It is currently Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:12 pm



 [ 33 posts ] 
 MTBS in 2011 
Author Message
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm
Posts: 5723
Hi Guys!

2011 is just around the bend, and we are looking at ways to improve MTBS in the new year. If possible, we'd like to add an S-3D gallery and fix this &$#(* spam problem. Please share ideas you'd like to see implemented in MTBS to help increase your enjoyment of the site.

Don't forget to share your input for the M3GA threads too!

viewtopic.php?t=12171
viewtopic.php?t=12172

Regards,
Neil


Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:50 am
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 11394
For a CAPTCHA I suggest we use free-view stereoscopic images. Then just ask the user "is this image cross-eye or parallel". No way some bot in China is going to figure that one out (I suspect some users might have trouble too). Or we could show a screen-shot of a video game, and then have a multiple choice quiz as to which game it is. Or even better, list the name of the game (inside an image so a bot can't read it) and then have the user choose from a set of 8 screen-shots. We could also use 3D movies as well for this purpose. To avoid spammers, one wrong answer will cancel the sign-up and lock them out for a period of time. This won't, of course, stop a human from signing up with an account and posting spam manually. But I think it will deter any automated posts. One solution, that you may not want to do, is to limit the rights of new users. For example, maybe they are not allowed to post unless they have been a member for at least 3 days. Or only allow them to post replies and not start new topics for a period of time. This may curb "drive-by" spamming. You could also require all new users to be approved by moderators. So allow them to post a certain amount of posts (say 3 maximum), but do not display it publicly. Then once a moderator has approved these initial posts they would be granted full user access. If they were spamming, their account could be disabled/deleted at that point without end-users ever noticing anything. Not sure if the forum software here supports that kind of thing.

And yes, I would still like to help out building that S3D photo gallery. Should have some time over the holidays so I will see what I can come up with.

_________________
check my blog - cybereality.com


Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:16 am
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm
Posts: 5723
I'm afraid I wouldn't pass the CAPTCHA test in 3D (AIGH! I can't cross my eyes!)

However, here are some options:

http://www.phpbb.com/customise/db/modif ... nti-spam-9

Regards,
Neil


Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:54 am
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:34 pm
Posts: 2909
Location: Sweden
Detecting and preventing links in first time users posts. They may add siglinks or post links once they reach 20 posts or something...

_________________
Mb: Asus P5W DH Deluxe
Cpu: C2D E6600
Gb: Nvidia 7900GT + 8800GTX
3D:100" passive projector polarized setup + 22" IZ3D
Image


Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:04 am
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 11394
Likay wrote:
Detecting and preventing links in first time users posts. They may add siglinks or post links once they reach 20 posts or something...

Ah yes, what an obvious solution. Why didn't I think of that?

@Neil: The plug-in is here:
http://www.phpbb.com/customise/db/mod/d ... 2b5d197d4f

_________________
check my blog - cybereality.com


Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:56 pm
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm
Posts: 5723
All mods need to support PHPBB 3.0.8 or later. I don't think this would work.

Regards,
Neil


Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:15 pm
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:06 pm
Posts: 2255
Location: Perpignan, France
I think the first thing would be to get some real stats about spamming, it would help in understanding how this site is spammed. To do that you'd probably need to not delete spam messages but to collect them somewhere for some period of time (let's say one month). You should not only keep the messages contents but also the metadata like the poster name and the inscription and posting dates and times, number of tries at inscription, messages titles, etc.

That could give some valuable informations like these :
- is there really a problem with the captcha ? ie. are bots passing it ?
- how many messages does a spammer post in average ?
- how much time has passed before the inscription and the first post ?
- at which frequency is spam posted for the same poster ?
- are there trends in the poster names ?
- etc.

You should also evaluate the metadatas for non-spam posts, and by comparing the two sets of metadatas you could identify characteristics in the metadatas of spams.

Then, it would be a good idea to find a phpBB module which is able to use a bayesian filter in the same way they are used in e-mail servers. You would have to train this filter with the collected spam, and then use the filter for all the messages posted by new members. The filter should be able to learn by using messages manually marked as spam when they are missed by the filter.

The filter would calculate a spam score based both on the content and the metadatas. By pondering each source of data you could affine the filter. For example, if the content is marked as 90% probable spam (three times "wow gold" in the message for example) the message would be immediately deleted, but if only marked as 20% probable spam it wouldn't be enough for it to be deleted automatically. But if the metadata is typical of a spammer (first post 5 secs after inscription, 4 identical posts, all posted in less than 10 secs, etc.) it could augment its spam score to 90% and then deletion would be allowed. The spam should not be deleted but still keeped in the database, first to be able to use this data to train the filter, second to have a guard band in case a message marked as spam was in fact legitimate. You'd still need to manually validate spam and non-spam messages, but only after it passed the filter, so it won't be visible for regular forum members.

