head from imploding, haha.

What is the general opinion on suspended full body haptic harnesses in conjunction with HMDs? I see ideas about large rooms, or omnidirectional walkways, etc. While these would be interesting in terms of doing rolls, or something, I think the big limitation is getting haptic feedback from structures in the virtual environment: I mean, not being able to move your arm through a wall, or climbing stairs, etc.
To my mind, a motorised exoskeleton that is suspended, perhaps in a 3 axis swivel, would be as close as we can get without jacking directly to the nervous system. Even a "basic" model covering legs and arms would be interesting.
I know that Palmer considers this approach to be overly expensive given that the user can "learn" limitations in the VR environment and get a similar experience. Its all a bit moot for me given I have not experienced RIFT, or many HMDs in general, but to my mind it would be cool to be able to climb stairs and feel the resistance in the powering leg, or to have an arm and wast rotation give resistance when you are trying to put an arm through a wall, etc. This also opens the door to VR avatars that are "superhuman" but still give some feedback. With a 3 axis rotation, you then get to make people feel really ill when falling, etc

[bobv5]

This place really got busy! Any plans for a second batch of rifts?
The resolution is suddenly a much smaller problem than it was two months ago, as it sounds like quite a few programs are going to be specially modified to work at HMD res. Even if only Doom 3 ends up actually happening, that is a lot of content if fan made mods will work with the new engine.

petersmc, have a look at the Novint Xio. Should allow a pretty cool lightsabre game if nothing else. Or at this thread for something that will work with most software.

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=13980

Taking longer than I hoped, and not as good as what you were talking about, but certainly a step closer.

[petersmc]

This place really got busy! Any plans for a second batch of rifts?
The resolution is suddenly a much smaller problem than it was two months ago, as it sounds like quite a few programs are going to be specially modified to work at HMD res. Even if only Doom 3 ends up actually happening, that is a lot of content if fan made mods will work with the new engine.

petersmc, have a look at the Novint Xio. Should allow a pretty cool lightsabre game if nothing else. Or at this thread for something that will work with most software.

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=13980

Taking longer than I hoped, and not as good as what you were talking about, but certainly a step closer.

Yeah, I saw the Xio pop up on google, and the teasers about "full body" under development. Seems like an interesting start, but as you mention, I am thinking something more hardcore. What got me thinking was themepark level funding, as I doubt a full-body suspeneded rig could be priced at the consumer level. Having said that, people do buy cars, so you never know.
I need to do some research on the DOFs verses diminishing returns on immersion level, as this starts becoming a basline on potential costs, not to mention the control loop compexity.

[coresnake]

Just checked out the Xio on YouTube, holy screw that poop is SWEET. I especially liked the accelerometer based running and jumping support! I hope the Xio gets released at a decent price. Now all I have to sort out is a decent backtop solution....

[AntonieB]

Palmer, please start talking about the Rift again this thread is not on topic anymore and really in need for some solid information about the project for example some photo's from the latest build or other kickstarter related information anything to get this thing ontopic

[profvr]

Okay, here’s my first post after lurking for eons. I’m the guy who did the 3D Focus article, and I hope I got all my facts right! I’ve been working with Palmer off and on for the past year on projects at USC and the Institute for Creative Technologies, and designed a project last year with his PR3 HMD (the scuba one). The project was called Shayd (http://www.discovershayd.com/), and we used the PhaseSpace mocap system for both position AND orientation tracking.

Of course the 14 mocap cameras + software from PhaseSpace costs upwards of $80,000 (about $5000 per camera and $10,000 for software), so it sure as hell isn’t going anywhere in the consumer market. However, the tracking was just so god damn tasty that I don’t know if I can go back to anything else and still feel the same!

In my spare time between other VR projects I would like to integrate the RIFT with PhaseSpace, and get a prototype going with a laptop strapped to the player’s back. Given an amusement park sized budget, we could fill an entire warehouse full of PhaseSpace cameras that are daisy chained via trusses on the ceiling. The RIFT would have four or five “active marker” red LEDs on it for tracking, and if we wanted to implement full blown avatar embodiment we can also have the players in mocap suits with LEDs at each joint (between 20-24). PhaseSpace uses active markers (as opposed to passive markers like Vicon) so they can blink at different frequencies and keep each player’s point data separated if they happen to occlude each other.

This is the ideal “VR laser tag” or “VR deathmatch” or "VR holodeck" that everyone has been longing for all these years – we can do this right now, given a fat budget. I’ve been talking to Disney Imagineering about it for the past few weeks, and in reality this VR setup is about 10x less expensive than a roller coaster. At the same time, it would also take about 10x as long to push the same amount of patrons through the experience in a given hour. So theoretically if we were to make ten of these VR laser tag arenas, all different themes (Star Wars, Pirates of the Caribbean, Black Mesa, what have you - depending on IPs), then you would be making the same profit as a roller coaster at the same rate. Theoretically, that is

Anyway, just wanted to hop into the conversation, this is all super exciting with the RIFT and I wholeheartedly believe Palmer is going to revolutionize the game industry in due time. There's so much happening right now, I can barely keep my head from imploding, haha.

Interesting project. How do you find the stability of the optical motion capture for tracking the HMD? I would worry about high frequency jitter.

If only these guys had wide FOV and better "games" to play: VIRTSIM. VIRTSIM is a tactical squad trainer for the US Army, 13 motion optically motion-capture soldiers in a basketball court!

[EdZ]

I wonder if CLANG may support the Rift at some point. From there, you're just a 2^16km diameter black sphere from a functional Metaverse.

[LeeN]

What does the resolution and optical effect of the Rift compare to in a real display?

With a real display the VAR is technically the opposite, the pixels further from you are visually closer together then the pixels closest to you due to the angle. Does Rift neutralize this effect or does it flip this in the opposite direction?

It would be interesting to get an idea of what would be the equvalent of a retina display with the Rift's optics and to get an idea how far away we are from that kind of resolution.

[DragonM]

It would be interesting to get an idea of what would be the equvalent of a retina display with the Rift's optics and to get an idea how far away we are from that kind of resolution.

There are two things standing between the Rift and a Retina display: driver electronics and production capacity.

Palmer has mentioned more than once that most screens designed for mobile phones use custom driver circuitry, presumably because it's less power hungry than standard LVDS. So the Rift would need some sort of driver board designed and built before it could use a Retina display. That's probably months of an electrical engineer's time, and quite a bit of money for manufacturing.

Which leads directly to the other problem. Apple has a tendency to sign contracts with its manufacturers that push their production capacity right to the limit. Even if their contract with Apple doesn't grant Apple exclusive rights to the parts, the size of the order has historically meant that Apple does effectively get exclusive rights because the manufacturer simply can't make parts any faster. This is likely to be true of Retina displays for some time to come, especially given the fact that other cell phone manufacturers will be wanting to play catch-up with Apple, so when manufacturing capacity finally is available, it will be absorbed by orders from another major cell phone maker.

Given the circumstances, it seems unlikely that the Rift will get Retina panels any time this year. I'd be surprised if it were possible within the next 12 months. A special miracle for every month less. (If you have a fairy godmother, the preferred miracle would be Toshiba going into volume production on their 498 ppi panel, and giving Palmer first crack at the parts.)

DM

[EdZ]

It would be interesting to get an idea of what would be the equvalent of a retina display with the Rift's optics and to get an idea how far away we are from that kind of resolution.

It's tricky enough to define a 'retina display' with a fixed PPI at a fixed distance. Depending on how you measure visual acuity, the 'retina display' of the iPhone, for example, is not. As the Rift should ideally be at a fixed distance from the eye in a fixed location relative to the head, it might be better to talk about resolution in terms of the angular diameter of a pixel, probably in arc-minutes (1/60 a degree) to start with.

[bobv5]

I'm pretty sure I saw the answer to that question somewhere, maybe on the leep vr website. Don't have time to search right now, but here is the address if anyone wants to look.

http://www.leepvr.com/

As a rough guess, I would say a 4k display would give a similar angular res as a 1080 monitor.

[LeeN]

I started doing my own calculation and the lowest pixels per degree you get from a retina display is 33.958 pixels per degree. That's holding the iphone at 12 inches. If you stretch that to the 90 degrees of Rift that is 6144.955 pixels!!! That is 9.6 times bigger than Rift. But this doesn't take into acount the effect of VAR because there isn't enough information.

[bobv5]

.........

I thought the 4k meant vertical, like it is with 480 or 720 or 1080. No. It means horizontal. I assumed it would be around 8k horizontal. I was wrong. Either, I am foolish, or the people who name this stuff are. I'll let you guys choose.

[Endothermic]

Wow didn't know about the Novint Xio, I particularly like this part from the FAQ "It is designed to be a consumer product. We expect it will be comparable to the Falcon in price." that Falcon is only $250, $280 with the pistol grip! RIFT + Xio = Fully immersive visual, motion and feeling experience under $1000US

Now we'll just need that $AU to get back up to $1.08US

[coresnake]

DragonM It is true that the Toshiba 480 ppi would beat all contenders but as far as we know it may just be vaporware. LG's offering on the other hand is going to provide a 440 ppi handset that is actually being released around Q4 of this year.

I wonder if it would be possible to manufacture a 'mod chip' for driver boards of mobile phones...

[LeeN]

When I was talking about retina display earlier, I meant the equivalent for Rift and not the actual display. That is a display the average person could not make out the pixels.

That said, the equivalent for a 6 inch display (stretched by the optics to 90°) would be 2390 ppi! As far as I know that's currently not possible.

But then again my calculations do not take into account VAR.

[sambeckett]

since you guys were talking about the iPhone screen, check this out

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/28/sanw ... be-viewer/

[PatimPatam]

Unfortunately I won't be able to attend QuakeCon but I would love to see Carmack and Palmer showing off a demo of Doom 4 running on a modified 120Hz display Oculus Rift.

Only wishful thinking.. but that would make some news!

[Mel]

since you guys were talking about the iPhone screen, check this out

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/28/sanw ... be-viewer/

I was unable to find any more info about this device. I'd like to know its optical specs. Anyone?

[brantlew]

I bet the FOV2GO has a much better FOV than this thing for a fraction of the price. Palmer might know.

[nicolasbol]

For anybody worried about the custom 250Hz for the FSRK-USB-2:

I got in touch with Hillcrest Labs via email and their sales engineer seem to be extremely willing to cooperate. I asked them to make it available to us or sent it to me so I can host it...I will see what they come back with.

But maybe Palmer already has a plan to have it preloaded ?

[cybereality]

My understanding is that Palmer would be buying the tracker in bulk directly from the company, so I am assuming he's able to request the custom firmware. If not pre-loaded, then surely he could make it available for download. But I'm not sure anyone ever confirmed that, its just what I was assuming based on what was said.

[brantlew]

FYI: My Hillcrest tracker is in transit and should arrive next Monday, and I will adding FreePIE support for it shortly there-after. So all you Rift followers should have generic head-tracking support by the time the Rift ships. (I'll have to check on the firmware as well)

[andrewe1]

So it's been two weeks already right?

Should we expect the kickstarter soon?

[Okta]

FYI: My Hillcrest tracker is in transit and should arrive next Monday, and I will adding FreePIE support for it shortly there-after. So all you Rift followers should have generic head-tracking support by the time the Rift ships. (I'll have to check on the firmware as well)

Hey Brant what type of tracking will the Hillcrest support in use with the Rift with freepie?

[NickK]

Hey Brant what type of tracking will the Hillcrest support in use with the Rift with freepie?

It should be good enough for tracking semi-naked females with hi-tech gear.

[Chriky]

So it's been two weeks already right?

Should we expect the kickstarter soon?

You're right; it'll be two weeks on Monday perhaps the Kickstarter will launch then.

[brantlew]

@NickK: Just mouse emulation - so not as good as the custom 3-axis support that Doom will have but at least generic enough that any FPS could be used with it.

[WiredEarp]

Does anyone know what the new Doom BFG Edition is going to support in terms of head/gun movement? Obviously, the HMD is going to be trackable using different options. What about the gun tho? Is this also going to be usable with a tracker, or are we going to be stuck with mouse emulation for gun aiming, like we are with ARMA2?

[Endothermic]

Does anyone know what the new Doom BFG Edition is going to support in terms of head/gun movement? Obviously, the HMD is going to be trackable using different options. What about the gun tho? Is this also going to be usable with a tracker, or are we going to be stuck with mouse emulation for gun aiming, like we are with ARMA2?

http://roadtovr.wordpress.com/2012/06/0 ... ack-video/

From 2:53 into the first video.

"you can bring the weapon up or down independant of your view"
"you can aim it like a console game while still looking up or down independantly on there"

So gun movement is independant from head movement but that leaves two questions. He says you cnna bring the weapon "up or down" or aim like a console while looking "up or down". No mention of side to side so is it just a matter of he just didn't mention that or is it only vertical movement which is independant from gun and head while they both share horizontal movement.... i'd expect both are indepedant cos it'd be silly if it wasn't.

Second it sounds like you move the mouse or other controller and that moves your gun/sight and if you move your head you just look around. Good thats how it should be but is the gun/sight still linked to the head movement... ie you can turn your head left but still aim the sight to the right and up but does the sight actually move with the head movement? So if you don't move the gun left/right, up/down but only move your head does the sight/gun still stay in the same position ie if your facing north and start shooting then you turn your head 90deg is the gun still facing and shooting north or is it now shooting east where your looking at just that your able to move the sight all around that east facing view with the gun controller?

IMO thats better then just aiming with head tracking which is one annoying and can get really tiring or sore if your try and do lots of quick changes but it would still be odd though you could probably get use to it. I'm hoping they are completely independant so that if you look left 90deg and don't move the gun controller then you can no longer see your crosshair or the actual gun unless you then swing the gun controller left and it comes back into view. That way you can be looking behind you say to see if anything is coming but continuing to fire at whatever is coming from the front.

I guess for that to work as well you would also need an independant body rotation from the head tracking to so that if you face behind and press the forward key/stick then you will be walking the opposite way that you are facing which I think would be good and is how things should be since you could then be running down a hallway or something but continue to look around your sides and behind you while your running to see if anything is hiding there etc.

I can see some people getting annoyed with that but for me it is more annoying when your look to the right and your now running in that direction instead of where you wanted to run. Simple enough solution just add a body center key so that if you decide you want to move in the direction your facing then rather then having to press one of the rotate controls and get it to match up with your orientation you just press the key and it turns your body/legs to center on your current view.

Thats my ideal setup for head/movement/gun control to have it so that your running north up the large room toward the exit/safety, your gun is pointed behind you firing at the baddies chasing you and your looking all around the room to see if you've missed anything or where your partner that has suddenly vanished is. You don't need any additional axis or tracking or anything just has to be done in the software so that the head tracking moves your head, the keyboard/controller moves your body/legs and the mouse/controller moves your gun/sight with no link between the 3 though you can add options to link them up if people prefer to have some of them linked.

[WiredEarp]

"you can bring the weapon up or down independant of your view"
"you can aim it like a console game while still looking up or down independantly on there"

Those quotes don't really answer my question though - whether the aim will support tracker inputs, as well as the view. It would be a bummer if it was limited to joystick/mouse/keyboard and had no absolute input ability.

I agree, the ideal setup has tracking of the hips, head, and gun. This is what the virtuality setup had. IIRC the hip sensor gave the direction vector, and a button on the joystick moved you forward in that direction. The gun and head were independently tracked as well, so you could turn away and move away while twisting your upper body around and looking and shooting backwards.
It would be awesome if Doom 3 BFG Ed has similar capability to this, would make it a real platform for VR game development.

[coresnake]

It would be awesome if Doom 3 BFG Ed has similar capability to this, would make it a real platform for VR game development.

Wow why didn't I think of this until now... the modablility of id's games is already unsurpassed.. imagine the mods that would come out of this!!!!

[Endothermic]

Okay I just took "or are we going to be stuck with mouse emulation for gun aiming," to mean in reference to head tracking so where you looked was where you aimed.

Well it's gonna be mouse/controller for the aiming from the video but there have been various tracked controllers over the years that games just see as mice/joysticks (althoguh most don't work particularly well) so I don't see you couldn't use some other kind of tracker.

Not to concerned about any kind of hip sensor or something since i'm more then happy to just sit in place and play rather then having to actually turn around, the main thing is just being able to walk in one direction while looking in another and shooting/swinging weapon in another yet again.

the modablility of id's games is already unsurpassed..

I dunno i'd argue Unreal was/is more modable

I just can't wait to experience Skyrim on the Rift (someones gonna have to make it work, they have to!!!) it's beautiful enough just looking around the game on a monitor but to do that with such a huge FOV that it looks like your there.... even with the low resolution it's gonna feel unbelievable.

[brantlew]

I just can't wait to experience Skyrim on the Rift (someones gonna have to make it work, they have to!!!) it's beautiful enough just looking around the game on a monitor but to do that with such a huge FOV that it looks like your there.... even with the low resolution it's gonna feel unbelievable.

Well here you go. Emerson is on the case...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjV0jLVC9MU[/youtube]

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=138&t=15086

[benz145]

Someone should really start working on getting Dear Esther ready for the Oculus Rift, it seems like it would be an ideal game to show off head-tracking and immersiveness of a high FoV HMD like the Oculus Rift. It's also a Source game so I imagine it's easy to mod, and it's indie so it's cheap ($10)!

See the trailer here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7VJ4lP-05A

[PatimPatam]

I agree with Endothermic on this one, I think head/gun/movement should be totally independent by default, or at least have the option to play this way.

[Caillin]

I agree with Endothermic on this one, I think head/gun/movement should be totally independent by default, or at least have the option to play this way.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Arma2 or the upcoming Arma3 as a possible target for this technology. It was founded from the outset with having separate head and gun movement. This makes using something like the TrackIR very effective from a first person perspective in infantry form rather than just using it for flying. I also think the guys from Bohemia would be more willing than the usual game developer to take a crack integrating something like the RIFT due to having an existing market from militaries with their Virtual Battle Simulator, where immersion would be very important, as well as their willingness to support the TrackIR, which a lot of developers have overlooked.

[spyro]

Someone should really start working on getting Dear Esther ready for the Oculus Rift, it seems like it would be an ideal game to show off head-tracking and immersiveness of a high FoV HMD like the Oculus Rift. It's also a Source game so I imagine it's easy to mod, and it's indie so it's cheap ($10)!

Absolutely!

I asked the developers about that but until now I got no answer from them:
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/s ... tcount=139

A simple head tracker to mouse emulation will not work here. I don't know If it's possible to manipulate the camera via the Source SDK directly via commands from "outside" so one could write a wrapper or something.

Valve released instructions how to implement a 6DOF tracker directly in a Source game a while ago:
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Head_Tracking

Is this possible without support from the original developers?

Maybe we should open a new thread in their forum for that.

spyro

PS: IHMO it would be possible to support 3rd-Person Games, too. In this case you would "be" the camera flying behind your character (in fact the first person) with full headtracking support.

[WiredEarp]

@ Caillin: yep, Arma would be great for a HMD. However, currently, Bohemia apparently doesn't support anything but mouse input for the other devices, which means its no good for a VR setup with a gamegun, only useful for sit down playing using a mouse ;(

@ spyro: thats a very good link, thanks!

[brantlew]

A simple head tracker to mouse emulation will not work here. I don't know If it's possible to manipulate the camera via the Source SDK directly via commands from "outside" it should be possible to write a wrapper or something.

Valve released instructions how to implement a 6DOF tracker directly in a Source game a while ago:
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Head_Tracking

Is this possible without support from the original developers?

A mouse emulator would work, but not as well as direct camera manipulation and you wouldn't have roll control. But as a first approximation it would still be pretty good.

Thanks for the link to the Source head tracking API. I was totally unaware that they allowed that level of control. Kudos to Valve. I've been looking for something like that, because there are so few platforms to test realistic head and motion tracking with. I could easily see direct Rift support being added to a number of Valve games via this modding SDK. It seems designed with exactly that type of third-party support in mind (not sure if Esther is supported though since it's not directly listed in the FAQ) Also I can imagine the SDK being used to create a generic FreePIE proxy driver. That would put one additional level of software between the game and the tracker hardware, but the benefit is that it would immediately create support for a host of other trackers. Definitely interesting.

[Endothermic]

Penumbra, Amnesia: The Dark Descent, so many games will feel so different and great on the Rift just hope they all become available on it. But getting a little ahead of ourselves till we actually see what the Rift is like instead of just imagining what it should be like

[rmcclelland]

A couple things I noticed:

1. Palmer said he was approached by a Fortune 100 company wanting to hire him. Looking at the list, the only relevant companies I see are Google, Apple, and Microsoft. My bet is that it was Microsoft.

2. Depending on how this plays out, Palmer and Carmack could be seem as the fathers of modern VR. That would probably require Palmer to have an excellent business mind, which he may or may not, a great product, and luck.

3. Looking at what Apple did with MP3 players and smartphones, which was not to have the first product, but the first great product, I expect they will get into the HMD game, perhaps being the first to make an HMD for the masses.

My speculation.

[Endothermic]

My bet is that it was Microsoft.

That would be my bet too. They want people to continue using Windows over OSX and Linux so after the terror of what is the Metro interface think Windows 10 with a fully immersive HMD, Kinect controller interface would work really well just as long as they did it right. And if the Rift really kicks things off I can easily see them bringing out something like it for the new Xbox since they'd make a bazillion $ from it seeing everyone with an Xbox that plays COD and that crap would get one which would be about 99.72% of the Xbox population

Looking at what Apple did with MP3 players and smartphones, which was not to have the first product, but the first great product,

I wouldn't call the iPod a great product since they sounded just as crap back then as they do today it was just great mass marketing not to mention Apple already had a large flock of sheep ready to instantly buy and popularise the product so it appears to be a great product

Similar thing with the iPhone though that isn't too bad a product, look at it more as a small tablet with phone capabilities though since as an actual "phone" iPhones arn't that great but they sure are great gadgets.

Seeing iGlasses already exist i'd like to know what Apple would call their HMD Though being Apple i'm sure they could find some way to sue Virtual I/O over the iGlasses name I for one hope Apple don't make an HMD, you can bet if they did you could on'y use it with Apple products cos it would have that stupid Apple interface instead of DVI/HDMI and it sure wouldn't have a USB port for tracking if it had any (seriously why is there still no USB or atleast extra expensive Apple flash card slot on the iPad???) not to mention it would cost 2 - 3x what it should which might put other maufacturers off building one when they see people arn't buying the Apple one because of those issues.

Though if they some how did make an HMD that had a good FOV and high res, for some unApple like reason didn't price it way over the top like usual and it did work with something other then Apple equipment then i'd still get one.

In the end it doesn't matter who does it as long as one Big company does it and gets the ball rolling. Sony was a nice try and regardless of the comfort issues and FOV I suspect if they did a better job at marketing it and price it just a little bit better then that could of been the rolling ball we needed which i'm surprised they didn't since it wasn't their first attempt if anyone remembers the Glasstron.

I think one big hurdle to get over is peoples perception of HMDs since in the last 5 years there have been alot of those crappy video glasses HMDs come out. The ones that are really small units, have a tiny FOV and untill recently not even svga res. There have been so many and many of them actually quite cheap so they've also sold alot and then to peoples disappointment they find out just how crap they are so they and likely generalise that all HMDs are like that so probably wont even want to look at a good HMD when one is out.

[cybereality]

Someone should really start working on getting Dear Esther ready for the Oculus Rift, it seems like it would be an ideal game to show off head-tracking and immersiveness of a high FoV HMD like the Oculus Rift. It's also a Source game so I imagine it's easy to mod, and it's indie so it's cheap ($10)!

See the trailer here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7VJ4lP-05A

I have L4D almost working with my 3D driver, I'm hoping other Source games will be easy to add support for. This is going to allow 3DOF headtracking, meaning the pitch and yaw will be mouse emulated and the roll will be injected straight into DirectX. Hoping to have a version ready for the Rift launch, supporting at least L4D and maybe a couple other games.

[nosignal]

Hi Peter,

Truly fantastic stuff you are doing. Great to see you are getting support.

I realise you are probably very busy at the moment, but I hope you have a second. I have been building prototypes of something similar, but for a different use case (I want to use a tablet computer as the 7" device, and preferably monoscopic, so the screen has to be about 8cm away from the lens which is ok for my needs).

My biggest difficulty is the lenses - a 2x fresnel bent into a curve was interesting - it counteracted the distortions, but the fresnel lines were quite distracting. Best I had so far was a 127cm 2x magnifying lens (one for both eyes), but that is hard to come by and a bit impractical.

Could you (or someone else here) tell me how/where you get your lenses - maybe you have documented this already and could send me a link? I would also be interested in buying a kit without the display or tracker - essentially just the lenses and goggles.

Many thanks

[tagged]

That would be my bet too. They want people to continue using Windows over OSX and Linux so after the terror of what is the Metro interface think Windows 10 with a fully immersive HMD, Kinect controller interface would work really well just as long as they did it right...

After using the Metro interface myself I strongly believe it's a vast improvement over "file explorer" as they're calling it now. It's typical "change is evil and scary" that paints a bad picture for Metro, as it's the step in the right direction imo. The fear is unwarranted as the key functionality of the start menu hasn't change at all, hit windows key and start typing what you want then hit enter, both work identical on 7 and 8. While for keyboard/mouse users the design may fool you into thinking it's primarily mouse/touch driven, they cleverly snuck in a very keyboard-centric design to give it the best of both worlds for tablets and desktops. In fact it's faster when using a keyboard compared to good old windows 7, and even with a mouse you'll achieve the same results as 7 with at least 1-2 fewer mouse clicks.

It's far from a perfect design (is there such a thing?) but I can say with a straight face that it's light years ahead of explorer for 99% of users. File based UI's are quickly becoming the niche they are destined to be and we should all be thankful for that. Consumer tech only reaches it's pinnacle when it never gets in the way of what you want, allowing everyone with an IQ from 50 to 150 to utilize it.

I wouldn't call the iPod a great product since they sounded just as crap back then as they do today it was just great mass marketing not to mention Apple already had a large flock of sheep ready to instantly buy and popularise the product so it appears to be a great product

It's hard to believe but Apple wasn't always at the top. In fact it was the iMac and iPod that saved the company, only a die hard "flock of sheep" to be found at that time.

The real reason they become so big imo is the same thing that companies are still trying to emulate. It was simple enough for the layman to use and never intended to get in your way. The circular click wheel and the combined software (much better after those dinosaurs got on board) were light years ahead of the competition. It doesn't matter if the competition's product could make you a sandwich and fetch you a beer when holding down the command button and then pressing two other buttons simultaneously, new tech doesn't have a high chance of becoming mainstream until a toddler can use it... Sans beer of course

Similar thing with the iPhone though that isn't too bad a product, look at it more as a small tablet with phone capabilities though since as an actual "phone" iPhones arn't that great but they sure are great gadgets.

Nice point that extends to other gadgets today. Take the TV for example, you can no longer buy a brand new TV today. Instead you can buy a computer than emulates a TV. The future is computers all the way down!

Sorry for the little off-topic post, I'm a little OCD with UI design. It does have some merit when talking about the Rift but more on topic: I'm managed to seduce my way into early talks with a company who might play Santa and gift me their software to use with the Rift. If things go well I'll be designing a showcase/game from the ground up to show off the Rift and all it's goodness. I'll admit I'm bad at keeping people in the loop on these things, but when the time comes I'll open a new thread to discuss my progress. It'll have to wait until after I receive my Rift naturally, but I'll be throwing the cash at Palmer come KickStarter.

[Chriky]

Yep, sure looks like Valve

Any news Palmer?

[bamdastard]

I've been watching this for a while now. I'm a web developer and hobby game developer who's been a strong proponent of stereo3d since I got my Edimensional glasses so long ago. If there's anything I can do to lend a hand I would be honored to help out in any way possible. be it with my skills or my time.

