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 Mitsubishi 73" or Viera VT25 50"? 
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Two Eyed Hopeful
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Ok, so I stopped by my local Best Buy store to try these two TV's out, but I'm still not sure which one I want.

I watched the Mitsubishi 73" first in 3D, every once in a while the glasses would loose sync even when not even moving my head. Is this a common issue with this TV? Low batteries in glasses? other TV's affecting my glasses? I would almost say that it seemed a bit "framey" when the camera would pan quickly. I am also concerned that because this tv needs a separate box to convert the signal, that there might be some delay in that signal (I want to use my PS3 in 3D). Do I need a conversion box for each HDMI connection?

I then proceeded to look at the Viera (in this case I saw the VT20, not the VT25 that I want). I thought it was pretty smooth with quick pan camera motion, but the 3d effect was minimal (n3D channel was on during the demo, so maybe that's why?)

So my choices are:
Get a cheaper ($1099), larger, 73" DLP, that "seems" to have low frame rate.
or
Get a much more expensive ($1750) and smaller 50" Panasonic with a smooth frame rate, and assurance that my PS3 connection will have no latency.

Any input on my concerns would be very much appreciated!

~edit~
I looked up the specs, whats the difference between:
120Hz Sub-Frame Rate (Mitsubishi)
600hz Refresh rate (Viera vt25)


Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:02 am
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Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
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I'll let you decide. But I think you need premium image quality for maximum 3D. Both good choices though. So have fun shopping.

cheers everyone

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Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:54 am
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Terrif-eying the Ladies!
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qgR PR

I MEAN , what framerate? :o :shock:

don't buy talk like this and stuff like dlp needs like 4 bulbs , that's all bs, DLP has the best framerate on earth and instant pixel switch rate they use it for micromachine fabrication

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Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:49 am
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Two Eyed Hopeful
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tritosine wrote:
qgR PR

I MEAN , what framerate? :o :shock:

don't buy talk like this and stuff like dlp needs like 4 bulbs , that's all bs, DLP has the best framerate on earth and instant pixel switch rate they use it for micromachine fabrication



The frame rate at which the glasses switch between the two views (left and right). It seemed to be visible, but perhaps it was just sync issues?


Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:22 am
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3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
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Well I have seen both TVs in the store, but sadly the Mitsubishi had broken 3D glasses so I could not see the 3D demo. It did look pretty good in 2D, though. The Panasonic VT25 I have seen in 3D and for a while it was the best thing I had ever seen. That was until I saw the 60" Sony XBR60LX900, which blew me out of the water, but at $5,000 it had better. Its not even on my radar at that price range. In terms of your choice, it is hard to say. Personally I would go with the Mitsubishi I think. The screen is obviously way bigger and its almost half the price. Those are 2 huge pluses right there. DLP also has extremely low ghosting, although the ghosting on the Panasonic plasma is also good in comparison to LCD. The checkerboard format of the Mitsubishi is actually an advantage if you are planning on using a PC. The 3D drivers all have support for checkerboard mode and people that have seen it swear it looks way better than using HDMI 1.4 at 720P (which you need for gaming). You can always get the converter box for HDMI 1.4 sources like PS3, although you will need to manually switch the cable if you have more than one HDMI 1.4 3D source component. But even on some of the newer HDMI 1.4 3D HDTVs, I believe only one HDMI port is active for 3D. So you will still have this problem unless you buy an HDMI 1.4 3D compatible A/V receiver.