I don't think you should add limits to what a new member should be able to do, like not posting for 3 days, not starting a thread or not posting links. That would be very counter productive for a site like this one which is mostly addressed to help newcomers.

And for the general design of the site, I would get rid of the black background which I very much dislike (that's the case for any website, not particulary this one), but I'm afraid not many people here would agree with me... :P


Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:57 pm
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 11394
The best solution would be just to totally disallow use of any BBCode or HTML in new users posts. Do not just strip the code, simply disallow them to submit a post if it contains code (same for signature). You do run the problem that spammers can create an account, post some innocuous questions and then later edit the posts (or their signature). They have done this before. This is a little harder to catch as they sometimes write stuff that is somewhat on topic and quote other users (although it is usually clear something is wrong). If bots are a problem, we can write better CAPTCHAs. I like my idea of the image grid with gaming/movie trivia. Whatever the case, something needs to be done. I go to other forums and most of them are able to keep spam under control. So I don't think this is a losing battle.

@Fredz: I agree that we should still let new users post freely. A lot of people come here to ask questions or lurk for a while and finally register only when they intend to make a post. So it would hinder this freedom a bit. However, I don't think it is that huge a deal to have a new user wait just a couple of hours for a moderator to approve their first post. After the user is verified, then they can post whatever they want. It is a minor inconvenience for a user one-time, where-as spam is a constant annoyance to the whole community. I mean, there have to be some restrictions is place for new users (no code, mod verification, 3 post limit, etc.) otherwise its just the wild-wild-west and obviously that is not working out.

_________________
check my blog - cybereality.com


Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:58 pm
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:35 pm
Posts: 2466
Location: Kiev, ukraine
Neil wrote:
Hi Guys!
If possible, we'd like to add an S-3D gallery

wait - don't you already have an S-3D gallery or do you mean a second one or completely change the original?

_________________
Oculus Rift / 3d Sucks - 2D FTW!!!


Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:29 am
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:06 pm
Posts: 2255
Location: Perpignan, France
cybereality wrote:
The best solution would be just to totally disallow use of any BBCode or HTML in new users posts. Do not just strip the code, simply disallow them to submit a post if it contains code (same for signature).
Disallowing the signature for some days for new users sounds like a nice idea since it doesn't add any value to the content, but I don't think disabling BBCode or HTML is a good idea, even only for some days. On most forums people are lurking a bit before making their first post, but on this forum there are also many people who register only to ask a question because it's the only place on the net where it can be answered. And they often provide a link to a material or a website to ask if it's a good purchase or to have more information about it. That would defeat one of the goal of this site, have a rapid answer to a question about 3D for a newcomer.

cybereality wrote:
You do run the problem that spammers can create an account, post some innocuous questions and then later edit the posts (or their signature). They have done this before. This is a little harder to catch as they sometimes write stuff that is somewhat on topic and quote other users (although it is usually clear something is wrong).
The site should be able to detect such posts as they are posted, using a spam filter can help, but new techniques must be found for posts that are cut'n'pasted from the web or quoting existing content.

cybereality wrote:
If bots are a problem, we can write better CAPTCHAs. I like my idea of the image grid with gaming/movie trivia. Whatever the case, something needs to be done. I go to other forums and most of them are able to keep spam under control. So I don't think this is a losing battle.
As I said, having some stats would help to know if the CAPTCHA is really at fault, but I doubt it. If it's the case there are quite a lot of existing CAPTCHA techniques that can already be used, using one that we invented ourselves won't be as effective.

cybereality wrote:
However, I don't think it is that huge a deal to have a new user wait just a couple of hours for a moderator to approve their first post. After the user is verified, then they can post whatever they want.
Yes that's a nice idea too, having a team of trusted moderators from different timezones who pre-filter new posts before they are effectively posted could be a very good solution. I think the best way to create such a list of moderators would be to analyse the forum stats, by calculating the time presence for each forum member on a specified period of time (one month for example). That way we could even be able to estimate the time it would take for a post before it's moderated and adapt the number of moderators to attain a reasonable delay (say 30 min, 1h, etc.).

cybereality wrote:
It is a minor inconvenience for a user one-time, where-as spam is a constant annoyance to the whole community. I mean, there have to be some restrictions is place for new users (no code, mod verification, 3 post limit, etc.) otherwise its just the wild-wild-west and obviously that is not working out.
As a first step having a little database of the most frequent spams to filter new posts could be helpful. For example there are many posts which include "wow gold" or similar keywords many times that this technique could get rid of immediately. Same thing for the posts from a new member that are all identical.


Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:52 am
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm
Posts: 5723
There was a time that MTBS didn't have spam, and the solution was to have a unique question that the spambots didn't recognize. We just need the right plug-in for this.

Regards,
Neil


Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:25 am
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 11394
Fredz wrote:
As I said, having some stats would help to know if the CAPTCHA is really at fault, but I doubt it. If it's the case there are quite a lot of existing CAPTCHA techniques that can already be used, using one that we invented ourselves won't be as effective.

Actually a proprietary CAPTCHA just for this site could be more effective than an off-the-shelf one. If we use the most popular CAPTCHA plug-in, its likely spammers have already designed a system to defeat it. If we create something custom, it is unlikely some spammer is going to go out of his way to re-architect his spam algorithm to support some obscure niche forum like this one. Yes, its security through obscurity but, in this case, I think it could work.

yuriythebest wrote:
wait - don't you already have an S-3D gallery or do you mean a second one or completely change the original?

We were talking about building a S3D image viewer plugin, similar to YouTube3D but for images. Right now there is an image gallery but it only supports 2D images (although they can be in side-by-side and you would have to save them as JPS and open on your machine). I wanted to start building this in Flash, but I have been pretty busy with my parallax barrier project. Maybe I will take a break from that and look into this today.

_________________
check my blog - cybereality.com


Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:07 am
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:06 pm
Posts: 2255
Location: Perpignan, France
cybereality wrote:
Yes, its security through obscurity but, in this case, I think it could work.
Security through obscurity is never a good long-term solution as you know, it would probably work for some time but it'll inevitably be defeated in the end, and most probably sooner than later. I also believe that the techniques used for defeating CAPTCHAs are quite general (OCR for example) and are not tuned for a particular CAPTCHA.

There is still a lot of ongoing research in this field and nobody among us has the knowledge nor the time to design and maintain a good CAPTCHA system. The site would be better advised to use an existing implementation known for being both quite efficient and well maintained like reCAPTCHA.

But as I said (again), you really need some stats about spams to know if the CAPTCHA is really at fault, which, again, I really doubt since relay attacks with human solvers are often used for spamming now. It would be quite stupid to spend time on this only to realise that it has no effect on spam volume in the end.

cybereality wrote:
We were talking about building a S3D image viewer plugin, similar to YouTube3D but for images. Right now there is an image gallery but it only supports 2D images (although they can be in side-by-side and you would have to save them as JPS and open on your machine). I wanted to start building this in Flash, but I have been pretty busy with my parallax barrier project. Maybe I will take a break from that and look into this today.
A real S3D gallery would really be a nice addition, using Flash could be a solution but it may be wise to wait for the availability of the version 10.2 which should add support for stereo 3D natively.

Another option would be to use WebGL like 3DF33D.tv did, but it's only supported in the beta versions of some browsers at this time (Firefox 4, Chrome and Safari).

Or someone could simply write a non-flash browser plugin or use an existing flash based one like p2gStereoPhoto or Flash based Stereo Viewer.


Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:40 pm
Cross Eyed!
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 3:50 pm
Posts: 103
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
cybereality wrote:
We were talking about building a S3D image viewer plugin, similar to YouTube3D but for images. Right now there is an image gallery but it only supports 2D images (although they can be in side-by-side and you would have to save them as JPS and open on your machine). I wanted to start building this in Flash, but I have been pretty busy with my parallax barrier project. Maybe I will take a break from that and look into this today.

I was actually thinking about something like that few days ago, and I though how useful it would be if you could open these jpg/png files directly in your viewing program. Stereoscopic Player supports opening URLs, but unfortunately it's only for video, no images (yet). So if that is fixed, one could just create a playlist (.pss) with all the URLs of the images in the current gallery, then download just the playlist and view the images as he/she pleases (including page-flipping mode, which can't be done with any browser plugin/extension as far as I know). But for this to work, Peter has to implement it in his software. Another similar approach would be someone to implement these features in sView 2008 which is now open-source if I understand correctly. In sView 2010 it would be possible as well, but its author has to do the work.


Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:43 pm
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 11394
Well I was thinking about a Flash plug-in simply because I am good at Flash and could do it easily. It is also well supported on all browsers, unlike something like WebGL which won't be relevant for years to come. Flash 10.2 is adding 3d hardware acceleration (as in polygons), not native support for stereo 3D. You also cannot link with C/C++ libraries, so it still wouldn't be possible to support non-frame-compatible 3D modes like shutter, iz3d, etc. Nvidia does have a 3D Vision plugin, that works with Silverlight (I think) but I am not sure if there is an API for this. I am also not sure how much better off we would be with a custom plug-in, what would we gain? I mean, even the iz3D developers for all their years of experience cannot get shutter output to work with total control of a Windows service. I highly doubt we would have better luck doing this in a browser. I mean, if it were only an image viewer, then it would probably be possible to stay above 60fps. However you still need a way to interface with the glasses, to at least turn them on. And really, how many people are using old-school shutters on a CRT these days? I guess the advantage is that we could support dual-output modes (dual projector, stereo mirror, etc.) but thats all I can think of. And even those could be faked in fullscreen Flash if you use a horizontal span in multi-monitor configuration. It would be nice to support Nvidia 3D Vision though, as this is probably the most popular solution at the moment (even if it doesn't seem so here because so many people have old or alternative hardware). For viewing natively I figured Flash could just open a dialog box to save/open a JPS file. Ideally you would already have something like the Nvidia Photo Viewer as the default application. So then you just select "open" and it would open in 3D Vision mode.

_________________
check my blog - cybereality.com


Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:56 pm
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:06 pm
Posts: 2255
Location: Perpignan, France
cybereality wrote:
Well I was thinking about a Flash plug-in simply because I am good at Flash and could do it easily. It is also well supported on all browsers, unlike something like WebGL which won't be relevant for years to come.
WebGL won't be relevant for years to come ? You must be kidding, every major player in the browser field is implementing it, it's going to be the only truly open standard for 3D acceleration on browsers for years to come, just like OpenGL ES is right now on mobile phones.

cybereality wrote:
Flash 10.2 is adding 3d hardware acceleration (as in polygons), not native support for stereo 3D. You also cannot link with C/C++ libraries, so it still wouldn't be possible to support non-frame-compatible 3D modes like shutter, iz3d, etc.
I've read several articles talking about the stereo 3D capabilities of the future Flash version, but I didn't find anything to confirm this on the Adobe site unfortunately. In this article it's said that Adobe and NVIDIA did test streaming of 3D videos using an alpha version of Flash 10.2 with 3D Vision though :
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... ming-video

cybereality wrote:
Nvidia does have a 3D Vision plugin, that works with Silverlight (I think) but I am not sure if there is an API for this. I am also not sure how much better off we would be with a custom plug-in, what would we gain?
When 3D acceleration will be available in browsers with Flash by giving access to Direct3D surfaces, adding 3D Vision support would be quite trivial though thanks to their API.

cybereality wrote:
I mean, even the iz3D developers for all their years of experience cannot get shutter output to work with total control of a Windows service. I highly doubt we would have better luck doing this in a browser.
It seems the iZ3D developers don't have much knowledge in low-level graphics programming at all, solutions for page-flipping and shutter glasses have existed for years in the VR field beside NVIDIA as I've already said on other topics. I could even implement a hardware page-flipping test myself in only two days under Windows and pilot VGA DDC glasses with NV40 and NV50 graphic cards under Linux. Doing all this in a browser would not be any different than in a standalone app either.

cybereality wrote:
For viewing natively I figured Flash could just open a dialog box to save/open a JPS file. Ideally you would already have something like the Nvidia Photo Viewer as the default application. So then you just select "open" and it would open in 3D Vision mode.
That's probably the best short-term solution before other techniques exit from their beta state (Flash 10.2, WebGL, etc.). Using an existing Flash-based photo viewer like those I mentionned could also be a quite easy solution to use, giving functionnality equivalent to YouTube 3D for images.


Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:32 pm
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 11394
Fredz wrote:
WebGL won't be relevant for years to come ? You must be kidding, every major player in the browser field is implementing it, it's going to be the only truly open standard for 3D acceleration on browsers for years to come, just like OpenGL ES is right now on mobile phones.

Its not even a standard yet, let alone fully implemented by all vendors. Most importantly, it is not supported in IE, even in IE9. So we will have to wait until IE10 to *maybe* have support for WebGL. How many years will that be? How many more years will we have to wait for all the people to upgrade their browsers to the latest version (keep in mind a good chunk of users still run IE6). It has a long long way to the 99% penetration rate on Flash Player 9.