Is there an API I can download so I can start modifying my game to support the display when it comes out?

I would like to create a plugin for panda3d to make it as easy as possible to use (that's the engine I am most familiar with). Then from there port the plugin to other engines.

But I would seriously love to help with anything from web development or assembling units (a problem being that I live in Alaska) to hacking support into existing engines.

Thanks

-Collin

[Torchedini]

Palmer can you give more information about how big your kickstarter goal is going to be ?

Don't want to be cutting it close to imminent failure. Because if you fail we can't get devices or at least not via kickstarter. Which would make me sad panda

[bobv5]

"And if the Rift really kicks things off I can easily see them bringing out something like it for the new Xbox since they'd make a bazillion $ from it seeing everyone with an Xbox that plays COD and that crap would get one which would be about 99.72% of the Xbox population "

I doubt that. The multiplayer COD crowd are more intrested in death/kill ratio than immersion. They generally consider sitting at at pc to be too much effort, when they could sit on a sofa instead, so would not like having to stand. Strangely they are happy to use a joypad, when a mouse offers far higher accuracy.

I think Nintendo might be on to something, as all the wii u needs is a head mount and and a lens and it will be a proper VR system.

EDIT- Palmer, if it is Valve, give them a slap and tell them to spill some news on when the next half life game will be. I know they don't like to give release dates, but "we are making it, it will be out in the next ten years, and maybe it will have HMD support" would make a lot of people happy.

[cybereality]

Does anyone know which tracker is going to be used in the Rift bundle? I remember its from Hillcrest Labs, I just need the model number so I can order one. Thanks.

[BillRoeske]

As far as I'm aware, it's the FSRK-USB-2. That's the one that John Carmack posted about using, anyway.

[cybereality]

Thanks BillRoeske! Just ordered it. Want to make sure I have time to get head-tracking support into my driver before the Rift launch.

[Endothermic]

when they could sit on a sofa instead, so would not like having to stand.

No reason to need to be standing I know i'll prefer sitting and turning body with the keyboard instead of a hip sensor most of the time I'm sure if they released a decent one with good head tracking and MS got with Activision and released it as a COD Pack like how you paid more and got that headset with the game then the majority of COD Xbox gamers would buy it considering nearly every idio...err... person I know that played COD paid the extra to get the edition with the headset even though they all already had good quality headsets

I think Nintendo might be on to something, as all the wii u needs is a head mount and and a lens and it will be a proper VR system.

I dunno problem if Nintendo di it would be the history with the Virtual Boy could tarnish it no matter how good it is. After all just look at how everyones saying how stupid the Wii-U is and just a gimick and useless and crap and bla bla when they havn't even seen one so if they brought out a product which has had a similar and pretty bad failure then I don't see why they wouldn't be saying the same crap about it regardless of how good it actually is.

Maybe after the Wii-U is out though if its not as "gimicky, useless, crap, waste of money" as so many people are saying and expect it to be then releasing an HMD for it later on might not suffer so much backlash from the Virtual Boy, though the big thing about the Wii-U is the screen on the controller which is gonna be moot if they then made an HMD for it

"we are making it, it will be out in the next ten years, and maybe it will have HMD support" would make a lot of people

Only if they also said if it was Half-life 3 or Halfe-life 2 Episode 3 or or or if it turns out to be Half-life Oblivion where you play the aliens!!!

[WiredEarp]

I dont think COD gamers are going to want to drop down from 1920x1080 (or even 720P) to 640x800. Hell, most of them would prefer higher resolution to even 3D monitors.
This will probably change once they have played games using a HMD.

[Endothermic]

I dont think COD gamers are going to want to drop down from 1920x1080 (or even 720P) to 640x800

I'd expect if MS did bring one out for the new Xbox then it would be atleast 1080P. Anyway starting to diverge off topic from the Rift

[AntonieB]

Yeah, this thread is already derailed lots of pages back Palmer should post something / anything about the progress!! so we are back on topic

[spyro]

Yes, some updates would be nice. Is there a FAQ yet?

spyro

[GL1zdA]

I hope Rift's wide FOV won't collide with Apple's new "peripheral vision" patent: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/04/apple_iglass/ .

[brantlew]

Yeah, this thread is already derailed lots of pages back Palmer should post something / anything about the progress!! so we are back on topic

There are lots of other discussion threads in the forum that talk gaming in general, consoles, head trackers, etc.. That's where a lot of this discussion could branch out and leave this thread dedicated to Rift KickStarter talk.

[Endothermic]

I hope Rift's wide FOV won't collide with Apple's new "peripheral vision" patent: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/04/apple_iglass/ .

No chance they are nothing alike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... oLOyFbqFDU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 5sRdBUyr2c

Those were in another thread, sounds like apple patented the same thing but for an HMD where as the Rift it is actually the main display that is in your periphery (well getting into the periphery anyway).

So rather then a high FOV HMD if apple releases one using this it will just be a Sony or other video glasses type HMD but with coloured lights on the side of your eyes that match whats being displayed so that your peripheral vision detects motion and prevents you from getting motion sickness as quick (from the tunnel vision effect of low fov HMDs) since if it was a high FOV HMD then there would be no need for these lights on the side to trick your peripheral vision.

I guess Apple could try and say something about it makes it seem like a high FOV or bla bla bla so the Rift behind a high FOV HMD is in breach of the patent but then it just becomes a case of prior art since high FOV HMDs were around a long time before Apple filed that patent.

[WiredEarp]

I had a brief look at that patent, it just sounds like an ambilight type setup, on a HMD.
Beats me how you can patent that, but then again, half the stuff that gets patented these days is total crap.

[CyberVillain]

@NickK: Just mouse emulation - so not as good as the custom 3-axis support that Doom will have but at least generic enough that any FPS could be used with it.

I sent a PM to John C and asked if he could supply me with a SDK for Doom 3 BFG so we could have 3 axis native support in FreePIE for Doom 3 (As a separate plugin) but he never got back to me :/
If we had that any tracker could be used not just the Hillcrest (Which is not sold outside the US as far as I can tell)

[profvr]

[
If we had that any tracker could be used not just the Hillcrest (Which is not sold outside the US as far as I can tell)

They will happily ship them to Europe (and thus probably elsewhere), but both times we ordered some they insisted on sending by courier, which added $100 to the price (though we did get them in 48 hours!).

[nrp]

@NickK: Just mouse emulation - so not as good as the custom 3-axis support that Doom will have but at least generic enough that any FPS could be used with it.

I sent a PM to John C and asked if he could supply me with a SDK for Doom 3 BFG so we could have 3 axis native support in FreePIE for Doom 3 (As a separate plugin) but he never got back to me :/
If we had that any tracker could be used not just the Hillcrest (Which is not sold outside the US as far as I can tell)

I suspect it would not be impossible to emulate Hillcrest's devices. They publish the HID descriptors they use.

[CyberVillain]

@NickK: Just mouse emulation - so not as good as the custom 3-axis support that Doom will have but at least generic enough that any FPS could be used with it.

I sent a PM to John C and asked if he could supply me with a SDK for Doom 3 BFG so we could have 3 axis native support in FreePIE for Doom 3 (As a separate plugin) but he never got back to me :/
If we had that any tracker could be used not just the Hillcrest (Which is not sold outside the US as far as I can tell)

I suspect it would not be impossible to emulate Hillcrest's devices. They publish the HID descriptors they use.

Thats why I asked John for a public interface for Doom 3 BFG so that I can write a plugin for Doom 3 in FreePIE (Not part of FreePIE core but a separate download), or use a open source interface like Freetrack, but thats Windows only and I do not think a Linux guy like John would like that

[CyberVillain]

[
If we had that any tracker could be used not just the Hillcrest (Which is not sold outside the US as far as I can tell)

They will happily ship them to Europe (and thus probably elsewhere), but both times we ordered some they insisted on sending by courier, which added $100 to the price (though we did get them in 48 hours!).

100 USD plus Swedish taxes, that would make it around 250 dollars

[Krisper]

[
If we had that any tracker could be used not just the Hillcrest (Which is not sold outside the US as far as I can tell)

They will happily ship them to Europe (and thus probably elsewhere), but both times we ordered some they insisted on sending by courier, which added $100 to the price (though we did get them in 48 hours!).

100 USD plus Swedish taxes, that would make it around 250 dollars

I think they wanted around $160 to send one to Aus. I decided to wait for a RIFT kit.

[brantlew]

@CyberVillain: Instead of emulating the USB driver, it would be easy to do a DLL swap of libfreespace. Carmack probably uses that library like everyone else and you could short circuit those calls to insert your own tracker.

[CyberVillain]

@CyberVillain: Instead of emulating the USB driver, it would be easy to do a DLL swap of libfreespace. Carmack probably uses that library like everyone else and you could short circuit those calls to insert your own tracker.

True! Thats probably pretty easy, we will see if he uses them

By the way, check out the FreePIE forums, lots of code checked in today

[andrewe1]

Has Palmer said anything about the kickstarter?

It's been almost 3 weeks now......whats happening?

[optimus]

New rule: if you aren't Mr Palmer or JC, don't post in this thread. It'll save a lot of angst!

[PalmerTech]

Could you (or someone else here) tell me how/where you get your lenses - maybe you have documented this already and could send me a link? I would also be interested in buying a kit without the display or tracker - essentially just the lenses and goggles

Going to send you a PM.

Is there an API I can download so I can start modifying my game to support the display when it comes out?

Not just yet. There will be, though!

Palmer can you give more information about how big your kickstarter goal is going to be ?

Don't want to be cutting it close to imminent failure. Because if you fail we can't get devices or at least not via kickstarter. Which would make me sad panda

It is going to be a small goal. New developments mean that I don't have to worry about cost overruns as much.

Has Palmer said anything about the kickstarter?

It's been almost 3 weeks now......whats happening?

Okay, time to update:

Things are on hold just a little bit longer. Why? Because the Kickstarter should be 30 days long, and it should also overlap with QuakeCon and GamesCom, both huge events that Oculus is going to be at. Kickstarter is still going to launch in July, but we need to wait till the 19th or so. That way, we can ride the huge amount of publicity that those events can bring to VR. I hate delays too, but it only makes sense in the long run, and the good news is that none of these delays are due to technical issues!

Here is what I know I can say without getting in trouble (I might be able to say a little more, technically, but I have to be careful a little longer):

1) I am talking to Valve.
2) I am talking to id/Zenimax/Bethesda
3) I am talking to Epic
4) I am talking to Crytek
5) I am talking to Unity
6) I am talking to several other development companies

The extent of their relationships with Oculus varies, but I can promise at least a few partnerships. Oculus is going forward in a big way, but a way that still lets me focus on the community first, and not sell out to a large company. I am working with hardware engineers who have designed some extremely well known gaming peripherals, software developers with very extensive middleware integration and partnership experience, and a small amount of funding from people who really, really want VR to happen. I should be able to order the parts for the kits before the Kickstarter even starts because of this! The kit is going to be even cheaper than before, and after the kit is out, development of a higher res, well polished consumer head mount is going to go forward at a lightning pace.

I hate to succumb to hype, but in an attempt to keep people from being to upset about the delay: Imagine an HMD with a massive field of view and more pixels than 1080p per eye, wireless PC link, built in absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning, and native integration with some (if not all) of the major game engines, all for less than $1,000 USD. That can happen in 2013!

[brantlew]

Imagine an HMD with a massive field of view and more pixels than 1080p per eye, wireless PC link, built in absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning, and native integration with some (if not all) of the major game engines, all for less than $1,000 USD. That can happen in 2013!

Holy crap!! Gimme gimme.

[coresnake]

BRB washing my pants.

[Krisper]

Imagine an HMD with a massive field of view and more pixels than 1080p per eye, wireless PC link, built in absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning, and native integration with some (if not all) of the major game engines, all for less than $1,000 USD. That can happen in 2013!

OMG, all my dreams come true! This is awesome!

[German]

Any updates for those of us that have already sent you money? Anything exclusive/early access/etc coming our way?

[Okta]

Imagine an HMD with a massive field of view and more pixels than 1080p per eye, wireless PC link, built in absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning, and native integration with some (if not all) of the major game engines, all for less than $1,000 USD. That can happen in 2013!

OMG, all my dreams come true! This is awesome!

+1

This crazy good news Palmer. Looks like your dream hobby is turning into reality for the better of all us frutrated VR geeks.

[PalmerTech]

Any updates for those of us that have already sent you money? Anything exclusive/early access/etc coming our way?

Yep! Those people will get an even better deal than before, actually. Previously, I was going to use some of the money for just a few pre-release units to be used by some high profile forums members, made at a loss. The rest was going to be bundled into the Kickstarter to buy parts in a huge batch, and make the pre-Kickstarter orders a shipping priority. Because I can now order a lot of the parts before the Kickstarter finishes, I should be able to get those early orders out even sooner! The plan is to have $499 covering the HMD, the motion tracker, a copy of Doom 3 (Not donated, Carmack is only covering 100), and shipping. Pretty great deal, IMO.

[Endothermic]

1) I am talking to Valve.
2) I am talking to id/Zenimax/Bethesda
3) I am talking to Epic

I can't think anyone else I would rather in that list instead. I know there likely isn't but is there any significance in the ordering of that with Valve being #1 kind of glad EA or Activision were not mentioned though.

I don't spose you have some kind of cryogenic side project your working on that we could use on ourselves untill that HMD is released

And the kickstarter costing even less... just hope with the lower price and all the publicity it gets that I don't miss out on a kit.

By "built in absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning" does that mean the hand/weapon/wand positioning will be tied in directly to the HMD so that it does not need it's own connection to the computer/console?

As good as that high res, high fov, low cost HMD in 2013 sounds I really think it needs to stay modular to a degree like the Rift with the ability to atleast upgrade the screen and optics easily even if that causes it to have a more then $1000 USD price.

Is international shipping covered? Be nice if it was but I don't mind paying extra for the shipping if it helps the project out.

[Nick3DvB]

...That can happen in 2013!

The Rift might be a couple of weeks late but it sounds like the future is going to get here 10 years early - great work Palmer!


ps - I'd also appreciate info on the optics, I still have a lens lapping kit from an old DIY telescope I never built...

[Alkapwn]

1. This is like an even better, earlier Christmas! That list is insane!!
2. I can now stop hitting F5 and relax in the calm excitement of anticipation to be beyond the bleeding edge of gaming technology! The Rift may one day be something our children or grandchildren see in a museum in the future, right beside the telephone and the internet.
3. Anyone know where I can get a replacement F5 key?

Palmer, congrats on being a pioneer of the future of gaming as we know it. We are all so glad to be a part of this journey with you!

[cirk2]

This feel when something big is happening right next to you...

Definitively looking forward for 2013!

[hdieu]

Thanks for the updates Palmer, it is truly a great news

[BillRoeske]

Agreed, thanks for the update. It sounds like things are seriously going your way (with all of us along for the ride)!

Given the plan to pursue a consumer-friendly HMD post-Kickstarter, do you still see supporting the kit version with display upgrades and the like, should they become available?

At this rate, are you going to have a booth at Quake Con? If so, let me know if you need any help manning it. I'm near the area and was already considering going. It wouldn't be my first time standing at a show talking with people for hours on end, nor my first time introducing newcomers to VR.

[lnrrgb]

"We are all so glad to be a part of this journey with you!"

Ditto

Ditto

Ditto

and major thx for the update too!

[roguethunder]

Could you (or someone else here) tell me how/where you get your lenses - maybe you have documented this already and could send me a link? I would also be interested in buying a kit without the display or tracker - essentially just the lenses and goggles

Going to send you a PM.
...

;P Any chance a simular PM could be sent my way. I'm actually mostly interested in just the lenses themselves... though depending on their form and design choices... the goggles might be of interest too.

Also. Just have to say Palmer. This project is pure awesome.

[cybereality]

Great news! These are exciting times for sure.

[petersmc]

So very, very cool. I have been waiting almost 20 years for vr to go mainstream.
@palmertech - Keep your notes. If this goes as big as i suspect it will, then there will be textbook chapters writen about you and rift.

[andrewe1]

1) I am talking to Valve.
2) I am talking to id/Zenimax/Bethesda
3) I am talking to Epic
4) I am talking to Crytek
5) I am talking to Unity
6) I am talking to several other development companies

[zdam]

Imagine an HMD with a massive field of view and more pixels than 1080p per eye, wireless PC link, built in absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning, and native integration with some (if not all) of the major game engines, all for less than $1,000 USD. That can happen in 2013!

Hi Palmer,

What are these panels that will give 1080p for each eye? Up until now this thread has said that better panels will be a huge jump in price, now you are saying will be able to do 1080p for sub $1000.

Will these Rifts sold via Kickstarter be upgradeable to these new panels? ie. Will early adoptors be able to upgrade to match the specs of the well-polished consumer model due for 2013?
- will we also be able to upgrade to wireless, and also have hand/weapon/wand positioning?

I've been lurking/waiting for the last month for the arrival of the Kickstarter, and am also greatly excited for you to hear of all the partnerships/collaboration that will fast-track the state of the art in HMD's, I'm just interested in where I might stand if I go ahead with a Kickstarter purchase and then see the release of the uber Rift in 18 months time.

Best wishes,

Adam Webber

[StreetRat]

Wow, this has taken off like nothing else.
Once i read theres going to be a better version in 2013, i figured why would i want to buy the 2012 version? The instant answer was cause its part of history.
As much as i hate to admit it (cause i hate Apple), its the Apple (ipad, ipod, not the fruit) of the VR world, they exploded from almost nothing to be huge.

Did you ever think when you first started this as a backyard project, that youd be leading a revolution?
Did you ever imagine youd be able to dictate your own rules to some of the biggest game companies in the world? - That would get me all giddy and take a while to sink in

Congratulations on what youve accomplished

** PS, id still get the 2012 Rift, cause the worlds going to end a the end of the year, so i can play games on the Rift while the word ends in complete ingorance

[coresnake]

Just curious regarding the newly announced >1080p per eye spec, is that the alleged 2kp panel (retinal display) you guys were talking about before or is it the version that Palmer said would bring about 15% decrease in pixellation in comparison to the 640x480 model?

Basically will you still see pixels with the new panel?

[DFP]

Basically will you still see pixels with the new panel?

My guess is yes. If I still saw the pixels in 45 degree fov on the Sony.
1080p at 90 degree, you could still see the pixels if you looked for it.

[Endothermic]

Basically will you still see pixels with the new panel?

My guess is yes. If I still saw the pixels in 45 degree fov on the Sony.
1080p at 90 degree, you could still see the pixels if you looked for it.

It depends in which context being able to see pixels is being refered to and i'd hope that the commercial Rift you would not be able to.

1. The pixels are large enough you can individually see them so that you can see "jaggies" along diagonal lines or that circles arn't smooth circles etc like when you run your monitor at a lower resolution.

"low resolution, jaggies but no screen door effect"

2. The screen door effect where you can see the spaces between the pixels and it looks like your looking at the image through a mesh (usually seen with projectors and HMDs since optics are used to magnify the image though if you stick your face close enough to your monitor or tv you'll see the same thing but usually wont't at a regular viewing distance unlike with projectors where you still can)

"high resolution no jaggies but screen door effect"

Crappy job doing the pics but what do you expect using paint Kind of hard to do a screen door pic since the lines are smaller then the pixels but I could only draw lines the width of pixels but you get the idea none the less.

Number 1 I think for quite a while will always be visible since at a 90 FOV even double or 4x 1080P resolution you will still be able to discern the size of individual pixels due to the amount they are being magnified.

I don't see this as too big of a concern though since most of the time I don't even play games with AA on (AntiAliasing is a technique used to eliminate this in games) since my hardware is almost 4 years old and once I turn AA on things slow down quite a bit but I can happily play it with the jaggies since even though they are there at 1680x1050 the pixels are small enough that they are not too obvious (as opposed to back in the day playing at 640x480 with jaggies) even though it does look nice when playing with AA on.

Number 2 though is the one that I find the most annoying/distracting and the one that I think reduces immersion more on HMDs but it can be eliminated via optics and i'd hope that a comercial version of the Rift would employ such a thing (as long as it wasn't the elcheapo method which while elminating the screen door effect basically just makes the whole image blurry).

Since they are two different things eliminating one does not have to eliminate the other and with the screen door effect you could actually have a screen a higher enoguh resolution that you could not see jaggies even without AA (I dunno an 8k or 16k screen?) but you could still see the screen door effect as even at that resolution there are still those spaces between the pixels and as small as the pixels are the optics are still magnifying those spaces as well as though pixels.

Other people may be different but i'd much rather look at a display that is a lower resolution where I can see the size of each pixel and have jaggies but I have no screen door effect rather then one which is a super higher resolution that I effectively can not see the size of individual pixels and have no jaggies at all even with no AA running but am still able to see the screen door effect. Obviously I over exaggerated the jaggy pic and the pixels are much larger then they should be so I actually would rather the screen door effect image to that jaggy one lol but if you had a 1080P screen and a higher res screen the diff in pixel size wouldn't look as bad as it does there so would much prefer the lower res without screen door effect.

So in short i'd say in the Commercial product you will be able to see the individal pixels but you will not be able to see the screen door effect.

[coresnake]

Great explanation Endothermic, thank you.

I do know they are testing 8k displays for the Olympics in the UK, I'm sure its only a matter of time before the technology is shrunk down to goggle size! However, the bandwidth and processing power required to output that kind of visual fidelity would be mindboggling...

[DFP]

...

You are correct. I think the screen door effect is closer to what I saw in my HMZ. Something else I noticed is that there was some texture on the surface of the OLED themselves, which caused a sort of glitter effect when stuff moved, but some detail or flaw in the surface of the OLED stayed stationary. You kind of really have to look for it, but in the end I guess it depends on the person too. Honestly, I could handle most of that but the reflection on the lens in the peripheral kind of bugged me the most. I'm looking forward to the rift having it large enough that it's out of the way.

[EdZ]

The screen door effect is only produced to any significant degree by DLP projectors. Filter displays like an LCD should never exhibit it, and emissive displays like OLED should not either. There might be other effects from filters between the eye and the panel itself that could cause something similar though.

RE 'retina' displays:

Even 1920x1080 (or vice versa) per eye would be nowhere close to a visually indistinguishable display. For a 90deg FOV, and aiming for human visual acuity of 1 arc-minute (for line separation: vernier acuity would require a much higher resolution!), you need 5400 pixels. So, a 160deg horizontal x 115deg vertical (to cover the entire FOV of one eye) display would have to be 9600x6900, or a bit over 66 megapixels. And that's just for line separation: if you wanted to fool the eye totally, you'd have to take into account Vernier acuity, or Hyperacuity, which can be around 8 arc seconds. A display to beat that would be 72000x51750, or 3.65ish GIGApixels.
And you'd need to render and display this twice, once per eye. And ideally at a high framerate too. Merely transporting that much data from a PC to the display would be a major challenge!

Suffice to say, we won't be seeing anything close to a 'retina display' for wide fields of view anytime soon.

[coresnake]

3.65 GIGApixels

Great Scott!!!

[Endothermic]

The screen door effect is only produced to any significant degree by DLP projectors. Filter displays like an LCD should never exhibit it, and emissive displays like OLED should not either. There might be other effects from filters between the eye and the panel itself that could cause something similar though.

It's usaully far more noticable on projectors but it is definately viewable on any direct view display if you get close enough. It was a particular problem when PLasma TVs first came out as the spacing between the pixels was quite large on the first generation (quite more then any LCD monitor or CRT TV).

With LCD displays i've never seen any other explaination for the screen door effect besides the spacing between the pixels and you really do have to get close to a monitor/tv/laptop before you start to notice it but with a projector you have a lens magnifying the image which I guess is why it's so much more obvious and distinct with them.

While LCD HMDs arn't projecting an image like a projector they still use lenses to magnify and I have yet to use an HMD or video glasses (I hate calling sets designed to use with an iPod or only watch movies HMDs even though technically thats what they are) which did not display the screen door effect to the same degree if not worse then any projector I have seen. Especially the first pair I got which were only 320x240 resolution so you had these nice huge blocky pixels you could see and between each pixel black lines easily 1/3 to almost half the size of the pixels by far the worst screen dooring I have ever seen.

[LeeN]

It's probably separation of color components (RGB) that causes the 'screen door' effect.

The difference you see in LCD displays in regards to pixel sharpness is probably active matrix (TFT) versus passive matrix.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LCD#Passiv ... ive-matrix

Active-matrix addressed displays look "brighter" and "sharper" than passive-matrix addressed displays of the same size, and generally have quicker response times, producing much better images.

[fireslayer26]

I hate to succumb to hype, but in an attempt to keep people from being to upset about the delay: Imagine an HMD with a massive field of view and more pixels than 1080p per eye, wireless PC link, built in absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning, and native integration with some (if not all) of the major game engines, all for less than $1,000 USD. That can happen in 2013!

Great work Palmer! Super excited about this. I think this is what I've been dreaming about ever since I first saw Dactyl Nightmare almost 20 years ago. I would also like to know about the new 1080p per eye panels? Anything you can tell us?

[brantlew]

Hey Rifters, I finished implementing mouse emulation support for the Rift head tracking device so it can be used to control any FPS game.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQOCLonMErQ[/youtube]

[EdZ]

Correction: screen-door is prevalent in projection displays that either utilise a colour-wheel (DLP, LCOS) or have three seperate light-paths (DLP, LCOS, 3-chip LCD). This is because instead of having adjacent subpixels like a direct-view LCD or OLED panel, the subpixels are overlaid. Additionally, direct-view displays exhibit a lot more blooming than projection displays do due to the difference in light passing through each subpixel (almost collimated in a projector, diffuse for direct-view). This allow light to bleed between sub-pixels and fill in any gaps.

Active Matrix vs Passive Matrix

You'd be hard-pressed to find any passive matrix LCDs anymore (outside of 7-segment or dot-character displays) especially for anything intended to display video.

I have yet to use an HMD or video glasses (I hate calling sets designed to use with an iPod or only watch movies HMDs even though technically thats what they are) which did not display the screen door effect to the same degree if not worse then any projector I have seen. Especially the first pair I got which were only 320x240 resolution so you had these nice huge blocky pixels you could see and between each pixel black lines easily 1/3 to almost half the size of the pixels

With older HMDs using older panels, the inter-pixel gaps are fairly large simply because of the older process involved in making the displays. Newer high-resolution displays have to operate on a smaller process anyway, so inter-pixel gaps are reduced, and changes to LCD manufacturing techniques allow this to be further reduced (e.g. PVA, IPS and their derivatives and enhancements).

"Old, cheap and nasty" is a good description of most of the extra-small LCD panels used in HMDs, mainly due to the size limitation and HMDs often being built around excees stock rather than bespoke panels. I don't hold the highest hopes for the initial panel destined for the Rift, but it'll likely be the best panel ever used in a HMD simply by default.
Additionally, with the increased optical path length it shouldn't be too much trouble to put a light diffusion film in there somewhere if any sort of 'screen door effect' (or more likely, simple aliasing) begins to bother you.

[cybereality]

@brantlew: Looking good.

[fireslayer26]

Good job brantlew!

[optimus]

Seems like great progress all 'round!

Mr Palmer, does the 2013 model depend on the success of the Kickstarter effort/sales of the kit model? As in, will the number of kit sales determine whether production of the 2013 model will go ahead?

[Endothermic]

It's probably separation of color components (RGB) that causes the 'screen door' effect.

I don't think so, here's a photo of my monitor. You can see each RGB subpixel and around each set of them (so each individual pixel) you can clearly see the dark space producing a mesh effect, more distinctly going horizontal in this image but viewed further away it's just a perfect square around each pixel over the screen.



