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 So I got to play in 3d with Windows 10 1903 and 436.15 ... 
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Two Eyed Hopeful
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... using SBS mode on Shadow of the Tomb Raider and the HMZ-T2 SBS mode, and no 3d vision option at all in Nvidia drivers. Yeah, I know it wasn't what you were expecting.

But it really got me thinking if we can make it work somehow with current fixes in our 3d vision hardware? 3D Vision Media Player takes SBS video and makes it work just fine in on our monitors, also 3dmigoto has already SBS support. Is there any way to make 3dmigoto fixes to display on SBS, and force the monitor to merge them somehow?

I know we're losing resolution using SBS, but at this point it would be a reasonable exchange just to keep our rigs up to date in the long term and not the current nvidia/windows driver madness.

I'm an idiot so it's probably impossible, still I just wanted to get some discussion going in the new forums so why not? :woot

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Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:18 am
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Cross Eyed!

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Interesting suggestion! As a potentially higher quality alternative, TaB formant might be a better baseline for this type of operation than SBS, since it preserves information in the more important stereo baseline axis - and would better support the great passive 4K OLED 3D TV displays that a number of forum members have...


Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:44 am
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Two Eyed Hopeful

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No, sorry, this can't work for the vast majority of our fixes.

The reason is actually in the current title of this forum- 3D Vision Driver. We use the 3D Vision Driver to create the stereo image in the first place, using a piece they call 3D Vision Automatic.

Without that piece, we don't get stereo at all, and thus TAB and SBS are the last piece in the video chain that would draw to the monitor. If we have a stereo image, we can have our way with it in any form we like- see HelixVision. I take the stereo image and route it off to a VR player app that is not any normal TAB/SBS. But it uses the 3D Vision Automatic in anaglyph mode to create the original image.


The resaon that Tomb Raider works is because they have their own stereo creation software, and do not use the 3D Vision driver at all. Any game that supports native 3D will probably work this way, including Deus Ex.

3D Vision Driver is the piece of software that DarkStarSword and I would dearly love to replace with something of our own, but it's a big project and we can't currently justify the expense. Maybe someday though.


The 3D Vision driver is what got removed after 425.31, and Losti's hack is what puts it back.

I'll be looking into the 1903+430 problem in a couple of weeks or so and we can get a better idea of how dead we are.


Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:37 pm
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Two Eyed Hopeful
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OK sad to hear and thanks for the explanation, a pity though, really these are trying times for 3d gaming, not only for the lack of 3d vision support, but we're heading to a new gen with raytracing/directx 12/EAC'ed games, I think that the only 3d future will be on VR like it or not, that or you/DarkStarSword/Helifax/DHR/etc. do some incredible magic to keep it alive.

So just to keep throwing some random stuff I have absolutely no idea about, have you guys checked openxr ? I quote from their website ( https://www.khronos.org/openxr/ ):

"OpenXR is a royalty-free, open standard that provides high-performance access to Augmented Reality (AR) and Virtual Reality (VR)—collectively known as XR—platforms and devices. "

It's basically the incoming VR and AR open standard and all HMD manufacturers say that they'll support it, it's platform and hardware agnostic, so maybe it can somehow be adapted to 3d gaming?

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Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:32 am
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Two Eyed Hopeful
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bo3bber wrote:

I'll be looking into the 1903+430 problem in a couple of weeks or so and we can get a better idea of how dead we are.


This is amazing news and hope that there can be found some kind of solution.


Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:56 am
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Two Eyed Hopeful
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@bo3b: when you do start working on this, look into DXGI. I suspect it is the problem. I would've PM'd you, but that feature seems to be disabled on this forum.

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Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:00 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful
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Subject: So I got to play in 3d with Windows 10 1903 and 436.15 ...

schwing wrote:
@bo3b: I would've PM'd you, but that feature seems to be disabled on this forum.












There is this button bellow?


Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:32 pm
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Two Eyed Hopeful
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Thanks, costiq. Didn't notice it before :)

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Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:34 pm
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Two Eyed Hopeful

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@Schwing: Will do. Could easily be a change in DXGI or WDDM that causes the problem.

@skyrimer: The OpenXR is basically a replacement for the company specific drivers that have been used, like Oculus SDK, or SteamVR. It's an industry standard so that devs don't have to write code for multiple different SDKs like they do now. The big win here is that Oculus is on board- they've always been throwing sand in the gears because they want to own the entire VR marketplace, so they deliberately make other systems run worse. We'll see if they have reformed or not.

Does not help relative to a 3D Vision replacement. It's just for VR.


Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:29 pm
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Two Eyed Hopeful
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Ok cool, thanks for explaining, that's it, no more crazy ideas left... for now :P

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Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:50 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful
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Going back to the madness of the subject ...
Another curious fact is that even when the 3d is deactivated in the Nvidia panel, When starting any 3d movie the pyramid is active, without changing the state of the driver ...
Possible way to reconsider?


Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:16 pm
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Cross Eyed!

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:16 pm
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bo3bber wrote:
No, sorry, this can't work for the vast majority of our fixes.

The reason is actually in the current title of this forum- 3D Vision Driver. We use the 3D Vision Driver to create the stereo image in the first place, using a piece they call 3D Vision Automatic.

Without that piece, we don't get stereo at all, and thus TAB and SBS are the last piece in the video chain that would draw to the monitor. If we have a stereo image, we can have our way with it in any form we like- see HelixVision. I take the stereo image and route it off to a VR player app that is not any normal TAB/SBS. But it uses the 3D Vision Automatic in anaglyph mode to create the original image...

3D Vision Driver is the piece of software that DarkStarSword and I would dearly love to replace with something of our own, but it's a big project and we can't currently justify the expense. Maybe someday though.

The 3D Vision driver is what got removed after 425.31, and Losti's hack is what puts it back...
If we are ever going to replace 3D Vision Automatic (post Jan 2020), why not replace it with something that is currently actively supported - NVidia's Multi-view Rendering (see https://devblogs.nvidia.com/turing-multi-view-rendering-vrworks/)? Stereo viewing is a subset of this mutli-view approach. In the past, I PM'ed DSS with a reference to this NVidia capability, but he never responded to my question about how feasible it was to use (how compatible the APIs are).


Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:02 pm
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Two Eyed Hopeful

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whyme466 wrote:
If we are ever going to replace 3D Vision Automatic (post Jan 2020), why not replace it with something that is currently actively supported - NVidia's Multi-view Rendering (see https://devblogs.nvidia.com/turing-multi-view-rendering-vrworks/)? Stereo viewing is a subset of this mutli-view approach. In the past, I PM'ed DSS with a reference to this NVidia capability, but he never responded to my question about how feasible it was to use (how compatible the APIs are).

That's also too late in the pipeline to matter to for creating stereo images. It's an optimization for stereo output, mostly designed for VR in mind, but could work for SBS output. Does not do anything with regard to actually generating the stereo images in the first place. It's closer to the old 3D Direct Mode, and we need 3D Automatic.

The part we need to rewrite would be 3D Automatic, and it's a pretty big job.

And we would likely not do anything that is NVidia specific because they cannot be trusted to not simply cancel any given software when they get bored. We would be looking for stability and long-term use, and focus on making it work on Intel/AMD/NVidia without preference.


Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:00 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful
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bo3bber wrote:
and focus on making it work on Intel/AMD/NVidia without preference.


The Nvidia pyramid running on an Amd graphics card ...
Sounds like science fiction, but also interesting ...

I wonder if there will be a possibility of a "bridge" software that simply makes the 425 drivers self-sufficient. (independent of any major driver version tag) a kind of driver conversion into manual software.


Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:13 am
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Cross Eyed!

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Isaacvigo - sorry, no bridge exists, since 425.31 includes NVidia's "black box" 3D Vision software. NVidia has declined to make this software open source, even though they have stopped supporting this great capability. Any 3D Vision replacement will require a LOT of work ($$) and time - and 3D Vision kits would need some type of new software driver.


Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:04 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful
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even with the virtual machine philosophy?

I don't have enough knowledge to create that code, but the idea is to virtualize an operating system (simplified and silent) that does support (or even contains) 3D vision with an icon-shaped switch ...
one more idea to consider "3d operating System (emulator)" :woot


Impersonate or cheat the following OS seems the simplest options.
The third option (which would be to create new drivers from scratch) seems more expensive.
The fourth option would be to dualize the drivers, (a switch that makes the existing drivers read in another location of our hard drive. Possibly located in the system registry and that gives us the option to install in one or another location) possible inclusion in a future "3d manager(plus)"?


Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:53 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

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It would be nice to see this sorted, since Microsoft has announced a new feature that will be coming to the Windows 10 19H2 update. This new feature will offer better CPU core optimization, will be integrated directly to the operating system, and promises to speed up single-threaded applications by up to 15%. Two core performance will also see improvements.

This will mainly affect Intel processors, AMD Zen processors received a performance increase in 1903.


Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:30 am
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