_________________
check my blog - cybereality.com


Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:36 pm
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:06 pm
Posts: 2255
Location: Perpignan, France
cybereality wrote:
Its not even a standard yet, let alone fully implemented by all vendors.
Yes it's still a work in progress, but it's still a cross-platform, royalty-free web standard. It's not yet fully implemented by all vendors but it's supported by the browsers that make more than 70% of the market as of november 2010. See : http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

cybereality wrote:
Most importantly, it is not supported in IE, even in IE9. So we will have to wait until IE10 to *maybe* have support for WebGL. How many years will that be?
PNG has been a standard for lossless images for a long time and IE started to support it correctly only in IE 9. Would you call PNG a failure ? Internet Explorer is no more relevant in the browser market, just like it was some years ago.

cybereality wrote:
How many more years will we have to wait for all the people to upgrade their browsers to the latest version (keep in mind a good chunk of users still run IE6).
That's just plain wrong, IE6 is used only by 4.1% of the users, other versions of IE account for 24.5% of the usage. If you look at the stats for all the browsers, you'll see that the latest version is always the most used and by a very large margin.

cybereality wrote:
It has a long long way to the 99% penetration rate on Flash Player 9.
70% is not bad for a start for WebGL considering its work in progress state, and I really question this 99% penetration number of Flash on the Web, the only numbers that can be found on this subject all come from Adobe.


Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:38 am
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 11394
Fredz wrote:
That's just plain wrong, IE6 is used only by 4.1% of the users, other versions of IE account for 24.5% of the usage. If you look at the stats for all the browsers, you'll see that the latest version is always the most used and by a very large margin.

I am not so sure about this. The numbers from W3C are skewed because the people that go to that site are all web developers, of course using the latest and greatest browser versions. From what I am seeing, IE6 still accounts for around 16% of the market (all versions of IE are about 50%), which is sizable:
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Chrome-L ... 9200.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_E ... sage_share

That would make IE6 market share over 50% more than Chrome and over twice that of Safari and Opera combined. This is not a negligible number. Of course, this market is also mostly corporate running ancient computers and legacy 16-bit software. Probably not the type of people with $300 video cards or stereoscopic 3D monitors. However it is important to take into account when you are developing any sort of web applications. Of course, you can just drop support and request that these users upgrade to a modern browser. However if you can find a way to support them, or provide acceptable fallbacks, then this widens the potential market. If you are only developing for the bleeding edge, unstable nightly build, then you are only going to get a certain kind of customer. As a developer I would much rather create something that the vast majority of users can enjoy, rather than catering to a small 10% of the "elite". Of course, you have to come to a compromise somewhere, I am not interested if my software will run on Windows ME. But it is important to look at the numbers and make an informed decision.


Fredz wrote:
cybereality wrote:
It has a long long way to the 99% penetration rate on Flash Player 9.
70% is not bad for a start for WebGL considering its work in progress state, and I really question this 99% penetration number of Flash on the Web, the only numbers that can be found on this subject all come from Adobe.

Dude, believe it. Show me one person with a computer that has never been to YouTube and watched a single video. They would need to have Flash installed to do this (beta HTML5 support notwithstanding).

I agree that WebGL is going to be very important in the coming years. I imagine even we might see some experimental stuff in 2011, and commercial projects in 2012. But I don't think it will be ubiquitous within that timeframe, and I doubt any major sites will rely on it as their sole medium. I could see gaming portals as the first early adopters of this standard, and that will happen sooner rather than later. But as it is today, it is nowhere near "production-ready" and the penetration rates are far too low to consider it a viable platform. I am not trying to discount it. Starting developing on it today would be very helpful so you have the experience when it is actually a standard. But shipping a product using it today is naive and not really an option.

_________________
check my blog - cybereality.com


Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:50 am
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:06 pm
Posts: 2255
Location: Perpignan, France
cybereality wrote:
I am not so sure about this. The numbers from W3C are skewed because the people that go to that site are all web developers, of course using the latest and greatest browser versions. From what I am seeing, IE6 still accounts for around 16% of the market (all versions of IE are about 50%), which is sizable
Ok, my reference was a little bit biased, nontheless the market share of 16% you gave for IE6 dates back from August, the number for November 2010 is only 13.72%. But the stats of this site (Net Applications) look really dubious to me, according to them Netscape 6 which is no more maintained since 2002 has more market share than IE 9, how on earth would this be possible ? I don't know how they get their stats, but I really question their validity.

Anyway the other sites referenced by Wikipedia give very low market share to IE6 (W3Counter : 4.93%, StatCounter : 6.44%) so this still confirms what I said before, IE6 market share is marginal at best.

I was wrong about the other versions of IE though, I thought its market share was much lower. Still, WebGL could be made to work on IE thanks to the Chrome Frame plugin, but that's not an ideal solution though.