This is a macro photo and its not visible at all from normal viewing distance but half the distance and you can start to get a hint of the mesh and at about 1/3 normal distance you can still not discern the individual subpixels but can clearly see a distinct grid of squares (much easier if just viewing a flat colour of course)

Zoom that image out to about 50...35% and thats about how all the LCD video glasses i've used have looked, almost identical to most of the projectors i've used just slightly less prominent.

If that isn't the sapce between the pixels causing it then whatever it is is still producing the same screen door effect so you still have the two different problems with seeing pixels on an HMD of wether its the actual size of the pixels your seeing so you are seeing the individual pixels or if it is just the screen door effect your seeing which is isolating each pixel from each other so that you then notice the size of each pixel.

[FingerFlinger]

Holy crap! I go away for the weekend and come back to ridiculously good news! I just got super motivated!

[LeeN]

I don't know about you but I feel the RGB subpixels are worse than the dark spacing. And every display I've seen has the dark spacing up close, the best displays I've seen still have the dark spacing but you can't make out the RGB subpixels. That's my observation at least.

[Archy]

Too good to be true.

... it should also overlap with QuakeCon and GamesCom, both huge events that Oculus is going to be at ...

Will it be on the show floor at GamesCom or in the business area?

... absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning ...

Are you talking with Sixense/Razer about this? The Hydra is amazing and I saw Mr. Carmack talk about it a while ago.

[Endothermic]

I don't know about you but I feel the RGB subpixels are worse than the dark spacing.

That is much worse but I don't think thats really a problem with anything at present. For instance I can't see the those subpixels at all on my monitor, even as close as I can get while still being able to focus on it ( i dunno about 15cm?) I can't even see a hint of subpixels or the RGB colours just a flat single colour pixel but with a clearly obvious square grid over them.

The only time i've ever really seen subpixels on any display (without actually taking a photo of it) is on an SD CRT TV (and my old 17" CRT monitor that only went to 1024x768) which considering how large the pixels are you'd be surprised if you couldn't see them. On a 40"+ LCD or Plasma TV the ones i've looked at close enough you can't make out the individual subpixels but you can see bits of the RGB colour in each pixel especially on white area's etc but you start seeing the screen door effect long before you get near that hint of subpixels.

I think there was ibe pair of video glasses the first pair I got with the 320x240 hmm actually think it was 320x200, res screen where you could just see the subpixels inside the squares from the screen door effect. Every other pair of video glasses (all above vga resolution) i've used you havn't been able to see any subpixels (some were like the plasma and you could see hints of the RGB colour when looking at a plae light colour but still couldn't see the actual subpixel) just the annying screen door over the image.

Screen door effect just annoys the hell out of me for some reasons and I find it much more visually pleasing to look at even a lower resolution aliased image then even a higher res image with anti aliasing applied if there is a screen door effect over it. Though its also as bad when they go over the top and they use too strong a diffusion filter or something and while there is no screen door the image just looks all blurry as hell.

[WiredEarp]

Imagine an HMD with a massive field of view and more pixels than 1080p per eye, wireless PC link, built in absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning, and native integration with some (if not all) of the major game engines, all for less than $1,000 USD. That can happen in 2013!

I can *easily* imagine a HMD like that. Congratulations on your successes so far PalmerTech! That is exactly what is required to get past the current hurdle of VR - the HMD. Built in tracker support is just the icing on the cake and would mean you would be delivering a full VR hardware solution!

[PatimPatam]

Hi there, really excited about this project and all the recent news! Can't wait to get my hands on the detailed open hardware documentation, but i couldn't help starting to speculate with the information that we have at the moment..

I don't want to sound too picky but even though 90º horizontal FOV is a massive improvement over other consumer HMDs around it still sounds a bit far from what the human eye can actually perceive, which is aprox 170º: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_field (normal limits)

Palmer I suppose you have already thought about this (and maybe the 2013 model will use something like it) but, would a 2 screen model be technically possible? something similar to the following?



FOV (per eye):

Horiz_Out + Horiz_In / Vert_Up + Vert_Down (Horiz_Total / Vert_Total)

-> 45 + 45 / 55 + 55 ( 90 / 110) - Oculus Rift
-> 90 + 45 / 55 + 65 (135 / 120) - 2 Screen Version
->110 + 60 / 60 + 75 (170 / 135) - Human Eye

[NOTE 1: as i already mentioned, schematics and detailed FOV values of the Rift are mere speculation on my part!]
[NOTE 2: Vert FOV not properly calculated, rough guess - screen closer to the eye, also maybe the screens/optics could be not centered or slightly tilted so Vert_Down > Vert_Up]

I think this could be tested quite easily with 2 of the current 6'' screens, but that would make the HMD very wide.. so it would probably be better with a couple of 4'' or 5''. Now the thing I really don't know is would you be able to integrate optics that work from this close and with these wide angles?

I'm a software engineer, not an expert in optics or electronics, so if all I said doesn't make sense please forgive me

If it does make some sense.. any thoughts? Could the 2013 Oculus have a horizontal FOV > 90º using 2 screens, something closer to 140º?

[zalo]

I'm not an expert in optics either, but from what I can see, you're going to have serious focusing issues across the display (ie the left side is in focus and the edge is a blurry mess or visa versa.)

Additionally, your eyes will have a tougher time converging on the slanted images. Granted, good enough software distortion may solve that, but it could be more trouble than it's worth in FoV gains.

You might as well just move the whole thing closer to your eyeballs than mess with a funky slant.
(Resolution is a big issue in both of these scenarios by the way)

Also, welcome!

[spyro]

@PatimPatam, Zalo:

Maybe we need just one these new flexible (IGZO-)OLEDs from Sharp:



"Sharp has also unveiled a 3.4” flexible OLED. Unlike most flexible OLED panels produced to date, Sharp has managed to create a flexible OLED panel with extremely high resolution. With its 540x960 pixels it has the same high 326 ppi density as the 13.5 inch panel – or similar to Apple’s iPhone 4S."
(http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?su ... 1338806425):

+ With 326 ppi, you would get 1080p already at 5.89"
+ Very high contrast
+ Fast switching
+ low power consumption
+ can be bent into a curve (or even a spherical cut) to be your field of vision (of course you will still need optics to focus this near)

Samsung also has plans to sell flexible OLED displays "in 2012":



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsIjfy8g ... r_embedded

EDIT: You could use shutter technology combined with this. So the whole curved screen would show only the picture for one eye at any given time while the other eye is shaded of by an one-pixel-LCD (with an attached lense so you can focus this near). OLEDs can be updated with very high frequency, say 240 Hz or even more so there should be no flickering at all. The ambient light is obscured and we are very close to the eyes, so brightness should be no problem either.


spyro

[PatimPatam]

@spyro

Yes I heard about these, it sure looks like a perfect match for VR down the line! However maybe the 2 flat screen could be an option for the near future? (and you could probably get almost double the resolution than with a single display on top of more FOV)

[zalo]

While that tv is really cool, I think you guys might be underestimating the difficulty of the optics. Chances are that you'd need a custom lens with the proper curvature to match the screen. A bent fresnel lens would just ruin the resolution gains of the screen itself. Also, lenses aren't cheap when they are done properly. After some minimal research, I've discovered that fire polished aspheric (semi distortion corrected) custom lenses run for about £350 for a test. Double that if you want two. And good luck getting them to get it to focus differently horizontally and vertically.

I don't see why you can't just bring the whole screen assembly closer to your eyes if you have the resolution to spare. That way you could use semi-normal lenses.

[FingerFlinger]

Well, if we are able to get a physical screen to actually fill up the FOV, then couldn't specialized contacts take care of the focusing issue? This way the optics will not cause any complex distortion, although the perspective would still be a bit wonky with the screen so close.

[rajveer]

JC tweeted:

"Had a great visit with Abrash and crew at Valve yesterday to talk VR/AR -- nice to meet some people I only knew from twitter!"

Interesting

[PatimPatam]

I don't see why you can't just bring the whole screen assembly closer to your eyes if you have the resolution to spare. That way you could use semi-normal lenses.

Well simple geometry, no matter how close you bring it to the eyes, if its only one screen and it's perpendicular to the vision "line" you will never be able to have a 90º Horiz_Out FOV, unless the screen size is infinite

Edit: sorry for being a smartass

[zalo]

Oops, you're right.

I see now how we could hit a wall at this rate.
I also see now that (curved screen or not) curved lenses are unavoidable.

They are ultimately what covers the eye, and they are capable of making regular old flat displays curved.

Contact lenses are interesting, but it's hard to correct for their distortion without tracking the eye (also, when you take the HMD off, it's not going to be fun).

[Endothermic]

then couldn't specialized contacts take care of the focusing issue?

I don't know about other people but I wouldn't want to haveto wear contacts to use an HMD no matter how good it was.

Though i'd gladly have surgery to have a hole stuck in the back of my head so I could jack into the matrix.... I just wouldn't want to put lil lenses on my eyes guess i'm just weird....

[lnrrgb]

Open your mind....you already have that jack - there is no spoon!

[German]

I just wouldn't want to put lil lenses on my eyes guess i'm just weird....

I physically can't wear contacts. I tried them for three weeks at up to 8 hours a day and my eyes just wouldn't get used to them. Thankfully, I have a very weak prescription so I'll be able to use the Oculus Rift without glasses just fine.

[Vaughanabe13]

then couldn't specialized contacts take care of the focusing issue?

I don't know about other people but I wouldn't want to haveto wear contacts to use an HMD no matter how good it was.

Though i'd gladly have surgery to have a hole stuck in the back of my head so I could jack into the matrix.... I just wouldn't want to put lil lenses on my eyes guess i'm just weird....

Joke's on you - you're actually in the matrix already and your real head already has a hole.

[FingerFlinger]

I've never worn contacts, but I'd be willing to try if it provided the best experience!

@Zalo, what kind of distortion are you talking about with respect to contact lenses? My thought was that using contacts would remove most of that problem since the center of the lens is always centered on the user's eye. (Unless I am totally wrong about how contact lenses work; I don't wear them.) If this is the case, then one would only need to correct for perspective and the shape of the screen, curved or spherical or whatever.

[zalo]

Hah, I don't wear them either, but it's my understanding that they move with your eyes so the center of your eyeball is always at the focus sweet spot.

The eyes aren't perfectly round either. Try closing your eyes and looking around with your fingers on your eyelids. You can feel your eyes' shapes changing.

It could be another example of "more trouble than it's worth".

[EdZ]

If the issue with wide non-curved displays is that the eye has to refocus between the centre and the edge, then contact lenses would not help. The correction factor would be constant across the display, whereas you would need the correction to vary as your gaze moved over the disay. This could be solved by fixed custom lenses (expensive), curved displays (also expensive, and possibly also needing custom optics anyway due to a non-flat focal plane), or by moving the display far enough from the eye (i.e. a larger panel) so that the diference in focal distance is small enough that eye strain is reduced to acceptable levels (results in a large and bulky display).

Custom optics are really the solution, but unless you're ordering huge production runs the cost is very high. If the RIFT is a huge success, the RIFT successor (or the successor's successor) may be have enough clout to order custom optical elements along with custom controller circuitry for exotic displays. But the trade-off would be an increase in production cost.
As always; you can have cheap, comfortable or high-quality, but only two at once.

Then again, none of us have even seen the high-FOV RIFT variant. It may be that the eye strain issues are minimal for most users and that custom lenses are unnecessary.

[WiredEarp]

I actually raised this limitation of flat screens in a thread called 'Displaying a FULL FOV impossible with 'flat' optics?', but we never got far in discussing it. I personally dont think any single flat screen will be feasible for full immersion. Probably a tridef type setup (3 screens) with a custom optic that basically acted to focus all 3 lenses (something like pisight but more of a single progressive 'dream' lens) will be the most likely ultra high FOV candidate in the near future. I think with the right ?genius? lens designer something like that could work. Anyone see the rear view mirror recently done by some guy that made it have high FOV but low distortion, by basically breaking the mirror down into pixels and designing it so each pixel reflected slightly differently?

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2012/ ... lind-spot/

I think once big companies realise that VR is going to be a hit and worth lots of money, top level optic designers will be involved, and then we will finally start to get the true Retina displays. Ones where we cannot determine just by looking around that we are in a VR.

One day, we may need to develop tests to easily determine if we are in a simulation or reality. Inception anyone?

[PatimPatam]

Thanks a lot for the explanation EdZ, it does make sense. I understand that having 2 displays would make the cost go up, but if the fancy optics that you mention are not really necessary then maybe it could still be within an acceptable range.

I think it would be interesting to know what is Palmer's point of view in all this.

[Endothermic]

I think once big companies realise that VR is going to be a hit and worth lots of money, top level optic designers will be involved, and then we will finally start to get the true Retina displays

Maybe its just optimistic or bias but I think the RIFT could be the begining of the 6th wave, most people think it will be about efficiency but I can really see it being VR. If it is then this will certainly happen.

[EdZ]

The expense of custom optics is not so much the design of the optics, but the manufacture. Precision grinding of glass to anythjng other than a basic spherical or parabolic surface doesn't scale too well; either you make a few by hand at a high cost, or a customised production line is needed and economics of scale kick in only with production runs of several hundred thousand.

Probably a tridef type setup (3 screens) with a custom optic that basically acted to focus all 3 lenses (something like pisight but more of a single progressive 'dream' lens) will be the most likely ultra high FOV candidate in the near future. I think with the right ?genius? lens designer something like that could work

The Sensics PiSight uses an array of 8 displays per eye along with a compound lens array to create a large FOV. However, the sublenses emselves appear to be fairly basic convex lenses. It may be cheaper to cut up and align small mass-produced lenses than to produce a single custom lens.

How about this: three displays per eye, side-by-side in portrait orientation. Each eye has a 3 sub-lens array of three basic lenses with the edges ground off to align them correctly. It would minimise side-to-side variation in focal distance, at the expense of up-and-down variation (less glancing is done in this axis, and it would be no worse than a single screen). The major issues above the custom lens arrays would be the cost of multiple driver boards, the requirement that the displays be gen-locked to stay in sync, and the alignment of the sub-lenses and displays in the housing.

[WiredEarp]

economics of scale kick in only with production runs of several hundred thousand.

Thats exactly what i'm talking about. When those economics of scale kick in, things like a single integrated lens to do what you are talking about will become possible, and will eliminate other issues, such as the sublens alignment you mentioned.

[sambeckett]

What do you guys think of Ouya? http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouy ... me-console

3 million in less then 2 days on kickstarter. Great price point, great value.

If Rift can get as much publicity and show great value at a low price point who knows what could happen! I am hoping you get the same success!

Overnight Microsoft and Sony woke up with a new console competitor, Google with android. The world is changing, and maybe HMD will finally become main stream because of Oculus!! Lets dream.

[EdZ]

Definitely. If you can guarantee you're going to be ordering super-vast quantities of the same thing, the only barrier to entry is the few-hundred-thousand/million-or-so up-front cost to start up production.

This is for glass lenses. A compromise option could be plastic lenses, but they have a few disadvantages: Less durable, susceptible to heat warping (both temporary and permanent) and cold embrittlement, inferior optical qualities, and poor quality control. By his I mean that injection moulding, the cheapest method of production, would have nigh-unacceptable variances between batches, or even items in a batch, necessitating 100% testing and either a very poor pass:reject ratio or post-mould finishing.

The current single COTS lens design the RIFT is using really is the dramatically cheapest route until a dramatic increase in production volume, or a change in lens production techniques.

[defactoman]

Gamespy article (That actually names Palmer) about the kickstarter campaign for the "Rift". http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/122/1225382p1.html

[cybereality]

Gamespy article (That actually names Palmer) about the kickstarter campaign for the "Rift". http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/122/1225382p1.html

Really happy to read all the positive comments. The public is genuinely stoked about this project.

[Endothermic]

I just don't get all the negative posts but I guess thats the problem with the internet since ppl just splurt out garbage when they don't even know what they are saying.

Comparing RIFT to the Google Glasses... they really have no idea what the Google Glasses actually do and or the RIFT.

"3D is also gimmicky bullshit and a waste of money" ok he obviously dislikes 3D for some reason and thinks the RIFT is just another 3D display and has no idea about immersion or what VR really is.

"Carmack has no shame. 500 dollars for a "virtual reality" thing that will launch with a new version of the not so great game that was Doom 3. Yes i will most definitely not be buying it.

Instead of making games he pulls this kind of crap. I just can't stand the guy anymore."

Okay he obviously can't read or understand that its not Carmack making or selling the RIFT your just going to happen to get DOOM 3 with it (which I actually thought was a great game anyone once you got hte flashlight mod :s) which Carmack is writing to make proper use of the device.

Seriously you should need to get a licence or something to post on the internet so that you have to learn to be able to read and understand what your reading and actually know something about what your going to say before your allowed to say anything

It's negative crap like these morons that could really derail something like the RIFT if enoguh ppl see it and spread it since the human race has a tendancy to prefer the negative over the positive (seriously how often do you see something good on the news as opposed to bad ) so before you know it this kind of incorrect uninformed nonsence being said spreads and its all anyone takes notice of ignoring anything good said (since anything good about it is obviously just propaganda from the ppl making it to try and get you to buy it right!).

Thankyfully though the RIFT got a fair bit of media coverage in before these idiots had a chance to say crap like that so I don't think it will be able to tarnish it in that way.

[coresnake]

Yeah I tried to get some people on some other forums interested in it and the average reply was 'kickstarter? enjoy paying for something not invented yet', 'doom3.. yeh what a great deal', and other such moronic crap. Even though among them were people who shelled out $800 for the HMZ-T1, a vastly inferior product.

Anyway, I just hope this Ouya thing doesn't steal all of Palmer's thunder.

[android78]

More great press here:
http://www.ausgamers.com/features/read/3226063
Seems that the standard response when people try the Rift on is "WOW". I wonder if this will beat the more then $2m in a day that OUYA did (and still climbing).

[QuasiSteve]

I doubt the OUYA would steal the Rift's thunder at the game conventions given that they're two rather disparate technologies. Of course if you could use the Rift with the OUYA (and there's no reason it couldn't as long as the latter can output the desired split frame+distortion), that would be nice.

It won't steal thunder at KickStarter because although OUYA is currently soaring ($3.9M, average of ~$500/minute and probably back up to $1200/minute when more of the U.S. is awake), it has been wisely limited by its Creators at about $5.3M through the use of limited pledge levels - after that it's just the $10 and $25 tiers.

I say wisely because otherwise they might have had to pull something like the Pebble project did - get KickStarter to intervene and artificially place limits on rewards after they had already been pledged on - to stem off purported supply/manufacturing/stocking/shipping issues.

Actually checked in to see comments on the recent media buzz - still lots of "Carmack's HMD" floating around and referring to the device as the "Oculus". Ahh, the media

[German]

it has been wisely limited by its Creators at about $5.3M through the use of limited pledge levels

Untrue, they have been steadily raising the pledge levels as the pledges get near the current max. They originally started with 5000 units and are now up to 80000.

[lnrrgb]

"Seriously you should need to get a licence or something to post on the internet so that you have to learn to be able to read and understand what your reading and actually know something about what your going to say before your allowed to say anything"


I suggest we encrypt the whole forum - let me decide who I want to read - let us decide who gets read by perhaps unencrypting those who are real, contributing, and getting read by more than a few of us. Seems like it would end spam eventually, if it caught on. Encrypt it all! Moderators wouldn't have to constantly sweep away BS, nor would they "accidentally" wipe away posts that someone spent time thoughtfully thinking about how to wittily make a point. Encrypt it all, and save us all time, and heartache. I got this idea from Nolan Bushnell. I think he is on to something. Anyone else?

[Vaughanabe13]

"Seriously you should need to get a licence or something to post on the internet so that you have to learn to be able to read and understand what your reading and actually know something about what your going to say before your allowed to say anything"

I find this ironic, considering the sentence is riddled with grammar mistakes. So if you remove that from the list of criteria, your point is basically "I don't like when people disagree with me". Preventing them from posting on the internet is not going to change their opinions.

[brantlew]

More great press here:
http://www.ausgamers.com/features/read/3226063
Seems that the standard response when people try the Rift on is "WOW".

Yeah, we've all heard Carmack talk a lot about this but not as much about the experience from the few dozen people who have tried it for the first time. I think it's worth quoting.

It's hard to convey in words the sensation of Carmack's foray into the world of HMD gaming. Ultimately, as rudimentary as his prototype was, it still worked quite well, and having no other peripheral light sensations piercing the casing helped me transport into the testbed world of Doom III.

Initially it does look quite low-res, but as John points out, this is something that will likely change before any such device with his stamp on it even makes it to market. What was most impressive though was the smooth frame-rate and responsiveness to head movement.

I started out using my thumb on the controller to move the camera, but once I realised my head could do the majority of that, it became far more natural to just move in the game-world as I would in real-life. This sensation was furthered when I started to physically react to fireballs being hurled at me from Imps. I began crouching and stiffeing up and I'm not afraid to admit my heart-rate went up as well.

A few minutes into my eyes-in session and I was moving about the game-space like a pro, peeking in and around corners and eating up the virtual 3D world around me as if I were actually there. Obviously the testbed was not nearly as challenging as the actual Doom III game, but it gave great insight into how this technology, specifically for shooters, can work. And again, the only major issue I had was in the overall resolution. It's also important to point out, for all the FPS keyboard and mouse warriors out there, twitch play with head movement coupled with controller in-hand was just as precise and far more engaging. If this technology goes mass market, honestly it's the only way I'd ever want to play a first-person shooter.

I can't wait to try it out at QuakeCon. Anyone else planning on going?

[mysticeti]

I can remember physically trying to duck the fireballs thrown by imps in Doom I/II and that was pretty freakin' low res.

Despite the huge increases in 3D graphics over the years I've never, ever felt the need to duck since then.

I fully expect to crap my drawers when I'm immersed in a world rendered through the Oculus Rift. At least for the first few games.

[QuasiSteve]

Untrue, they have been steadily raising the pledge levels as the pledges get near the current max. They originally started with 5000 units and are now up to 80000.

Hah - yeah, I noticed they bumped things up.. sneaky buggers. So much for the immutability of pledge levels once a pledge has been placed
So, correction: $8,832,500 .. until they bump things up again.

[android78]

@Endothermic - regarding the negative comments.
I'm actually quite surprised at how overwhelmingly positive the reaction to this has been. I don't think I've see a single 'bad' review from those who have tried it out, and there seem to be at least as many positive comments on the articles I've read, compared to the negatives. This compares to what seemed to be about 90% negative responses to any article that mentioned 3D (mostly referring to TVs or movies) a couple of years ago.
It's too early to say for certain, but I can see the Rift being a big hit in kickstarter, just based on Carmacks word alone... With the positive press, I think that Palmer should brace for more orders then he expects.
We've all been waiting far too long for a decent VR experience. I'm not the only one who grew up in the 80's when the promise seemed that we would all be spending hours a day in full body VR suits by the year 2000, only to be left a couple of steps ahead of where we were in the 80's and the year is 2012!

[Endothermic]

I find this ironic, considering the sentence is riddled with grammar mistakes. So if you remove that from the list of criteria, your point is basically "I don't like when people disagree with me". Preventing them from posting on the internet is not going to change their opinions.

No thats nothing to do with my point. I never said anything about grammar all I talked about was knowing what it is your talking about before you say something, which has nothing to do with disagreeing with me.

One person was talking about "Google Glasses, its a start". What do Google Glasses have to do with the RIFT? They are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. Some idiot might read that and think the RIFT is just another "Google Glasses" and they've seen the Google Glasses and have no interest or use for that kind of thing so think the RIFT is another useless thing they'll have no interest in and proceed to tell their friends that and so on and so on.

The other guy saying he was an ID fan but wont buy their products again (hello RIFT isn't an ID product and even said so in the article) and that "3D is also gimmicky bullshit and a waste of money". He obviously didn't read all the article or was just unable to take in from it that the RIFT isn't a 3D display (as in thats it's main selling point, what it primarily is). Sure it displays 3D but from that comment if you just read that and not the article you would think the RIFT is just a 3D TV you stick on your head and nothing more (like the sony) when that's not at all what the RIFT is, you could have it without 3D and it would still be pretty much the same thing because 3D isn't one of the major points about it.

Other people might read stuff like that and just get the idea that like with the Google Glasses post that the RIFT is nothing more then another Sony 3D head display and well they don't like 3D and/or that Sony HMD and think its a waste of money just like him and again then proceed to tell everyone they know how RIFT is just a stupid waste of money 3D head display thats good for nothing else other then 3D.

Nothing in there has anything to do with disagreeing with me or poor grammar it is just incorrect statements made about the device based on them either not reading the whole article or just not being able to understand from it what the RIFT actually is and then bothering to find out the facts about it before posting.

They splurt out this incorrect stuff that other people may look at the article and get this idea about what it is thats completely different from what it actually is and since they don't have an interest in what they think it is they never bother to learn about the product and proceeed to spread these incorrect statements which probably get chinese whisper sydrome added to them in the end as well.

Take for example the flase perception that sometime in the future we'll have faster then light no latency internet because of Quantum Entanglement. QE can only have at best the same latency as light in a vacuum but some idiot reading about QE saw the words "instant" and "transfer" mention so then either not reading the whole thing or after reading it and not being able to understand it came to the assume that QE can instantly transfer information from one place to another and proceeded to say that when ppl talked about latency or internet speeds and now the majority of your average joe that has head of QE thinks it will some enable instant communication from one place to another when it can not.

If the people that first start spurting around that QE will enable instant FTL communication actually knew what they were talking about before they said it or checked their assumptions first then the majority of people wouldn't have this completely incorrect idea about QE and that it can enable faster then light data speeds when it can not.

That's what my point was.

[German]

QE can only have at best the same latency as light in a vacuum

I think they know more than you do...

Experimental results have demonstrated that effects due to entanglement travel at least thousands of times faster than the speed of light,[23][24] and that when measurements of the entangled particles are made in moving, relativistic reference frames in which each respective measurement occurs before the other, the measurement results remain correlated.[25][26]

[Endothermic]

I think they know more than you do...

Perhaps you need to read more on QE.

Information/Data is not sent faster then light with QE. A Quantum State is instantly transfered from one particle to the other. A Quantum State however is not usefull information or data, you can not do anything with it unless you know about what the people that were sending it did (which you have to call, email or pigeon that information).

Once they have that information they can then get information out of the entangled particle but without that additional information that needs to be sent at light speed they can not do anything with the information in the entangled particle.

http://www.aip.org/png/html/teleport.htm
"Also, quantum teleportation does not allow for faster-than-light communication."

http://news.discovery.com/tech/teleport ... anics.html
"Entangled information arrives faster than the speed of light, but to read it scientists would need a key to decode the information, which would arrive using traditional communication at slower-than-light speeds."

http://www.fisica.net/teletransporte/ex ... charya.pdf
"Also quantum teleportation does not allow for faster than light communication, although the teleported particle attains the polarization value instantly."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/19 ... 062803.htm
"This does not mean that faster-than-light information transfer has occurred."

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -with-ions
"Conventional (nonquantum) communication channels relay information"

or if you prefer your Wikipedia friend

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_teleportation
"however it does not immediately transmit classical information, and therefore cannot be used for communication at superluminal (faster than light) speed."

[Alkapwn]

"Seriously you should need to get a licence or something to post on the internet so that you have to learn to be able to read and understand what your reading and actually know something about what your going to say before your allowed to say anything"

I find this ironic, considering the sentence is riddled with grammar mistakes. So if you remove that from the list of criteria, your point is basically "I don't like when people disagree with me". Preventing them from posting on the internet is not going to change their opinions.

I find it funny that you literally made your post an example of exactly what he was talking about. Also that people get so worked up on forums. Sometimes I feel like I'm reading Xbox Live transcripts.

