Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

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Luckarusky
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Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by Luckarusky »

The title says it all really. The good news is my symptoms are consistent. "Ghost outlines" mostly happen at a specific blue color range. Solid light-blue creates a sky-like outline that stays firmly in-place matching the stereoscopic separation. (it doesn't dart around) Solid dark-blues have a similar affect that's even more pronounced. I'm not seeing this happen with any other color spectrum or surface.

Here's my used equipment. I'm hoping someone can steer me towards calibration software and a guild how to use it.

Nvidia 3D vision 2 kit.
Acer GN246HL at 144Hz
i7 Processor and GTX 1070 Ti = Solid Framerate, so it's not performance.

3D Fix Manager and RivaTuner


It's most noticeable in Warframe, but there appears to be lighter instances of cross-talk elsewhere too. Here's hoping I can fix this. It's so close to looking perfect!

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by RAGEdemon »

144hz? Have you tried 120Hz?

Sounds like a timing / overdrive related issue.

If the symptoms were a DLP projector, the cause would be obvious.

I bet adjusting the flash timing of the emitter would fix the issue. I think someone released a tool to allow you to do that in the old nvidia forums. I could never get it to work, but it would be what you're looking for IMO...
Last edited by RAGEdemon on Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by schwing »

The tool is here but I never understood how to tweak it. I believe it's supposed to be trial and error.
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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by Luckarusky »

I did actually find that tool. Reducing to a 120Hz refresh rate is fine by my standard if it's an option. I suspect the monitor isn't really built to handle that timing without issues.

NvTimingsEd.exe
=
I have the suggested tool downloaded, but am leary of using it without actually knowing what I'm doing. I'm guessing ACR stands for ACER, and you can make new profiles that include the refresh rate of the monitor. But it would be good to get a confirmation on this before playing with settings I don't understand. heh!

Edit: Looks like I can indeed tweak the timings! :shutter :D Even so, I don't see any auto detect. So I'll want to figure out what timing is best for my brand of monitor, along with it's details. (I could just copy these values and up the refresh rate, but suspect it's hardly that simple.)

https://www.newegg.com/black-acer-gn246 ... 6824009642
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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by 3DNovice »

Check the Nvidia control panel, in the adjust desktop color settings tab, make sure that it is set to other applications control color settings.

In the monitor OSD, make sure that the color temp isn't set to something weird like splendid or warm. It should be set to standard or isf.

Try unplugging the monitor power to reset it and make sure that the video cable connections are secure.

You might also check to see if there is an improved color profile available for download at the manufacturer's website or in Windows Update.

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by Luckarusky »

3DNovice wrote:Check the Nvidia control panel, in the adjust desktop color settings tab, make sure that it is set to other applications control color settings.

In the monitor OSD, make sure that the color temp isn't set to something weird like splendid or warm. It should be set to standard or isf.

Try unplugging the monitor power to reset it and make sure that the video cable connections are secure.

You might also check to see if there is an improved color profile available for download at the manufacturer's website or in Windows Update.
I'll keep that in mind, but probably want to fix the timing first. I've tried setting my monitor to cool without any affect. It helps I now have an app that can set shutter variables, but am keen to make sure I set them correctly. I've found another set of tech-specs for my monitor. Now I need to figure out the formulas to match the glasses timing with the display.

https://www.cnet.com/products/acer-gn24 ... -1080p-24/

So it looks like what I need now is the equations for figuring out the correct settings. Can't say algebra was my strength in college! heh... And I did check the monitor's OSD. It was set to standard.
Last edited by Luckarusky on Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by Luckarusky »

Well, some good news and some bad news. The good news is the prescribed tool does indeed work. I was able to find the dlls, tweak them, and get clear results. The bad news is I made the crosstalk worse with those tweaks! :woot But at least now I know I can work the numbers. Returning to a 120 refresh rate helped ease eye-strain, but didn't restore the previous state with less crosstalk. So it's fairly definitive that there's something in the timing that makes or breaks the difference. The question is what?

(I am currently using a variant of the left-side example image. I just wish I could figure out an exact number instead of shooting in the dark. Surely there's a hint in my monitor's technical data.)