It would probably be a good idea to have browser stats for MTBS3D to know which browsers are the most used to view the site though.

cybereality wrote:
Dude, believe it. Show me one person with a computer that has never been to YouTube and watched a single video. They would need to have Flash installed to do this (beta HTML5 support notwithstanding).
You are quite right concerning PCs, but there are still at least over 80 million people that have never watched any Flash video with their machine while browsing the Web (using iPhone/iPad). Adobe didn't include these types of devices when they claimed their 99% market share.

Anyway what is important to know is what technologies are available for 3D image viewing on browsers for a maximum of 3D equipements. At this time you can choose between Flash and WebGL and maybe Silverlight (3D Vision Live). Flash and WebGL can support the same type of outputs (frame compatible, interlaced, anaglyph) and there are ongoing tests with WebGL to add frame sequential 3D. Maybe Flash 10.2 will be able to do that too.

cybereality wrote:
Starting developing on it today would be very helpful so you have the experience when it is actually a standard. But shipping a product using it today is naive and not really an option.
Tell that to the guys behind 3DF33D.tv, they are using WebGL right now for 3D pictures and video streaming. They're currently testing page-flipping, which makes them the only site with this type of functionnality on the Web that isn't tied to a proprietary vendor (ie. 3D Vision Live).


Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:27 pm
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 11394
To tell you the truth, I couldn't care less about IE6 and if it will be supported by any MTBS3D plug-ins. I should hope users of stereoscopic equipment were also interested in keeping up with the times in terms of their web browser. I just brought it up to illustrate the issues you get into when developing cross-browser compatible web applications. The flip side of the coin is like the site you linked to: http://www.3df33d.tv/ . When I go there I see a bunch of black boxes and a pop-up telling me to download beta software. That is great that they want to be on the bleeding edge, but with it you are reducing your userbase significantly, in an already small niche market. I guess someone has to be the front-runner, so I don't blame them for trying. In terms of the MTBS3D photo-viewer, I would like to appeal to the greatest audience as to be accessible by new or inexperienced users. This basically means supporting a platform they already have installed, like Flash. I think Silverlight is also a contender, since it has support of Nvidia 3D Vision, but I am not really too familiar with developing Silverlight apps (though I am sure I could learn if necessary). WebGL, while technically maybe the best solution, just does not seem ready for prime-time at this moment. I would almost be more interested in just developing a custom proprietary MTBS3D plug-in that could work across all major browsers (only needing a quick 30 second install) rather than developing something in WebGL that could only be used on unreleased beta software.

_________________
check my blog - cybereality.com


Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:05 pm
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:06 pm
Posts: 2255
Location: Perpignan, France
Another technology to keep an eye on for stereo 3D on the Web is the Unity Web Player. It's a browser plugin for 3D rendering (not stereo for now) that supports Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari, Chrome, Opera, Mozilla, Netscape on Windows 2000/XP/Vista/7 and Safari, Firefox, Mozilla, Netscape, Camino on Mac OS X 10.3.9 or newer : Unity Web Player

What is really nice with this plugin is that it's lightweight (571 KB), that it does work without restarting the browser after installation (tested on Google Chrome) and that it's able to show real-time interactive 3D, which could be a great solution for 360° panoramas. You can find some examples here (but not in 3D stereo) : http://www.ruined.com/

BigPoint has announced stereo 3D support with shutter glasses for two of their titles (Ruined Online and ToonRacer) which will be available in spring 2011. I don't know if the stereo 3D version of the plugin will be available before this date though :
Bigpoint Brings Stereoscopic 3D Action to Browser Games

For now there is still support for interactive anaglyph rendering as shown here : Stereoscopic Images in Unity3D

I guess it won't be difficult to adapt it to use other anaglyph modes or to render frame compatible content like in YouTube 3D (side-by-side, interlaced, checkerboard, etc.). And since it's interactive, it would also be possible to add control for convergence and separation too I guess.


Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:24 am
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 11394
Yeah, I've played with Unity a bit. Its pretty cool. It does work perfectly fine with existing 3D driver solutions (Nvidia and IZ3D) but you have to launch in full-screen for certain outputs (I can do windowed 3D on my Zalman w/ iz3d which is pretty nice though). So in terms of stereo 3d gaming on the web, it is here today and works great. Supporting native 3D solutions might be a little more difficult, but I suppose frame-compatible methods would not be an issue. Not sure what type of file access you get w/ Unity though (ie loading JPS files from a server and parsing that to local bitmap objects, saving/opening files in a native OS dialog, etc.). But yeah, its cool technology.

