HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

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bo3bber
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HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by bo3bber »

For people who have HelixVision, please try out the latest beta.

Under the Beta tab, you can find beta_driver, which is an early look at some changes we are making to allow you to use any driver version that you want, including the latest version.

This is not well tested at all, and is sure to be glitchy and buggy, but for people who enjoy experimenting, please take a look and give us feedback and bug reports.

Our hope is that this approach resolves the recommendation for the old driver, or older Windows.


Lightly tested with Win10 1903, and driver 442.19. DCH version. DCH is still going to be discouraged, because when 3D is on, you get a 3 second pause at every exe launch, but it works.


The approach is to have a special 3Dmigoto build, which knows how to load the nvidia video driver out of the game directory, so that we will no longer need to modify the driver system wide. Then a Schwing hacked driver is copied to the game directory and when the game is launched it loads from there.

This is only done for DX11 games.

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by whyme466 »

Windows 10 v2004, DCH driver 446.14 - encountered two errors:
1. 3D Fix Manager reported "Error: 3dmigoto could not be updated"
2. Katanga encountered Fatal Error, stating "Exception: Could not load …/Katanga_Data/Plugins/GamePlugin64.dll: 0x80004005"

I did not realize my graphics driver had switched to DCH version. Do you want me to try with Standard driver?

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by bo3bber »

whyme466 wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:09 am
Windows 10 v2004, DCH driver 446.14 - encountered two errors:
1. 3D Fix Manager reported "Error: 3dmigoto could not be updated"
2. Katanga encountered Fatal Error, stating "Exception: Could not load …/Katanga_Data/Plugins/GamePlugin64.dll: 0x80004005"

I did not realize my graphics driver had switched to DCH version. Do you want me to try with Standard driver?
Thanks for the report. Keep trying different stuff. Different games, and multiple tries.

I sometimes get that 80004005 error even today, it's a one-off error that I'm not sure why it happens, but I think is unrelated to the driver override mechanism.

3Dmigoto could not be updated- I'm also not sure. I saw this once before, but already put in a fix for the problem I'd seen. What game?


For DCH, it's OK to try that, because we know some people will get forced onto it by Microsoft. Microsoft 'conveniently' allows you to switch to DCH at any time, without putting up the 'incompatible' error, but if you try to go back, voila... it's an incompatible driver.

You'll have better luck in general with standard driver, we've got more testing on it, and also do not have that 3 second stall problem when 3D is enabled. With this HelixVision, it will be viable though, because it can auto-disable 3D after exiting games.
Last edited by bo3bber on Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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helifax
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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by helifax »

While I haven't tested this branch yet (been focusing on my Vulkan wrapper lately), I can vouch for the DCH driver requirement!
On my laptop I can't install any Standard driver as it doesn't detect the RTX 2080 in my Alienware Area 51m laptop. Even the latest Standard driver will not install, because "No compatible GPU detected". Yes, I use DDU every single time when upgrading drivers!
I think Nvidia simply didn't add the GUID of this GPU in the Standard Driver list :(

If we have a solution for DCH (which we do and works perfectly fine, in my case) I would ask, please, don't discard it ^_^

Many thanks,
Helifax
http://3dsurroundgaming.com:
- Home of OGL3DVision & Vk3DVision wrappers - Play your favourite OpenGL & Vulkan games in Stereoscopic 3D using Nvidia 3D Vision OR Virtual Reality using HelixVision(https://store.steampowered.com/app/1127310/HelixVision/)
- Home of some of my UHD Surround/Eyefinity/21:9/32:9 Fixes. (Or you can always check http://pcgamingwiki.com/)

Want to contribute to the development of Vk3DVision? You can check my Patreon Page for the project: https://www.patreon.com/Vk3DVision. If you still like my project but don't want to contribute monthly you can always send me a PayPal: tavyhomeppal@hotmail.com.

You can always follow me on Twitter: @OctavianVasilov

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by bo3bber »

helifax wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:44 pm
While I haven't tested this branch yet (been focusing on my Vulkan wrapper lately), I can vouch for the DCH driver requirement!
On my laptop I can't install any Standard driver as it doesn't detect the RTX 2080 in my Alienware Area 51m laptop. Even the latest Standard driver will not install, because "No compatible GPU detected". Yes, I use DDU every single time when upgrading drivers!
I think Nvidia simply didn't add the GUID of this GPU in the Standard Driver list :(

If we have a solution for DCH (which we do and works perfectly fine, in my case) I would ask, please, don't discard it ^_^

Many thanks,
Helifax
Sounds good. Don't rock the boat in the middle of development, but when you get a chance, this version will be worth trying on your laptop. The theory is that it is as simple as using any driver you want, and just launch out of HelixVision to auto-update the game to working.

It works fine with DCH driver, with the only caveat being that 3 second delay for launches, whenever 3D is turned on. Otherwise this is nearly ideal, because when 3D is off, there is no difference, the system driver is in use.

We'll definitely need to keep this for HelixVision, because NVidia is also part of the oligopoly, and the default driver downloads are all DCH with no identification, or notice that others are available. So normal VR people are going to get a DCH driver, and we need to support their setup.

