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 Silverscreens reviewed! 
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http://www.gardendesign.hu/shop/index.php?lap=88_210
which would be good for blackening the room? Maybe it should hide acoustic damping casettes.
OFF: someone sell me a novint falcon plsssssss!!!!

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Wed May 19, 2010 11:29 am
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Here's a video of a comparison between the silverscreen from formar silverfabric and a selfpainted screen. The silverfabric is a bit worned but on the other hand i haven't got the sprayed layer totally even either. Reading the link to the avsforum i catched that coating the screen with a primer first is good practice. :lol:
Nonetless: I tried to capture both for a direct comparison: The silverfabric is the top and the selfpainted at bottom. The lace in between is simply the rollercurtain used to protect and give a tiny bit support for the silverscreen.
Since it's taken using compactcameras the image became very oversaturated but unfortunately i didn't see until finished and too lazy to cap all over again. :/
http://www.mtbs3d.com/gallery/displayim ... ?pos=-3419 or direct link: http://www.mtbs3d.com/gallery/albums/us ... 2-h264.avi

The gain for the biltema spray is a tad lower than the silverfabric and i think i like it just as well as the silverfabric because of a reduced "glare". The brightness of the image is more "even" over the surface.

Nonethless the primary results my next screen is going to be a homemade. Then i don't have to worry so much about screenwear at birthdayparties etc. Oh, and it's cheaper! :mrgreen:

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Wed May 19, 2010 4:02 pm
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great!!!
First I had problem viewing then I could watch it in winamp browser. Don 't know how should I download it to watch on shutters. Stunning.

Can't you buy this paint in a bigger bottle? Then I could get it sputtered professionally. Also you could send some sweden snuss along :mrgreen: ...

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Wed May 19, 2010 4:31 pm
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You can easily try painting yourself even without projectors and such equipment. You need polarizers though. If you have a real-d cinema (circular polarization) or imax (linear polarization) nearby you can find filters. The real-d ones works as linear if you reverse them (look from wrong direction). Peeling off an lcd polarizer also works but according to some it might be hard. Do not use a working monitor since this operation will render it useless. :P
Start small scale and paint an A4 (find a local paint store). For instance biltema is "specialized" on cheap spareparts for cars and carequipment. The sprays comes only in 400 ml cans and costs about 6 euros each.

It's better if the A4 is black than white. If black then most leaked light (through the paint) will be sucked up by the black paper instead of reflected and loosing polarization (causing extra ghosting).
Testing: Filter the beam from a strong flashlight through one polarizer and shine at the painted A4. If you look through a blocking filter you should not see any or very small reflection from the screen when shining/removing the flashlight. Easy as that. You can of course also try that you won't loose any amount of light when shining as well.

Since i've tried with two different paints (from same company though) and both works great polarizationwise you should have some luck by just testing. One of the paints was for high temperatures (600°C) and the surface is still sticky after two weeks... *reminder: Read the labels.. :roll: The high temp color has way higher gain (more glossy) than the other color and i don't like it. Polarization+extinction works just as good for the high temp as for the other spray though.
Be sure to get "silverish" sprays which sort of gives a metallic matte surface. Gray as colors will most probably not work. For instance biltema has about 4-5 different nuances of what i think is suitable for projection paints (not counting the high temp ones).

Ps: The videocodec is h264 (no soundtrack) and if your player doesn't support it then simply get the k-lite codecpack. It'll let you watch almost every formats by just one install.

ps2: "General" snuff ok? Portion or "lös-snus"? ;)

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Wed May 19, 2010 5:14 pm
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I just had a look at the video and wow.
I didn't expect there to be so little ghosting with a simple silver paint. The blank spacing between the two screen materials provide a great reference to what to llok for, and I can't see any ghosting on both surfaces with the video.

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Thu May 20, 2010 6:42 pm
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It's really an an unbacked winner!!
There is ghosting but you need a ghosting test to see it. In reality it will never bother you or being visible.
And, yeah: I'm also very surprized that paint works so good! It's definitely the way to go for a dual projection diy'er as for me who simply wants to exchange an old wrinkled one.

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Fri May 21, 2010 11:00 am
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How's you find the 3d virtual black ghosts more? (?) Paint has better extinction?

OTherwise the 3d VB is a very nice screen because of its properties. With the paint being so cheap , I think its the best secondary screen , or TV screen.

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Fri May 21, 2010 11:42 am
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My sample is only an A4 but i held it where my standard screen is, showing a checkerboard black white pattern on one projector and watching the sample from backside through a blocking filter. By visually (yes, not measured but it's not needed) comparing how visible the checkerboard was between the silverfabric vs virtual black i was able to estimate. The virtual black ghosts more than the silverscreen (maybe 40-60%) but not as much as with using circular polarization and silverscreen (70-90%). I haven't bothered checking the virtual black and circular (didn't use it by that time). I also felt the material "glares" more (way brighter in the middle area) than the silverscreen but it's very difficult to be certain by such small sample.