[zalo]

I like how he did exactly what you described in the previous post, but we're seriously getting off topic... (GOSHDARNIT NINJA)

But while we're here: http://hypothes.is/
This aims to solve precisely the problem of garbage comments, while being a little more subtle and fair than an Internet Licensing test.

On topic: I'm also really excited that so many people seem to be interested in VR.
Maybe industries thought it had a bad nerd stigma, and inadvertently starved the public of a product that it would really like!...

Or maybe it was all the lawsuits they were getting.
Maybe a licensing test is more appropriate for VR than it is for the Internet.

[TheRealistWord]

I'm a bit late to the party - I saw the great news the day Palmer posted it, but haven't gotten around to adding my two cents yet... until now

I think it's absolutely incredible news that these top developers are showing interest in the Rift, and when the high dogs take interest in something, usually a great chunk of the market will follow. The creators of Skyrim - one of the biggest and most anticipated games of 2011! That definitely speaks for something. And of course, Valve and the rest of the list. Hopefully their interest in the Rift isn't just general curiousity, but instead plans of integrating it into future titles. I honestly think this is what's needed to get the ball rolling and people more focused on the most critical immersion factors in an HMD - FOV, head tracking, and latency. The resolution is pretty low, but like Carmack was saying, it's just a matter of time before newer panels are released with a higher PPI. It's pretty much a given (how many times a month do we hear about all these different companies working on super high resolution screens?).

About a possible successor to the Rift in 2013... it sounds incredible, but I really hope that that particular statement doesn't veer people away from supporting and purchasing the Rift being released here shortly, adopting the mindset, "Why would I buy this one, when I know that there's a high chance a better version will be out next year sometime?" I'm sure a lot of companies might gauge the consumer market's interest in low priced HMD's depending on how well this first version of the Rift sells, so let's hope people don't pass this one up just because they're expecting a better version to be released next year. And even with the big names involved, I'm sure the money made from this first initial batch is pretty crucial to the future of the Rift overall. Well, my thoughts anyway, maybe you're almost settled to the point where you'd still be financially comfortable if this first set of Rifts didn't take off as planned. I suppose only you know, Palmer

Either way, I'm too anxious not to fund the kickstarter when it sets off later this month, ME WANT ME RIFT.

[Alkapwn]

My assumption with all the big name developers is not only that they're looking to the future, but to all their current games as well. From the looks of the work that cybereality and Emerson have been pumping out, making the Rift native on all their current and past games would be a huge marketing plus for them. Anyone that doesn't own their games and now has a Rift, has a huge incentive to go out and buy those games that have now been made "Rift Ready" (patent pending).

[cybereality]

Well if you want to avoid idiots on the internet you could find a small, underground forum where only a bunch of geeks that know what they are talking about hang out. Wait...

[Endothermic]

Yes that was my fault and then continued to derail it with the QE stuff sorry.

Maybe industries thought it had a bad nerd stigma, and inadvertently starved the public of a product that it would really like!...

I think in the early days it would of just been to expensive to have a proper consumer VR HMD and after that there was just no interest since VR came out and peeked interest but then not releasing any proper consumer product it just died off. You then had attampts over the years but they all fell short and never gave a proper experience. iGlasses tried t ofix it by using somewhat affordable at the time high res 640x480 screens etc but the FOV was still narrow and you wern't properly enclosed and the head tracking wasn't great and consumer wise software never got behind it so they were all aim with your head reather then look with your head aim with the mouse which most ppl I know find it really annoying and i think thats why it didn't really kick off.

I remember the first time I used one in an arcade, can't remember the came it was just a rail shooter so you stood in the thing but your guy walked around by himself all you did was look around and point the crosshair at things to shoot. The graphics were just low poly shaded and resolution was terrible (had to be less then 320x240 but hey the machines were only running a 286 so you couldn't do much more) and you could see the subpixels however there was no clear mesh effect over the image, the FOV wasn't great but still better then consumer HMDs since and you were fully enclosed with whever they used so you didn't just see the sharp edge of the screen so even though it wasn't a HUGE FOV you still felt like you were really there looking at something not just looking at a small screen. It was heavy, the tracking was slow but even with that, the low res, seeing subpixels, lower FOV etc it was fantastic. I was sure in the coming decade things would of just gotten WOW and been the same in the home.

But alas as the years went by and HMDs did come out such as VFX-1, iGlasses, VFX-3D, Phullips Scuba, eMagin basically every single one of them were..... crap.... none of them you had that feeling that you were actually there looking at it they were all just screen in an empty black room syndrome, not taking into account how good the tracking was it was still expensive to get it with it, resolution got better but that didn't really do much while keeping the low FOV and basically nothing except the VFX really did a job of immersing you in the vision of what FOV there was.

Perhaps if they made the games so you didn't aim with your head things may of taken off better and they did a good job marketing the eMagin but it still fell flat with having to head aim with every game and i think even with acurate low latency tracking that would of still killed off the whole VR thing. Basically any HMD I used I disabled the head tracking and just used it to try and feel like your really there looking at things (which again usually failed because of the FOV) which is sad since the head tracking is a big element of VR and really adds to your perception of immersion. Because of the whole head aim thing I never actually bought a proper HMD ever since everyone I tried without using tracking was just so disappointing with the immersion factor and that was the only reason I wanted one fo immersion.

I don't know if many other people felt the same way but if they did then its more a matter of the software industry was the reason consumer HMDs never really took off and got anywhere as I think if they had proper head tracking rather then just mouse emulation for head aiming (I know there were a couple of games that did but 2/100000 is nothing ) in the games then I think VR would of probably taken off years ago regardless of low resolution and FOV and hopefull the RIFT will fix that problem (but again only if people actually write the games to be able to do it instead of just mouse emulation)

Anyway I can't believe how much I just ranting on about so I think i'll stop there about that.

I'd like to know whats going to happen with the kickstarter.... all the talk was about around 100 kits and now will be purchasing the parts before the kickstarter because of the funding gotten, so having never used kickstarter before and reading aboutthe pledge limits with OUYA what happens if there's a huge flux and 100's or 1000's of ppl that want a RIFT kit? Have to get in first and all the rest can not pledge for a kit or get told they'll be waiting longer for it etc?

[cybereality]

Well I think HMDs are basically pointless without head-tracking. You can have a better experience, for cheaper, with a nice big-screen 3D TV or projector. Only when you are doing head-tracking, and virtual reality type simulations do HMDs really have a purpose.

Regarding Kickstarter: I believe Palmer said there will be 500 units available. Maybe now that things are blowing up he will try to produce more. But I honestly doubt it could be much more considering all the manual labor involved in putting these kits together. So basically the first 500 people sitting there reading this forum like hawks will win.

[WiredEarp]

IMHO, the real reason VR hasn't taken off is that virtually all consumer HMD's have been low FOV. This leads to people that buy them, try them, then go 'meh' as they just are not what they were expecting (immersion).

You look at stuff like Vuzix, even with head tracker, the FOV is too crap for anything. If they had taken their 640x480 glasses and made them 90 degree FOV, they may well have gotten much further ahead in the consumer HMD space.

I do agree that head tracking is essential, but even if a product had come out at a reasonable price in the past, with decent FOV, hobbyists would have used it to mount their own trackers and develop VR solutions. Unfortunately, the lack of high FOV HMD's have been the main barrier holding things back for quite a while.

[Chriky]

I think the reason no-one made a high FOV HMD yet is that it's impossible to make them look good in adverts. It seems like manufacturers are more concerned about what it looks like from the outside not what it looks like from the inside. The Vuzix ones are the perfect example of something that looks good when someone else is using it, but not when you are.

Some of the reactions to the first Verge video were along the lines of "LOL nice duct tape idiots". It's basically like looking at the TARDIS and saying "LOL nice police box". You're like, "No really, it's much better on the inside..."

But anyone at this point it's working in our favour because, for me at least, I'm mainly concerned about getting one myself. The 2nd generation will be the make or break where we have to come up with ways to make it look amazing for people who haven't experienced it.

[PatimPatam]

I think the reason no-one made a high FOV HMD yet is that it's impossible to make them look good in adverts. It seems like manufacturers are more concerned about what it looks like from the outside not what it looks like from the inside.

The 2nd generation will be the make or break where we have to come up with ways to make it look amazing for people who haven't experienced it.

I don't want to become a pain in the neck, but I think that with the 2-screen alternative the HMD could look pretty cool from the outside as well (see schematics a few pages back)

[notmuchpastnothing]

I have been lurking here longer than I care to admit. And similar, I'm sure, to many reading this thread, my bank statement has been inaccurate for the last two months showing me at least $500 richer than I actually am. A few questions, or rather a few concepts I’d like bounced off folks who understand the technology better than I do, has finally compelled me out of my lurk. Although I have never seen it expressly stated, from what I can tell the Rift will have 100% binocular overlap. Won't that give us something we can trade for even more of that ohh so luscious field of view? So lets say we slap on some 3M Press-on Fresnel Prisms, and assuming the software followed along, couldn't we, for example, square that FOV to 110 degree horizontal by 110 vertical. Although I haven't done the the trig involved, (maybe someone with more math aptitude or less laziness can chime in here) I think that should put us around 70 degree overlap. Heck, assuming the prisms can keep up (40 diopter being the highest I think 3M makes), couldn't we reach the 120 degree horizontal mark with around 60 degree overlap?

Ok, sticking with the 110x110 field of view square theme for simplicity, while each eye would, of course, still be receiving 640x800 resolution, your mind would converge the two images into a 800x800 "picture". So assuming this is possible, and I'm not missing something stupid, which I quite possibly am, what would we be giving up by decreasing the binocular overlap? Well we'd lose at least a little Stereopsis, but how much? It seems high-end, high-dollar HMDs frequently trade some overlap for more FOV. An oldie but goodie example would be the Virtual Research Flight Helmet. Now I'm not sure which it is because I've seen conflicting specs on the interwebs and I think many don't (including possibly me) quite understand the concept; but it seems to either have 120 degree horizontal FOV by default (with 100 degree horizontal FOV if made to have 100% overlap) or 100 degree horizontal FOV by default (with 80 degree horizontal FOV if made to have 100% overlap). So how do you make it have 100% overlap? Well Virtual Research offered as a separate optional accessory 3M Press-on Fresnel Prisms. You would slap those on to go the exact opposite direction of what I'm suggesting with the Rift. One gets the feeling this accessory was offered, not to achieve absolute maximum Stereopsis, but in case you wanted to use it monoscopically, where 100% overlap is a must, and field of view is probably less important. Other examples include nVision Datavisor 80 which has 50% or 60 degrees of overlap and Sensics xSight which has 53 degrees of overlap, just to name a few I've come across. I've seen 40 degrees binocular overlap stated a couple of times as a good minimum for decent Stereopsis. I've also seen 60 degrees stated. I don't have a drop of real world experience so this has thus far been purely academic. I do get the feeling that at higher overlaps you hit the law of diminishing returns as far as Stereoscopic effects go. Our vision naturally has about 200 degree field of view with 120 degrees of overlap so we don't have 100% ourselves.

Of course the elephant in the room is the software. It is doubtful if Doom 3 BFG will include an out of the box slider to adjust overlap. Heck, it's already plenty cool it supports the unmodified Rift. To make it work in software one would need to adjust the angle of the camera representing each eye. It seems that optical distortion correction would not need to be reworked but simply moved based on the level of overlap, and I'm not even sure this would be necessary. You might be able to inject the necessary changes using a driver by say rendering a higher horizontal resolution than actually needed for one eye and just cutting a bit off of one side avoiding the need to change any viewing angles, but this is just a guess, as I know little about the rendering pipeline. These seem easy enough, but there are undoubtedly complexities that I'm missing and may be approaching having my cake and eating it too. I am, after all, talking about adding support for some modification when support for the unchanged thing is already limited. But the only hardware modification necessarily, if I’m understanding this correctly, is the application of the prisms and these are designed to be removable and able to be reapplied. It is hard to imagine that being able to go on forever, but I can imagine applying them to a thin transparent plastic sheet which could be removed and reapplied quickly so there should be nothing hardware wise that would make this permanent and render you unable to use the Rift as originally intended. Maybe some of us who are creating software projects with the Rift could write stuff that includes native changeable overlap with higher field of views as an option.

There are few other tidbits I can see as negatives such as the prisms may create some effects themselves, namely faint vertical lines which may become more apparent as diopter increases. (Anyone know if that is accurate? I've never seen one in person.) Another is you may want to get a higher diopter than your desired overlap will imply because if the Rift has a 5.6" screen (I've also seen it represented a 6") that gives you a 4.48" edge. And if the average space between human eyes are 65mm or 2.56" then your already a little off (~0.16" for each eye, yeah for math I can do!) as far as converging two screens at 100% overlap forcing you to be a small bit cross-eyed. (Which, I think, will be less of a problem, and maybe even a good thing, while focusing on something near to you in the virtual world?) There are surely more negatives I'm not considering.

It's a bit of armature hour with me so I'm hoping for corrections or thoughts or even total shoot-downs if I'm barking up an unrealistic tree.

Oh yeah... and many thanks to Palmer and John C!

[spyro]

so let's hope people don't pass this one up just because they're expecting a better version to be released next year.

This should not be the case if there is a bold statement that the RIFT v1 will be upgradeable with the hires displays of the second version (which is in fact the only real critical point).

spyro

[Endothermic]

This should not be the case if there is a bold statement that the RIFT v1 will be upgradeable with the hires displays of the second version (which is in fact the only real critical point).

Or since Palmer will still be doing it and isn't just selling it to whatever company to develope it, perhaps those who purchased the RIFT v1 kit could be offered a discount on the RIFT v2 commerical product or a trade-in etc?

[Vaughanabe13]

"Seriously you should need to get a licence or something to post on the internet so that you have to learn to be able to read and understand what your reading and actually know something about what your going to say before your allowed to say anything"

I find this ironic, considering the sentence is riddled with grammar mistakes. So if you remove that from the list of criteria, your point is basically "I don't like when people disagree with me". Preventing them from posting on the internet is not going to change their opinions.

I find it funny that you literally made your post an example of exactly what he was talking about. Also that people get so worked up on forums. Sometimes I feel like I'm reading Xbox Live transcripts.

You are mistaken. His point was about people who make blind statements about things in which they know nothing about. He just posted an essay talking about how people are comparing rift to google glass. Therefore what I said is not "ironic" because I didn't spout incorrect information or misread his point. What it reduces to is that he is getting upset over the GP's general lack of understanding, which occurs everywhere on the internet, all the time, over every subject. Just go to youtube comments and you will see some of the worst examples of ignorance. And I was simply suggesting that they have the right to post their ignorance and you have the right not to read it. Claiming that they should not be allowed to post on the internet unless they're at an arbitrary level of knowledge is just asinine. The solution to all of your problems is to not get so upset over people posting garbage on the internet. It doesn't affect you, because you already know enough about the rift to understand the inaccuracies in the first place. And it doesn't affect the casual observer who had no plans of getting a rift. And it doesn't affect the curiosity of the other casual observer who wants to go find out more about the rift. When's the last time you heard about something that interested you on the internet and decided not to do any additional research and just stop there?

[zalo]

Notmuchpastnothing: It's all right, most of us are amateurs with just a hobby interest in VR.

That said, you wrote quite a bit. Try to shorten it down a bit. I think you're asking the feasibility of trading binocular overlap for more FOV. I agree that it will take both hardware and software modifications, but you shouldnt worry too much about those as id's software in the past has been very moddable, and the rift was designed to be moddable.

One problem I foresee that you hadn't mentioned is the boundaries between the images in the overlaps. Everything would have to be calibrated just right to let half of each side of the screen overlap with eachother while avoiding a line of discontinuity due to the distortions and brightness not matching up. This will always be a problem, but it will be exacerbated since the transition is right in the middle of your vision.

[Alkapwn]

You are mistaken. His point was about people who make blind statements about things in which they know nothing about. He just posted an essay talking about how people are comparing rift to google glass. Therefore what I said is not "ironic" because I didn't spout incorrect information or misread his point. What it reduces to is that he is getting upset over the GP's general lack of understanding, which occurs everywhere on the internet, all the time, over every subject. Just go to youtube comments and you will see some of the worst examples of ignorance. And I was simply suggesting that they have the right to post their ignorance and you have the right not to read it. Claiming that they should not be allowed to post on the internet unless they're at an arbitrary level of knowledge is just asinine. The solution to all of your problems is to not get so upset over people posting garbage on the internet. It doesn't affect you, because you already know enough about the rift to understand the inaccuracies in the first place. And it doesn't affect the casual observer who had no plans of getting a rift. And it doesn't affect the curiosity of the other casual observer who wants to go find out more about the rift. When's the last time you heard about something that interested you on the internet and decided not to do any additional research and just stop there?

Too funny. I really don't like getting into these things, unless it's comical online gaming trash talk. But alas here we are doing exactly what I deem both childish and hilarious.
1. Never said your post was ironic.
2. You did misread his post.
3. His post was not about not liking people that don't agree with him.
4. His point was people commenting without fully reading or understanding what they read/are talking about.
5. His comment about having a license to post online was probably a joke, as the ability to do this is extremely comical/impossible
6. Lists in online forum battles offer a 68% chance of victory
7. 84% of all statistics are false. Including this one.

[German]

Too funny. I really don't like getting into these things, unless it's comical online gaming trash talk. But alas here we are doing exactly what I deem both childish and hilarious.
1. Never said your post was ironic.
2. You did misread his post.
3. His post was not about not liking people that don't agree with him.
4. His point was people commenting without fully reading or understanding what they read/are talking about.
5. His comment about having a license to post online was probably a joke, as the ability to do this is extremely comical/impossible
6. Lists in online forum battles offer a 68% chance of victory
7. 84% of all statistics are false. Including this one.

Wow, we're all really, really bored to drop to all this backbiting and nitpicking.

[zalo]

Wow, we're all really, really bored to drop to all this backbiting and nitpicking.

It's because we keep checking the thread every couple of minutes for an update from Palmer, and instead we get this, ao we have to vent our excitement elsewhere. Just goes to show that this project is popular enough to attract all kinds of people (even before the kick starter!)

[notmuchpastnothing]

Notmuchpastnothing: It's all right, most of us are amateurs with just a hobby interest in VR.

That said, you wrote quite a bit. Try to shorten it down a bit. I think you're asking the feasibility of trading binocular overlap for more FOV. I agree that it will take both hardware and software modifications, but you shouldnt worry too much about those as id's software in the past has been very moddable, and the rift was designed to be moddable.

One problem I foresee that you hadn't mentioned is the boundaries between the images in the overlaps. Everything would have to be calibrated just right to let half of each side of the screen overlap with eachother while avoiding a line of discontinuity due to the distortions and brightness not matching up. This will always be a problem, but it will be exacerbated since the transition is right in the middle of your vision.

Your right. If the optical distortion correction isn’t just right, not to mention the variable acuity resolution, then you would have image mismatch. I didn’t think of this, thanks zalo. Seems like it could be a deal breaker. I might have to experiment anyway. I am hoping for some decent Unity 3D integration which was hinted at by Palmer.

[cybereality]

In terms of stereo overlap, you should be able to do this with my DIY driver when its ready. Some bugs still right now, but I can probably fix it this weekend.

In terms of the Rift 2, please, lets not get ahead of ourselves. The Rift itself is a HUGE leap forward compared to what we have had in the past. There is nothing on the consumer market that even comes close in terms of immersion. Resolution is not as important as you might think for the overall experience. Of course, higher quality screens are better. But things could always get better. And if the Rift 2 eventually does come out, its more than 1 year away so its not really worth getting too hyped up over (and we don't even know for sure its coming out). But right now its important that the Rift one is a HUGE success as this will set the stage for a Rift 2 or for other companies like Sony, Vuzix, SMD, etc. to step up their game. Even if you can't afford the full kit, or miss the first 500 spots, you can donate anyway to the Kickstarter so Palmer will have incentive to continue this work.

[zalo]

Seeing how tight Abrash and Carmack are (wrote Quake together), and how Abrash is now leading/a part of Valve's wearable computing division and how Carmack is cofounder of id, I daresay that extraneous donations will not be hugely neccessary if they see the RIFT's quota max out in the first 10 minutes.

But by all means donate! I know I will!

Heck, maybe Valve and id will partner up with Oculus to make an HMD for the entire industry if all goes well. I hope Palmer doesn't get left behind when they run wild with the whole thing.

[AntiCatalyst]

Wow, this seems to be coming together nicely!

Any swedes around who'd like to try and help me hype this thing up on the SweClockers forums? I created this thread last night but it's just not getting any kind of attention. (CyberVillain, I've seen you over there ) I may have pitched it all wrong, I wrote it from "our" perspective rather than focusing on how it could improve people's gaming.

Right now though, the one thing that's really hyped around those forums is high resolution screens, so this will be a toughie.

[cybereality]

@zalo: Yes, I can see what you are saying in that he might not *need* the money. However, if there is a monster response, for example getting over a million dollars, then this will send a big message to any companies in the industry that consumer VR is a viable market.

[notmuchpastnothing]

In terms of stereo overlap, you should be able to do this with my DIY driver when its ready. Some bugs still right now, but I can probably fix it this weekend..

Thanks great cybereality! Do you have any thoughts if less than 100% overlap will cause problems at the edges (the line between stereoscopic and monoscopic images) considering between optical distortion correction and variable acuity resolution, the images may not converge quite right.

[AntiCatalyst]

Zalo:
I'm sure there are plenty of companies trying to hand Palmer a wad of cash or just hire him, but the kickstarter really needs to happen for the Rift to remain as open as possible. Oculus needs to stand on its own!

Worst case scenario is it getting locked up to a certain game corporation.

[hast]

Any swedes around who'd like to try and help me hype this thing up on the SweClockers forums? I created this thread last night but it's just not getting any kind of attention. ...

Sure, I'll take a look at it as well later on. I figure it will probably be easier to get interest going when the Kickstarter launches and it becomes more obvious what the goals are. Right now it's probably a bit too abstract for a lot of people to wrap their heads around it.

[zino]

Any swedes around who'd like to try and help me hype this thing up on the SweClockers forums? I created this thread last night but it's just not getting any kind of attention. ...

Sure, I'll take a look at it as well later on. I figure it will probably be easier to get interest going when the Kickstarter launches and it becomes more obvious what the goals are. Right now it's probably a bit too abstract for a lot of people to wrap their heads around it.

I'm worried about over hyping the Rift. I'm OK with something glitchy/ugly/uncool-looking that I patch up with duct tape and start writing my own code for. Most people (even on a special interest site like sweclockers) are not. The push-back if too many consumers get the initial version could kill following models.

Here's hoping I'm just a pessimist.

[Endothermic]

Too funny. I really don't like getting into these things, unless it's comical online gaming trash talk. But alas here we are doing exactly what I deem both childish and hilarious.
1. Never said your post was ironic.
2. You did misread his post.
3. His post was not about not liking people that don't agree with him.
4. His point was people commenting without fully reading or understanding what they read/are talking about.
5. His comment about having a license to post online was probably a joke, as the ability to do this is extremely comical/impossible
6. Lists in online forum battles offer a 68% chance of victory
7. 84% of all statistics are false. Including this one.

I think maybe the "seriously" I put at the start of it was taken the wrong way so it wasn't seen as the light hearted comment it was. I guess thats still one of the major issues with text conversions and not being able to convey sarcsim or tone properly without explicitly indicating your doing it by saying so.

Anyway this is all completely off topic and under the bridge now and no need to keep going on with it so lets just end it there and get back to the RIFT

[C3DPO]

Most of you may have found this already. I just found this really lengthy interview with Carmack and the R&D he did on the Rift

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012- ... lity-uncut

[cybereality]

Most of you may have found this already. I just found this really lengthy interview with Carmack and the R&D he did on the Rift

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012- ... lity-uncut

Thanks for posting this link. Getting late now, but I will be sure to check it out tomorrow.

[brantlew]

It's an excellent interview. A must-read.

[ido]

I am pretty happy to see Palmer making this come true. I can't wait to get my hands on one of these as I know Palmer does good work.

I'm down to ZERO HMDs now, and I've had everything from i-glasses to a V8 to a modded MRG2.2. I need my fix.

[coresnake]

Sweet interview, once again though all the comments are way off. 'Only Carmack could pull this off', 'Carmack is a genius' etc...

I hope when the Rift comes out officially Palmer gets the credit he deserves

[cybereality]

Yeah, great read.

[lnrrgb]

Spotted a casual mention (a small flame out, down around mid-page). Anyone give their kids an iPhone? LINK

[juggernautxb]

Well, this is a fascinating forum that has been a pleasure to spin through. Between this and the multiple John Carmack articles I've read and 2012 E3 vid's I've watched, I'm truly excited about what the next few months, and perhaps more importantly the next two years, has in store for HMD's. ...and the potential for what could someday be called the baby steps that led to viable VR hardware. (and software)

I have to admit, I'm a console gamer at heart. However, I understand that this will be built for the PC with the idea of a grassroots movement of individuals trying to better this unit with the big picture in mind. It's fascinating to see a small group of individuals (growing daily though), rivaling some of the largest tech corporations in the world over this type of technology. Take pride in this.

HMD's (and VR) are again gaining steam. Microsoft is apparently researching an HMD, Sony has released a commercially successful unit, and the first 1080P units have just hit the shelves. Still, approaching this from the true gamer's stance, as you are, is the path that interests me most.

When gaming, I like to get lost in the environment that is the game. I guess all entertainment mediums are forms of escapism. But gaming, being the interactive art form it is, drives this home further. I rarely play MP games anymore. I'm always looking for new campaigns to conquer, new places to see.

When console 3D gaming became en vogue over a year ago, I was all in. I purchased a 3D TV and enjoyed several games in 3D on the Xbox360 and the PS3. The 3D did help to draw me into the environment a bit more than ever before, but this is just the beginning. An HMD with a wide FOV, head tracking, low latency, good optics, and sound software could put us inside the environment. I think this has been the dream for many of us since the term virtual reality originally surfaced.

Anyway, I'm sure Palmer is busy, so... Could someone please provide a reset for the state of things, at this moment?

As I understand it, the Kickstarter will start in the next few days. At that point, any money raised won't fund until the goal is reached. However, I also realize that Palmer is accepting pre-Kickstarter funding. For the $500 price point, what would be the differences between the pre-Kickstarter and the Kickstarter? ...perhaps just an earlier delivery?

My interest... For one, I'd like to collect what I think will be considered a piece of technology history. Secondly, I'd like to say I was in from the ground floor and helped to participate in its advancement. Even if at a minute level.

I wish all involved the best of luck. Keep working hard and moving forward!

[brantlew]

Sweet interview, once again though all the comments are way off. 'Only Carmack could pull this off', 'Carmack is a genius' etc...

I hope when the Rift comes out officially Palmer gets the credit he deserves

Don't discount Carmack's contribution to this project. Palmer had the brilliant insight that you could create a compelling piece of hardware using simple, cheap components but he was not able to express this idea fully without the necessary software support. Only a handful of people really understood the potential of the PRx (now called Rift) and luckily Carmack stumbled upon it at exactly the right time and understood its significance. The Rift is a marriage of hardware and software and Carmack was able to provide the second part of the puzzle. He provided a proof of concept that everyone could understand. Without Carmack, the Rift would have been a small garage project that 20 or 30 people had access to. Software support would have been spotty and slow to mature. And the larger gaming community would have ignored all of it. Instead, because of the quality of Carmack's Doom3 demo and his personal influence, the Rift has invigorated the hobbyist and commercial gaming community.

[coresnake]

You make a good point Brantlew, I didn't mean to discredit Carmack either, its obvious he's brought a lot to the table here too; the difference is that Carmack is already rich and famous...