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by helifax »

bo3bber wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:52 pm
helifax wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:44 pm
While I haven't tested this branch yet (been focusing on my Vulkan wrapper lately), I can vouch for the DCH driver requirement!
On my laptop I can't install any Standard driver as it doesn't detect the RTX 2080 in my Alienware Area 51m laptop. Even the latest Standard driver will not install, because "No compatible GPU detected". Yes, I use DDU every single time when upgrading drivers!
I think Nvidia simply didn't add the GUID of this GPU in the Standard Driver list :(

If we have a solution for DCH (which we do and works perfectly fine, in my case) I would ask, please, don't discard it ^_^

Many thanks,
Helifax
Sounds good. Don't rock the boat in the middle of development, but when you get a chance, this version will be worth trying on your laptop. The theory is that it is as simple as using any driver you want, and just launch out of HelixVision to auto-update the game to working.

It works fine with DCH driver, with the only caveat being that 3 second delay for launches, whenever 3D is turned on. Otherwise this is nearly ideal, because when 3D is off, there is no difference, the system driver is in use.

We'll definitely need to keep this for HelixVision, because NVidia is also part of the oligopoly, and the default driver downloads are all DCH with no identification, or notice that others are available. So normal VR people are going to get a DCH driver, and we need to support their setup.
:!:
Will definitely try it tomorrow! (Now that I am in a stable place with the Vulkan wrapper - and I don't have to remember anything "to-do for the next day", I can definitely try this! This, will leave my "developer - hacker zone" desktop alone ^_^).
But yeah, I am a bit disappointed (to say the least) about nV "forcing" DCH drivers on us (basically all the "public" links are DCH drivers - you need to dig to find the "older, standard" driver :( And even those don't "always"™ work.)

Using 3D Surround, the 3 seconds (more like 1 minute for 3D Surround) delay from switching in 3D from 2D was always "normal" for me! (When using DVI to DP active adaptors). Now being "only 3 seconds" I don't even notice it :D
This was one major reason why I disassembled my 3D Surround and went on using a single 32:9 2D display. Now, comparing, I think 48:9 (Surround of 3x 16:9 monitors) was an overkill. 32:9 is MORE than enough to get the full image in your physical field of view!

Many thanks for this!
Cheers,
Helifax
http://3dsurroundgaming.com:
- Home of OGL3DVision & Vk3DVision wrappers - Play your favourite OpenGL & Vulkan games in Stereoscopic 3D using Nvidia 3D Vision OR Virtual Reality using HelixVision(https://store.steampowered.com/app/1127310/HelixVision/)
- Home of some of my UHD Surround/Eyefinity/21:9/32:9 Fixes. (Or you can always check http://pcgamingwiki.com/)

Want to contribute to the development of Vk3DVision? You can check my Patreon Page for the project: https://www.patreon.com/Vk3DVision. If you still like my project but don't want to contribute monthly you can always send me a PayPal: tavyhomeppal@hotmail.com.

You can always follow me on Twitter: @OctavianVasilov

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by whyme466 »

bo3bber wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:45 am
3Dmigoto could not be updated- I'm also not sure. I saw this once before, but already put in a fix for the problem I'd seen. What game?
Arkham Knight. When I tried running the game again today, I received a different error: "Win32Exception: %1 is not a valid Win32 application."

I also tried running Alien Isolation. After a second launch, the game appears to be running correctly in Katanga window. Not sure, how do I change convergence when running HelixVision - the standard alt F5/F6 keys?

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by bo3bber »

whyme466 wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:01 pm
Arkham Knight. When I tried running the game again today, I received a different error: "Win32Exception: %1 is not a valid Win32 application."

I also tried running Alien Isolation. After a second launch, the game appears to be running correctly in Katanga window. Not sure, how do I change convergence when running HelixVision - the standard alt F5/F6 keys?
Thanks for trying this out, it's really helpful, even if it's not working in your case.

Those errors are bizarre. I don't have any good suggestions there. The Win32Exception text is not used in any of our software, not something we report. My best guess is that you have some other software in the pipeline that is interfering with it being able to run.

Can you give me more details on your setup? What driver, what version of OS, which HMD? Those errors are unique, and not ones I've ever seen on my 4 different setups. Where do you see these errors, and what do the dialogs look like?

Double check the installation. I assume that you got the Warning message box about modifying the driver, and said yes. In the game directory, there should be a nvgf2umx.dll, and a d3d11.dll. Hover over them and you can see versions. nvgf2umx should match your video driver version, and d3d11.dll should be 1.3.16.2. If those aren't in place, then the override didn't work and you can get the weird broken 3D problems from bad drivers.


For convergence, yep, ctrl-F5/F6 and all 3D Vision controls work like normal. There is another whole set of controls for changing the screen size and curve and distance, which can also change the 3D effect.

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by whyme466 »

My installation seems to check OK. d3d11.dll shows 1.3.16.2 version, and nvwgf2umx.dll shows 26.21.14.4614 version (file description is 446.14, my driver version).

i9-9900X, 2080Ti, 32 GB, Windows 10 2004, wireless/GearVR lens-modified Vive Pro, SteamVR 1.12.5. Error message appears after launching game (checked again today, after HelixVision beta update).
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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by bo3bber »

whyme466 wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:54 am
My installation seems to check OK. d3d11.dll shows 1.3.16.2 version, and nvwgf2umx.dll shows 26.21.14.4614 version (file description is 446.14, my driver version).

i9-9900X, 2080Ti, 32 GB, Windows 10 2004, wireless/GearVR lens-modified Vive Pro, SteamVR 1.12.5. Error message appears after launching game (checked again today, after HelixVision beta update).
Thanks for those details and the screen shot. That is definitely a Katanga error as specified by the title bar of the window. I try hard to capture every possible error condition- but obviously I missed something.

