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 Thinking of taking the plunge.... Is DLP still worthy? 
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Two Eyed Hopeful
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I think I have a natural bias towards DLP, so keep that in mind as you read this (and when I argue when I'm told DLP isn't the way to go. :P ).

<Background>
I have a 53" CRT RP HDTV now, and still love the picture. IMHO, it's smooth and cleaner than what I see on flat 1080p displays. My friend has a Mits 65" CRT RP HDTV, and has a similar opinion. Neither of us are "envious" of the modern, flat 1080p displays. I simply like the IQ and picture from my TV. (not saying 1080p LCD looks bad, but most all flat displays look over sharpened and grainy, and certainly not any improvement in IQ worth thousands of $$ to upgrade from my 6-year old CRT set.) I said all of that because when I see DLPs, they seem to capture that same smooth/clean picture I'm accustomed to. Dunno if it's because it's a RP technique? Dunno what it is, but I think that's part of why I'm partial to DLP over LCD/Plasma.

When I get a new TV it will be at least 65" (I've got my eye on the 73" Mits DLPs). I have a viewing distance of ~11 ft. and I can't imagine getting anything smaller than my current 53", but for 3D I'd want much larger.
</Background>

So, I keep seeing the Mits 65" and 73" dangling there for $899/$1299 and am SO ready to bite. (I know there are other expenses for the converter and glasses, etc).

I know the DLP sets use the checkerboard format, and I'd even posted images and analysis in this forum that show (using real world examples), that even tho technically the resolution of the images is halved (for the checkerboard), that in many cases the information that's "cut out" is easily recreated from the surrounding information (obviously not in all cases, particularly when neighboring pixels are high contrast, but when it's shaded color gradients, etc, the color information is virtually perfectly reproduced from the bicubic sampling of the checkerboard information). See the following thread for image samples and results:

viewtopic.php?p=44166#p44166

I also have a PS3. It's all updated and ready to go. I've even got some 3D BDs already. So, should I:

* Go for the low-cost DLP rig and just ride it out for the next 4 years or so enjoying everything I can.

or

* Hold on to my cash, and wait it out a little longer?

I hear Vizio and other vendors are about to announce their 3D sets that will allow you to use the same circular polarized glasses RealD uses in theaters (which I've got probably 10 pairs of, including kids sizes for my boys). How will that shake out? I know there's no way I can afford $4K for a 65" plasma 3D rig, and frankly I'm not convinced it would yield any more superior 3D experience than the 73" DLP rig would for 1/2 the price!! Given what I've seen in the forums about crosstalk on LCD/plasma, perhaps, DLP is still the best choice for my needs (mostly 3D movies and perhaps some gaming on PS3, maybe some 3D TV from satellite?).

Okay......... enough babbling. Any input (for or against DLP) welcomed. :D

GoldChain

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Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:42 pm
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I do not have any experience with 3D DLP, but I have heard very good things. Supposedly ghosting is low and the 3D effect is nice. I know a friend of mine has a 60" 2D DLP RP 1080P HDTV (a Sony from a few years back) and it looks simply phenomenal. We watched the Iron Man blu-ray and it had some of the best picture quality I have seen (aside from the Panasonic VT25 3D plasma, that one is sick). I was looking at getting one of the Mitsubishi DLPs myself, the price is certainly there. For the size and quality there is really no comparison. Surely there are thinner displays, or ones with better resolution (ie not checkerboard), but from a price-to-performance standpoint that is hard to beat. If you get one of the 2010 models, they have a firmware update that adds support for HDMI 1.4a, so you do not need the converter: http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/3Dupgrade.html

Personally, after almost buying the old Mitsu 60"er, I changed my mind and decided I wanted a projector. Seeing as you can get a 720P DLP 3D projector for under $600 and get a 100" screen or more (if you have a big room). This seems like a much better proposition to me. However I don't really have the space in my room, so if I got a beamer I would need to put it in the living room. It would fit, but it would mean I would need another gaming rig just for that. So while I can afford the projector alone, I cannot afford to build a $1600+ PC just to drive it. All research exploring wireless or long-range cabling solutions have hit a dead-end. So I am just going to stick with my trusty 22" Zalman, and wait for some 1080P HDMI 1.4 3D projectors to hit the market. However, if you have the money and the space, there are some nice solutions out there today.