What I can say is that watching 1080P 3D Blu-Ray will almost surely look better on the Panasonic. I also think the colors and black levels were better on the Panasonic (just comparing 2D content). So in that respect the VT25 might have an edge in picture quality. But they both look pretty good, its not like the Mitsubishi looks bad or anything. Keep in mind that both TVs (and basically any 3D HDTV on the market) still only refresh at 120Hz in 3D mode. The sub-frame/sub-field refresh rates are not really too important in this respect. In all cases they can only accept a 60Hz signal no matter what (if its a 3D signal than the TV can run at 120Hz since the source material is passing 2 frames at 60Hz). You are not going to get a 600Hz refresh rate (meaning 600 unique frames) any way you slice it. Although there are some TVs that have this motion-smoothing interpolation, like the Samsung UN55C8000, which runs at 240Hz (in 2D mode) and looks absolutely stunning. The smoothest refresh rate I have ever seen, even smoother than real-life. However in 3D mode it will be locked at 120Hz, which is only 60Hz per eye. The TV also costs like $3,500 so go figure. So I don't know what to tell you, its not an easy decision. Especially when you factor in any sort of lag caused by the Mitsubishi converter box (not a problem for movies probably, but I don't know about games). There should be no problem with the glasses losing sync. I bet this was just interference in the store or something. Other than that the decision is up to you. Had I been able to see the Mitsubishi in 3D, maybe I could give a better opinion. I am just going off what I've read in the forums.

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Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:45 pm
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Two Eyed Hopeful
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Thanks cybereality!

That was very informative. After quite a bit of researching yesterday I found out that the "838" series Mitsubishi 73" has a firmware upgrade to support HDMI 1.4a natively. In addition, I found the DLP Link glasses to be quite a bit cheaper than proprietary shutter glasses from the major brands. (nearly %50 less!). The 838 version is $1700. (still a great price for the size)

How does this checkerboard 3d work? I mean, does it reduce the resolution like interlaced does or do I get full 1080p in both eyes like the Panasonic claims?

Unfortunately, when they demoed the Mitsubishi in store, they had a 3D Space/Nasa movie of some sort, mostly displaying only black with not much color. I'll have to go back in and get a better idea of the colors in 2d mode.

In general though, you think the DLP tv's don't have as good colors?


Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:08 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

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The checkerboard format does diagonally reduce resolution, but the TV uses Quincunx sampling to fill in the missing pixels to give each eye a full resolution picture. I have the 65" LaserVue DLP and I can only notice checkerboard artifacts in game with some of the smaller fonts on in game text. 3D Blurays and PS3 Games work great through the 3D adapter. As for the lag with the adapter I actually play Wipeout HD Fury better in 3D than I ever have in 2D, meaning I'm winning races now ;)

I can't comment on the color reproduction of lamp based DLP TVs in 3D. My father has an older 50" Samsung Lamp DLP and I have not seen the rainbow effect that is a side effect of the color wheel. I guess running in 3D mode and looking through shutter glasses could make it easier to see the rainbow effect, but I have no experience with Lamp DLP or LED DLP TVs in 3D.

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Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:43 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

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Here is a image that kind of explains how Quincunx sampling is used in AA, but it also applies to checkerboard 3D and filling in the missing pixels. So ignore the first bit of text on the image as it does not apple to checkerboard 3D, but the second bit does.


Image


Link to the tomshardware article explaining how AA works, and where I got the image from.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high,294-23.html

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Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:29 pm
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Well checkerboard is technically a half-resolution format. The source material takes 2 1080P views and combines that into one frame, meaning that each view is only getting half the number of pixels. However, when the image is displayed on the screen it does not appear to be half-resolution, like you get with interlaced monitors (Zalman, etc.). This is because the image is re-constructed by the TV, and the use of quincunx sampling produces something that is very close to the original image (but obviously not exact). So you are indeed losing information, but it isn't as bad as 50% loss. What you see on screen is still perceived as a full resolution image, even if it is not as sharp or detailed as the original source. So that gets back to my comment of the VT25 having better quality with 1080P 3D Blu-Rays. The situation gets a little more complicated where you start talking about gaming, which is only at 720P. So the VT25 must take this 720P image and upscale it to 1080P for display. On the Mitsubishi, the converter box (or conversion firmware) will take the 720P image, upscale it to 1080P, combine the two frames into checkerboard 1080P for transmission, then recreate the missing 50% of the pixels before display. So, either way, you are looking at an upscaled image that has been interpolated somehow. Its not clear there will be a huge difference. Again, I've never seen this in person. I am just basing this on what I know about the technology. The perception could be very different.

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Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:47 pm
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Two Eyed Hopeful
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Thanks!

This has been very helpful to me.
The difference in size isn't as important to me personally as the quality of the image and since both displays showed virtually no ghosting, I think I'll be going with the VT25.


Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:52 am
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