ArkhamKnight is working fine for me. Figures, right? I'm on Win10 1903, Driver 446.14. Using a Dell WMR, with SteamVR 1.12.5. Updated to HelixVision 0.9.19, 3Dmigoto 1.3.16.3, but pretty much the same.


In the crash case, can you collect the logs for me? C:\Users\[user]\AppData\LocalLow\Katanga\Katanga for katanga.log and output_log.txt. Should be smallish, you can post here.

Edit: Two other things worth trying.

1) Find Katanga.exe in the Tools/katanga subfolder for HelixVision, and double click it. It should launch the slideshow/demo behavior, but might crash in same way.
2) If that crashes, then it somehow did not get loaded/downloaded properly. Might be related to 2004, not sure. Worth doing an uninstall of HelixVision, delete the HelixVision folder, and then reinstall from scratch.

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by whyme466 »

Note that Katanga window is working fine during my testing with Alien Isolation, so I tend to think the issue is more game specific. Verified this by running Katanga.exe in the Tools/Katanga subfolder - stable, ran without issue.
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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by Pauldusler »

Not sure if it's the right way but maybe posting a news text for the Helixvision beta version in Steam is the better way to get feedback? This forum is basically dead. I had the same experience that only 3-4 people gave feedback here to 3DFM beta where I introduced the global driver hack to the app. Although these people did great in giving feedback it was just too few people to be representative. There are always the same 10-15 people around in this forum and not more. Hard to reach the majority of the users here.

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by russellk »

Pauldusler wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:17 pm
Not sure if it's the right way but maybe posting a news text for the Helixvision beta version in Steam is the better way to get feedback? This forum is basically dead. I had the same experience that only 3-4 people gave feedback here to 3DFM beta where I introduced the global driver hack to the app. Although these people did great in giving feedback it was just too few people to be representative. There are always the same 10-15 people around in this forum and not more. Hard to reach the majority of the users here.
Sadly I'm sure that's true and you see more of this than most as you have data on the number 3dfm users.
Silly question, but is HelixVision promoted on the Helix mod blog at all? I don't know how many users that would reach. I know there is (quite rightly) a healthy amount reverance for Helix (original shader god), but at this point everything needs to be pooled together and promoted as much as possible IMO.
I get the logic of posting here though. I'd like to think that most people on here are more focussed/technical versus people on steam that are more 'plug and play'.
Our expectations here are a lot lower :-) Well, some of us anyway!
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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by bo3bber »

whyme466 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:44 am
Note that Katanga window is working fine during my testing with Alien Isolation, so I tend to think the issue is more game specific. Verified this by running Katanga.exe in the Tools/Katanga subfolder - stable, ran without issue.
Thanks for posting those- but I need the log for when it crashes, not the slideshow when it's working.

That error message of "%1 is not a x32 app" apparently happens when the exe is corrupted or missing required dlls to load. I've never seen it in 3 years of testing, which is why your scenario is interesting.

If you happen to have a dual boot, it would be interesting to try something other than 2004. Bleeding edge is always problematic.

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by bo3bber »

russellk wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:48 pm
Pauldusler wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:17 pm
Not sure if it's the right way but maybe posting a news text for the Helixvision beta version in Steam is the better way to get feedback? This forum is basically dead. I had the same experience that only 3-4 people gave feedback here to 3DFM beta where I introduced the global driver hack to the app. Although these people did great in giving feedback it was just too few people to be representative. There are always the same 10-15 people around in this forum and not more. Hard to reach the majority of the users here.
Sadly I'm sure that's true and you see more of this than most as you have data on the number 3dfm users.
Silly question, but is HelixVision promoted on the Helix mod blog at all? I don't know how many users that would reach. I know there is (quite rightly) a healthy amount reverance for Helix (original shader god), but at this point everything needs to be pooled together and promoted as much as possible IMO.
I get the logic of posting here though. I'd like to think that most people on here are more focussed/technical versus people on steam that are more 'plug and play'.
Our expectations here are a lot lower :-) Well, some of us anyway!
I did make a forum thread on Steam forums for this, but no one has responded. My assumption is the same as russellk- people there are just customers, not enthusiasts, and don't care at all about testing.

I'm not adverse to posting info on HelixModBlog for HelixVision, it's just not a direct match. It's focused upon VR users, and that's a different subset than the HelixMod people. I assume that people who know about HelixModBlog will already know about HelixVision, or stumble across it easily. Could be wrong.

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by whyme466 »

Sorry, did not know that Katanga creates new log each time it is invoked (thought it might be merged). I have attached log following fatal error. Note that Katanga runs for several seconds before error message appears.

Yes, I have dual boot, but my other boot system does not have ANY VR software - just frozen 1809 setup focused upon 3D Vision.
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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by bo3bber »

whyme466 wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:50 am
Sorry, did not know that Katanga creates new log each time it is invoked (thought it might be merged). I have attached log following fatal error. Note that Katanga runs for several seconds before error message appears.

Yes, I have dual boot, but my other boot system does not have ANY VR software - just frozen 1809 setup focused upon 3D Vision.
Thanks for those, interesting result in the log. It has the same exception, and clarified that it's the launch of BatmanAK.exe that fails with that message.