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:03 am
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IMHO,in CONUS, the choice is definately between 720p front projection + silver/ hi power screen, or DLP RPTV. This is the consensus over avsforum as far I saw.
I have the former in europe, screen fabric cost me bout 100 usd with shipping for a 100" slice. Usually over avsforum you 'll see DLP recommended for CRT fans ( Im a fan too). :mrgreen:


Since you are a CRT supporter you probably know now that fullHD spec is rather funny. Image quality plus distance is tad more important. Let me assure you , 720p DLP, viewed 3.5 meter away, is definately on the strong side of what 's available, I can't see no goddamn pixels in 3d. Of course this depends on the 3d material , but for gaming , 720p is nothing to be ashamed of / subpar. Now I don ' t know what is the real resolution per eye with RPTV's, but 720p with DLP is Wow-i-want-no-more this has to do with different perception in 3d.
Compared to DLP RPTV , FP, other 3DTV's seem worthless battle thralls IMO, its their first line (seems rebadged 2d), while DLP is in the 3d biz for long. Also it's in the schools already.

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Last edited by tritosine5G on Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:50 am, edited 2 times in total.



Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:29 am
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Quote:
1080P HDMI 1.4 3D


Why ? I think Those will be 3500 usd and more ( 250w bulb will be hella expensive too) , and you won't get "fullHD 3d 120hz" either, hdmi resolution limitation still applies. You are a gamer , I know you goin to use it at 720p........ :lol:

(screen is more important!)

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:42 am
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tritosine wrote:
Why ? I think Those will be 3500 usd and more ( 250w bulb will be hella expensive too) , and you won't get "fullHD 3d 120hz" either, hdmi resolution limitation still applies. You are a gamer , I know you goin to use it at 720p........ :lol:

I meant to say when 1080P60 is supported (it is technically in the HDMI 1.4a spec). It would be trivial for Nvidia/AMD to implement this support in their existing drivers so its really just about which CEMs are going to bring this out first. I would also like to watch 3D Blu-Ray at the full possible quality (which I have seen on the Panasonic VT25 and it looks absolutely stunning). Not to mention all the 2D content (movies, general computing, etc.) that will work fine in 1080P and look great. Personally I would probably be happy even with a 720P@120Hz 3D projector. Surely its a step up from my Zalman "half-resolution" display that I am quite happy with. And for gaming right now, either on PS3 or with PC via HDMI 1.4, 720P is as good as it gets. So if you are buying today then that is totally acceptable. However if I do build a 3D home theater, I want to make it last for some time. Of course "future-proofing" is a moving target and practically impossible in this industry. But if I am investing the money I want to have the best, and if that means having the wait a year or so for the standards to be fully implemented then I will do so.

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:42 am
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FullHD is terribly overrated. Even for 2d.

Darkchip3 is insanely good at 720p . Anyway, my hi-end 16:10 CRT soon to arrive will do 1650*1080 or something at 110hz, I can decide if pixel density is worth pursuing.

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Last edited by tritosine5G on Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:50 pm
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http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=188758 wrote:
I will agree with other posts here that the 720 p is as good as 1080 , I own a optoma HD20 in my house for movies but i also have the HD66 for flight sim,with 3d . So i put the 2 against each other ,hardly tell the difference except the hd66 is $500.00 less.
I have watched monsters vs aliens 3d and the Imax Under the sea WOW what POPout. I used FabDVD to convert the Bluray files to MKV and then used Power dvd ultra for watching on the 8ft curved screen with 3d , my friends cant believe how clear it is and I say no ghosting even better than REAL3d.
So you want to wait for what? to spend 3-$5000.00 for a 1080P . Just about all satalite and cable hd is only 720p anyways.
Just my 2 cents worth.

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:55 pm
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The question of resolution is different depending on who you ask... For me the step from 720 to 1080 does not justify the framerateloss or loss in quality because graphic settings elsewhere has to be turned down. I wouldn't mind 1080 but it's certainly not the highest priority on my list...

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:59 pm
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Okay....... I'd been to the stores to see the DLPs before, but went back today to refresh my memory.

Freakin' WOW! The whole Mits DLP line was great, from the 60" to the 65", 73", and 82". They only had the 638, 738, and 838 models (no C-series, which the sales guy said was last years' "value" model that was replaced this year by the 638 series).

But every model had the brightness, color, and sharpness cranked!! (and 3 larger expensive models moreso and from a distance it made them look "better"). I got a remote from him, adjusted everything to mid-line (i.e. 32 of 64, or 50 of 100 depending on the model), and even with the "Deep Field Imaging" and "Edge Enhancement" turned on the 738 and 838, it looked the same as the 638 when all other settings were the same.

And after adjusting "down" the sets, all of them had a very smooth, filmlike quality about them (compared to the other sets that were still jacked up looked like you were watching "video" compared to a film production".