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

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I "might" have found a solution. Turns out the Nvidia control panel gives some numbers with it's custom resolutions. When I created one and applied, it says the resolution already exists. This is encouraging, because those numbers tell me what it's outputting at 120 refresh rate. This might be enough info to adjust the glasses accordingly. I'll post an image of it here.
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Luckarusky
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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by Luckarusky »

Some additional information as to how I got the monitor's ID. I'm back to more or less where I was before now. So I know I've found the correct recognition. Now to figure out how to adjust the timing.
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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by Luckarusky »

An update! I set the frame time value to something ridiculously different. and sure enough, got a very bazzar result. This is a good thing, because it means my settings are having an affect. I should note that you manually need to "encode" the values for them to be actually applied, and the monitor ID needs to be correct. God I wish this thing was better documented! heh! But at the very least I know I'm not doing nothing at this stage.

Edit
(I should also note you DON'T need to restart to see the affects of timing tweaks. Not doing so helps speed the testing process quite a bit! The procedure is to set a Z(Frame Time) buffer, Encode, Apply and then apply to the DLLs. Then launch the app and see the results. Rinse and repeat.)

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Luckarusky
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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by Luckarusky »

In the end, I was able to improve the cross-talk using the methods described in this thread. I wasn't able to eliminate it though, and that came down to my monitor's color timing. Acer as given me a special repair ticket with ample information supplied to a "miscellaneous" job. Hence I'll be interested to see what they can do alleviating the problem. Still, hopefully what I've dug up with this tool helps others experiencing less extreme versions of my problem.

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by russellk »

Just wanted to say thanks for keeping this thread up to date. A lot of people take what they need and don't report back so this is bound to help others at some point.
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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by Luckarusky »

russellk wrote:Just wanted to say thanks for keeping this thread up to date. A lot of people take what they need and don't report back so this is bound to help others at some point.
A pleasure! I'll include the outcome of having sent the monitor in here. I'm REALLY hoping Acer does one of three things. Tweaks the timing and colors to be spot on, gives me custom access to factory settings, or replaces what I bought with something top-shelf. You'll hear when/if one of those three happen.

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by Luckarusky »

Quick little update. I was able to get in contact with the technician who initially set up my case. The monitor is now on the relevent department's workbench. So I've got a uniquely insider feedback on what happens from here forward. I've used that to clarify my goals and provide any info they need. Here's hoping I get some answers to why the cross-talk occurs.

p.s. I presented the idea that the color timing is off, hence as why specific spectrum shades ghost predictability more over others. If nothing else, I'm hoping for restoration of access to factor-setting controls. If I am to hazard a guess though, they're going to either tweak the color-timing themselves or get me a new monitor with higher build quality.

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by Luckarusky »

The techs where not able to turn up anything. That said, I got all my gear back, and some new glasses as well. And yep! The convergence is WAY less with this pair than it was before. There's still a little bit, but now I have tools to weed out the remainder that I couldn't before.

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by Luckarusky »

Another update, and probably the last one unless someone has further feedback. First of all, both glasses are now working. I should note though, I reverted to the last Nvidia drivers that officially supported the system. I also installed the drivers as a separate, fresh copy. so there might have been some residual data. Finally, I installed "NVIDIA_3D_Vision_v266.21_driver" which is related to the sensor.

It appears to have done the trick. I'm still getting ghosting, but nowhere near as bad as before. I'm trying some last tweaks, but think I'm more or less as close as I'll get for now. Here's a screenshot of the "scale" option on the tool if it helps. Basicly it scales everything to the max shutter time's scale.
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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by Luckarusky »

At the end of all of this, I reverted the timing back to normal using a similar monitor in the same brand as reference. That said though, I've reached the point crosstalk is almost unnoticeable. And the tool wasn't useless, because it allowed me to solve another annoyance. (The switched-around eyes in the test.) Here are the things I did to acomplish all that.

1: I did a "clean" install of "425.31-desktop-win10-64bit-international-whql" without the Nvidia Experience software. That way it doesn't update.
2: Don't forget to set your "power preference" back to max performance. That setting will be erased here.
3: Installed "NVIDIA_3D_Vision_v266.21_driver" to make sure the IR sensor was being noticed by the system.
4: I limited the 3D affect to 30%. While I'd like to go higher, that appears to be the magic sweet spot for max-depth without cross-talk.
5: I'm not sure if it helped or not, but I was able to get the correct eyes firing by changing the glasses command order. (It could have been the drivers though.)