Since that's a normal Start mechanism, used by every HelixVision user I think that something is most likely broken with your AK installation.

Try navigating to the game folder, and double click the BatmanAK.exe as a test. That's roughly comparable to how Katanga does it.

If that seems to work, check your Antivirus is not being overly aggressive and blocking the game being launched this way.

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by whyme466 »

When validating my local Arkham Knight game content, a number of files failed and needed to be reloaded (great investigation, bo3bber!).

Unfortunately, Arkham Knight's 3D is still not working correctly - left eye is completely black, while right eye shows the appropriate screen content. I cannot leave the title screen, because the A button on my Xbox controller is not recognized/acknowledged. When double clicking BatmanAK.exe, the controller works, and the game behaves normally. When rebooting to my 1809 SSD and using the same game file with 3D Vision, the game and 3D fix work correctly (a little more lighting artifacts than I remember). Note that I had to restart HelixVision and Katanga several times before I could even get this monoscopic view (for example, lengthy starting process with HMD removed caused wireless Vive Pro screens to go black, putting HMD back on did not activate screens, so had to disconnect/pause/reconnect power to restart displays - which confused Katanga sometimes).

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by bo3bber »

The left eye black means that 3D is not enabled for the game. You might be running in windowed mode. Or some other software has broken exclusive full screen.

When testing stuff like this and getting problems, disable everything. No overlays, not runtime monitors, no nothing. Every single one of those can break exclusive mode. Disable Steam Overlay, and any VR plugins like VRFPS.

Try switching modes in the game when it's running from windowed back to exclusive fullscreen.

Make sure AntiVirus aren't breaking things.


As a data point, whenever I test this game using my Vive Pro or Dell WMR, it starts every time without any fuss. EpicGameStore version of game, but I'll try Steam version too.

I don't think the problem you are seeing is related to HelixVision, it's more likely to be game specific or something specific to your system.

Also, please be sure to try other games from the curated list in HelixVision. It could be that something is broken here, and this is a red herring. We know some games don't currently work with this test branch, but they show crashes, not one-eye problems.

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by whyme466 »

With HelixVision testing, the only software I must disable is EVGA Precision XOC (used for GPU fan control). Nothing else is running, beyond VR software and HelixVision (and Norton antivirus). Note that a number of my installed Steam games do not show up in HelixVision directory, like Remnant: From the Ashes, RE2, and Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice. Unfortunately, I have not installed Origin or Epic Games software on my VR boot system, so HelixVision does not have access to these game libraries, as well.

For the 3 Steam games available,
Alien Isolation - works without issue (little bit of performance problem when moving about under HelixVision. MotherVR provides smooth motion and complete VR immersion, as point of reference).
Batman: Arkham Knight - still has black left eye (game set to fullscreen mode), with NO ability to advance beyond title screen (controller input ignored).
Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain - Katanga launches, then shows grey screen, no audio, game never starts (mgsvtpp.exe runs without issue in 2D).

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by bo3bber »

OK, the fact that it runs without errors in Alien Isolation says that HelixVision is working on your system.

You can open up your entire game library by switching to 3D Vision mode in the Settings tab. The primary list is a known working list of games that work in VR, the 3D Vision mode is 3DFM, but we also add the Play In VR button so you can try stuff that we have not validated.


For Arkham Knight- does it work in 3D Vision itself? Preferably Discover mode as simplest and most reliable, but any will do. The Arkham Knight screen is frontmost, right? The Katanga window runs in the background. And controller and keyboard input won't change screen unless it is frontmost. The fact that you aren't getting controller input is really weird.

Phantom Pain- this game also works simply and easily for me. Does it run properly in 3D Vision? Grey screen on Katanga is most often a bad connection to the game, which sounds hung. If Katanga is hung, you'll get a stuck screen in VR, instead of head movement.


Problems might be related to 2004, but PaulDusler has run it without errors. Your experience is not too far off from others, we periodically get comments that "it doesn't work at all" from reviewers. It's never been clear what is happening in these cases.

Thanks for continuing to test. I'll have a new update out later today probably that will fix 3D crash launches with 32 bit games.


BTW, I've been using GoG Galaxy to connect all the random game libraries. They have a connection for uPlay, Origin, and Epic, so I can just use them as the organizing and launcher. Still needs the other clients though.

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by bo3bber »

Latest version is updated, now 0.9.20. This includes some good changes to improve working in games, including x32 games now.


Probably unrelated to the problems you've been seeing, but maybe.

Wait a second though- you said it was working in Alien, and the last build did not work in Alien, it would crash at launch for any driver newer than 425.31.

Are you running the beta_driver branch of HelixVision from Steam? Regular version is on 0.9.15. Also are you running DCH driver?

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by whyme466 »

Running the beta_driver branch, as you originally requested.

Batman Arkham Knight is now working (both eyes/controller activated). Unfortunately, Phantom Pain now only launches in 2D mode (via HelixVision). It never launches in either 3D or VR mode (Katanga window never opens). The game does not appear in Task Manager window. The same game file works great with 1809 OS and 3D Vision. I also tried A Plague Tale: Innocence - the Katanga window froze displaying game launch screen.

I suggest increasing default Depth setting from 20% to at least 50%, and making the black background the default environment setting.

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by bo3bber »

whyme466 wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:46 pm
Running the beta_driver branch, as you originally requested.