So the local store wants $200 more for the 73638 ($1499) + tax (~$127!!) than I can get the same unit on TigerDirect.com ($1299) with no tax and free shipping!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So let me turn my question to 3D:

According to the Mits site, only their 738 and 838 models have the software upgrade that would eliminate the external converter box. Looking at prices of the 73738 and 73838, they add MUCH more than $100 to the cost of the set, so I think I will stick with the 73638 + $100 converter (assuming it supports all of the modes the software update provides to the 738/838 models).

Glasses: If I buy the converter separately, what models of glasses can I use? I'd see someone reference the 10+ year old Elsa (Which I believe had back in the day doing 3D on the PC). They support 50-140Hz, so they should work, and are only like $50/pair!! I'd love any input on choices for glasses with the Mits DLPs. (I know there are DLP Link glasses, but they're like $150/pair and I'd like to not tie myself to DLP if I don't have to).

Thanks for all of the input. I think I may pull the trigger once I figure out what all components I need and where I'll get them.

Thanks!
GC

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:29 pm
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Well, for me, I have owned a 720P HDTV for years now (think I got it in late-2006/early-2007) and my highest resolution PC monitor has been at 1680x1050. With 3D on the Zalman, I am only getting half-resolution per eye: 1680x525. I have seen 1080P 3D on the Panasonic VT25, and the image quality blows my Zalman out the water. It is not even questionable how huge of a leap this is. I believe 720P 3D would be a slight upgrade from the Zalman, however in terms of pixel detail: not so much. For example:

Zalman 22" 3D: 1680 x 525 = 882,000 of pixel data
720P 3D: 1280 x 720 = 921,600 of pixel data
1080P 3D: 1920 x 1080 = 2,073,600 of pixel data

Clearly 1080P is *technically* over twice as good quality. Meaning it has the potential to look twice as detailed, twice as crisp, twice as clear. And, as I have said before, I saw the Panasonic 50" 3D plasma, it does look that good. Now you can argue that your living room is 100 meters deep, or that somehow the human eye cannot process past 1080P (which is bogus, why do movies use 4K then?), but at the end of the day 1080P is simply higher quality. I have actually gotten into arguments with a guy at work who claims the human eye cannot see past 60Hz and gives me some bunk medical reasons. I have actually played games on a CRT at like 100Hz and I have ran 3D with shutter glasses at 170Hz. I can see the difference. Just like I have seen the difference with 1080P 3D. I don't need to see any junk science, I have seen it with my own eyes. If you want to argue price-to-performance, then you have got something there. In terms of bang-for-your-buck, 720P will win all-day, everyday. But on pure technical merit, 1080P is just superior, no questions asked.

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:43 pm
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if my pj was 1080p, and it had +30% zoom , I could make use of 1080p , It wouldnt be any better for me , cuz the amount I see thru my glasses is just enough. So therefore 1080p is not superior in this case, but 720p DLP & LASER light engine @ 1khz would be Smokin' Jesus Titty Cinnamon superior . Happy trippin ' new year ...!

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Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:38 am
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Kind of a late reply but here is a list of glasses that should work with the Mitsubishi DLP TVs.

For compatible glasses you can try these generics,
http://www.ultimate3dheaven.com/dlp3dwiglfis.html


The official Samsung Glasses
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-SSG-2100AB-Battery-Glasses-Black/dp/B0039T7LJC/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1294435858&sr=8-3

Or any glasses that are labeled as DLP-Link I believe.

Xpand
http://www.amazon.com/Sharp-X102-Xpand-Shutter-Glasses/dp/B003FBO7JQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1294434865&sr=8-3

Optima
http://www.amazon.com/Optoma-BG-ZD101-Glasses-Interchangeable-Pieces/dp/B003Q96CCC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1294434865&sr=8-1

ViewSonic
http://www.amazon.com/ViewSonic-PGD-150-Stereographic-Shutter-Projectors/dp/B003ES5BJU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1294434865&sr=8-2

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Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:33 pm
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So I finally did it. Today I ordered a WD-73C10. I looked around, read forums, downloaded manuals, etc, and aside from a cosmetic difference (i.e. the case is a little different.... more rounded bevel on the bottom on the 738), the C10 and 638 are exactly the same set. However most places want $300+ more for the 73638 compared to the 73C10. So be it.

Needless so say, I ordered the TV, the 3DA-1 converter, and 2 pairs of the UltraClear DLP Link glasses from Ultra 3D Heaven. So once I get everything, I'll report back my findings/opinions on those.