Otherwise: Virtual black is a splendid material. It's kind of a rubbercloth. You can bend it, stretch it or whatever: It get's back to it's former shape (my old silverscreen is more or less weared out because of wrinkles etc). I once was really interesting in building a backprojection telly using my beamers and this but it fell on the increased ghosting and (mostly) on the physic size required for 120". Such rig isn't really portable either since i planned to use two mirrors to save space and maximize the image.
Even if ghosting is about 50% higher than using a decent silverscreen i think you'll still get a good experience. Expect some ghosting in high contrast situations. I don't think it will bother you if you aren't too sensisitive.

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Last edited by Likay on Fri May 21, 2010 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri May 21, 2010 1:05 pm
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Well, I want to project thru doorstep... Put PC and DLP into the same silencer "hush box" running on wheels. Then If I want to put "tv" into next room, I flip around the doorstep with the screen, and roll in with the HTPC hush box.

Hotspotting shouldn't be an issue imho. Nice to read about the material's own properties.

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Fri May 21, 2010 1:20 pm
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hi

we ordered a 3,5x2m Harkness screen material.
Yesterday we make the holes on the edge, and when
fully unpacked the screen, we saw, that it has a
horizontal line on it on center, 3.5m size!
It seems that this screen is made from two smaller one,
and connected with glue? :((
Is this ok, every other brand do this?
Will it be visible? Work polarization on this line?

So much price for a glued material :(

Marton


Sat May 22, 2010 1:33 am
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rear projection surely not :?

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Sat May 22, 2010 1:56 am
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By the way these gain values can be entirely compensated for with a diy iris in front of projector , for 2d use.

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Sat May 22, 2010 2:05 am
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tritosine wrote:
By the way these gain values can be entirely compensated for with a diy iris in front of projector , for 2d use.
An adjustable iris as i think of will darken the image more in the periphery. To equalize the image you instead needs to darken the middle zone. A glassplate with a few painted black dots placed just in front of the projectorlense would probably work though.
I think it's better going for a tad lower gain from beginning. If i'm not remember totally wrong my own screen has a gain of 2.4 and the light on 100" emitted off the screen is even a little tad higher than the light from my lcd-monitor. If i would choose a screen for myself i would try getting one with a gain of ~1.5. This might be because i'm using spar-filters for the projectors. They give a very high light throughput from the projectors which could make a tad lower gain desireable.

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Last edited by Likay on Sat May 22, 2010 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat May 22, 2010 5:19 am
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relaxman wrote:
hi

we ordered a 3,5x2m Harkness screen material.
Yesterday we make the holes on the edge, and when
fully unpacked the screen, we saw, that it has a
horizontal line on it on center, 3.5m size!
It seems that this screen is made from two smaller one,
and connected with glue? :((
Is this ok, every other brand do this?
Will it be visible? Work polarization on this line?

So much price for a glued material :(

Marton
I would probably also expect a seamless material but rig it and see how it performs. The screen i have is a silverscreen from former silverfabric. I think it's the same that awater3d sells now but i can't of course be sure. There are no visible seams in it no matter how close you look. I don't know what happens if you order bigger screenmaterials though.
I'm thinking of getting oilcloth material for a painted one but i have trouble finding big enough. Really don't want any seams in it even if it's homemade. Otherwise they're quite cheap: 4 euros/m of 1.4metre wide material. Dunno how well it suits practically though.

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Last edited by Likay on Sat May 22, 2010 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat May 22, 2010 6:54 am
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A diy iris helps on - off contrast, and you can use some filter ahead of it too . I imagine I could do around 3-4000 contrast with iris mod if needed, so it would look good on 3d VB . Light can be cut further upon by additional means too. Commercial E-IPS LCD have 1000 contrast, my TV will be much better than that.

That silverfabric stuff was sold to the european news agency too, some huge size. Wonder how those wrinkles look if any. :o

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Sat May 22, 2010 6:57 am
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Lol. Ok. Still don't get how an iris cures the glaring while using polarization since it's used to regulate light only. Besides: Most often an adjustable iris darkens the image in the periphery first thus actually making the phenomena worse.

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Sat May 22, 2010 11:35 am
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I doubt its hotspotting in the first place.I never told Diy iris solves hotspotting, but my pj has a lot of light to compensate for, 2100 lumens measured. This goes with 2600 contrast. Im going for better contrast but less light that means diy iris in my book.
Polarization film, I read you can get those with 5000:1 dynamic range. But where? Those cheap give 2000:1 as far I could calculate.