Batman Arkham Knight is now working (both eyes/controller activated). Unfortunately, Phantom Pain now only launches in 2D mode (via HelixVision). It never launches in either 3D or VR mode (Katanga window never opens). The game does not appear in Task Manager window. The same game file works great with 1809 OS and 3D Vision. I also tried A Plague Tale: Innocence - the Katanga window froze displaying game launch screen.

I suggest increasing default Depth setting from 20% to at least 50%, and making the black background the default environment setting.
Very strange that Arkham Knight is now working, should have been fine before. And Phantom Pain works for me as well and 4 different test setups, 2 different hardware CPU/GPU. Very hard problem set, may I say. I can't explain some of the symptoms you've gotten, nothing really lines up. But I think your experience is what other people see, at least in some cases. We have about a 20% return rate because it doesn't work for people. I am hopeful that this driver override mechanism helps to solve this problem.


I don't think we can change from 20% to 50%, I've already gotten complaints that it's too much. I think this is the problem NVidia saw originally with new users not being able to take it. VR users might already be acclimated to this though. They already have to be able to do the convergence/accommodation, or get headaches.

For the full black as default- I can't do this because some people get vertigo if they are standing in a completely black space. I need a floor to start at least, and decided on the snow field. No need for starry sky though. I think the screen works better if it's lowered below the floor a bit, but will have to revisit this. Originally we had just tiles for the play area, but then people were playing outside of the play area at their desk. May I just say, it's all very difficult, because people. ;)


A little later, I'll be dramatically improving compatibility with DX11 games, because now that 3Dmigoto changes are required to support the video driver override, I can also add a direct access from 3Dmigoto instead of having to inject from the outside. This will make injection or connection 100% reliable, because 3Dmigoto has already done it.

The future has been grim for quite a long time, but at the moment, it's looking like we'll be able to leave Early Access and sell HelixVision as a real thing. At least until RTX3080 puts a final bullet through our head. ;)

tadpole
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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by tadpole »

What would I be missing if I combine Virtual Desktop (the app not the oculus mode) with 3D Fix Manager instead of using HelixVision?

(Not an attempt to disrespect this app, but a genuine question as I am interested in purchasing).

Pauldusler
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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by Pauldusler »

tadpole wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:30 pm
What would I be missing if I combine Virtual Desktop (the app not the oculus mode) with 3D Fix Manager instead of using HelixVision?

(Not an attempt to disrespect this app, but a genuine question as I am interested in purchasing).
When using 3DFM with Virtual Desktop you should set 3D Display Type to "3D Vision Discover for VR" and enable Side by Side format in the display profile. With this you get a Side by Side image but without the image being colorized which would normally happen in Discover mode.
I haven't used Virtual Desktop much as it was too troublesome to set up. Here are some reasons:
  • Exclusive fullscreen mode didn't work (at least in my tests in the past). VR Screen was just black in this case.
  • Only working for DX11 titles supporting 3dmigoto which does the side by side output or games which have side by side output integrated
  • Regular 3D Vision mode + 3dmigoto side by side did not work. That's the reason why to use "3D Vision Discover for VR" as it does not require exlusive fullscreen mode for 3D to work
  • Loss of quality when using Side by Side (resolution is halfed per eye)
  • Pretty hard to make 3D work at all. 3D somehow only worked for me when using the smaller floating VR screen. Here I had to enable "3D" every time manually, 3D content wasn't regognized automatically. Also it required me to choose the correct Left / Right or Right / Left format as eye order seemed to be flipped every time. Always took me several times until things worked which was frustrating. Then I had to play around with 3D depth because it was much too high by default etc... These are all things which are set up on the fly with HelixVision and things will be further improved there with next versions. Lots of fiddling around with Virtual Desktop.
  • More overhead / less performance
  • No curated compatibility list
  • Virtual Desktop has to be launched manually before playing
...

Not sure if Virtual Desktop still works with 3D Vision. I think I'll do a quick test today - just out of curiosity.

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by Pauldusler »

helifax wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:44 pm
While I haven't tested this branch yet (been focusing on my Vulkan wrapper lately), I can vouch for the DCH driver requirement!
On my laptop I can't install any Standard driver as it doesn't detect the RTX 2080 in my Alienware Area 51m laptop. Even the latest Standard driver will not install, because "No compatible GPU detected". Yes, I use DDU every single time when upgrading drivers!
I think Nvidia simply didn't add the GUID of this GPU in the Standard Driver list :(

If we have a solution for DCH (which we do and works perfectly fine, in my case) I would ask, please, don't discard it ^_^

Many thanks,
Helifax
Did you try this guide yet?
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/fo ... ia-driver/

tadpole
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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by tadpole »

Pauldusler wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:31 am
[*]More overhead / less performance
I'm sure all the other points are good and valid points (and many thanks for the detailed reply) but this one was the one that immediately convinced me - I feel kinda silly not having thought of it lol.

Many thanks again

bo3bber
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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by bo3bber »

tadpole wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:46 am
Pauldusler wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:31 am
[*]More overhead / less performance
I'm sure all the other points are good and valid points (and many thanks for the detailed reply) but this one was the one that immediately convinced me - I feel kinda silly not having thought of it lol.

Many thanks again
It's a little twist of history- 3D in Virtual Desktop is what prompted me to write the Katanga/VR piece in the first place, and also contact PaulDusler to see if he'd like to collaborate on an easy to use VR version.