So, ZalmoxisX, thanks for your list of glasses. I've got quite a list that's impressive for the Mitsubishi and Samsungs........ nice they can do both IR and DLP Link. Here's the small list I'd compiled.

Vendor Model Type Price Standard Battery?
Viewsonic PGD-150 DLP-Link $99 Yes - CR2032 x 2
Xpand X102 DLP-Link $129 No
Xpand X103 IR $129 Yes - CR2032 x 2
NXG NXG-3DG IR $69 Yes - CR2032 x 1
UltraClear DLP-Link $59 Yes - CR2032 x 1
UltraClear IR $59 Yes - CR2032 x 1
Optoma BG-ZD101 DLP-Link $99 Yes - CR2032 x 2

I decided to do DLP Link (and save the $40 on the IR emitter and 1 more thing that could go bad). Given that you can't do DLP Link glasses and IR at the same time (well, let me be clear, you CAN use both at once, however, there's a (IMHO "very") slight discoloration seen by the IR glasses viewers when DLP Link is turned on), I wanted to start with 2 pair fo UltraClear, but when I get more, I'm going to explore the other ones. Since I'm limiting myself to DLP Link, That leaves 3 other brands (in this list) I could choose from. It's sad as I'd like to try the Xpand ones, but do NOT want to get something I can't just buy and change batteries. (I have enough crap with proprietary batteries to charge: cellphones, iPod, PS3 controllers, BlueTooth headset, etc).

So I'll be sure to post an update later when I get to try the UltraClears and once I decide which to try next.

GC

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Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:18 pm
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Congratulation GoldChain, I believe you'll get years and years of stereo 3D goodness. Might I suggest a few great 3D movie and game titles. Bolt and Dispicable Me are great movies for you and your kids, and there are many more. 3D blu-rays are incredible. On the PS3 gaming front there's also, Motor storm 3D rift. Though I'll forwarn you that as the game fire up there is a motor cycle rider that will flip you the bird. GT5 is also a great racing title with great off the screen 3D. Tune your 3D for this game during actual game play for best results. Some the other in game menu's suffer double vision issues. But actual racing 3D is spot on. There are also, movies at the sony playstation store for rent for around $5-$6. Bolt is one of them. Agian congratulation.

And welcome to modern home 3D. Its a fun ride.

cheers everyone

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Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:44 am
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Thanks Chiefwinston! I'm really looking forward to this. I've been a stereo/3D fan for quite a while...... We go to DisneyWorld every year on vacation, and as an avid prosumer-level photographer, WDW has PLENTY of smoking photo opportunities. So one year, I took almost nothing but stereo pictures (with a single DSLR camera, so many photos suffer some ghosting from people moving around and such). Even got many stereo time-exposures of the main "park icons" at night (i.e. the castle in Magic Kingdom, Spaceship Earth in EPCOT, etc). So the quality of 3D movies in the theaters the past few years has been exciting and now having that at home is going to totally rock.

I've got a PS3 and it's all updated and ready........ and I got for Christmas "Christmas Carol" 3DBD, and Despicable Me 3DBD (I'd decided if I was going to buy a movie that had an option of 3DBD, I was going to buy the 3DBD regardless if not being able to use it YET!)

I just ordered Coraline 3DBD and have my eye on Monsters vs Aliens 3DBD on eBay (not going to pay tons.... Avatar's consistently going for $100+.... crazy!)

So yeah, I'll check into the Motor Storm or GT5. (I think I had a demo of Motor Storm (the non-3D version) and it was alot of fun and the graphics were great.)

TOO EXCITED!!!

GC

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Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:12 am
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My family and I loved Dispicable Me in 3D. I enjoy home 3D blu-rays more than my high quality local movie theaters. The 3D just looks better to me at home. I'm pleased that a good selection of kids and family oriented 3D blu-rays are finally becoming avialable. I'm looking forward to your future posts, and how about a 3D photo once your all set up.

cheers everyone

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Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:20 pm
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Chiefwinston wrote:
My family and I loved Dispicable Me in 3D. I enjoy home 3D blu-rays more than my high quality local movie theaters. The 3D just looks better to me at home. I'm pleased that a good selection of kids and family oriented 3D blu-rays are finally becoming avialable. I'm looking forward to your future posts, and how about a 3D photo once your all set up.

cheers everyone


Yes. We were able to take the boys to see Toy Story 3D this summer, and MegaMind 3D also. (I took my oldest son to see Despicable Me 3D alone as the younger one tends to lose attention span for feature length movies.... he's 3 and a half..... to be expected) So, it' nice that those movies are making their way to 3DBD.