[Krenzo]

I was surprised to read in that article that John Carmack offered a $10,000 bounty to reverse engineer/make an open source box for the HMZ-T1 and that no one took him up on his offer. Does anyone know where he posted that bounty? He mentioned wanting to get rid of the lag in the Sony box in the HMZ-T1 thread, but I didn't see anything about a cash bounty.

[brantlew]

He offered a bounty on this forum, and that's when he started talking to Palmer. If you look back in the long HMZ-T1 thread you can find it. But I don't think he ever quoted a dollar amount though.

[FingerFlinger]

I remember the discussion about the bounty here; I forget who was looking into it, but the conclusion was that you'd need to roll your own custom built FPGA solution which, even discounting engineering costs, would be very expensive.

[android78]

I would rather if someone could reverse engineer the iphone display so that we can send it raw images directly. Mounting two side-by-side, giving 960*640 wide-screen display which could (with appropriate prisms) even be put into a 'consumer acceptable' form factor, for about $60 for the displays!

[Krenzo]

I remember the discussion about the bounty here; I forget who was looking into it, but the conclusion was that you'd need to roll your own custom built FPGA solution which, even discounting engineering costs, would be very expensive.

It would cost ~$200 to get all of the hardware required (for someone who already does FPGA development and has the necessary lab equipment). The only hard part would be writing the FPGA code since you would have to communicate via DisplayPort protocol instead of HDMI which isn't as readily available. $10k would be very worth it which is why it caught my attention when I read about it. It doesn't seem like much of a point now though since everyone is onboard the Rift train.

I would rather if someone could reverse engineer the iphone display so that we can send it raw images directly. Mounting two side-by-side, giving 960*640 wide-screen display which could (with appropriate prisms) even be put into a 'consumer acceptable' form factor, for about $60 for the displays!

Why the iPhone screen? Just from a quick search, a lot of Android phones have 800x1280 and 720x1280 resolutions.

[ViruzZ]

I dont know if it was already posted but I found a guide how to make a similar wide FOV single screen device for 25$ using android phone for screen and video.

Or more advanced users can replace the android with real screen with inputs and whatnot.

http://www.vrtifacts.com/hmds/leep-on-the-cheap/

[EdZ]

DisplayPort isn't really an issue (it's just TDMS in a different wrapper to DVI/HDMI), rather taking that and talking to the OLEDs themselves. Even with a datasheet, writing an interface to a custom display is A Bit Tricky, and even moreso when you have to first reverse-engineer the interface for a panel with unknown response characteristics, especially when you have two of them you need to keep genlocked. Same issue with the iPhone display, or any other bare LCD or OLED panel.

[coresnake]

Is this reverse engineering problem you guys are discussing right now somewhat analogous to the problem being discussed a few pages back? Someone noted that we couldn't just rip a high res OLED screen from a newer Samsung phone etc. to get a 1080p display on the cheap, due to the fact that it talks directly to the phone hardware and so requires a custom 'driver board' (sorry if I got the terminology wrong). I remember whoever it was said that it would be extremely difficult to get something like that working, but from your current discussion of the HMZ-T1 it almost seems doable with the right combination of tools and coding know-how. (Or is it just that tasty 10k bounty which is making people optimistic all of a sudden?)

[C3DPO]

Maybe you are all getting sick of these interviews, but my curiosity is maxed out on this. Anyway, here is another "long -version" interview with Carmack. It's similar to the one I posted a link to a couple days ago. A few interesting different quotes from Carmack in this one. He goes a little more in depth about Palmer's research. Of course the reporter gets his name wrong. And he specifically says that both Sony and Microsoft saw a version of the HMD. I can't wait for the fresh interviews to come out of quake-con!

http://www.ausgamers.com/features/read/3226063

[BillRoeske]

Nice job tracking down the longer interviews, C3DPO. Thanks for posting!

[Krenzo]

DisplayPort isn't really an issue (it's just TDMS in a different wrapper to DVI/HDMI), rather taking that and talking to the OLEDs themselves. Even with a datasheet, writing an interface to a custom display is A Bit Tricky, and even moreso when you have to first reverse-engineer the interface for a panel with unknown response characteristics, especially when you have two of them you need to keep genlocked. Same issue with the iPhone display, or any other bare LCD or OLED panel.

But the bounty was to replace the Sony box which according to the discussion back then was sending a DisplayPort signal to the headset. The headset itself was doing the hard part you mention of driving the OLED panels.

[brantlew]

It seems doubtful that the bounty even exists anymore. This was back before the Rift and the to-be-determined commercial HMD, when the Sony was the only real option. Plus there's a good chance that after CES, Carmack is getting direct support through Sony with this issue.

[EdZ]

Ah, I see (I haven't had a chance to actually use a HMZ-T1 before). From reading the manual, it appears the processing box takes a HDMI input and outputs DP (and recieves control signals) through the proprietary connector. Presumably (and as described in the manual and marketing blurb), the processing box is dedicated to image processing and alignment (in place of doing it on-board the headset itself, either with a chip or by moving the OLED panels themselves). If said alignment were done in software, the processing box should be superfluous, as long as you provided the correct voltages via the custom connector (and assuming the controls require no response, or only a basic ACK) you could just connect the lines from the custom connector to a regular DisplayPort connector and connect directly to a PC.

But as Brantlew says, now the Rift is on it's way it doesn't really matter.

[zalo]

Thanks for the link!

It's kind of funny seeing John trip over himself in an attempt to say as much as possible. He tried to cover everything he didn't in the last interview, but it's muddled and hard to understand in the one if you hadnt heard the last one. His whole degrees of interaction with the controller integration and the mouse was out of context here.

Just goes to show how excited he is that he tries to say everything and forgets a few bits. I can only understand how hard it must be to explain why things like "FoV" are issues to the uninitiated.

EDIT:

We’ll have the source-code available.

[Krenzo]

Does anyone know exactly what's going to happen at Quakecon with the Rift?

[PalmerTech]

So, so sorry for not replying to anything, wanted to wait for some things to solidify (And they all did!) I am going to reply to things that other people have not already explained, if I missed something, let me know!

Given the plan to pursue a consumer-friendly HMD post-Kickstarter, do you still see supporting the kit version with display upgrades and the like, should they become available?

At this rate, are you going to have a booth at Quake Con?

I will support it as much as I can! It really depends on how much of a leap the consumer version is. If it needs new displays, new optics, and a new enclosure, there might not be much from the Rift that can transfer over. I am not going to have my own booth at QuakeCon this year, but we will definitely be there. Don't worry, Oculus will have a good presence.

What are these panels that will give 1080p for each eye? Up until now this thread has said that better panels will be a huge jump in price, now you are saying will be able to do 1080p for sub $1000.

- will we also be able to upgrade to wireless, and also have hand/weapon/wand positioning?

The panels are not available right now, there are several options that will be in production next year. Upgrading depends on how far improved the hardware is, a quantum leap would mean that there is little from the Rift that would go into the consumer unit.

Did you ever think when you first started this as a backyard project, that youd be leading a revolution?
Did you ever imagine youd be able to dictate your own rules to some of the biggest game companies in the world? - That would get me all giddy and take a while to sink in

It is not a revolution just yet, but I do have to admit that I did not see this coming. I am not dictating any rules to the game companies, though, just trying to get them to work with me! Thus far, everyone has been very fun to work with, game developers all want games to be as fun as possible!

Seems like great progress all 'round!

Mr Palmer, does the 2013 model depend on the success of the Kickstarter effort/sales of the kit model? As in, will the number of kit sales determine whether production of the 2013 model will go ahead?

It goes ahead regardless. Showing support is still very, very important though. The profit margin on the Kickstarter is going to be practically non-existent, so I have little to gain myself, but a lot of Rifts sold = A lot of gamer interest = even more developer support!

... absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning ...

Are you talking with Sixense/Razer about this? The Hydra is amazing and I saw Mr. Carmack talk about it a while ago.[/quote]

Yes, I am.

I'm actually quite surprised at how overwhelmingly positive the reaction to this has been. I don't think I've see a single 'bad' review from those who have tried it out, and there seem to be at least as many positive comments on the articles I've read, compared to the negatives. This compares to what seemed to be about 90% negative responses to any article that mentioned 3D (mostly referring to TVs or movies) a couple of years ago.

This is one of the best things about the Rift, IMO. In the past, cool looking and well marketed HMDs got a lot of hype, but the people who actually tried them usually came away unimpressed. In contrast, EVERYONE who has tried a Rift (One of the two prototypes currently in existence) has has a hugely positive response, even the several people with vision problems or a little dizziness when they unplug. The only people slamming it are people who had not had a chance to use it yet.

I am pretty happy to see Palmer making this come true. I can't wait to get my hands on one of these as I know Palmer does good work.

I'm down to ZERO HMDs now, and I've had everything from i-glasses to a V8 to a modded MRG2.2. I need my fix.

Glad you will be getting one! I like to think my work was good before, but the results of it have gotten much better over the past year as a result of working with some of the most brilliant VR people in the world.

Spotted a casual mention (a small flame out, down around mid-page). Anyone give their kids an iPhone? LINK

Kevit Mellott is a really knowledgeable guy, his site is a fantastic resource: http://mellottsvrpage.com/ I don't know why he has been so hostile towards the Rift, I have seen him on a few different sites assuming it is going to be a bad HMD, an opinion nobody who has used it shares. The Rift does not use a cell phone display as he asserts, and if this is about being first to the "finish line", I would think that the FOV2GO project I was a lead on beat that Sanwa by a long shot.

Does anyone know exactly what's going to happen at Quakecon with the Rift?

Deathmatches.

[PalmerTech]

Another update: CliffyB (Cliff Bleszinski) is the design director for Epic Games, he got to try out one of the prototype units:

https://twitter.com/therealcliffyb/stat ... 3216811008


He liked it.

[blitter]

Just wanted to say I couldn't be any more stoked about this.

Thank you Palmer! Can't wait to play with this!

[TheInevitable]

First, I'd just like to say that, before the price reduction, I was on the fence as to whether to buy the Rift due to it being just outside of affordability for me, but now I'm definitely buying it! Thanks Palmer and investors!

Anyway, I've read all 50 pages of this thread and every interview I could find, but I still have some questions (thought I might have missed an answer or two). And I apologize for the large number of questions below. I've been collecting them for a long while; I just haven't had the time to post them until now. I hope that Palmer or some of the very knowledgeable people here will be willing to answer what they can! Thanks in advance!


- Would DDD or IZ3D to enable 3D for the Rift work with any game? If not, what are the limitations?

- I've seen some minor complaints about the low resolution in interviews, but is it more or less noticeable than the HMZ-T1?

- Due to the way the image is distorted pre-HMD and how, when the fish-eye optics compress the image back into normalcy, there are more pixels in the center than on the edges, which is supposed to mimic how the human eye works. However, the display doesn't move with the human eye; it moves around and will be looking at other parts of the screen as well. Would it be a concern that, unless you are looking dead-center, the resolution will look significantly worse than if there is no fish-eye distortion? I'm honestly not aware of how much attention I give the center of the screen vs the sides while gaming, so I'm a little concerned about how it might affect playability.

- Related to the above, how much denser is the pixel density at the center of the screen versus the edges? How much of the viewable area is at a higher pixel density than if there was no distortion? That is, if the Rift's display size is 6", its pixel density is approx 251.6 PPI. What percent of the viewable screen is above that number?

- Also, some multiplayer games have a chat box located in the corner of the screen. Because of the lower pixel density combined with the magnification, will the text be still readable without having to have a huge font size?

- How much of the $400-500 cost is the screen?

- The optional film that can be placed on the screen (or was it the lenses?): its supposed to make the individual pixels less noticeable, but how does that affect the sharpness of the image and the quality in general? Does the film have to be applied before shipping or is it one of the things done by the customer? If the latter, can I remove and re-apply it to do comparisons to see whether the effect is something I'd like? If its not easily re-applyable, can I buy more of it?

- What kind of game support does the Hillcrest head tracker have? I'm wondering if it would be better to just go with something like TrackIR that already has a lot of game support. Since I will likely be gaming only in front of my computer with a keyboard and mouse, I don't need 360 degree motion, but I like the idea of having greater freedom of movement with the tracker being on my head and the future game support of it. Does Doom 3 support TrackIR?

- At what distance does your eyes focus at when looking at the display? Is it like the HMZ-T1 where the eyes think the screen is actually far away instead of an inch from your face?

- Can you take a picture of an image as seen through one of the optics and show it to us?

- Since it comes with no manufacturer's warranty, it seems like you could get a 3-year warranty from Square Trade for $85 under the Miscellaneous->Other Electronics category. Would it be possible to get a receipt in case of a warranty claim?

- Will you have a presentation at QuakeCon? Or just John Carmack touting it during one of his events? And as far as the deathmatches hint goes, does that mean its going to be used for the Quick Draw contest this year? I've been going to every QuakeCon since 2000 and I'll look forward to seeing the Rift there! (And I'm hoping I'll get a chance to demo one while there before my own gets sent to me after Aug 19th

- I know little about Kickstarter. If I give money to your Kickstarter project and the Kickstarter goal is not met, would I still get an Oculus Rift? If not, could I still buy one directly from you?

- At what time on the 19th will your kickstarter go up? Or will that be sent out in the newsletter? I wanna get in before the rush!


Thanks again! And special thanks to Palmer for the amazing work you're doing!!

[android78]

I'm probably not the most qualified to answer all these questions, but the bit that stood out was:
'there are more pixels in the center than on the edges, which is supposed to mimic how the human eye works'
I think that you're not quite understanding the problem. It's not that the optics mimic how the human eye works and having higher pixel density in the center of the screen, but it is an unintentional distortion of the optics that stretch the pixels towards the edge. Emerson has been working on a way to invert the distortion caused by the optics, so that it will all appear straight to the viewer:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=138&t=15086
There has also been some discussion about doing the same for chromatic distortion correction.
I don't think that it will change the resolution within the viewable area much though.

[coresnake]

Another article: http://www.kurzweilai.net/why-immersive ... ing-part-2

Seems like this is really starting to get popular!

[coresnake]

Perhaps a little offtopic but there's a cool Raytracing demo here that apparently the source will be available for soon, maybe someone can adapt it to use the rift, seems like it would be a cool thing to try with it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRlw-Qw9 ... e=youtu.be

[zalo]

Ray tracers are really the perfect thing for the rift and hmds.
You can shoot the rays at different angles for real (mathematically correct) distortion effects AND you can have a variable resolution to take account of that variable acuity thing.

It's too bad that it will be 5 or so years before graphics cards get powerful enough for it to become popular.

[TheRealistWord]

It's too bad that it will be 5 or so years before graphics cards get powerful enough for it to become popular.

Speaking about rendering technologies that would go great with the Rift, have you guys heard of Unlimited Detail? I've been following it like a hawk since 2010. It's a rendering engine that utilizes an advanced search algorithm to sort through massive amounts of point cloud data, only displaying/rendering on the screen what's directly visible to the viewer (so, it only needs to grab enough points for each pixel based on the resolution). The end result is just about photo realistic graphics running realtime at a comfortable FPS (the developer, Euclideon - with an o, not an a - is still sorting out lighting and animation and physics, all that stuff). As far as I know, only one company so far is incorporating the engine into their product, but of course once Euclideon works everything out and actually releases it to the public, it'll probably be a hit (I hope!). Here are a couple of vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUXsep0egj0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVB1ayT6Fdc

They're trying to revolutionize the graphics industry by doing away with polygons and shifting entirely to point cloud data (which Bruce Dell, the founder/main developer refers to as "atoms"), and the sweet point is that it doesn't require a powerful beast to run. I believe it's running off of a single core laptop, without even touching the GPU's power (though I may be wrong). But anyway, point of this post is - wouldn't it be amazing to incorporate the Unlimited Detail engine with the Rift?

Playing through FPS's with the Rift will most likely be amazing because of the immersive effect you'll get, but we can complement that with photorealistic graphics for an even deeper experience. And here's a thought:

Using the Rift for extreme immersion in a virtual, photorealistic environment rendered by Unlimited Detail, with 3D recreations of your hands being displayed onscreen in realtime with extreme accuracy from Leap Motion's Leap.

Three groundbreaking technologies that are definitely go to shake things up a bit. Amazing separately, and possibly even more amazing together

[spyro]

I have a more technical question about another aspect:

If you render a game with 1920 x 1080 pixels at 60 fps, you have to calculate 124.416.000 Pixels every second.

If I got that right, Oculus Rift will need 640 x 800 x 2 Pixels at 120 fps. So this is a total of 122.880.000 Pixels which is nearly the same. So any game that runs at 1080p with 60 fps should work nicely in terms of performance. As Doom 3 was made to be run at hardware of 2004, this should not be any problem for current systems.

The successor of the Rift will have "more pixels than 1080p per eye" according to Mr. Palmer. So let's estimate - say - 2560x1600. This would be 2560 x 1600 x 2 x 120 = 983.040.000 pixels/sec. - that's 8 times more than with 1080p@60 and AFAIK twice the maximum numbers even Display Port 1.2 can handle! Even with a Quad-SLI-System and a linear performance progression you will only get half the frame rate than you would get at 1080@60!

So there should be no way to push modern games to that frame rate and sheer pixel fillrate, even if you lower the detail extremely, deactivate v-sync and anti aliasing, use low res textures and so on.

So what could be the solution? Maybe a VR-optimized engine must have some special methods implemented to consider this.

Let's start some unqualified brainstorming:

- (Enhanced) stereo reprojection: Calculate only one image, reconstruct the other image out of the internal rendering data of the first image (see http://www.technology.scee.net/files/pr ... ionPS3.pdf, Slide 76+ and http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 64&start=0). A implementation was made by Crytek in their Cry Engine 3 (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjNB-zMsaNk) and by TRIOVIZ in various games. The results are ok but maybe this could be enhanced by some new algorithms for occluded volumes (http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/bmvc2008/pr ... ers/75.pdf)

- Realtime framerate upscaling: Calculate only 60/40 fps, synthesize in-between-frames based on the last frame with 2D calculation + Z-Buffer from the frame which is currently being processed (see http://and.intercon.ru/releases/talks/rtfrucvg/). At 120 fps, a single frame is only visible for about 8-9 ms. One shouldn't notice much difference to a native frame. The difference between two single frames at 60 fps should be even smaller than it would be at 30 fps, too. There should be no delay as this would be the case with interpolated frames because you flip the synthetic frame in WHILE the next regular frame is processed. So you will see your actions earlier on the screen compared to 60 fps.

- Find a way to render less details at the edges where you spend not as much attention to

- Render more pixels than you need (overscanning) and shift only the "visibility window" for small head movements

- Think about alternatives to traditional v-sync like Virtu's "HyperFormance/Virtual V-Sync" where the GPU renders as much frames as it can but if they are "unlikely" to be displayed (because of the display timing) they will be discarted while they render (textures and shaders will not be applied). So the next loop in the game engine will run sooner which decreases the delay between input and visual feedback (see http://www.behardware.com/articles/858- ... ction.html, Page 8)

- Maybe use some special lenses and some rendering magic to use physically lower resolution in the edges (no idea if this is even possible).

- ...

If John Carmack needs some new technical challenges - here they are!

Looking forward to the RIFT v1 now!

spyro

[zalo]

Unlimited Detail uses voxels, not raytracing. On the voxel front you have Atomontage, which is a much better engine than unlimited detail in pretty much every way (add shadows, shaders, tools for converting polygons, tools for generating high resolution terrain and rocks, polygon/voxel hybridization, realtime destruction and construction, and subtract the BS claims of "infinite points"). Plus, the developer was making it on a crappy laptop until recently.
Link: http://www.atomontage.com/

Also, spyro has hit upon a real concern, and I think that all his suggestions except realtime frame interpolation are good. If interpolating 1080p frames in real time was easier than actually rendering them, you'd think that Nvidia and ATI would have already implemented something like that in a driver. Plus, it adds the bane of John Carmack: LATENCY.

[pilzbefall]

i hope the microdisplays from emagin (WUXGA OLED-XL, 1920x1200) http://www.oled-info.com/emagin-awarded ... crodisplay are an option for the oculus rift in the future
http://www.emagin.com/oled-microdisplays/

P.S. great project, Palmer!

[WiredEarp]

Kevit Mellott is a really knowledgeable guy, his site is a fantastic resource: http://mellottsvrpage.com/ I don't know why he has been so hostile towards the Rift

Haha I enjoyed that little interaction. Engadget is the only place I go where I can be an bum-exit with no guilt, simply because its full of idiots. While he's been in VR for a long time, I don't really find his site a particularly good resource, looks like something out of the late 80's (seriously, spinning radioactivity symbols?) and the info in it is pretty much ancient as well.
I do always find it amusing to see those with some knowledge, refuse to admit they are wrong.

Very excited to hear about possible 1080+ screens and Hydra support for the Rift!

EDIT: Can we get the profanity filter reduced or removed? I think auto shortening the word 'a$$hole' to 'bum-exit' is kind of lame. Might be ok on a Disney chat site, but seem a bit out of place here.

[fireslayer26]

Yeah, I don't understand why he is so against the Rift. I have been following his work for a long time. He has also done alot to keep the Forte VFX-1 alive with projects like his Linkbox.

[android78]

i hope the microdisplays from emagin (WUXGA OLED-XL, 1920x1200) http://www.oled-info.com/emagin-awarded ... crodisplay are an option for the oculus rift in the future
http://www.emagin.com/oled-microdisplays/

P.S. great project, Palmer!

I don't think that would work. The optics of the rift are designed for a larger screen, so putting them on one of these would have no advantage in terms of FOV over something like a VR920.

[Endothermic]

I don't think that would work. The optics of the rift are designed for a larger screen, so putting them on one of these would have no advantage in terms of FOV over something like a VR920.

I also wouldn't be surprised with the jolt and buzz that the RIFT has kicked up if eMagin go and make a successor to the Z800 HMD they released in which case they wouldn't be selling the screen to their competition

[cybereality]

@TheInevitable: The DDD and IZ3D drivers should work OK in side-by-side mode. The main issue is that the aspect ratio will be off, and the screen will be warped against the edges. Emerson and I am working on 3D drivers to fix this, but they will only support a couple of games at launch. I've got L4D and Portal 2 working, and Emerson got Skyrim and Mirror's Edge.

@TheRealistWord: All the "unlimited detail" stuff is total marketing BS. If you are rendering anything on a computer it is within finite limitations: the number of pixels on the screen, the amount of physical RAM on the PC (or GPU), fill rates, bus speeds, etc. None of this stuff is even remotely "unlimited". Its all a bunch of smoke and mirrors. Now granted, voxels are pretty cool and may be used more in the future. But right now polygon rendering is way ahead of voxels in terms of hardware and software support.

@spyro: The Rift uses a single 1280x800 panel physically divided in two, and runs at 60Hz I believe.

[spyro]

Also, spyro has hit upon a real concern, and I think that all his suggestions except realtime frame interpolation are good. If interpolating 1080p frames in real time was easier than actually rendering them, you'd think that Nvidia and ATI would have already implemented something like that in a driver. Plus, it adds the bane of John Carmack: LATENCY.

Hello zalo,

no, there is in fact no latency at all, because the in-between-frame is interpolated (and showed on the screen!) while the next native frame is still in the rendering pipeline! So you see the first result of your last action earlier on the screen.







Full presentation: http://and.intercon.ru/releases/talks/rtfrucvg/

spyro

[EdZ]

'Unlimited Detail': a scam, or somebody fobbed a basic voxel renderer and some empty promises onto some clueless guys who proceeded to embarrass themselves by trying to sell it. Watch the video of it closely; every object is the exact same orientation, and there are maybe 5 or 6 unique objects replicated across the landscape. Classic hallmark of an octree layout, saving memory space by reading copies of the same object. Not scalable in any way to large amounts of unique objects without using terabytes of memory. Additionally, they appear to have done nothing towards the problem of voxel animation, as everything they show is static. It's not workable as an engine, and does nothing above what other research engines have done for the past decade or two. Atomontage, however, actually does some new things.


On high resolutions: game rendering difficulty (as opposed to ray-tracing) does not scale to linearly with increasing resolution. Most recent GPUs can handle multiple high-resolution screens without much more difficulty than a single display. Is is because the actual pixel pushing portion of the rendering pipeline is not necessarily the most time consuming, what with all the geometry (e.g. Tesselation) and texture work that has to go on before that, which doesn't scale much at all with resolution. The main boundary for truly ludicrous resolutions is memory size, and with modern GPUs carrying 1.5-2gb (or more) on board, that shouldn't be an issue for any display you could strap to your head in the near future. I'm not too worried about performance issues, and wow-factor you might lose by turning down somehow the quality settings will likely be more than offset by the massive increase in immersion.

[spyro]

@spyro: The Rift uses a single 1280x800 panel physically divided in two, and runs are 60Hz I believe.

Didn't Carmack in his E3 interviews talk about the importance the render 120 fps for his VR demo?

spyro

[NZstory]

I've been following the Oculus Rift with great interest. I wouldn't call myself a tech head but like to tinker and if I was to purchase a rift I dare say the only contribution I could make to the scene would be as a beta tester for the members that can do the amazing stuff.

So the question I have is where does that leave things for someone like myself and possibly the people that will be lucky enough to try it at Quakecon and would like their fix now rather than wait a year for a more polished consumer version.
I know it's very early days, but with all these talks to said companies is there likelihood that we will see support for their games sooner than a consumer version?

I remember way back in the day when 3Dfx was on the scene. I bought myself an Orchid Righteous 3D card just to play Tomb Raider in all its glory. It wasn't until a few months later that it really came into its own for me when QuakeGL came onto the scene. I can imagine the same thing happening here and to me I find that very exciting. I'm approaching 40 so maybe this is my version of a mid-life crisis where I want to relive my youth

[Endothermic]

Didn't Carmack in his E3 interviews talk about the importance the render 120 fps for his VR demo?

Yes he did when he was talking about when he built a 120Hz display and there was a company that made 120Hz driver boards available but they were $6000

So the RIFT V1 will be 60Hz

Perhaps the commercial RIFT V2 will be called the RIFT 120!!!

*120 Hz
*120 degree FOV
*120 grams
*120 μs latency

[DragonM]

'...what with all the geometry (e.g. Tesselation)...

A small nitpick, but I've been seeing it proliferate, so it's time to knock it on the head. Tesselation is very unlikely to be what you mean. Until DirectX11, nothing supported tesselation. Tesselation in the context of 3D rendering is generating new geometry within the video card, then using it in later render steps to, for instance, add sufficient detail to be able to cast correct shadows. Very very few pieces of software ever actually tesselate in their render pipelines, because the installed base of DX11 is still miniscule compared to the installed base of DX9, which does not support tesselation on GPUs.

The word you were looking for is "transformation". Pushing geometry around is applying matrix transforms to vertices, hence the name. A matrix transform applied to a point results in a new point, which, if you use the right kind of transform, is recognizable in some sense as the same point relocated. This mathematical process falls under the category of vector math. GPUs are very very fast vector engines, which is what distinguishes them from CPUs, which are scalar engines (with a few vector instructions liked SIMD tacked on). So a modern video card is capable of and required to perform many many transformations per millisecond in order to render a typical video game.

Tesselated geometry may later be transformed as well, to move it around, but the two processes are entirely separate and entirely different.

DM

(Just as a historical note, there was a time when the gaming press was full of the phrase "T&L Engine" while referring to 3D accelerator cards. The acronym stands for Transform and Lighting Engine. It's a reference to the fact that those two stages of 3D acceleration used to be fixed function. That is, the video card could do them, but it did them only in a single way that was built directly in to the silicon of the chip. These days the phrase has fallen out of use because fixed function video cards are no longer manufactured. Instead, GPUs are programmable.)