One way or another, I've figured out how to identify and use a monitor for the Timing Tool. That, and solved the crosstalk problem. At this point, I'm calling the problem solved. Open to conjecture how to get more depth without cross-talk, but otherwise it's set!

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by schwing »

    If you hate the eyes being reversed and don't want to set any settings (possibly per game), you can use 3D Vision Eye Swapper. It ensures the registry has the eyes swapped from what you're seeing now to the "reverse-reverse". I know you solved it, but this will help if it ever comes back.
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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by Luckarusky »

Well, I have some progress. STILL working on elimenating all of the crosstalk, but I now have some tips for people in reducing it.

1: Install the 425.31 drivers. I'm trying out installing it with the experiance pack, and setting it to not auto-update. Hopefully that will keep it from removing the Nvidia drivers. I also had to do a "clean install" with custom settings to get it back to it's last stable state. P.S. You WILL need to set your GPU to "prefer performance" again.

2: Play around with your monitor's contrast. Buzzarely enough, I increased my contrast to about 65 for best affect reducing the cross-talk. It helps that it makes the image a little brighter behind the glasses too.

3: Try using a different set of glasses. It's a TOTAL luxury to have more than one pair, but not all are made equal. One might fit better with your monitor's timing and behavior.

4: There's a limit to how much depth you can have before crosstalk is inevitable. Distant objects are the key to finding that limit. Increase the 3D affect until a fairly distant object no longer looks like a billboard. Then use a close object to reduce if nessisary until the affect is tollerable. (If it hurts in the first place.) Between the two, you should find the depth limit a game handles well.

5: Use 3D screenshots if you play around with finer settings. pop in and out of 3D view if you're doing anything with the directories. the "NvTimingsEd" is an example that says it needs a computer restart, but in reality it just needs the drivers to be turned off and on. A 3D screenshot that shows ghosting is the fastest testing method I could find.


I'm debating playing with my color settings in the Nvidia control panel to get rid of what remains. but it looks to be more a problem with contrast between light and dark sections of differing color over anything else now. Reducing contrast doesn't have any affect on that, and even makes it a little worse. (Since it makes dark objects REALLY dark against brighter ones.)

So the struggle continues, but that's what I have so far. And and all tips from here are welcome. By now it's playable, but I'm looking to eliminate the crosstalk altogether eventually.

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by Luckarusky »

Interesting! For what clues it offers, enabling triple buffering in the Nvidia "Mannage 3D settings" reduced the crosstalk a little more. It's still there, but getting fainter.

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

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I was also able to decrease crosstalk by giving the nvidia sensor it's own usb port rather than a shared hub. Makes sense given timing is so critical with this thing. The cord is still fairly long though, but I'd imagine that's needed for the sensor to reach and work best with the monitor. I'll see about working it's timing to account for the delay getting the data to the sensor.

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

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Turns out I also found this.

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/fo ... onitor-us/

It gives a tip on getting a monitor EXACT clock rate. Turns out my profile was just a tinny hair off from the actual refresh rate. I'll report back if there's further improvement. But basicly I used the custom resolution screen to get the refresh rate, horzontal KHz and pixel clock, then set them accordingly. Following up by setting frame time to refresh rate, encoding the result, and applying. Then I applied those values to the DLLs.

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by Luckarusky »

Ho man, I am SO close to having this thing on the ropes! First and formost, the refresh trick approach did not work. I only got a monitor error and non-active glasses doing that. So I used a profile of the same class, copied it's code, added that to the one I'm using and decoded it to get back to where I was. Basicly used a good profile to restore.

Now here's the trick. I tweaked the "Z(Frame time)" very very incrimentally. In the end, my magic number was 8082.67 for the ACR_02F9. That was the lowest I could get it without causing any anamolies like shifting focus or phasing between working and not. The result is almost no ghosting, with only the slightest visible outline.

"W" controls the Width, so that doesn't remove the crosstalk. I guess "X" is the last variable to play with. Here's hoping! It's currently set to 0.50.

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

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It was extemely subtle, but adjusting X did have an affect. So the final values are Z timing = 8084.00 (for stability) and X = 690.00. I'm calling it a night for now, but the last thing to tweak is the "Y active time" value. See if I can blot out the remaining cross-talk.