I'm not too performance sensitive, as long as it's smooth, I can play at 30 fps happily. Virtual Desktop was mostly OK that way for me. But oh lordy, setup was always a giant pain the ass. Same was true of Big Screen. While great at what it does, 3D is an after thought to both of those apps. And the fiddling with settings every time I wanted to play was just too annoying.

So we are trying be the best 3D you can get in VR with HelixVision. Easiest to use, best quality. We are not always succesful, but some scenarios are working very well. On our primary curated list, you hit Play in VR, and it just works.

tadpole
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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by tadpole »

bo3bber wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:31 am
It's a little twist of history- 3D in Virtual Desktop is what prompted me to write the Katanga/VR piece in the first place, and also contact PaulDusler to see if he'd like to collaborate on an easy to use VR version.

I'm not too performance sensitive, as long as it's smooth, I can play at 30 fps happily. Virtual Desktop was mostly OK that way for me. But oh lordy, setup was always a giant pain the ass. Same was true of Big Screen. While great at what it does, 3D is an after thought to both of those apps. And the fiddling with settings every time I wanted to play was just too annoying.

So we are trying be the best 3D you can get in VR with HelixVision. Easiest to use, best quality. We are not always succesful, but some scenarios are working very well. On our primary curated list, you hit Play in VR, and it just works.

Hi, yes I can see how the early approaches with virtual desktop and 3d would have been a headache. I did try it a long time ago and managed to get a game working (I forget which one), but I remember there were a lot of steps involved.

A little bit of feedback having now tried helixvision:

I tried helixvision with Quern and it worked very well. At first there seemed to be an issue where the screen movement controls were also bound to my xbox controller (and moving around in Quern also moved the screen up and down), though after restarting helixvision this went away and hasn't come back.

I had some performance issues, the game displaying on my monitor was running smoothly whereas in vr was stuttering a fair bit, but I had a lot of other stuff going on on my pc too which might explain it (and probably performance will be improved as the app is developed). I'll test performance properly after my next clean boot.

Also helixvision doesn't seem to want to start if 3dfm is running. There are probably obvious reasons for this, but it is nice having 3dfm sitting in my tray telling me the current 3d status on my pc. I have a passive 3d display so I use 3dfm a lot too.

Finally, this is probably already on the to-do list but could you change the the icon for helixvision from the 3dfm one to the one steam uses for the desktop shortcut as I'm easily confused lol.

Many thanks for an amazing release though, I am certainly going to enjoy using it.

PS apologies if this is the wrong thread for my posts, I couldn't find a more appropriate one and I realise this one is really about the new beta.

Edit + PPS are you considering some time in the future using the native oculus api for vr where appropriate, some vr games do this (with a menu to select whether to use steam vr or oculus api) and virtual desktop has a separate oculus version. This often makes games run smoother and start a lot faster when enabled.

bo3bber
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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by bo3bber »

tadpole wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:34 am
I tried helixvision with Quern and it worked very well. At first there seemed to be an issue where the screen movement controls were also bound to my xbox controller (and moving around in Quern also moved the screen up and down), though after restarting helixvision this went away and hasn't come back.
This should only happen if the Katanga window is frontmost, it otherwise has no way to see the xbox controller. Windows can be stupid here, and have a window be frontmost, but not show it with the title bar. And depending upon the game, the controller might still work in the game.
I had some performance issues, the game displaying on my monitor was running smoothly whereas in vr was stuttering a fair bit, but I had a lot of other stuff going on on my pc too which might explain it (and probably performance will be improved as the app is developed). I'll test performance properly after my next clean boot.
The stuttering in VR happens because the Katanga VR app is being starved of GPU resources when in the background. Make sure you have about 5% of GPU headroom for it to run smoothly.

You can also experiment with the FrameRateLimiter in the latest drivers. If you set the game to run at 45 fps for example, that's exactly half the VR rate, and typically makes it a lot more smooth when you computer cannot maintain 90.
Also helixvision doesn't seem to want to start if 3dfm is running. There are probably obvious reasons for this, but it is nice having 3dfm sitting in my tray telling me the current 3d status on my pc. I have a passive 3d display so I use 3dfm a lot too.

Probably a prefs conflict. We took the 3D display icon out of HelixVision under the assumption that people wouldn't need to know or care. Because we have a new game based driver override, the main video driver is never altered.

BTW, HelixVision is a superset of 3DFM, so if switch into 3D Vision mode via Settings, you have all the settings normally provided by 3DFM, including monitor profiles.
Finally, this is probably already on the to-do list but could you change the the icon for helixvision from the 3dfm one to the one steam uses for the desktop shortcut as I'm easily confused lol.
Good call. We'll add this.
Edit + PPS are you considering some time in the future using the native oculus api for vr where appropriate, some vr games do this (with a menu to select whether to use steam vr or oculus api) and virtual desktop has a separate oculus version. This often makes games run smoother and start a lot faster when enabled.
This is not currently on the agenda, because my testing hasn't shown any performance improvement with Oculus runtime anymore. It used to be the case that it was better, but not for awhile.