[Endothermic]

Until DirectX11, nothing supported tesselation.

Just to nitpick I believe ATI cards supported tesselation way back in the early 2000's as did games back then such as Messiah and Sacrifice (think that was only software tesselation though don't recall the game needing an ATI card to enable it).

Either way things did support tesselation before DirectX11 its just that DirecxtX didn't have it mandatory till 11

[EdZ]

I gave tesselation as an example (as its been in the news in the last few years, everyone has a reasonable idea what it does), but I meant any and all geometry operation, including tesselation, transformation, vertex shaders, and so on, as well as any and all texture operations, GPU PhysX, CUDA and other GPGPU operations. Basically anything the GPU does other than writing pixels to the display buffer (or buffers, for deferred rendering) is only loosely coupled to the final output resolution.

[rmcclelland]

A couple thoughts:

Carmack recently tweeted:
"I would like to do it, but it might be a tough cost/benefit case to make." in response to a question about making Rage compatible with the Oculus Rift. What? If he can't take the time to make his most recent game compatible, how can we expect other developers to? The cost is time, the benefit is awesomeness.

Interestingly, Cliff Bleszinski tweeted:
"It *is* Carmack's VR. Level was from Rage." Either there is some basic Rage support already or he is mistaken.

On another note, I played Skyrim on my 3D projector last night for the first time in a while. Very immersive. The experience of playing Skyrim with a high FOV/low latency/high res HMD would be truly amazing. I'd be willing to pay thousands to experience it (HMD + powerful gaming PC). Hopefully this will be a reality in the next year or so.

[space123321]

Any update if the Jumpstarter will start on the 19th still?

[mellott124]

Haha I enjoyed that little interaction. Engadget is the only place I go where I can be an bum-exit with no guilt, simply because its full of idiots. While he's been in VR for a long time, I don't really find his site a particularly good resource, looks like something out of the late 80's (seriously, spinning radioactivity symbols?) and the info in it is pretty much ancient as well.
I do always find it amusing to see those with some knowledge, refuse to admit they are wrong.

LOL. That page was designed in 1998. I update some sections from time to time but overall the site is the same as in '98. HMDs today aren't much more advanced then they were then either.
Everyone had spinning radioactivity symbols. We were playing Duke Nukem with the VFX1. I'm sure you remember.
Nothing I said at Engadget was wrong and I still hold to that. I spend a lot of my time in the schematics and FPGA code of microdisplay drivers.

Either way, I think for some people RIFT will be great. Looks like a great experimental platform. People have been trying stuff like that in homebrew for a very long time.
I hope Palmer does well because that will mean better HMD's from everyone else. However, people claiming its the end all of HMD's are just plain wrong. This type of hype and talk is what dooms HMDs when they come out. That's all I'm stressing. I don't mean to be hostile. I'm just giving my opinion like everyone else.

[zalo]

This type of hype and talk is what dooms HMDs when they come out. That's all I'm stressing.

Sage words. This reminds me all too much of the recently overhyped "Source Film Maker".
Too bad we can't bottle up all this hype and expectation for the first commercial release.
Besides, we are supporting one of our own here, it's hard to not get a little excited.


That said, OMG TOMORROW THE KICKSTARTER MAY BE STARTING. ONE MORE DAY, I CAN'T WAIT!

[hast]

A couple thoughts:

Carmack recently tweeted:
"I would like to do it, but it might be a tough cost/benefit case to make." in response to a question about making Rage compatible with the Oculus Rift. What? If he can't take the time to make his most recent game compatible, how can we expect other developers to? The cost is time, the benefit is awesomeness.

Interestingly, Cliff Bleszinski tweeted:
"It *is* Carmack's VR. Level was from Rage." Either there is some basic Rage support already or he is mistaken.

I believe Carmack has mention in passing in some of the many interviews I've seen and read that he has a special version of Rage with part of the map sectioned off where he plays with HMD stuff.

He hasn't really gone into a lot of detail about it, but it might be that it only has a static map and no NPC/enemies and stuff like that. I can easily see that a more complex game like Rage would take a bigger effort to port to something like OR since you still want to make sure that everything works and nothing breaks breaks because of the HMD. And you may not have enough power to actually keep it running at full FPS. (Which would be even worse for an HMD than normal gameplay.)

[TheRealistWord]

However, people claiming its the end all of HMD's are just plain wrong. This type of hype and talk is what dooms HMDs when they come out. That's all I'm stressing. I don't mean to be hostile. I'm just giving my opinion like everyone else.

Exactly. I feel like it's an incremental leap with HMD's - a step in the right direction - but overhyping anything, in just about every case, leads to disappointment. I feel I'm going to be VERY content with the Rift though, because for years I've been itching to try any type of HMD with a wider FOV. Even though it doesn't occupy our entire FOV, ~90° is much, much better than anything I've been able to get my hands on. The lower resolution, I'm almost certain, wouldn't bother me.

On the voxel front you have Atomontage, which is a much better engine than unlimited detail in pretty much every way (add shadows, shaders, tools for converting polygons, tools for generating high resolution terrain and rocks, polygon/voxel hybridization, realtime destruction and construction, and subtract the BS claims of "infinite points")

All the "unlimited detail" stuff is total marketing BS. If you are rendering anything on a computer is it within finale limitations: the number of pixels on the screen, the amount of physical RAM on the PC (or GPU), fill rates, bus speeds, etc. None of this stuff is even remotely "unlimited". Its all a bunch of smoke and mirrors.

'Unlimited Detail': a scam, or somebody fobbed a basic voxel renderer and some empty promises onto some clueless guys who proceeded to embarrass themselves by trying to sell it.

The impression I had was that Unlimited Detail completely lacks on the physics/animation/dynamic lighting/particles front, but would be well suited for displaying larger, static environments with a great amount of detail. My other concern was, like you guys mentioned, their claims of "Unlimited" despite everything existing in a finite manner. Even though they're currently able to sift through/render large amounts of data, the insane amount of memory required to store any massive environments (without repeating assets every so often) seems like an unrealistic feat atm, which I suppose might be more of a problem with technology and memory limitations than specifically with their engine. But just to clarify/correct my thoughts here, seems like an Unlimited Detail + Rift combination would be great for just general fly through's of environments, not for gaming/simulations/etc. (A video which was removed shortly after it was posted - most likely to an NDA - showed a camera moving around a large, static textured environment using Euclideon's engine).

I'm somewhat familiar with Atomontage and have seen a few videos, and I do agree that it blows Unlimited Detail out of the water in just about every aspect possible, but I was under the impression that Unlimited Detail was more efficient with speed and displaying larger environments. I'll have to do a bit of reading up on both engines, but Atomontage does seem to have more potential.

[hast]

However, people claiming its the end all of HMD's are just plain wrong. This type of hype and talk is what dooms HMDs when they come out. That's all I'm stressing. I don't mean to be hostile. I'm just giving my opinion like everyone else.

Exactly. I feel like it's an incremental leap with HMD's - a step in the right direction - but overhyping anything, in just about every case, leads to disappointment. I feel I'm going to be VERY content with the Rift though, because for years I've been itching to try any type of HMD with a wider FOV. Even though it doesn't occupy our entire FOV, ~90° is much, much better than anything I've been able to get my hands on. The lower resolution, I'm almost certain, wouldn't bother me.

I really think part of the problem here is that media which are reporting on this don't really understand what it's about. (Considering only a handful correctly attributed the construction of the device to Palmer I guess this isn't too surprising.)

Both Palmer and Carmack (in his interviews) have been quite clear that this is not intended to be the "end of all HMD's". In fact, they have been pretty clear that the intent is pretty much the opposite. The entire point of making it available to hackers is because it is NOT the be all end all product. But instead of trying to find all answers himself Palmer wants to get what he has out there so everyone else can tinker with it.

The end goal of this is to, hopefully, produce something awesome. But getting there requires both hardware and software. And since the current professional industries are not really interested in making affordable, worthwhile HMD systems then this is an alternative route to get the perfect HMD. (And I don't think anyone involved is so naive as to think something like that can ever be achieved considering how fast technology moves. There will always be something better around the corner.)

But you points are good in that it's important how this is presented to the "general public". So it's made clear that this is intended to be a prototype you tinker with. It's not really the same as a product you go buy in a store. (For better or worse.) We've recently seen the media blowback with the Ouya, and it would be a shame if something like that happened to this project too. (Although I'm sure $5 million in a week gives them some ointment for their problems.

[cybereality]

@mellott124: I don't think Palmer, or anyone else close to the project, marketed the Rift as the "be-all-end-all" of HMDs. But its certainly way ahead of mostly everything on the consumer market in the past 10 years (or ever really) and probably throws punches with some older professional-grade gear. So in that respect it is a huge step forward for homebrew VR, especially if its going to cost $500. Notice how I said "homebrew" and not "consumer". This is not a consumer product, or something intended for mainstream consumption. This is for hobbyists and hackers, people that want to mod the hardware, work with their own trackers or custom 3D engines. I think most of these people know what they are getting themselves into. Surely a few inexperienced people will bite on the Kickstarter and break off more than they can chew. Sure. But for the most part I think people understand what they are getting. Anyway, most of the hype has been coming from bloggers that actually tried the headset first-hand. These are people not familiar with VR, or maybe only trying out the standard 35 degree junk at CES or whatever. So I think their first impression is actually extremely valid.

[zalo]

Now I know it's going to sound really stupid asking this question this late in the game, but how exactly does the Rift connect to the computer?

I've seen mention of DisplayPort, but VGA, DVI, HDMI, Thunderbolt, and USB are all somewhat technically valid options (less so for the latter two) and I was just wondering how that worked.

It's a good thing there are adapters for VGA and DVI to DisplayPort if that's the case.

[cybereality]

@zalo: I recall Palmer saying it was a digital connection, so probably DVI or HDMI.

[LeeN]

Carmack recently tweeted:
"I would like to do it, but it might be a tough cost/benefit case to make." in response to a question about making Rage compatible with the Oculus Rift. What? If he can't take the time to make his most recent game compatible, how can we expect other developers to? The cost is time, the benefit is awesomeness.

I think the problem is that it isn't a simple hack, and would require some QA testing and tweaking to get right.

Doom 3 BFG has a budget and will have a lot of resources (people) already working on it so adding a feature would be more cost effective and better tested. Where as Rage has already been released and there may not be those resources to properly add Rift support.

So basically it makes sense to add Rift support to games currently under development.

But once they release Doom 3 BFG with Rift support, it should make it a whole lot easier to add support for future games.

[zdam]

The oculusvr site is currently showing a parked domain page.

So either the domain has expired or maybe some awesome new content/news is about to appear.

Please let it be the second

http://www.oculusvr.com/

[nesqi]

The oculusvr site is currently showing a parked domain page.

The oculusvr.com name server setup has been broken for a long time. I get the parked domain every now and then.

[3dcoffee]

The oculusvr.com name server setup has been broken for a long time. I get the parked domain every now and then.

Or it will redirect to a new Kickstarter page? :) Anyway, can't wait, it is already a working day in Europe. So I guess 6 more hours or so, until it's morning in USA…

EDIT: Now it is morning in USA (stock exchanges are already opended for 20 minutes), and I am constantly reloading Kikstarter's "recently launched" page, this phorum, and my email. :)

[nixarn]

Yay! Today's the day ^_^

I'll be refreshing this page all day long, let's hope oculusvr.com hasn't expired, not that it's _that_ big of a deal, the discussion goes on here and the kick-starter page is the important page.

[space123321]

Refreshing this page every ten minutes or so hoping for an update lol!

[Alkapwn]

Refreshing this page every ten minutes or so hoping for an update lol!

Might I suggest this to everyone waiting on the Kickstarter:

http://www.kickstarter.com/discover/recently-launched?

Because there may be some overlap to when it actually goes live and when someone has a chance to post here. This page should be the fastest way to tell when the Rift goes live. This way you don't have to search for "Rift' in Kickstarter's crappy search either. Refresh away my friends.

Or follow Road to VR's twitter. He seems to be watching this like a hawk as well, and will most likely post as soon as it goes live.

http://www.roadtovr.com/

[benz145]

Refreshing this page every ten minutes or so hoping for an update lol!

Might I suggest this to everyone waiting on the Kickstarter:

http://www.kickstarter.com/discover/recently-launched?

Because there may be some overlap to when it actually goes live and when someone has a chance to post here. This page should be the fastest way to tell when the Rift goes live. This way you don't have to search for "Rift' in Kickstarter's crappy search either. Refresh away my friends.

Or follow Road to VR's twitter. He seems to be watching this like a hawk as well, and will most likely post as soon as it goes live.

http://www.roadtovr.com/

Thanks for the link, Alkapwn. I am indeed watching closely! For those looking for the twitter feed, it's here: http://twitter.com/RtoVR

If RSS or email is your thing, both options are available in the bar on the right of the site.

[alexlf]

It's going to go up the moment I leave for work, isn't it?
Save me some Doom bundles!

[PalmerTech]

Going to reply to everyone's questions tomorrow morning, but I am to have to have to delay a little bit more. I have to fly up to Washington for something that relates to the Kickstarter.

Believe me, I don't want to delay any more than you guys do, but things keep coming into play that make the potential of this project so much better. Not talking about tiny improvements where you eventually have to stop nitpicking, either, I mean REALLY big things. z

I am putting together some teasers for you guys, anyone want to see a render of the new Rift design?

[druidsbane]

I am putting together some teasers for you guys, anyone want to see a render of the new Rift design?

YES!

[rajveer]

Of course! Plenty of images please

[omcfadde]

I am putting together some teasers for you guys, anyone want to see a render of the new Rift design?

Absolutely!

[space123321]

Thanks for the update Palmer - I have 4 windows open on my PC that I have been refreshing all day lol!

Any updates are greatly appreciated!

[jimbo2go]

anyone want to see a render of the new Rift design?

Nice! Did you put something together in Maya or something?

[Krenzo]

I have to fly up to Washington for something that relates to the Kickstarter.

Oh, visiting Valve? Maybe they're offering to give away something to be included in the backer rewards?

[blitter]

Going to reply to everyone's questions tomorrow morning, but I am to have to have to delay a little bit more.

How long is "a little bit more?"

[zalo]

Woohoo! It's VALVE TIME.
Carmack has had his turn with Abrash, now it's Palmer's!

Valve has to be really interested to be doing all these flights (unless John and Palmer are paying for it themselves )

One thing that is certain is that Valve interest is hype you can't discredit.

Maybe they'll make a game compatible in time for the first release like they did with Portal 2 and the Hydra. If its a new game, Palmer may be getting some top-secret insider info. Half life 3.

[Flim]

Looks like this project is growing into a monster!

I'm a flightsim guy and can't wait to tinker with the rift. Hopefully we can get a source for better screens, I would pay more without hesitation.

[howsTricks]

Very excited too, make sure you visit some of the sights while you're up here!

[Bishop51]

Super exciting times! All I can say is that it must feel fantastic to have a passion project like this garner so much attention. Way to go Palmer!!!

And if this flight is out to VALVE, then I applaud VALVE for being right on the money in terms of what the next leap forward can actually represent! The masses still have zero clue about the true implications of what's about to hit them square in the face Monitors, Big 3D tv's, smartphones, all of it will pale in comparison to what we'll see roll out over the next year or so (at least with respect to gamers).

[omcfadde]

I wonder whether Carmack plans to release Doom 3:BGF under the same license as the existing Doom 3 code release: GPLv3 + additional terms. I wouldn't so much care about the extra levels or storyline, but rather the "reference implementation" for head-tracking and VR 3D in a real game (as apposed to a demo program.)

Perhaps this is something Palmer could suggest to Carmack. Considering this is targeted as a hacker/hobbyist device to work out the kinks for an improved version in the future (hopefully still hacker friendly) I don't see any reason he'd be against source release. Perhaps only the hurdles of the company legal department.

In either case, source code or not, I'm definitely going to attempt to get my hands on a Rift. I really hope the Kickstarter timing is such that I'll see it before all the units are gone. (According to the map my timezone is GMT+3; sometimes my brain disagrees. )

Are we going to have some kind of a countdown, Palmer?

[howsTricks]

Don't forget Nintendo of America is based out of Redmond... As is Microsoft. And Amazon. And there's a Google office here too... The list goes on.

[spyro]

@Palmertech
Hmm, I really was hoping that the project would start today. I'm sure that you have good reasons for another delay, but
maybe you should just take your time for what has to be done for the success of your project and not making any promises about June/End Of June/July 19nth anymore. I was refreshing kickstarter and this thread all day long because I was afraid that all units would be sold out within minutes - for no reason.

So, good night until tomorrow and good luck with - whoever it might be in Washington.

spyro

[chieF]

I was so all geared up to get HMD in gaming with the oculus.

Sadly, the first fact that was approvable for us - "the kickstarter date" - was disappointing. Luckey, please don't make up stories to get us reading your posts... Your credibility is not strengthened by naming a few names of the industry, where you got an (i begrudge) appointment. Please give us facts, we don't want to read about another Duke-Nukem-HMD-Myth.

If it turns out to never reach the market, would I stop reading your "blog"? In any case: Don't mind - there are many words to describe internet hypes. Boring isnt one of them

[AngelJ]

I was so all geared up to get HMD in gaming with the oculus.

Sadly, the first fact that was approvable for us - "the kickstarter date" - was disappointing. Luckey, please don't make up stories to get us reading your posts... Your credibility is not strengthened by naming a few names of the industry, where you got an (i begrudge) appointment. Please give us facts, we don't want to read about another Duke-Nukem-HMD-Myth.

If it turns out to never reach the market, would I stop reading your "blog"? In any case: Don't mind - there are many words to describe internet hypes. Boring isnt one of them

You signed up to make this rude and barely comprehensible post? Ok.

Anyway, I'm excited to hear the good news Palmer!

[Flim]

let see some pics then... I was ready to get the cnc up and running along with chopping up my new motocross googles!

[Bishop51]

I was so all geared up to get HMD in gaming with the oculus.

Sadly, the first fact that was approvable for us - "the kickstarter date" - was disappointing. Luckey, please don't make up stories to get us reading your posts... Your credibility is not strengthened by naming a few names of the industry, where you got an (i begrudge) appointment. Please give us facts, we don't want to read about another Duke-Nukem-HMD-Myth.

If it turns out to never reach the market, would I stop reading your "blog"? In any case: Don't mind - there are many words to describe internet hypes. Boring isnt one of them

So, which competing VR headmount or glasses based display company do you work for exactly? Troll behavior like this is as transparent as water chieF. Or maybe you're just an impatient 12 year old?

Respective to the Kickstarter delay...seriously people...you either do it right or you don't do it at all. A day or two delay to add polish, to firm things up and to ensure that the Kickstarter launches without a hitch is VITAL. Making a few folk grouchy due to the delay is a small price to pay. Launching when you're not ready to launch is just stupid and it's very difficult to back-paddle away from that if it creates issues which affect paying customers. Delay is often the best course and the most responsible thing to do.

It'll come and when it does, many smiles to be had

[blitter]

Palmer, don't pay attention to the haters-- if the Kickstarter needs more time, it needs more time.

In the meantime, I will sit here waiting with cash in hand, eagerly awaiting the next bit of news.

Viva la Rift!

[3dcoffee]

Thank you for the update, Palmer. Me to was sitting all day at computer, and refreshing Kickstarter's page every 5 minutes (literally). My worry being I could miss the time, and the product will be sold out very quickly.

Delays are no problems, just do what you need, so that you are sure it is as you want it to be. My money is waiting anyway. The only thing that slightly depresses me, is not knowing in advance at what day/time it will be started. Is it possible to send the info by newsletter, say in 6 hours advance, or some kind of countdown? Because we here, in Europe, go to sleep, when you over there come back home from work. Is it possible to arrange it somehow that we know in advance, when it is going to go live?

Thank you, and good luck with the Washington thing and everything.

[WiredEarp]

Is it possible to arrange it somehow that we know in advance, when it is going to go live?

I second this, it would be great if we on this forum at least could get told a date/time beforehand, so we can all be lined up to buy and dont miss out

[android78]

@chieF - I see that you are passionate about getting your hands one of these... That's cool! Just remember that this is a project of passion, and not a commercial project, so we should all be grateful to those putting in the hard work to (finally) push the industry to the point we should have been, in my opinion, 10 years ago. I think the amount of information that Palmer has released about this, to the point you could basically make your own kit, shows that he isn't just making stuff up.
I would be quite surprised if we don't see a commercial product that will rip off the designs of the Rift shortly after the kickstarter project is released.
Anyway... Can't wait to see some renders! Also, if the Bioshock Infinite delay can be turned into a positive by including native support for the Rift, that would be great... anyone tried contacting Ken Levine. He seems the kind of guy who might even consider pushing something like this. Come on, let me dream!

[lnrrgb]

ummmmmm.. hint hint.. I live up here in Washington.... and have you seen the cost of shipping these days??? Two birds, one Rift... I'm just saying:)

[omcfadde]

Is it possible to arrange it somehow that we know in advance, when it is going to go live?

I second this, it would be great if we on this forum at least could get told a date/time beforehand, so we can all be lined up to buy and dont miss out

I'll third this.

@Palmer It'd be great to make an announcement here, in this thread, say 1 day before the Kickstarter will go live. e.g. "Kickstarter going live at 13:00 GMT+N tomorrow, happy hacking!"

Something along those lines. Otherwise, well, I'll keep checking it during work hours.

[rajveer]

I'll third this.

Fourth'd (in the hopes that you realise how important this is for overseas guys )

Also, I won't be happy unless the new design has some duct tape slapped onto it somewhere, that's one of the awesome things about Carmack's images :p

[sambeckett]

I'm guessing from all the chatter the kickstarter project is supposed to start today!
Can't wait!

Also if we need to buy some duck tape, you can buy some Super Mario duck tape @ target
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR7NziFmKfc

[zalo]

It was supposed to start today, but got delayed again in the face of some more (good (mystery (possibly valve-related))) developments.

That said, to people like cheiF, Palmer owes no one anything. It's not like people have money invested in him (unless you do (in which case the kickstarter doesn't even matter to you)) that makes him have to cater to all of our fan whims. He's under no binding obligation to use to even do a kickstarter, so he can delay it as much as he wants. He can just release it to Valve and Epic and Carmack and vanish from the face of the earth, and all the harm that will come of it is a few hurt feelings (and hopefully refunds). The point is, it's a cardinal no-no to get angry at someone for not volunteering to slave away for hours and hours just so you can get a "product" that doesn't even exist yet (disregarding prototypes).

So simmer down and let Palmer do whatever he likes.



Besides, it's good news in the long run.

[DragonM]

Also, I won't be happy unless the new design has some duct tape slapped onto it somewhere, that's one of the awesome things about Carmack's images :p

It IS a hacker/hobby project. You are encouraged to get creative with the application of duct tape to your own Rift and post pictures.

DM

[howsTricks]

It was supposed to start today, but got delayed again in the face of some more (good (mystery (possibly valve-related))) developments.

That said, to people like cheiF, Palmer owes no one anything. It's not like people have money invested in him (unless you do (in which case the kickstarter doesn't even matter to you)) that makes him have to cater to all of our fan whims. He's under no binding obligation to use to even do a kickstarter, so he can delay it as much as he wants. He can just release it to Valve and Epic and Carmack and vanish from the face of the earth, and all the harm that will come of it is a few hurt feelings (and hopefully refunds). The point is, it's a cardinal no-no to get angry at someone for not volunteering to slave away for hours and hours just so you can get a "product" that doesn't even exist yet (disregarding prototypes).

So simmer down and let Palmer do whatever he likes.

Besides, it's good news in the long run.

To contrast this, in my mind his behavior basically nullifies any thought of me *pre-kickstartering* this project (not to mention he's requesting that people use the *gift* paypal method, something that negates any refund ability on the part of paypal). Hell, it makes me reconsider even investing at all. $500 isn't really chump change for most people and in light of many kickstarter projects of similar pedigree (ie. Some random dude in his basement) ala http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zio ... lasses-for how it's been handled so far doesn't really boost confidence.

All I'm saying is so far any dates mentioned so far have not been hit and those have just been to release info! What makes anybody so sure he can even deliver on a physical product? A physical product we've barely seen, and has only been shown to a select few. All I'm saying is one should be cautious of this whole project. I'm incredibly excited for what this represents but I'm just as wary.

[jimbo2go]

It was supposed to start today, but got delayed again in the face of some more (good (mystery (possibly valve-related))) developments.

That said, to people like cheiF, Palmer owes no one anything. It's not like people have money invested in him (unless you do (in which case the kickstarter doesn't even matter to you)) that makes him have to cater to all of our fan whims. He's under no binding obligation to use to even do a kickstarter, so he can delay it as much as he wants. He can just release it to Valve and Epic and Carmack and vanish from the face of the earth, and all the harm that will come of it is a few hurt feelings (and hopefully refunds). The point is, it's a cardinal no-no to get angry at someone for not volunteering to slave away for hours and hours just so you can get a "product" that doesn't even exist yet (disregarding prototypes).

So simmer down and let Palmer do whatever he likes.

Besides, it's good news in the long run.

To contrast this, in my mind his behavior basically nullifies any thought of me *pre-kickstartering* this project (not to mention he's requesting that people use the *gift* paypal method, something that negates any refund ability on the part of paypal). Hell, it makes me reconsider even investing at all. $500 isn't really chump change for most people and in light of many kickstarter projects of similar pedigree (ie. Some random dude in his basement) ala http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zio ... lasses-for how it's been handled so far doesn't really boost confidence.

All I'm saying is so far any dates mentioned so far have not been hit and those have just been to release info! What makes anybody so sure he can even deliver on a physical product? A physical product we've barely seen, and has only been shown to a select few. All I'm saying is one should be cautious of this whole project. I'm incredibly excited for what this represents but I'm just as wary.

Great! Be gone then, don't buy one. That's one more RIFT for the people who know what they're doing. Understandably you might be wary of this as someone coming from the outside, and that's totally fine. Don't bother about it then.

I know for a fact he is delivering this product. As someone who has already used Palmer's equipment on two VR projects, and collaborated at his lab in Los Angeles, there is no doubt in my mind that he's got everything under absolute control. I don't mean to sound harsh, but there's really no point in questioning everything in this forum - feel free to do that on your own blog or something.

[Nick3DvB]

But the man said the toy shop would be open today...

Do yourself a favour and go buy an HMZ-T1.

[cybereality]

Well, like I've said before: I've been sitting here patiently waiting for a real VR setup since the 90's. A few more weeks is nothing.

[howsTricks]

Great! Be gone then, don't buy one. That's one more RIFT for the people who know what they're doing. Understandably you might be wary of this as someone coming from the outside, and that's totally fine. Don't bother about it then.

I know for a fact he is delivering this product. As someone who has already used Palmer's equipment on two VR projects, and collaborated at his lab in Los Angeles, there is no doubt in my mind that he's got everything under absolute control. I don't mean to sound harsh, but there's really no point in questioning everything in this forum - feel free to do that on your own blog or something.

That's great that you've worked with him and trust him, but I haven't and don't and I thought it was a valid point to bring up. Hell, I'm sure you're never been burned by a close friend before either, right? All I'm saying is that from an outsiders perspective the project isn't exactly showing a strong face. Take from that what you will, but it not like I don't want this project to succeed.

But the man said the toy shop would be open today...

Do yourself a favour and go buy an HMZ-T1.

So this isn't a toy to you too? And what makes you think I don't already have an HMZ?


Boy I sure am glad this community is so welcoming, sorry I criticized your golden boy, I'll be leaving now.

Edit: doesn't look like there's a way to delete your account, could a mod please do it?

[MSat]

I am putting together some teasers for you guys, anyone want to see a render of the new Rift design?

lol.. Did you even need to ask?