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Sat May 22, 2010 2:31 pm
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It's certainly hotspotting (the screen is experienced brightwer in the middle than in the sides, i called it glare in loss of better words). Oversee please, i'm swede. ;) . This increases with higher gain and or closer viewing distance to the screen. By checking the parameters for the virtual black it has a gain of 3.0 which indeed means a more narrow viewing angle.
Gain is not only about how much light that's reflected from the screen. It's also how the light is spread and too high gain will cause hotspotting. If you already have an annoying amount of hotspotting there's no way to compensate with an iris but try a glassplate and paint some dots on it. It has to be very close to projectorlense (dots in the centre of the lense) or else the dots would be visible. It's not really a viable option for one who wants an image of good quality though.
To cure glaring caused by high gain the only practical solutions are moving further away from the screen, decrease the size of the projected image or curve the screen. If you check the video above i think you can notice that the image is brighter in the centre than in the edges. It's far from annoying levels but i don't wish it to be more.
Dynamic range mentioned with polarizationfilters confuses me. I thought dynamic range is values for cameras and in this case it depends on your eyes and projector.

The most interesting parameter of filters is the polarizationratio and secondly the transmissioncurve for the colors. General rule is using simply grayish filters. If blue or other colors they'll interfere in a similar way to the image.
If not using too crappy filters the most depolarizing element in a passive rig is the silverscreen. I think mine has 80 and this might be quite the same for others. I'm too lazy to check now so i might be a tad wrong about it.

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Sat May 22, 2010 4:02 pm
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This ratio should give the difference between the two extremes, brightest and the darkest.

...in audio, Im sure about this one. So hotspotting is a problem for you? Wow. IDK. Apparently , the best would be very very bright projection onto dark grey.

3dVB has 99% non depolarizing stuff.

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Sat May 22, 2010 4:21 pm
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relaxman wrote:
hi

we ordered a 3,5x2m Harkness screen material.
Yesterday we make the holes on the edge, and when
fully unpacked the screen, we saw, that it has a
horizontal line on it on center, 3.5m size!
It seems that this screen is made from two smaller one,
and connected with glue? :((
Is this ok, every other brand do this?
Will it be visible? Work polarization on this line?

So much price for a glued material :(

Marton

That seems abnormal to me especially for such a high quality product, unless you were notified through any part of the screen specification that there would be a seam you should have been expecting a seamless screen. You should double-check all the specs, infos and terms of sale you have with Harkness and write them an email to notify them of this.

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Sun May 23, 2010 6:41 am
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Hopefully once I have my new screen, Im getting back to this topic with something like this:
Image
:mrgreen:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8247958

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Last edited by tritosine5G on Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed May 26, 2010 2:12 am
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Couple of more that could be added:

1.) Stewart Disney Black rear projection material - I've got a few of these, really one of my favorites. Really needs a frame as it is a stretchy rubber material. Don't know what the SOP is for a review here?

2.) Draper Silver Lenticular front projection - Long out of production, but I have quite a bit. Been selling rolled fabric through VRtifacts and Ebay for sometime. Works best with linear polarized systems, good extinction, rolls OK, clean with soapy water. The lenticular grooves are slightly visible close up. Brief summary: only 72" wide, but any length, good visual results with linear polarization, inexpensive, samples available. Draper used this material to make their portable 3D roll-up screens. </End_Advert>

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Stewart Disney Black rear projected with circular polarization

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I just thought of a very cheap source for aluminized fabric. Jo-Ann's Fabrics [a chain of fabric and craft stores in the U.S.] sells aluminized cotton fabric, which is normally used as ironing board covers. It costs $7 per yard for 44" wide fabric.

http://www.joann.com/joann/catalog/prod ... D=prd10219

I do not have a projector, and have never tried this material as a projection surface. One problem you may have is removing wrinkles. I don't know if ironing will work.

Joe Dunfee


Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:36 am
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Thats a lottery. I bought a thin MDF wooden sheet with one side prepainted with white matte. Tried it for fun, and its so defocused / bad / compared to the blackout cloth I bought from USA , I threw it out of sight immidietly.

Rhttp://readalert.atw.hu/THE_ULTRA_HIGH_GAIN_SCREEN.pdf <~ im goin to give this a try.

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Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:59 am
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I've sent an email to Peroni Head office in Italy to ask prices on Monday and haven't recieved an answer yet. How long did it take when you contacted them ?

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Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:29 am
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I just got my Peroni screen yesterday, and it's not that good.. well for the price(10.50€+20%tax per linear meter, 210cm wide) it's great but i get around 20% ghosting on circular AND linear.

the problem is that behind the silver layer, there's just the white base material, so some 20% of the light shines through the silver and reflects off the white base, and thus becomes depolarized. It's "okay" for watching 3d content, but certainly not good.