_________________
check my blog - cybereality.com


Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:08 am
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 11394
Just a little update: Work has been dead slow this week, so in my downtime I was able to start development on the MTBS3D Stereo Photo Viewer. It can load JPS or PNS 3D images (actually can be JPG, PNG, GIF or BMP if in the proper full-res side-by-side R|L format). The 3d outputs currently supported are as follows:

- Anaglyph (full color or grayscale) in Red/Cyan, Green/Magenta and Yellow/Blue for use with cheap colored glasses.
- Side-by-Side (half-width frame-compatible) can be used with modern 3D HDTVs or Vuzix Wrap HMDs.
- Over-Under (half-height frame-compatible) can be used with modern 3D HDTVs or shutter glasses with "sync-double" capabilities.
- Horizontal Interlace (row interleaved) can be used with Zalman, Hyundai, Miracube, JVC, LG passive-polarized displays. Also works with shutter glasses in "line-blanking" mode.
- Vertical Interlace (column interleaved) can be used with older auto-stereo displays (Sharp, SeeReal) or even DIY parallax barriers.
- Checkerboard which can be used with "3D Ready" DLP HDTVs from Mitsubishi and Samsung.
- Free-View (crosseye or parallel) can be viewed without any glasses or special hardware.
- Wiggle which basically just cycles back and forth really quick. Looks a little cheesy, but doesn't need any hardware.

So far that covers a pretty good chunk of stereo display solutions. I'm also working on a mirror-split mode (side-by-side or over-under) but it wasn't totally finished. I would also like to expand Anaglyph support to include optimized/dubois and official support for ColorCode and TriOViz solutions (although I did test ColorCode glasses with my Yellow/Blue mode and it was close). SENSIO and RealD formats could also be supported but it would take a performance hit and I am not sure how needed it is when Side-by-Side is compatible. I also think I have a work around to get dual display modes supported. This means that dual passive projection and some HMDs could work. I think native IZ3D mode could also be done (may be processor intensive though). Beyond that I am not sure Flash could handle any other formats. So native support for stuff like Nvidia 3D Vision or HDMI 1.4 is probably not in the cards. However there is the ability to open the image in a native OS dialog box, thus allowing use of the Nvidia Photo Viewer, etc. Not sure what other formats people might be using. If there is something that I missed here that could be implemented in Flash, please let me know and I will add it. After that is done, then I will have to integrate it with the MTBS3D gallery (which I hope won't be to hard). Shouldn't take too long, though. I will post a beta version sometime soon, maybe in a few days.

_________________
check my blog - cybereality.com


Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:11 pm
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:06 pm
Posts: 2255
Location: Perpignan, France
Apart for the corrected anaglyphs, mirror and frame sequential modes I don't see anything that would be missing. Congrats on this job !

I'm not sure if you know it but you can use the Dubois algorithm for any type of anaglyph glasses (red/cyan, magenta/green, blue/yellow), it would be a great addition to your viewer. You could also add half-color for anaglyph too since it is used in most viewers and in the NVIDIA driver for 3D Discover.

Did you try to implement frame sequential ? From what I've read the rendering is synchronized to the vertical retrace on Mac OS X so it may be possible to at least have a solution for shutter glasses on this platform (with some sort of activator for the glasses though). You could also try the Flash 10.2 beta to see if there are updates concerning synchronization for other platforms since it supposedly should include Direct3D support.

Any chance you can put a test website online also so we can test the interface ?


Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:44 am
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 11394
Yes, I certainly want to explore what can be done with anaglyph (dubois, half-color, etc.). You know, I have not bothered with anaglyph much recently, but I bought a bunch of paper glasses (just for testing the image viewer) and anaglyph is not really as bad as I remember. I have a bunch of different high-end red/cyan glasses already (Pro-View, Pro-Ana, Ana-Chrome, etc.) but I haven't used the other colors much. So I got some red/cyan, red/blue, green/magenta and ColorCode glasses. With the proper content they can actually look pretty good. With the ColorCode glasses on this one specific level in UT2004 (mostly gray colored), I swear it looked better than the Zalman. The resolution was certainly a step up. Most levels, however, had bad color loss or retinal rivalry though. Some content is also too dark to see properly. But it leads me to think with the proper optimizations we could have very acceptable quality from these cheap $2 glasses.