[WiredEarp]

there is no doubt in my mind that he's got everything under absolute control. I don't mean to sound harsh, but there's really no point in questioning everything in this forum

PalmerTech has a very good reputation, and I dont believe he would promise something like this and not deliver.

However, having said that, I think the whole point of these forums IS to share information and raising questions is part of that. Lets not start thinking that we somehow have the right to tell others what they can and cannot discuss civilly. I think howsTricks raised a valid point, to someone who has no knowledge of PalmerTech and his reliability, the risk factor will seem higher, than say, buying a ST1080 or HMZ, and it wouldn't be stupid for those people to be cautious since they really have very little information to judge the risk from.

Personally, I'm happy with this, I dont want the Rift to be TOO popular at first, I want a chance to get one

[coresnake]

You guys, quit being buttholes.

Some of us have been waiting for a decent HMD for 20+ years. You seriously can't even wait a few more days??

[WiredEarp]

That's great that you've worked with him and trust him, but I haven't and don't and I thought it was a valid point to bring up. Hell, I'm sure you're never been burned by a close friend before either, right? All I'm saying is that from an outsiders perspective the project isn't exactly showing a strong face. Take from that what you will, but it not like I don't want this project to succeed.

Thats understandable, personally I wouldn't subscribe to the preorder bit if I wasn't aware of PalmerTech's previous work etc. I think you'll find once it goes to Kickstarterm that it will look much more professional and most of your worries will disappear.

Boy I sure am glad this community is so welcoming, sorry I criticized your golden boy, I'll be leaving now.

I think your points were valid enough, but you probably received a bit of a knee jerk reaction as most of us are very excited about the Rift and the future possibilities it entails, and we also have a fairly long knowledge of what the product will be, and its previous design iterations (such as the PR series of HMD's that PalmerTech has also created). Those factors, combined with the fact that this is not really meant to be a 'consumer' HMD, means most of us dont really care if it looks dodgy to others or not at present - we just want our high FOV Rift HMDs and are prepared to take PalmerTech at his word.

[LoneCoder]

So right now http://www.oculusvr.com is down and showing a page saying that it was recently transferred to namecheap.com, which means that PalmerTech and the Oculus Rift has probably been acquired.

Welcome! This domain was recently registered at namecheap.com. The domain owner may currently be creating a great site for this domain. Please check back later!

Now I'm worried that Valve owns it and they aren't especially known for moving quickly (Half Life Episode 3).

[coresnake]

So right now http://www.oculusvr.com is down and showing a page saying that it was recently transferred to namecheap.com, which means that PalmerTech and the Oculus Rift has probably been acquired.

Why would changing a hosting service have anything to do with him being 'acquired'? If (and I say if, because Palmer himself has already stated that he turned down all such offers), the Rift was being acquired, it would simply mean that there would be a product page created on the site of whoever the purchaser was, be it Sony, Microsoft, or Valve. There is absolutely no reason for Palmer to move his practically empty blog to another hosting service because of that.

This rampant speculation is getting worse than pre-E3 level; you guys need to take a chill pill already.

[Alkapwn]

I can understand that if you got in on the preorder why you could be a little concerned. I know I myself was at first. But I did my due diligence in researching everything and those concerns faded away. The fact that this is a somewhat nerdy "product" on the internet and has some huge names attached to it, should ease some doubt as well. The last thing you'd want to do is make a bad rep for yourself on the internet when that's where the majority of your client/fanbase is. So you make off with a few grand and your reputation ruined? Not the best business model.

If you however ARE waiting for the Kickstarter, I really don't understand the complaints. Every "delay" to a non set in stone start date has been explained to you by the person RUNNING the project that it's in the best interest of the customer AND project. Would you rather it went live on July 1st for $500 with NO tracker an possibly no DOOM 3D either? Best case, each delay causes Rift to be cheaper and get more people on board that can actually make playable stuff that's Rift Ready for when you get the Rift. Worse Case he doesn't launch it at all and you have to find something else to complain about.

I do agree however with people in similar circumstances to those overseas or not able to be at a comp all day refreshing to see when it does go live. It would be super sweet if Palmer gave a heads up to launch time when that eventually gets finalized.

[jimbo2go]

That's great that you've worked with him and trust him, but I haven't and don't and I thought it was a valid point to bring up. Hell, I'm sure you're never been burned by a close friend before either, right? All I'm saying is that from an outsiders perspective the project isn't exactly showing a strong face. Take from that what you will, but it not like I don't want this project to succeed.

Sorry I busted your balls, its a valid concern to bring up. At first glance it just looked like naysaying - there's been several "competitors" posting in these forums with fake accounts, trying to bash on the Rift and trolling for no reason, so its easy to be a bit defensive on these matters.

[hast]

I think it's all just that people are really psyched to get their hands on this. It has been slipping a few times now and it has usually been last minute notice. Which I can certainly understand, because I figure Palmer has quite a lot to do right now. It would be nice though if there was an update somewhere as soon as it was known that a certain deadline was slipping. (Too be fair I'm not sure how many were actually deadlines which Palmer stated himself. The first few were during interviews with Carmack, and while that came from Palmer I'm guessing it was more a rough estimate than anything else.)

In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter to wait a few more days though.

Regarding getting a "pre-notice" about the Kickstarter I was thinking about that before. I think it would probably be best if it's not too far ahead of the scheduled release. The reason is to let people here get in on the early bird offers, but if it has a day or so to spread on the internet before hand there may be a lot more people hearing about it than just the people who are lurking in this forum. But 6-12 hours or so would be nice because then I don't have to buy a new F5 key quite as soon.

[MalDuffin]

As the KickStarter dates have slipped ( and many an F5 button has been hammered to near death ), a good solution could be for Palmer to say he'll post the KickStarter date 12/24 hours in advance to both this forum and in the mailing list ( or just to the mailing list, I'm sure that any interested parties have already signed up ).

This means that all of the people ( esp non-US ) get a definite day and time where they can then sit and refresh the KickStarter page as much as they like, in order to not miss taking part in this cool project ( and of course putting their money and their trust into it ).

There seems to be a 500 device limit - if there were going to be unlimited devices ( within reason - I have previously KickStarted a Pebble watch http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/597 ... nd-android and I believe they had to close early, leaving some people unhappy about not getting ordered ), then the tension for getting into those slots might ease up a bit too.

Of course, KickStarter might go live, and there might only be a few hundred subscribers in the first few days, but if it sells out straight away and some forum members miss out, there could be some severe trolling / flaming / leprechauning going on lol

[EdZ]

I'm not sure it's really fair to say 'the kickstarter date has slipped' when no date has been given more specific than 'the kickstarter will be running during quakecon'.

[Endothermic]

At the start of the thread there was talk about 2D on the RIFT and needing to do a driver to do the SBS for the 2D etc which is obvious enough but was that explicitly for the Windows Desktop (which is 2D) and 2D applications eg photoshop, office, firefox etc or would the same thing have to be done to display a 3D game (or other 3D virtual world simulation) which are already doing SBS 3D in 2D?

I just reminded myself years ago of some people when the iGlasses-3D came out and they just could not use it, after just a short time of use they would start to feel queezy from the 3D effect and it was from the 3D effect and not from being an HMD or the tracking since they had no trouble at all playing the same game for hours on the 2D version of the iGlasses.

So just wondering if it would be a simple thing to get a 2D image on the RIFT so there is no 3D effect in 3D games (so nothing to do with being able to use the RIFT on the Windows Desktop or with other 2D software) like just displaying the left image on both sides or would you would still need to do a whole new driver or other software solution for it?

[cirk2]

All thos bitching arround about "slipped dates":
1. There was no definite date given (only thing I remembre is that the kickstrater will be placed so it spans over gamescom and quakecon)
2. You are not entitled to anything, fix your perspective
3. This was a hobbist project, Palmer himself is propably suprised what a wild ride he began. And there is no telling how deep the rabbid hole goes.

So stay calm and await what's to come.

[brantlew]

@Endothermic: The Rift requires a split screen view - even in 2D mode. Bring it up with Emerson and Cyberreality. They are the ones doing the Rift game drivers. You would have to code it per-game just like you do with the 3D driver - the only difference being that the perspective would be the same in each view. But all the FOV/aspect ratio/and dewarping would need to be done just the same.

[space123321]

Really looking forward to an update from Palmer today as well as hopefully some new pics!

To those who are complaining about dates being pushed back - there has never been any promised dates... Palmers latest ETA clearly stated "July 19 or so"... these delays are clearly for the momentum that the rift is building. As many on here - I sit with cash in hand waiting patiently for the release however no one has any right to complain or demand anything in terms of pushing the Rift along! Again - I simply want to take a moment and thank everyone who is involved in the project and thank them for making my VR dreams (that started way back in the 90's) closer to a reality!

Cheers!

[lnrrgb]

I just listened to an interview with the guy behind Raspberry Pi, and it left me worried for Palmer. The scale of the project may be different, but I bet it is similar in the exponential growth aspect. They were so caught off guard by the demand, and even those around them, who offered to help on ramping up productions, did not seem to have a grasp of what was about to happen. There may not be orders for a million Rifts anytime soon, but the numbers are probably daunting in the very least. I am surprised he has been about to offer any updates (but I like them).

[Endothermic]

The Rift requires a split screen view - even in 2D mode. Bring it up with Emerson and Cyberreality. They are the ones doing the Rift game drivers. You would have to code it per-game just like you do with the 3D driver - the only difference being that the perspective would be the same in each view. But all the FOV/aspect ratio/and dewarping would need to be done just the same.

Yes I know 2D would still have a 640x800 image for each eye cos of the SBS design of the RIFT, I wasn't implying to use the whole screen for a 1280x800 higher res 2D image.

But in the case of say D3:BFG which will already work with the RIFT the driver/game is already adjusting the FOV, Aspect ratio, Warping the image to correct for the lenses etc then displaying the Side-By-Side image with a 640x800 image for the left eye and a slightly different perspective 640x800 image for the right eye which gives the 3D effect.

Obviously if you wanted to use photopshop or something else with the RIFT then you would have to write a new driver to get it to warp the image etc then display it SBS since one doesn't exist yet but D3:BFG and other games that people get running on the RIFT in 3D, are already doing everything to display the game in 2D (such as the warping, FOV, rendering it 640x800 and displaying it SBS etc) it's just that in addition to all of that which is required for the image to fit on the display and look flat instead of fisheye they are also rendering a second slightly different image for each side of the screen which gives the 3D effect. So wouldn't it be simple enough to tell it to just not render that second slightly differen't perspective image (or inefficiently, tell it to just ignore the 2nd rendered image) and just display that first rendered image on each side, rather then needing to create a whole new driver to do it?

Now I don't know anything about programming other then some simple VB so maybe there is some technical reason or something else that i'm completely missing but I just don't see why if something is already running in 3D on the RIFT that a whole new driver would have to be written for it to display in 2D instead of 3D since the 3D driver is already doing everything the 2D driver would do just that it is also doing that extra step ontop of that of rendering two different perspective images each time instead of just the one for both sides of the screen.

[brantlew]

The "rush" may not be as bad as many people are predicting. This is still a very niche product and with the recent rumblings of a consumer version in the works - that might keep many people on the sidelines. When Palmer offered the pre-release a few weeks ago I was having the same fears. Refreshing like mad with cash in hand to ensure that I got one of those first crucial spots. But three or four days after he announced it, he had gotten only about 20 orders. So the demand was not as high as I let myself believe. I'm sure that all the people that check this site on a daily basis will have enough time to get their order in.

@Endothermic: If a 3D game driver already exists then yes, providing a 2D version is rather trivial. You just skip the viewpoint shifting step. Desktop 2D is a whole different matter entirely however since it's not being modeled and rendered on the video card the same was as a video game. You would probably need to create a Windows display driver to accomplish that. The good news is that a Windows display driver would work in general for all desktop content. No per-application customization necessary.

[TheRealistWord]

Even though I'm anxious, I wasn't necessarily disappointed that the kickstarter didn't launch yesterday. If I can remember correctly, he only said around the 19th, not on, so I was under the impression that it'd be maybe a week at most after the 19th. But in either case, delays are to be expected. I'd much rather a product that's delayed for a couple weeks so that it can be further refined and gain more support, rather than something that feels rushed. So take your time Palmer! (but er, not too much time, there's a long line of people waving some cash around! ).

[hast]

The "rush" may not be as bad as many people are predicting. This is still a very niche product and with the recent rumblings of a consumer version in the works...

Yeah, I bet you're right. Particularly since there has already been a pre-sale as you mentioned. And it is a quite sizable amount of money to put into a Kickstarter if you're not sure it's for you.

I'm sure the biggest surges will come around QuakeCon and such, when it is likely to get out more in media.

And it'll be fun to see what all this extra planning will bring. At the beginning it seemed like just getting involvement from Carmack was really awesome. But it seems like it will be ever better than than.

[Endothermic]

I don't think there will be that "big" of a rush for the RIFT if the kickstarter and quakecon etc makes it clear (and the people reading/hearing it actually can actually understand) that it is not a consumer (friendly) product and only a kit/enthusiast product.

I think there will only be a big rush or extremely high demand for the RIFT V1 if there is a swamp of teens pledging for it that don't really know about it and think they will be getting a shiny new 10x better and cheaper HMZ-T1 they can just unbox, stick on their head and then play any game on to be in complete VR heaven.

From the sound of things that could very well happen with the 2013 commercial RIFT though

If a 3D game driver already exists then yes, providing a 2D version is rather trivial. You just skip the viewpoint shifting step.

Thats what I figured since it seems only logical as the 3D driver is already doing everything the 2D needs to do just an additional step so shouldn't be too hard to just ignore it but wasn't sure as sometimes simple things can be complicated

[FingerFlinger]

As far as the Kickstarter date, we at least know that it will be before Quake Con, so next week seems pretty likely.

In fact, I think Palmer is trying to get more demo units ready by then; between that and meeting with industry big-wigs, he must be SWAMPED.

[lnrrgb]

The rush will be nowhere near Pi numbers, but I have been surprised by all the new posters in here. The connection with Carmack, and now the dropped hints about future improvements, I can just see "whomever" getting at bit more swamped than they expected. The retail adoption of 3D in general is kinda like a wave, dare I say tsunami, that may just hit land right along with the Rift's appearance. I know gamer's who have looked at S3D gaming in the past, and quickly panned it, only to find themselves getting swept up in it now. I feel bad that they didn't have the foresight to overlook the rough edges, but I expect they might do just that now.... and be willing to jump on the bandwagon now, seeing how they missed the boat, years back. Maybe not, but these key big names do lend this project a LOT of interest that follows blindly - as we are seeing in recent, ignorant posts. That ground swell may easily be ignored by Palmer right now, due to his lack of free time, but it is only gonna grow. It's all good I guess, but he has been quick to defend himself, when he finds a spare moment to double back on all the fluff. It should all be interesting.

[lnrrgb]

Wow! Did I kill the thread? 6 hours of quiet since my last rambling speculation. Makes me go hmmmmmmm......

(Ok 5 hours... my system clock on this laptop is on double daylight savings)

[cybereality]

You can render 2D with my driver (just set the separation to zero) but I have no idea why you would want to do that. If you keep the 3D to moderately low settings, it doubt it will stress the eyes much more than a 2D image. Just wearing an HMD to begin with (especially something like the Rift) is probably going to stress your eyes out more than any 3D would. I did get to try an early prototype of the Rift and it was pretty intense (in both a good and bad way). Very immersive, but also a little taxing because of the high FOV. I would probably not wear it for more than an hour at a time (same thing I say about the HMZ). I know Palmer has made some improvements, so hopefully the Rift will be better in this regard. Though, in general, wearing an HMD is almost always more taxing on the eyes then any other type of display.

[FingerFlinger]

Well, one reason for me is that 2D is much faster to render, and right now my main computer is a netbook... I need to start looking for a good backtop. In fact, it might be a good idea to keep that other thread updated with recent information about buying a laptop for walk-around use.

[brantlew]

I was just thinking about this today. I don't think it's faster to render 2D if you just set the separation to zero. Both of those frames are still being rendered and the final frame has to wait on them so your FPS rate will be cut in half even in 2D mode. The only way to speed it up would be to take a single rendered frame, copy it to both sides, and post-process warp each side.

(unless there are tricks to keeping a lot of the rendering resources in memory so that a second duplicate frame would render faster)

[rajveer]

(unless there are tricks to keeping a lot of the rendering resources in memory so that a second duplicate frame would render faster)

Na it would be better to do it the first way, if separation is 0 just render once and copy it to both sides, no point in re-rendering the same scene to get the same results. You can post-process before you copy too to avoid processing the same image twice.

[BillRoeske]

It's a valid thought. Assuming we're talking about a 3D environment here and not something like the Windows desktop or a movie, you basically have two choices for 2D mode for a side-by-side display like the RIFT:

1) Render both views from the same camera position. Unsurprisingly, this would run at the same speed as separating the cameras slightly for stereoscopy.
2) Render a single view to a texture and then display it on two quads, one that fills each eye. This would be faster than the first approach since it avoids processing the geometry/fragments/compute programs for the second view at the cost of a small amount of RAM and some code complexity. The extra cost of filling two half-screen-covering quads should be more than paid for by avoiding rendering the second view, assuming we're talking about any remotely recent game. It should also still be faster than the first approach even if the second 3D view was generated via an image-space reprojection of the first view.

This should hold true regardless of the rendering techniques (forward rendering, deferred, ray traced, bizarre hybrid, etc) used.

[FingerFlinger]

Yeah, 2D would be a special case that shortcuts rendering the second view. Otherwise, you'd get no performance benefit.

[PalmerTech]

Replies in bold, TheInevitable!

Anyway, I've read all 50 pages of this thread and every interview I could find, but I still have some questions---

- Would DDD or IZ3D to enable 3D for the Rift work with any game? If not, what are the limitations?
Sort of. They cannot compensate for the warping, and without native support, head tracking will be limited to mouse emulation.

- I've seen some minor complaints about the low resolution in interviews, but is it more or less noticeable than the HMZ-T1?
Definitely more noticeable. It is still a good experience, just don't expect perfection!

- Due to the way the image is distorted pre-HMD and how, when the fish-eye optics compress the image back into normalcy, there are more pixels in the center than on the edges, which is supposed to mimic how the human eye works. However, the display doesn't move with the human eye; it moves around and will be looking at other parts of the screen as well. Would it be a concern that, unless you are looking dead-center, the resolution will look significantly worse than if there is no fish-eye distortion? I'm honestly not aware of how much attention I give the center of the screen vs the sides while gaming, so I'm a little concerned about how it might affect playability.
Things only start to look low res in the far periphery of the display, and the shift is gradual. There is a lot of room for the eye to move around, a wider view than you would get with most monitors.

- Related to the above, how much denser is the pixel density at the center of the screen versus the edges? How much of the viewable area is at a higher pixel density than if there was no distortion? That is, if the Rift's display size is 6", its pixel density is approx 251.6 PPI. What percent of the viewable screen is above that number?
It is not so much that it is compressing the image, perhaps a more accurate way to describe it would be that the distortion stretches the pixels in the periphery to fill a wider FOV. There is no exact area, since the distortion get gradually more and more extreme out to the edge.

- Also, some multiplayer games have a chat box located in the corner of the screen. Because of the lower pixel density combined with the magnification, will the text be still readable without having to have a huge font size?
You might be able to, depending on the normal size and font, but I would not count on it. Ideally you will be playing games with a motion controller or gamepad, anyway, so you probably won't be text chatting.

- How much of the $400-500 cost is the screen?
Depends on how many we buy, and how hard we negotiate with suppliers. Also depends on if the price stays at $400-500.

- The optional film that can be placed on the screen (or was it the lenses?): its supposed to make the individual pixels less noticeable, but how does that affect the sharpness of the image and the quality in general? Does the film have to be applied before shipping or is it one of the things done by the customer? If the latter, can I remove and re-apply it to do comparisons to see whether the effect is something I'd like? If its not easily re-applyable, can I buy more of it?
It can be applied to the screen, and it can be done by anyone who wants to mod it. It will not be applied on the stock unit for a number of reasons (quality tradeoffs, assembly, cost, etc), but people can do it in a way that is either permanent or removable. Will go into detail on how to do so before they get their unit, don't worry.

- What kind of game support does the Hillcrest head tracker have? I'm wondering if it would be better to just go with something like TrackIR that already has a lot of game support. Since I will likely be gaming only in front of my computer with a keyboard and mouse, I don't need 360 degree motion, but I like the idea of having greater freedom of movement with the tracker being on my head and the future game support of it. Does Doom 3 support TrackIR?
TrackIR is expensive, and FreeTrack has been badly hurt compatibility wise by NaturalPoint. The Hillcrest tracker does not have a lot of existing support, but for the best experience, games are going to need native integration anyways, so the existing TrackIR compatibility is not too useful.

- At what distance does your eyes focus at when looking at the display? Is it like the HMZ-T1 where the eyes think the screen is actually far away instead of an inch from your face?
The focus is set a hair under infinity, so yes, it looks far away!
- Can you take a picture of an image as seen through one of the optics and show it to us?
Sure, will try to do so this weekend while I am building a new prototype.

- Since it comes with no manufacturer's warranty, it seems like you could get a 3-year warranty from Square Trade for $85 under the Miscellaneous->Other Electronics category. Would it be possible to get a receipt in case of a warranty claim?
Everyone will have a receipt!
- Will you have a presentation at QuakeCon? Or just John Carmack touting it during one of his events? And as far as the deathmatches hint goes, does that mean its going to be used for the Quick Draw contest this year? I've been going to every QuakeCon since 2000 and I'll look forward to seeing the Rift there! (And I'm hoping I'll get a chance to demo one while there before my own gets sent to me after Aug 19th
Can't say just yet. I know that line is getting old, but when you work with companies, you have to avoid saying things until it is set in stone and approved for the public by everyone involved.
- I know little about Kickstarter. If I give money to your Kickstarter project and the Kickstarter goal is not met, would I still get an Oculus Rift? If not, could I still buy one directly from you?
If the goal is not met, then none of the backers get a Rift. I would make sure that people could buy them some other way, but TBH, the odds of not meeting the Kickstarter goal is very low. Only 100 units need to be sold in order to break even!

So there should be no way to push modern games to that frame rate and sheer pixel fillrate, even if you lower the detail extremely, deactivate v-sync and anti aliasing, use low res textures and so on.

Thanks for the analysis! There are a number of ways to handle this problem, some of which you put out there in your post. There are a few others, like using a dual cable video link (Many HMDs and even several 3D monitors have done this in the past) or rendering a lower resolution and upscaling in hardware to the native res of the headset (For HMDs, the resolution of the source image is not as important as the resolution of the actual panels, since the most important thing is to make the pixel structure as hard to resolve as possible).

i hope the microdisplays from emagin (WUXGA OLED-XL, 1920x1200) http://www.oled-info.com/emagin-awarded ... crodisplay are an option for the oculus rift in the future
http://www.emagin.com/oled-microdisplays/

Unfortunately, they are not a realistic option, at least for what I want to do. They are currently very expensive, and I have doubts about their ability to scale prices to a consumer level even in high volume. Aside from that, using microdisplays is just not the best way to get high FOV, not in this day and age; Optical designers have been trying for literally decades, and there are still problems yet to be solved.

Didn't Carmack in his E3 interviews talk about the importance the render 120 fps for his VR demo?
spyro

Yes, he did. 120 is a huge improvement over 60, but there are simply no panels out there that will do it, and there will not be in the short term future. 60 can work well in the meanwhile, and it is a much easier target right now, rendering wise.

where does that leave things for someone like myself and possibly the people that will be lucky enough to try it at Quakecon and would like their fix now rather than wait a year for a more polished consumer version.
I know it's very early days, but with all these talks to said companies is there likelihood that we will see support for their games sooner than a consumer version?

The idea is to get this out there as soon as possible, and to have developers (Both established and indie) working on content and support for a consumer version down the road. You will find out a lot more when the Kickstarter launches, and while this may be a dev oriented unit, tech savvy enthusiasts will definitely have some fun stuff to use with it. Heck, maybe you will be motivated to try your hand at development yourself!

Carmack recently tweeted:
"I would like to do it, but it might be a tough cost/benefit case to make." in response to a question about making Rage compatible with the Oculus Rift. What? If he can't take the time to make his most recent game compatible, how can we expect other developers to? The cost is time, the benefit is awesomeness.

This is definitely a big problem! It is why I am working with partners who can help make an Oculus SDK, so that integrating support into games is as easy as possible. Currently, everything has to be done from scratch, and making sure a whole game works well is a lot different than optimizing a small demo.

Nothing I said at Engadget was wrong and I still hold to that. I spend a lot of my time in the schematics and FPGA code of microdisplay drivers.

Either way, I think for some people RIFT will be great. Looks like a great experimental platform. People have been trying stuff like that in homebrew for a very long time.
I hope Palmer does well because that will mean better HMD's from everyone else. However, people claiming its the end all of HMD's are just plain wrong. This type of hype and talk is what dooms HMDs when they come out. That's all I'm stressing. I don't mean to be hostile. I'm just giving my opinion like everyone else.

Most of what you said was correct, except for calling the display a cellphone display. It is not, and as far as I know, it has mainly been used in higher end UMPCs that were targeted at business and industrial applications, not any phones. It was designed all the way back in 2007, long before the current smartphone PPI rush, and there are no phones out there with a screen this big (The Galaxy Note comes close, except that it is a pentile display, so the effective pixel density is still not even close). To be honest, I wish it was a more modern cell phone display, better color accuracy and pixel switching times would be welcome!

I totally agree that people need to temper their expectations, and I have said a lot of times that overhyping this and acting like it is superior in all ways to current HMDs is counterproductive in the long term, so we are on the same page there. I think you will be happy with the Kickstarter video, it stresses VERY heavily that this is a specialized headset that is focused at developers, not consumers who want to plug into the Matrix.

Now I know it's going to sound really stupid asking this question this late in the game, but how exactly does the Rift connect to the computer?

USB for tracking and power, DVI for video input. It will come with a small, unpowered cable adapter that will allow HDMI use, as well.

Or follow Road to VR's twitter. He seems to be watching this like a hawk as well, and will most likely post as soon as it goes live.

http://www.roadtovr.com/

I will be sending back an interview RoadToVR sent me before the Kickstarter launch, so he will be a good place to check. I will be posting on the forums at least 48 hours before launch, so really, nobody stress too much. I want MTBS3D members to be the first people to know.

How long is "a little bit more?"

The best thing for me to do is to avoid giving a precise date, it looks like. When I have given dates in the past, they have truly been my best estimates, but things keep changing. One thing is for sure, though: The Kickstarter needs to be up before QuakeCon, and that will happen.

I was so all geared up to get HMD in gaming with the oculus.

Sadly, the first fact that was approvable for us - "the kickstarter date" - was disappointing. Luckey, please don't make up stories to get us reading your posts... Your credibility is not strengthened by naming a few names of the industry, where you got an (i begrudge) appointment. Please give us facts, we don't want to read about another Duke-Nukem-HMD-Myth.

If it turns out to never reach the market, would I stop reading your "blog"? In any case: Don't mind - there are many words to describe internet hypes. Boring isnt one of them

I am not making up "stories". I don't care what you think about my credibility, there are reasons I cannot just give you all of the facts; They are not my facts to give. Why in the world would someone like me risk their job and reputation by making up BS just so that people will read my "Blog" (Perhaps you mean forum posts?)

To contrast this, in my mind his behavior basically nullifies any thought of me *pre-kickstartering* this project (not to mention he's requesting that people use the *gift* paypal method, something that negates any refund ability on the part of paypal). Hell, it makes me reconsider even investing at all. $500 isn't really chump change for most people and in light of many kickstarter projects of similar pedigree (ie. Some random dude in his basement) ala http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zio ... lasses-for how it's been handled so far doesn't really boost confidence.