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

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Another step closer, replacing the cable with a USB 3.0 and more robust connection has reduced the shadow image even further. Next I'll see about shortening the distance, and finalize with tweaks to some of the other factors in the timing. At this point, the crosstalk is minor enough that I could "theoretically" ignore it, but I'm going for broke and elimenating it alltogether.

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

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Well shortening the distance wasn't the golden ticket. It did help in other ways, but didn't reduce the ghosting. Man, it's so faint! What's that last piece of this puzzle I'm missing?

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

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Well, I'm out of ideas for now. Make no mistake, it's well and truly playable. I might stick with that for the time being. (Compared to before, when it was simply intolerable.) But I'm open to input and ideas how to get rid of the last of the cross-talk. For now though, I need to draw the line somewhere. All input is welcome how to really nail a solid image, but I won't be perusing further until then.

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

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I decided to persist a little further and try a fix that... well, frankly baffles me. There are two display modes below the 120MHz rate, and I set the Nvidia settings in 3D fix mannager to try 100MHz (On the idea that's more time for the glasses.) It "appeared" to have some kind of affect, so I started lowering the values. In the end, this screenshot is what I did. Basicly, I completely bottomed out the timing and mirror the middle two values.

Frankly, there's no way this should work. My best guess is the secondary values bleed into the main ones a tinny bit. I dunno, perhaps the difference is just sub-concious. But there appears to be a hair less crosstalk. Some images even appear genuinely solid. Well... It's SOMETHING. sigh... But I've made a lot of progress from where I once was.
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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

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There we go, it finally complained. I was wondering when it was going to give me a sanity check! heh! These settings ultimately look more real for the 100 refresh rate. I'll report here if it's any better in terms of crosstalk.
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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

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Stick to 120MHz. Setting the lower MHz refresh rates to 0 (top and bottom shutter value) appears to have some small affect on it's fastest cousin, and playing at 120MHz means less eyestrain. By now the crosstalk is remarkably reduced, well into play-ability. I'm still open to feedback, but think that's as close as I'm going to get on my own. Here's hoping there's a future development to help me eliminate it entirely.

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by Luckarusky »

Man this thing is finicky! Turns out the USB cord used does really matter. Swapping to different USB cords gives me different timing, and hence different amounts of crosstalk. Once again, I've mannaged to decrease it quite a bit, but in most cases not dispose of it entirely.

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

Post by Luckarusky »

Spyro trilogy is still the biggest offender where cross-talk is concerned. Others are doing better though, notably Warframe. I'm hoping that an extra-robust usb cable will help get that last tidbit into truly cross-talk free territory. But I digress, it's miles better than when I started this project.

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Re: Need help reducing predicatable-color crosstalk.

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In the end I wasn't able to remove all of the cross-talk. The length/distance of my cable between the base unit and computer is too great. But I WAS able to reduce it quite a bit. Some games have no cross-talk at all. Others have a fair bit, but (by now) not crippling.


So in conclusion, here's what I can give to other people trying to solve this same problem.
#A: Make sure your display and nvidia 3D drivers are genuinely updated to the (Same) latest that support Nvidia 3D. v418 from 2019 is the last official numerical version to support it. I'm not sure what will follow from there, but the community is sure to fill the driver gap.

#B: Use "NvTimingsEd" to tweak your settings. You want to reduce the frame time as much as possible without "crashing" the glasses. It's poorly documented, but there's plenty of tips in my previous posts regarding it's usage. The tool won't eliminate overtly severe cross-talk, but will reduce it and clean up light ghosting. Z(Frame time) is the key here. Be aware some tweaks need to be very fine indeed.

#C: Be aware also of the USB cable you're using. You want the least possible length and a decently thick insulation. Past a basic thickness yields diminishing returns, at which point length is key. Don't try to daisy chain USB's. You'll only make the problem worse.

#D: You'll get A LOT more use out of the glasses using "3D Fix Mannager" and other community-made tools. Nvidia and game devs are abandoning native support. That doesn't mean the tech is dead though. The enthusiast community is making damn well sure profiles are being created and updated for quite a few games. Just remember the hotkey for disabling 3D if there isn't yet a fix.



And that's pretty much it. My own situation is complicated by a considerable distance between the monitor and base computer. Even so, that didn't stop me from getting the tech up to genuinely usable standards.
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