Also, Oculus doesn't make anything easy, so adding this extra API would mean literally writing a complete second version of the app, just for them. They could easily add support that matched SteamVR, but they require every dev to do that work instead. That's not a good use of my time at present since SteamVR already provides that support.

tadpole
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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by tadpole »

Hi, many thanks for the detailed reply, I'll try the suggestions re performance. The PC is well overdue for a reboot lol. I haven't been able to reproduce the xbox controller issue so it looks like that one has gone away for now. It was handy it happened when it did as I've had to return my left controller for warranty replacement so I was able to set the screen how I want it using the xbox controller during that first time.
bo3bber wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:14 pm
BTW, HelixVision is a superset of 3DFM, so if switch into 3D Vision mode via Settings, you have all the settings normally provided by 3DFM, including monitor profiles.
I thought this might be the case, however 3DFM has made some changes recently that I like, namely sitting in the tray and showing what my 3D config is (on, off, driver mod) and with the ability to swap out patched 3d files for win10 1909. Will these changes come to HelixVision at some point? Having HelixVision in my tray instead of 3DFM would provide the best of everything.

Also, I haven't tried the beta yet (I want to be sure which issues are beta only when I get there) but will the ability to run 3d driver files from the game folder also work when playing in 3d in hacker mode?
Also, Oculus doesn't make anything easy
The main issue (as a user) with steamvr and oculus is the delay in opening steamvr first before running the game. I have seen several other developers in steam say that adding oculus api is a serious pita though, so I can fully understand why this isn't likely to happen.

Many thanks again to you both for developing this, it is great having a virtual 3d monitor that is a lot bigger than my real one. I don't have a very big library, but I'll try out what I do have and let you know if there are any issues that you might not already be aware of.

EDIT:
We took the 3D display icon out of HelixVision under the assumption that people wouldn't need to know or care. Because we have a new game based driver override, the main video driver is never altered.
I just realised this is relevant to my query about the 3DFM changes. I haven't tried the beta yet so this may be already fixed there with the new driver system, but I tried Close To The Sun - an Unreal 4 game which requires the driver patching - and this crashes with an error when clicking "Play 3D" and locks up when clicking "Play in VR". If I enable the driver fix in 3DFM first, it runs fine in HelixVision with both (I played 3-5 min in VR successfully with no apparent issues).

Is it possible then to restore the the driver fix and sytem tray functionality to the hacker mode, as that is where people who do know about this are likely to look for it?

bo3bber
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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by bo3bber »

tadpole wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:57 pm
bo3bber wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:14 pm
BTW, HelixVision is a superset of 3DFM, so if switch into 3D Vision mode via Settings, you have all the settings normally provided by 3DFM, including monitor profiles.
I thought this might be the case, however 3DFM has made some changes recently that I like, namely sitting in the tray and showing what my 3D config is (on, off, driver mod) and with the ability to swap out patched 3d files for win10 1909. Will these changes come to HelixVision at some point? Having HelixVision in my tray instead of 3DFM would provide the best of everything.
Current version of HelixVision beta is 0.9.24 and does the driver override on a per game basis. PaulDusler has liked this approach well enough that he is making it the default for future 3DFM. This avoids the necessity of patching your driver system wide. We felt that we could not patch a users driver system wide, but that it was OK on a per-game basis because we are already running HelixMods.

Because of this approach, there is less need for the system wide notification in the tray. 3DFM will still allow for a system wide patch if you want. This will still be useful for occasional games that don't seem to work in the per-game approach.

Per-game approach requires a special 3Dmigoto version to load the video driver locally, and thus can break some fixes that need a special 3Dmigoto like Hellblade. We currently only know of Hellblade, and Tomb Raider not working here.

Also, I haven't tried the beta yet (I want to be sure which issues are beta only when I get there) but will the ability to run 3d driver files from the game folder also work when playing in 3d in hacker mode?
It does. It's a more universal answer for the driver patching problem, that allows you to run your video driver normally when you aren't in 3D. This helps DCH drivers work for example, because there is no impact to system when 3D is off.

Any launch out of HelixVision will be doing driver override in game folder, either 3D or VR. As long as you are above driver 425.31, and OS 1903+.
Also, Oculus doesn't make anything easy

The main issue (as a user) with steamvr and oculus is the delay in opening steamvr first before running the game. I have seen several other developers in steam say that adding oculus api is a serious pita though, so I can fully understand why this isn't likely to happen.
Oculus Home and Dashboard software is nicely developed and better than Steam Home in a lot of respects. If they weren't so hostile to other players in the market, they'd get a lot more traction. Trying to win the market with a close ecosystem this early is a dumb strategy.

If you hit PlayIn3D or PlayInVR it will auto-launch all this stuff. So it will be a bit slow, but you shouldn't have to do anything special.

Many thanks again to you both for developing this, it is great having a virtual 3d monitor that is a lot bigger than my real one. I don't have a very big library, but I'll try out what I do have and let you know if there are any issues that you might not already be aware of.
It's working pretty well, we are likely to push this to all HelixVision owners in the next day. Unlocking the driver requirement is a key goal for us.

We took the 3D display icon out of HelixVision under the assumption that people wouldn't need to know or care. Because we have a new game based driver override, the main video driver is never altered.
I just realised this is relevant to my query about the 3DFM changes. I haven't tried the beta yet so this may be already fixed there with the new driver system, but I tried Close To The Sun - an Unreal 4 game which requires the driver patching - and this crashes with an error when clicking "Play 3D" and locks up when clicking "Play in VR". If I enable the driver fix in 3DFM first, it runs fine in HelixVision with both (I played 3-5 min in VR successfully with no apparent issues).