In terms of frame-sequential: the "wiggle" mode is basically software pageflipping. I have a delay value to how many frames it stays on for each view. If the value is set to zero, then it alternates between left and right each frame. The issue is that Flash in general cannot hold a steady framerate. Its set to 30fps, but can go as low as 20fps or higher like 35fps. With stuff like video I know Flash can utilize the hardware directly, so in that case I think it can reach smooth 60fps framerates. Not sure how much access I have to that stuff but I can look into it (I just started using Flash 10 right now, so maybe 10.1 or 10.2 have some features I haven't seen). I also thought about maybe using blue-line encoding or something along those lines (that would work with an external activator). However, even if the sync was perfect getting 15Hz per eye would be horrible. Best case scenario would be like 30Hz per eye (since browsers tend to throttle Flash). This is going to change in 10.2, so we can always add support at that time if its possible.

Yes, I plan to put it online soon. I'm trying to get my website back up this weekend, should only take a day or two for the DNS to propagate.

_________________
check my blog - cybereality.com


Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:12 am
Cross Eyed!
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 3:50 pm
Posts: 103
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Hi, cybereality, I'm happy that you are working on that, and I hope we'll see some results soon.

I just want to say what I found out few days ago, while I was searching for update for all my firefox plugins. I noticed one plugin that I do not remember installing - "sView Browser plugin" :). And I found some information about it at these places ;) :

http://forum.iz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=2134

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5231

It appears it's installed together with the player itself, which is a good thing. And it works great, it probably also can play embedded video that way. So I guess that this easy method could be used as as second option (beside the flash viewer), and a link for such formatted page should be available below the flash viewer (for users with devices, unsupported by the flash version). That will solve the compatibility problems with iz3d displays (if it turns out to be hard to implement in flash), as well as page-flipping based ones (although it depends on the hardware when the software mode is used, as usual ;)), I think it's 3D Vision compatible as well (unless "NVIDIA Direct3D stereo-driver" means the legacy driver :)), but I suspect that it will support HD3D in the future as well (at least I hope so). I hope you guys find this idea useful.

yuriythebest wrote:

kirill wrote:


Cheers all (and especially sView's dev Kirill Gavrilov)


Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:54 pm
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:34 pm
Posts: 2909
Location: Sweden
Really cool! Looking for it's implemention! 8-)

_________________
Mb: Asus P5W DH Deluxe
Cpu: C2D E6600
Gb: Nvidia 7900GT + 8800GTX
3D:100" passive projector polarized setup + 22" IZ3D
Image


Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:17 pm
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 11394
Ok, so I have the alpha version online now. There is not really any GUI, so some functionality cannot be tested even though it works (like swapping the eyes, black & white anaglyph, etc.). Press the arrow keys or spacebar to cycle through images (may take a long while to load, no progress bar yet). Press the "O" key to change output.

http://www.cybereality.com/view3d/

The sample images I am using were taken directly with the iz3D driver, I did not process them in any way.

_________________
check my blog - cybereality.com


Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:01 pm
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:05 pm
Posts: 712
cybereality thank you for your time and efforts in this endeavor. It is appreciated.

I'm surfing to Mtbs3d with my playstation 3 browser on occasion. Sony has a decent not great 3D picture viewer. It seams to only support MPO format images. If this could be incorporated, many with a playstation 3 unit would be able to enjoy th 3D goodness. Heck I don't even know if its practical or possible. But once agian your efforts are appreciated.

cheers everyone

_________________
AMD HD3D
i7
DDD
PS3
Panasonic Plasma VT25 50" (Full HD 3D)
Polk Audio- Surround 7.1
Serving up my own 3D since 1996.
(34) Patents


Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:25 am
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:05 pm
Posts: 712
I should clarify that last comment a little. I'm not trying to view the 3D material in the PS3 browser. I'm saving pictures and trying to view them on my big screen. Once saved I can view them with sony's software. MPO is the format required for some reason. I don't know if thats a common standard or a very proprietary one on sony's part. They have examples of huge panoramic stereo 3D high def. photo's that are pretty nice.

cheers everyone

_________________
AMD HD3D
i7
DDD
PS3
Panasonic Plasma VT25 50" (Full HD 3D)
Polk Audio- Surround 7.1
Serving up my own 3D since 1996.
(34) Patents


Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:27 am
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:06 pm
Posts: 2255
Location: Perpignan, France
The MPO file format is what is used in the Fujifilm cameras, it's also supported by the 3D Vision Photo Viewer and it's been proposed as an open standard by CIPA (Camera & Imaging Products Association).


Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:59 am
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 11394
Yeah, MPO is proprietary, but luckily I have wrote a utility that will convert them into the JPS format:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4419&p=31457

_________________
check my blog - cybereality.com


Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:58 pm
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
   [ 33 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by STSoftware.