I just picked up Coraline 3DBD (w/2DBD, DVD, etc) and Monsters vs Aliens 3DBD off eBay for a combined $70 shipped. A bit more that I'd like to pay off the shelf for 3DBD, but given the limited availability of MvA, I was okay with paying a few more $$. So now we have 4 3DBD to watch! :D

I'll have to update my signature soon to reflect my new stereo status. :shutter

GC

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Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:15 pm
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Chiefwinston wrote:
On the PS3 gaming front there's also, Motor storm 3D rift. Though I'll forwarn you that as the game fire up there is a motor cycle rider that will flip you the bird. GT5 is also a great racing title with great off the screen 3D.


So I mentioned I thought I'd played that.......... so yes. I'd downloaded a demo of Motor Storm Pacific Rift, which 3D Rift apparently is just the 3D "enabled" version. I love the way that game, particularly on replays, uses that "zoom" effect to show some of the action (it's like a real camera that's far away zoomed in.... a common effect in movies these days). Amazon has this game for $10!!!

http://www.amazon.com/MotorStorm-Rift-O ... B0040NQ8G8

You buy it, then use the code to d/l it from the Playstation Store (which makes me want to check the PS store to see how much they want for it.). So if this is what it appears to be, then I'll have that game for sure. :D

This older game looks like it'd be a blast in 3D also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NwuVfovJHA

I can't wait for my TV to arrive!!!!

GC

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Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:20 pm
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I think you already know. But I'll clarify it just in case. MotorStorm 3D Rift is not the same game as Pacific Rift. 3D Rift has less cars and motorcycles than Pacific Rift, and less game modes. I have both games. I only play 3D rift now. The 3D and general game play are very very good for a $10 game. A good value in my book. GT5 allows for a way off the screen 3D effect. Many of the games and movies are of the way into the TV 3D effect. GT5 can be set up to come way out of the TV. And is a good example of that type of 3D effect. For me GT5 gives the illusion of coming out about 5 feet from the screen- very nice. Also, Aliens vs Monsters is awesome. I rarely watch movies more than once. But I'm finding I watch these 3D blu-ray 3-4 times in one evening. They are that good to me. A big screen probably helps though.

cheers everyone

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Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:03 am
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I also have Wipeout HD. It is a very good game. I purchased all the add on modes and tracks. I've enjoyed this one immensley.

cheers everyone

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Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:07 am
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So.............. it's all said and done. I've received my 73" DLP set........ connected the PS3 and using UltraClear DLP Link glasses. IMHO, it looks fantastic. 3DBD look quite impressive on that large screen. Half-resolution checkerboard or whatever "half-resolution" discussions aside, the end result is a very nice looking, HD 3D experience that is on par with going to the theaters. Gaming is also smokin'. Again, aside from technical discussions of 720p@60 being converted to 1080p@60 checkerboard, etc, the end result is playing 3D games on the PS3 on the DLP is awesome.

This isn't saying that movies/gaming on, say the VT25 plasmas isn't better (perhaps crisper, sharper?), but for the price, the DLP sets and the quality 2D/3D experience they provide is unmatched.

As an aside, I do really like the UltraClear glasses. As others have noted, the earpieces are very flexible plastic, which lets them effortlessly conform to your head. My wife's can wear them over her prescription glasses, which have lenses that aren't as "tall" or "round" as some lenses. Like so:

Image

Also, I let the boys (one is a couple of months shy of being 5, the other is around 3 1/2) watch MotorStorm 3D Rift, then some Despicable Me in 3D. They were a bit big, particularly on the 3.5 year old, however, we secured them with adjustable lanyard-style glasses holders (we bought for our sunglasses when we went white-water rafting this summer). Like these:

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So that's a very cheap, comfortable way to adjust them for kids. It also gives some insurance against accidental drops, and little greasy fingers smudging the front lenses trying to push the glasses up on their noses. We're going to leave them on the glasses, even while in their bag... so they're always "ready to go".

I will be ordering 2 (maybe 3 since now I'm in "spending" mode) more pairs to have.... that way the family can have our own, with a spare set if there is a guest, etc.....

So far, quite happy with the rig........ could see how the 82" would be nice to have. :D

Thanks to everyone in the forum that gave input/feedback, and likes to talk about this stuff..... the MTBS forums have been a wonderful place to learn and I will, of course, continue visiting to talk, discuss, and argue about anything 3D. ;)

GC

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Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:43 pm
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Petrif-Eyed
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Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:34 pm
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Cool! Happy gaming and viewing!

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Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:15 am
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