All I'm saying is so far any dates mentioned so far have not been hit and those have just been to release info! What makes anybody so sure he can even deliver on a physical product? A physical product we've barely seen, and has only been shown to a select few. All I'm saying is one should be cautious of this whole project. I'm incredibly excited for what this represents but I'm just as wary.

I never requested people gift it specifically because I wanted people to have the ability to get a refund. Problem is, Paypal does not allow you to use it for product pre-orders. If you read through the thread, you will see that I next tried to use their gift certificate system (In which the money is not transferred till after buying the product), but their system does not allow you to send a certificate to your own Paypal account). As for being a "random dude in his basement"; I have been working as an engineer at a military research center until very recently, when I had to leave so I could pursue this. I have been posting about my projects on this forum for years, sent prototypes out to forum members for feedback, and shown my projects to many hundreds of people. One of my HMDs was used in a popular Sundance Film Festival project, and another HMD project I was a lead on was not only viewed by hundreds, we actually gave out more than 100 to the VR research community! You are right to be concerned, but I have more of a reputation on the line than you seem to know, which makes sense, I don't usually mention it. Also, I don't know why you would judge an entire community based on two people who said things that upset you, especially to the point where you feel that your account should be deleted.

So right now http://www.oculusvr.com is down and showing a page saying that it was recently transferred to namecheap.com, which means that PalmerTech and the Oculus Rift has probably been acquired.

I have been having nameserver issues since the start, and fixing them has proven difficult, possibly related to the fact that I am running oculusvr.com off a hosting reseller package that I use for a large number of domains that all share the same server. I am switching over to a new hosting service, so don't worry, I have not been bought out by anyone. This is one of the reasons I had to delay, launching the Kickstarter with a site that does not always function correctly and crashes under high load is a bad idea.

So just wondering if it would be a simple thing to get a 2D image on the RIFT so there is no 3D effect in 3D games (so nothing to do with being able to use the RIFT on the Windows Desktop or with other 2D software) like just displaying the left image on both sides or would you would still need to do a whole new driver or other software solution for it?

It would be trivially easy.

As far as the Kickstarter date, we at least know that it will be before Quake Con, so next week seems pretty likely.

In fact, I think Palmer is trying to get more demo units ready by then; between that and meeting with industry big-wigs, he must be SWAMPED.

You hit a big part of the nail on the head! All the demo units have to be built by hand, and people keep wanting their own units for development. I am building more whenever I have spare time, but at the moment, I only have a single unit for myself. All the rest are on loan to people! It is not a huge number or anything, but each one takes a few hours to get just right.

Making another post...

[PalmerTech]

Good news and bad news:

Bad news: I cannot show you the renders just yet. Not my choice, and I have to respect the choice of the person who decided that. This might be my project, but that does not mean I can disregard the wishes of other people who are involved.

Good news: I can at least show one of the more recent prototypes I used to film the new Kickstarter video! It looks a bit beat up, and it was; the video was filmed all the way up near San Francisco, and then it rattled around in the back of a car the whole (400 mile) drive there. Have to make sure to fully close those carry cases!



More pictures to come over the next few days, including ones that show it being used, hooked up to a computer and external monitor.

[andrewe1]

Looks smaller than I expected!

Have you considered a foamy clip on like the one used in the virtual boy? it was easily cleanable and blocked out all the light!

[PalmerTech]

Glad you think so! This is actually one of the bigger prototypes, I can cut away a lot of the edges on the lens side. Reduces the total volume by perhaps 30%.

I am going through a lot of light blocking setups, for the Kickstarter, I glued on some simple blinders. I like foam ones like the virtual boy, but other designs have merits too, on both ends. Tiny eyecups are lightweight and don't press on your whole face, but large light blockers can function as an effective physical HMD/face interface.

[Krisper]

Looks fantastic, like everyone else here I can't wait to get my hands on one of these. I don't care what it looks like on the outside, in fact if it is impressive when looking through the lenses, then making it look home made on the outside will add to the appeal imo.

I know you've probably had a million offers of help, but I have access to some good servers and would be happy to host and maintain oculusvr.com for you.

[brantlew]

Looks good to me! So glad you worked out a mounting solution. So the whole box swings upwards away from the face? That's a great idea. Is the tracker contained within the box? Also does the wiring come out of the top and then potentially over the head? I can't help it...I'm already making structural design plans in my head

[PalmerTech]

Will keep your offer in mind, Krisper!

Brantlew, at least on this mount (And it is not the final design, I must stress this!), you can flip the whole thing up. It also allows for forward/back/up/down/tilt adjustments so that it can fit any face. The wiring does indeed come out the top, and then goes over the head. You can see the cable clips on the top and rear band, keeps the cables secure.

[pilzbefall]

thanks for all the answers!! for me a small size of the HMD isn´t important (i am acustomed to sit in front of the monitor like a clown with trackir-cap & monstre-hifi-headphones to play still Arma2 and IL2-Cliffs of Dover) I hope it is fully headmounted and NOT as "nosemounted" as the HMZ-T1 or the ST1080. Your mounting solution seems to be perfect.

greetings from germany

[Mark7]

thanks for the update. Its a good thing to know that you post here 48h bevor the Kickstarter will launch. No more need to get up ervery night at 3am to check what I'm missing
greetings from Austria

[Flim]

Thanks for the input as well Palmer...

I like to mod things myself, you think we can easily upgrade this design when new higher res screens are avialable?

It seems you need a 3d plotter to make a prototype casing!

[spyro]

Hi Palmer,

thanks for the update. I like the option to fold the hole display up.
Will the final design have some light-blocking, soft isolation on the sides (like J. Carmack's prototype taped on a sky goggle) or like the Virtual Boy?



Not that big, of course. More like the isolation at diving glasses, maybe?

spyro

[Nick3DvB]

I was going to try and mod a cheap iTheatre mask:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251049246477? ... 1423.l2649

or maybe just attack a block of med density neoprene foam with a bread knife...

[andrewe1]

Hi Palmer,

thanks for the update. I like the option to fold the hole display up.
Will the final design have some light-blocking, soft isolation on the sides (like J. Carmack's prototype taped on a sky goggle) or like the Virtual Boy?



Not that big, of course. More like the isolation at diving glasses, maybe?

spyro

Read the second post after the one where he posted the pic ....

[cybereality]

Well this is a DIY kit, so people can add their own light-blockers if they want. Shouldn't be too hard.

[EdZ]

The successor of the Rift will have "more pixels than 1080p per eye" according to Mr. Palmer. So let's estimate - say - 2560x1600. This would be 2560 x 1600 x 2 x 120 = 983.040.000 pixels/sec. - that's 8 times more than with 1080p@60 and AFAIK twice the maximum numbers even Display Port 1.2 can handle! Even with a Quad-SLI-System and a linear performance progression you will only get half the frame rate than you would get at 1080@60!

So there should be no way to push modern games to that frame rate and sheer pixel fillrate, even if you lower the detail extremely, deactivate v-sync and anti aliasing, use low res textures and so on.

Recent games can be played at fairly high detail settings on multi-monitor setups, e.g. 3 1920x1200 displays with current GPUs. Pushing 1920x1200 per eye at 60fps (or 2560x1600 per, which is only a 20% increase in area over the 3x 1920x1200 scenario) doesn't seem unreasonable. Here is an example of a recent GPU (GTX 680) running a reasonable recent game (Just Cause 2) on high settings at 60fps.

I do agree that if the resolution were to be significantly above this, and with the overhead (depending on how it's implemented) of the warping to fit the RIFT's optics, 120fps would be an issue without severely lowering settings.

<pie-in-the-sky speculation>
It would be interesting to know if Nvidia/AMD could modify their SSAA algorithms to work only on a central/foveal area of the screen (or, looking at it from a native resolution point of view, sub-sample the peripheral area), so as to render the centre of the screen at native resolution and the surrounding area at 1/4 that (1/2h x 1/2v). If you wanted to be extra fancy, adding eye-tracking to the RIFT by hiding some cameras in there would allow the foveal high-detail area to be shifted to always stay centred with respect to the eye.
You could do other tricks with eye tracking too, like gaze-selection of UI elements, or dynamic depth-of field blurring (you look at an object, it will come into focus). All of this would require heavy integration with game engines though, so unless a single generic specification for eye-tracking were developed and enforced it's doubtful anyone would actually adopt and implement it.
</pie-in-the-sky speculation>

[3dvison]

Add another +1 for the flip-up display.
Seems it would make the switching back and forth of viewing on the RIFT and taking a peek at your 2D display when necessary, a whole lot easier.

[ccanalesShaderMedia]

Hi Palmer (and everyone),

We are software developers. We are very excited with your project and we want support you in all the way. We have a lot of projects that can take a next step with your HMD.
We develop with Unity3D the most of our projects, and I think that it can be easely adapted to Oculus needs.

We have experience with VR and 3D. We have develop a low cost "3D WALL" using projectors and Kinects. And is in this point where we can imagine very nice system integrating Oculus + Kinect.
We can imagine a system where no need to use gamepads or controllers. Just your skeleton, without marks. And voice commands. This is not something new, but the conjunction of a HighFOV HMD under $500 and Kinect under $200 it can be amazing and noticiable.
Obviously, we have to develop games and software almost from scratch, and it will be hard but I can't wait to test it.

In order to ask you something that I haven't read in the posts: what about the fixing system to the head? For example with others HMD like HMZ-T1, try to play a car simulator with forcefeedback controller can be hard. The tremor of forcefeedback shakes the hmd too much through the arms. have you been notice about it? I think a good fixing system can fix it. I'm glad in your last picture we can see two points fixation system. Can you talk us about it?

You can see some of our projects here:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPXCPc-todw[/youtube]

and here in a 3D video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln99x1RHxV0[/youtube]


Please, take our post as real intention of support and developing for your system.

To the other members: I have been a Lurker for years. I want to change it from now and participate actively in this amazing forum.

Carles Canales
Shader Media

[Endothermic]

I think there was talk about using the Kinect earlier in the thread which had the whole Kinect latency issue come up.

I noticed in your video you can still notice the latency at parts so have you done any work since then to reduce the latency of kinect, and if so how?

[ccanalesShaderMedia]

I think there was talk about using the Kinect earlier in the thread which had the whole Kinect latency issue come up.

I noticed in your video you can still notice the latency at parts so have you done any work since then to reduce the latency of kinect, and if so how?

You're right. The latency it a hard problem to face in Kinect.
In our holoPortal we have already achieved an acceptable response using the last Microsoft SDK and using multiples computers (cluster). two computers to read kinect's data (we use 3 kinects now, Windows edition), one computer to process these data (smooth, anti jitter and other), and one more computer to rendering. Of course, we have develop all the software and it works fine. This allow track the same skeleton from multiples kinects and gain precision.

We all know that this system will never work like an Optitrack (or similar) in precision and latency. But the result it is more than acceptable, with low cost. Notice that our holoPortal is under 7.000$. obviously it isn't for general public yet. but it allows to small and medium enterprises get near to VR and 3D.

If you are interested in kinect's latency problem I can tell you more. I don't wanna be bored with more details. I can record a video to show you our "last" latency if you want. In very fast movements is a little bit annoying, but you will see that it works fine for major purposes.

Anyway, when I talk about using kinect with HMD is "using skeleton as game controller". Perhaps the head position can be well tracked by kinect too with some custom algorithm. It's enough for major uses. But I have no confidence in tracking tilt, yaw and pitch. For this it will be necessary add other system.

With all, I just want have an Oculus in my hands to test it and clear doubts about the conjunction with kinect.

[petersmc]

Yeah, I read on the intraweb that kinect has something like 60ms latency at the kinect hardware side. If true, then it is good for proof of concept, but will detract strongly from the overall experience. Leep Motion looks more promising in my view.

[TheRealistWord]

Yeah, I read on the intraweb that kinect has something like 60ms latency at the kinect hardware side. If true, then it is good for proof of concept, but will detract strongly from the overall experience. Leep Motion looks more promising in my view.

I also suggested a couple pages back that the Leap would probably be well suited for tracking with the Rift, but my major concern is the very limited scanning area. It detects within a region of 8 cubic feet, so probably 2x2x2 or somewhere along those lines. If positioned correctly, it'd be great for tracking your hands and such, but full body tracking with the Leap seems like it'd take a bit of tinkering with connecting multiple leaps and calibrating them all (I read somewhere you CAN actually chain Multiple Leaps together). But Leap Motion's focus seems to be on the hands, so I'm assuming a dev would actually have to write all the code and set up the Leap for tracking other body parts/more than the hands.

Personally, I just couldn't ever get past the latency in the Kinect. It completely ruined the experience for me. Instead of my onscreen avatar being a direct clone of me, it felt like we were playing a round "monkey see, monkey do" and he was struggling to keep up with me. Felt detached from the game guess it's just a personal annoyance, because it still sold incredibly well and people love it. And if rumors are anything to go by, Kinect V2 should be out in the next year and a half or so.

I love seeing this talk of integrating the Rift with existing technologies!!

[EdZ]

In order to ask you something that I haven't read in the posts: what about the fixing system to the head? For example with others HMD like HMZ-T1, try to play a car simulator with forcefeedback controller can be hard. The tremor of forcefeedback shakes the hmd too much through the arms. have you been notice about it? I think a good fixing system can fix it. I'm glad in your last picture we can see two points fixation system. Can you talk us about it?

The head-mount with the flip-up appears identical to ones commonly used for NVGs. If a standardised connector is used, that means that in addition to the strap shown, other NVG straps or mounting methods (e.g. bolt-on helmet mount) could be swapped out to preference.

[LeeN]

Despite the latency ccanalesShaderMedia, your demo is very impressive!

@TheRealistWord, according to the verge article on the leap, the only thing limiting the leap is the sensors they use. They want the leap to be inexpensive so they use lower end sensors. And they threw some numbers like 33 to 300 feet with the right kind of sensors. I've also read that the only difference between the leap and the Kinect is purely software, which they say uses patented technology and some powerful mathematics maybe this software will be usable by other hardware (one way or another).

[PatimPatam]

From the demos and articles i've read Leap's latency seems to be almost non-existent, I would be surprised they can achieve that only with software!

I also think the Leap would be a perfect match with an HMD like the Rift, I can easily imagine controlling games sitting comfortably on a chair or sofa and using my left hand for turning / movement and my right hand for shooting / sword-fighting or simply interacting with objects.

Personally not so interested in full body tracking for games, even if you could eliminate the latency issue I don't think it would work so well; unless you could use it in a full environment like a hangar or something mapped to a virtual world, as someone suggested earlier in this forum. That would be really cool but only practical for amusement parks and such.

[Flim]

So, if I decided to show up at quakcon... then will there be a demo rift unit available to play with?

[LeeN]

If I'm not mistaken I think Sixense is in Washington! Maybe they've improved the hydra and the Rift will get a new kind of acurate head tracking?

[Myuria]

Sorry, am I missing something? I thought part of the whole Rift story was that Carmack was doing a proprietary tracker that had much-improved latency, claiming that the lack of rapid motion detection was one of the key issues holding back immersion in VR (in addition to insufficient FOV).

[FingerFlinger]

Myuria, I think you are referring to the HillCrest headtracker that will be available for the Rift. The discussion of the Leap sensor and Kinect is primarily regarding the tracking of the user's body. Possibly mounting the sensor on the HMD and tracking the user's arms and hands.

[cybereality]

@Myuria: The Rift kit will be using a tracker from Hillcrest Labs. You can buy this now, its available ( http://www.hillcrestlabs-devstore.com/s ... h-2/Detail ). However Carmack got them to burn a custom firmware that doubled to update rate. Currently it does 125Hz, the new one does 250Hz. I have the normal one I've been testing with, and even then its OK. There is some latency, but its not that bad. Of course doubling the refresh is great, but as-is its not a bad tracker. Hopefully Palmer can work out a deal so that we can get the new firmware with the Rift bundle, but no one has confirmed this.

[Myuria]

Thanks guys, the clarification is appreciated. ^^

[notmuchpastnothing]

I do have some confusion about the Hillcrest tracker myself. Is it capable of 6 degrees of freedom or only 3? I know Carmack was only able to get 3 (orientation) working in Doom 3 BFG, but is that because the tracker wasn't capable of the other 3 (positioning) or he just wasn't able to integrate it for some reason?

[brantlew]

@notmuchpastnothing: In theory, all inertial trackers in this category are capable of 6 degrees of freedom. In practice however the noise errors when calculating position are so large (meters per second) that they are useless for X,Y,Z coordinates. Not just Hillcrest, but all of these types of devices.

[notmuchpastnothing]

@brantlew: So even though the website or marketing claims "six-axis motion control solution" positioning should pretty much be written off for our purposes. Seems like positioning is still a bit of a holy grail for consumer affordable systems.

Thanks for the clarity brantlew!

[coresnake]

Well, by the time the Rift 2 launches, presumably the Xbox720 will be out already which means Kinect 2.0 and somewhere around twice the body tracking accuracy will be available. (Rumors state that there will be a processing core on the Xbox dedicated entirely to the Kinect 2.0, which means better native tracking software can be developed too).

[notmuchpastnothing]

@coresnake: While I'm most certainly interested in body tracking for some applications, I would put accurate head tracking positioning above that. Carmack is always talking about the millimeter micro head movements which aid in depth and immersion. Do you think the new kinect will be able to head track accurately? There is also the issue of latency too, of course.

[FingerFlinger]

At the moment, I believe that the highest performance head tracking solution is optical with markers, in terms of latency and accuracy. Optical solutions impose some restrictions though; you must have line of sight and (for 360 degree use) need to eliminate occlusion, usually with multiple cameras. Also, you lose accuracy proportionally with the user's distance from the cameras.

Other solutions, such as magnetic/inertial tracking make a walk-around rig much simpler to implement, and make free-ranging back top systems, like Brant's FriiSpace , possible.

[brantlew]

I don't have one yet, but many people swear that the Hydra offers a great solution for positional tracking. Carmack offered a slightly less enthusiastic endorsement but he's a real tough customer to please. I think it could probably work pretty well most of the time for many people. The biggest problem with the Hydra is the lack of wireless so it restricts your ability to spin in a circle.

I agree with Finger though that optical is the way to go for simple, cheap, high performance tracking. Unfortunately the consumer products out there (ie. TrackIR) offer a very limited range of motion. In theory you could set up multiple cameras (or multiple environmental markers) and have high precision 360 motion - but for some reason nobody has really implemented it yet (at least not outside of the research/hobbyist community that I am aware of). So that's the state of things. Everyone knows how to do it "sort of" but nobody has charged forward and really done it and made it available yet.

[WiredEarp]

At the moment, I believe that the highest performance head tracking solution is optical with markers, in terms of latency and accuracy.

I get quite frustrated with my TrackIR sometimes. You really have to set it up correctly, as it can have issues if two of the LED's its tracking get too close to each other (it can't work out which one to follow) which can be a PITA when doing head turns of 30 degrees plus. Also, the TrackClipPro doesn't have an amazing viewing angle of the LED's. I think the Hydra is a better bet for things like gun/hand sensors. The jury is still out on whether it will be ok for head tracking (not sure about the latency).

I agree with Brantlew that optical seems the best for cheap performance tracking, and its just that the solutions out there don't support multiple cameras that is the problem.
I actually raised this question previously with regards to FreeTrack - IMHO, it should be possible to hack in multiple cameras or sensors. For example, using 3 cameras @ 120 degrees around the user, you could have a system where when turning, and when the sensor approaches the edge of the camera detection, you should be able to 'hand off' to the next camera (recalibrate the next camera to the last position sensed by the first camera) fairly seamlessly. I think this, or a camera on head + multiple tracking markers for coverage system, will be necessary to have the reliability we require for glitch free head tracking.

[EdZ]

The Hillcrest tracker does offer 6DoF, Carmack was simply only using 3 in the demo as he had not yet implemented a system for shifting the viewpoint in the engine.

[nrp]

The Hillcrest tracker does offer 6DoF, Carmack was simply only using 3 in the demo as he had not yet implemented a system for shifting the viewpoint in the engine.

Any positioning would have to be through dead reckoning. That is good enough for additional heuristics for triggering programmed maneuvers like leaning or ducking, but the error would be too significant to use it for absolute movement and possibly even too much for relative movement.

[coresnake]

@coresnake: While I'm most certainly interested in body tracking for some applications, I would put accurate head tracking positioning above that. Carmack is always talking about the millimeter micro head movements which aid in depth and immersion. Do you think the new kinect will be able to head track accurately?

Sorry I wasn't clear, I never meant to imply it would be enough for head tracking, I was referring to other-than-head controls such as 1:1 avatar display or for 'reaching for objects' in the game world etc. Basically alleviating the need for using a controller.

[profvr]

The Hillcrest tracker does offer 6DoF, Carmack was simply only using 3 in the demo as he had not yet implemented a system for shifting the viewpoint in the engine.

Any positioning would have to be through dead reckoning. That is good enough for additional heuristics for triggering programmed maneuvers like leaning or ducking, but the error would be too significant to use it for absolute movement and possibly even too much for relative movement.

I can confirm that, we've used Hillcrest in a HMD demo for over six months and the accelerometer isn't good enough to integrate to get an absolute position that's of use for very long. You can make assumptions such as the person is standing for most of the time, etc. but lateral drift will occur. We aren't building games, but you might use it for gesture recognition to enable pre-canned animations such as stoop.

Note when you mount an IMU on something like a HMD, acceleration is confounded by rotational moment caused by the fact the sensor will not be fixed at the center of rotation of the head. In fact, this is one of the main ways that prior HMDs/HMD demos have failed to impressive (by causing side-effects!) - no compensation for rotation center is made in the integration of tracking information, and they can't completely disambiguate turns from movements. I hope that Palmer/John Carmack have looked at this, if not then there's something for someone to work on straight away ...

[EdZ]

This falls into Sensor Fusion Madness territory, but could the fast relative position of the Hillcrest be combined with a 'laggey' optical absolute positiing system (e.g Kinect, PS3eye with optical markers), such that periodically (or whenever the relative sensor is reading mininal motion) the optical sensor is polled to correct for drift? You get the best of both worlds, but you'd still need to calibrate the two disparate together (a pain) and I can't imagine there is an off the shelf solution to do this even with OpenCV.

[WiredEarp]

could the fast relative position of the Hillcrest be combined with a 'laggey' optical absolute positiing system

EdZ, I think this should is a good idea. In fact, it may even be possible to do dynamic calibration using this method. For example, You could have a gyro/optical system that used the gyro stream for positioning, but would correct it with recalibrations whenever the pickup LEDs were in view. Sort of like if you combined a FreeTrack setup with the gyro output. A system like this may well be the best candidate for large scale, lower cost motion VR setups (stage/warehouses) since you could probably get away with a much simpler system than the mega expensive optical tracking solutions that currently exist.

@ profvr: IIRC, John Carmack mentioned something somewhere about correcting for the rotational centre of the HMD.

[profvr]

could the fast relative position of the Hillcrest be combined with a 'laggey' optical absolute positiing system

EdZ, I think this should is a good idea. In fact, it may even be possible to do dynamic calibration using this method. For example, You could have a gyro/optical system that used the gyro stream for positioning, but would correct it with recalibrations whenever the pickup LEDs were in view. Sort of like if you combined a FreeTrack setup with the gyro output. A system like this may well be the best candidate for large scale, lower cost motion VR setups (stage/warehouses) since you could probably get away with a much simpler system than the mega expensive optical tracking solutions that currently exist.

Definitely this could be done. PlayStation Move would be the most obvious way forward as it gives you reasonable 3D point, rather than Kinect where you would need to infer the mounting point of the sensor from the gross position of the head.

@ profvr: IIRC, John Carmack mentioned something somewhere about correcting for the rotational centre of the HMD.

I shouldn't have doubted. But the Occulus flips-up so there will be limits to a static calibration - one of the reasons various high-end HMDs don't allow this (on a flexible HMD you either mount the tracker on the rigid part of the head and don't know where the screen is, or you mount it on the optical housing, in which case you know less about where the head center could be).

[coresnake]

Well, the difference is that with Kinect you have an official PC SDK, and also you don't have to carry around a plastic lollipop while you play

[ccanalesShaderMedia]

I want to remark one thing about use Leap instead use Kinect. Somebody (I don't remember who) said "leap has minor latency than kinect". I don't know too much about leap, but I know something about kinect.
kinect has latency when it's detecting a skeleton (user's body), but it hasn't (or very low in fact) when it's reading the depth map. This is because when it detects a user, there are related complex algorithms reading the depth map, matching with a body pattern, positioning joints and so. When it just reads the depth map there aren't many algorithms.
At this point, I understand that leap just reads depth map. That's why leap has minor latency, roughly.

[PatimPatam]

Sorry when I made my comment before about the Leap I assumed the head tracking and positioning problem was pretty much sorted with the Hillcrest. If it's not then I agree it should be the first thing to try and fix.

If what ShaderMedia says it's true and the latency to get both the depth map and the rgb image is really low, then Kinect could be an option.. Perhaps simply attaching a few leds (or brigth color stickers) to the Rift could help!

[brantlew]

Just FYI: There's a whole thread devoted to 6DOF tracking where a lot of this info can be found.

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=15040

[petersmc]

I want to remark one thing about use Leap instead use Kinect. Somebody (I don't remember who) said "leap has minor latency than kinect". I don't know too much about leap, but I know something about kinect.
kinect has latency when it's detecting a skeleton (user's body), but it hasn't (or very low in fact) when it's reading the depth map. This is because when it detects a user, there are related complex algorithms reading the depth map, matching with a body pattern, positioning joints and so. When it just reads the depth map there aren't many algorithms.
At this point, I understand that leap just reads depth map. That's why leap has minor latency, roughly.

@ccanalesShaderMedia - is the skeletal mapping done on the kiniect'S hardware? From what I read, it is. Assuming it is, have you or your team attempted to frig the kinect hardware? what i am really asking is: is it reasonable to consider dropping better processors into the kinect to improve the skeletal tracking latency?

[hast]

@ccanalesShaderMedia - is the skeletal mapping done on the kiniect'S hardware? From what I read, it is. Assuming it is, have you or your team attempted to frig the kinect hardware? what i am really asking is: is it reasonable to consider dropping better processors into the kinect to improve the skeletal tracking latency?

AFAIK (I'm not whom your replying to) the Kinect only gives you two video streams, one RGB and one depth map. These are then used by software to do body detection.

There are open source libraries which can interface with the Kinect. And there are open source skeletal trackers which can work on top of those libraries. (Take a look at this [url http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/03/ ... ng-library]ArsTechnica article[/url] for an overview and a bunch of links.)

I believe that the skeletal tracking in Kinect uses a combination of different techniques. First it tries to detect different body parts and then it "wires them together" to form the skeletal model. (I'm not sure if that is the way the Microsoft libraries work or just the open source libraries though.) Most likely those different parts take time and that causes a lot of the delay. A high end PC might be able to do the work a lot faster than a 360.

My guess is that a good VR system would need to use multiple detectors at least to start. So you might use the on device gyro etc combined with a IRTracker like system to track the head with low latency. And then combine with higher latency full body detection. Possibly throw in a Move controller on a gun mount to get weapon movement. But that's quite a lot of stuff to run all at once. (But again, most modern gaming PCs have a lot of extra cores idling.)

[rmcclelland]

This quote from John Carmack (eurogamer interview) sums up what has me excited about this project:

"Really, all we've been doing in first-person shooters since I started is trying to make virtual reality. Really that's what we're doing with the tools we've got available. The whole difference between a game where you're directing people around and an FPS is, we're projecting you into the world to make that intensity, that sense of being there and having the world around you."

Its the same thing I was excited about with Wolfenstein, all those years ago.