I've actually sent them an email about this earlier today, asking them(well, i sort of just told them that it's better) to change their manufacturing process to insert a black "blackout layer" between the white and the silver, but i'm not sure they'll care. When i asked them BEFORE my order they said that it's not possible to change the manufacturing process, even though they ARE making the stuff in their own factory.


maybe if we all sent out emails asking about this, they'd change their product line and we'd all get great screens for cheap :D

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Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:45 pm
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Too bad to hear. It's impossible to change afterwards by trying to paint the screen black on the backside. It just won't work. :(
The common misperception that white primer is best with all screens including nondepolarizing screens is very unfortunate. Every ounce of light that manages through the aluminiumcoating needs to be absorbed totally because if reflected off the white primer it'll loose the polarization thus inducing ghosting... Simple as that. I had quite some arguments about it but even if i prove it by painting a white and a black paper with alupaint and compare polarizationproperties this misunderstanding still persists for some...

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Last edited by Likay on Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:04 pm
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yeah, that's why i'm trying to get them to change the process :)

well, you probably won't notice at all during 3d movies, but playing Portal(VERY high contrasts and blacks on white) you'll see it. But 2x2d(like playing split-screen multiplayer, but on the SAME screen) is just impossible.



BTW: i was looking for a ghosting test image that would make it easy to read out accurate values, but i couldn't find it so i made one instead. It has marked grayscales for white-on-black and black-on-white ghosting, and unmarked visual-only gradients for red/green/blue ghosting.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:21 pm
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Sorry for the double post, but i just want to say that i've gotten used to the Peroni screen, and now i think i may have exaggerated my previous statements :D It's very cheap and totally does the job for 3d projection. Ghosting levels aren't top-notch, but there are only a few scenes in every movie where you'll actually notice. That's basically only when there are very bright into-screen or out-of-screen objects on a dark backdrop.

I've measured my total extinction ratio to be at about 1:20 to 1:30 on circular filters, but this is using two completely different projectors so there's a huge margin for error. It is the same for left/right eyes though so it seems pretty accurate to me.


The peroni's also better for 2d viewing(higher contrast) than my pure matte white 1.0 gain rollable projector screen, so that's always something. It's pretty dark though, seems to have only about 1.0 gain as the image looks just as bright as on the white one(tested by pulling the rollable down halfway over the peroni).

I'll probably get some other silver screen some day, but for now i'm OK with this one.

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Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:52 pm
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you can also use a spinning wheel and 2x projectors + shutter and glass beaded fp or RP screen, that's really good 2d screen too with 3x gain.

Im too somewhat tired of silver for 2d now. Games on 2d would be somewhat *gah*

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Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:21 am
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Quite old topic, but if you read it, it doesn't matter :lol:

I have a Harkness Spectral 240 screen and a DIY frame for mobile 3d projection.
Problem is the assembly time: it need almost 1 hour.
I thinked about a rollable silver screen in 2-2.5 meter wide size.
Are they exist?

I found the the DaLite Versatol 3D Silver 213x213cm for $182 at Berezin.
Anybody use it, and has some experiences?
Ghosting, brightness, viewing angle, etc..
Or should i stay with my Harkness?

thanks!


Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:36 am
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Roll-up window shades are available that large, but they are definitely heavier duty than your typical household blind. They will cost more than the screen you are talking about. You will need to talk to a window blind company to special order it.

What takes so long about your existing portable screen?

I have been thinking about how best to handle a large rear-projection screen. Here is an untested idea;

Find a truss wide enough, and attach the screen permanently across the truss. The arrangement would be hung on a pair of tripods. To pack it, I would need to team up with one helper to manually rotate the truss, and wrap up the screen around it. The bottom of the screen would need either a pipe type of baton, or maybe just a chain weight in the hem. There would probably need to be some side tensioners. But, a simple clip on a length of elastic may be sufficient. Though the tensioner could not be very strong, or I would risk upsetting the tripods.

I just had another thought. The photography industry has been creating portable backdrops for a long time. I have not looked at their solutions, but they may have exactly what you want.

-Joe


Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:20 am
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Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!

Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:07 am
Posts: 204
Location: Hungary
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Roll-up window shades for my current material is not a solution,
surface has to be fully flat, without any wave.

What takes so long?

- place some material on the floor (often it's dirty).
- assembly the frame with screws.
- roll out the silverscreen carefully
- tighten it with rubbers (no waves!)
- decide the height, and assembly the legs

This is 40-50 min. at best!
And fortunately we have 3-4 screening in different locations per week.

Here is my screen :)
Image


Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:49 am
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