Is it possible then to restore the the driver fix and sytem tray functionality to the hacker mode, as that is where people who do know about this are likely to look for it?
I just tried Close to the Sun, and it worked in VR. It's giving a 3Dmigoto error in top left, but that's because of the update to 3Dmigoto 1.3.16.8 that we need. First launch hung in Katanga. This happens periodically, and I expect to fix this in future builds. Might be related to the WMR startup in my case.

Prior version of HelixVision has no driver override at all- you are expected to hack the driver yourself, or use 425.31, because as a commercial product we did not feel it was appropriate for us to modify their driver system wide. That's why it crashed- and why the beta_driver is 100x better.

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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by tadpole »

bo3bber wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:57 pm
Because of this approach, there is less need for the system wide notification in the tray. 3DFM will still allow for a system wide patch if you want. This will still be useful for occasional games that don't seem to work in the per-game approach.
Hi, I tried Close To The Sun with the beta version and I got it to run well in 3D without having to modify the driver globally. That really is a great solution to the problem!

As I still like to have the 3DFM icon in the system tray to see if 3D is on or off (I find some games like Forza and The Division 2 crash if I forget to turn 3D off, also it is useful to see the state before launching games directly from Windows), is it possible to get HelixVision to play nice with 3DFM (or vice versa)? I find HelixVision won't start with 3DFM running, but 3DFM will start with HelixVision running in case that gives any clue to the problem.

Alternatively, if he has the time, would PaulDusler be able to pull out some of the 3DFM code to write a tiny utility to mimic the systray features only of 3DFM (the toggles and the customisable icons - with perhaps with 'show' given the option to launch 3DFM or HelixVision)?

bo3bber
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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by bo3bber »

tadpole wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:48 pm
bo3bber wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:57 pm
Because of this approach, there is less need for the system wide notification in the tray. 3DFM will still allow for a system wide patch if you want. This will still be useful for occasional games that don't seem to work in the per-game approach.
Hi, I tried Close To The Sun with the beta version and I got it to run well in 3D without having to modify the driver globally. That really is a great solution to the problem!

As I still like to have the 3DFM icon in the system tray to see if 3D is on or off (I find some games like Forza and The Division 2 crash if I forget to turn 3D off, also it is useful to see the state before launching games directly from Windows), is it possible to get HelixVision to play nice with 3DFM (or vice versa)? I find HelixVision won't start with 3DFM running, but 3DFM will start with HelixVision running in case that gives any clue to the problem.

Alternatively, if he has the time, would PaulDusler be able to pull out some of the 3DFM code to write a tiny utility to mimic the systray features only of 3DFM (the toggles and the customisable icons - with perhaps with 'show' given the option to launch 3DFM or HelixVision)?
OK, good, I was expecting pretty much anything UE4 to work correctly with driver override. Thanks for testing.

For the 3D Icon- why not just let HelixVision auto-disable 3D when the game is done? That way it's never accidentally left on. It will automatically enable whenever you Play in 3D, or Play in VR. As a general rule, VR people want 3D turned off, because it can affect performance when playing a VR native game.


I'm not sure about the 3DFM/HelixVision conflict at launch, but it's likely related to the prefs file being locked and in use. PaulDusler will need to answer that part.

We can always bring the icon back, it's just superfluous, depending upon how you use the tool. Our assumption with HelixVision/VR users was that they wouldn't really care about 3D state, because it's all magic to them, and putting yet another icon in the tray was a bit heavy handed.

If you only ever launch out of HelixVision, you'll always see the state, and it will always work.

tadpole
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Re: HelixVision - Experimental beta with driver support

Post by tadpole »

I tried "What Remains of Edith Finch" up to finding the house. It had been sitting on my hard disk for ages and I had almost forgotten about it lol. The VR mode was amazing and I got a bit nauseous at one point (which is a good thing as this demonstrates how immersive-vr it is in HelixVision). I'll let you know more when I have played some more.
bo3bber wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:02 pm
I'm not sure about the 3DFM/HelixVision conflict at launch, but it's likely related to the prefs file being locked and in use. PaulDusler will need to answer that part.
That may be the reason, but both programs appear to load prefs data from different folders. Also 3DFM will launch happily after HelixVision is up and running and the 2 don't appear to interfere with each other.
We can always bring the icon back, it's just superfluous, depending upon how you use the tool. Our assumption with HelixVision/VR users was that they wouldn't really care about 3D state, because it's all magic to them, and putting yet another icon in the tray was a bit heavy handed.
I had been thinking (but I may well be in a minority of one) that hacker mode was for people who wanted this to be a superset for 3DFM and so the persistent icon with menu could perhaps be only activated in hacker mode, and regular VR users would get the default setting and the experience you described.

Also, HelixVision does actually have a tray icon, with a non-changing 3DFM icon but also with the 3D toggle menu - maybe an oversight?
If you only ever launch out of HelixVision, you'll always see the state, and it will always work.
I more often than not launch from pinned start menu items, I find a quick glance at the tray icon lets me know if I need to do anything more.

I did create a hacky workaround - a script that closes 3DFM and reopens it when HelixVision is running, but of course it reopens as a full window. Is there a secret command line setting for 3DFM to open directly to tray?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Editing post to avoid double posting)

Not sure if this is a bug or intentional, but every time Steam updates HelixVision, it seems to forget some of my settings. Specifically whether or not I am using hacker mode, any added folders in the search path and the checkmark against "Cache detected games". Not really a big deal though as it is easy to put right each time, but I'm posting it anyway in case you weren't aware.

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