GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by GeraldT »

it's too much - people need to get there little by little. there is no doubt those systems are the future, but if you want people to get out of the chair (PrioVR) and leave mouse/gamepad behind (STEM), then you need a very neat package. That package is not there, the content is missing. Right now there needs to be a VR revolution, the input revolution will have to follow. Looking forward to it though ;)
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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by V8Griff »

MSat wrote:PrioVR is cool, but how could you use it for games besides with the Omni or with a game based around a dedicated play space?
I like the PrioVR for it's wide range of potential uses, with motion capture being the obvious one. However if you watch the video on the PrioVR page and the Kickstarter page updates you'll see that the PrioVR combined with the hand controllers allows you to have full body control, duck, squat, lie-down etc and the ability to 'walk' using the controller.

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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by Libertine »

Btw, check out this amazing Ted Talks" on depression and imagine how the Oculus (w/ something like PrioVR) could make exercise fun and even transform society for the better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drv3BP0Fdi8
Last edited by Libertine on Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by MSat »

V8Griff wrote:
MSat wrote:PrioVR is cool, but how could you use it for games besides with the Omni or with a game based around a dedicated play space?
I like the PrioVR for it's wide range of potential uses, with motion capture being the obvious one. However if you watch the video on the PrioVR page and the Kickstarter page updates you'll see that the PrioVR combined with the hand controllers allows you to have full body control, duck, squat, lie-down etc and the ability to 'walk' using the controller.
I understand its potential for motion capture, but I was specifically speaking about for game usage. Obviously it has great potential for game use as well, but is more limited due to practicality. It's not like one would really be able to suit up and roam around their house while playing a VR game. I would, however, like to see them come out with a cheaper upper body unit for arm tracking and head/torso decoupling.

mickman wrote:There's been a lot of debate lately regarding Oculus announcing the development of a motion control system that compliments the Rift,( similar to the Stem system... ). but I believe Oculus will bring both PrioVR & Sixense onboard... Just as we are witnessing a very close relationship they've already forged with Valve... Who's to say Oculus are not already a part of Valve.
I believe it was Joe Ludwig who during DevDays was talking about implementing a sort of VR hardware middlewear into Steam, which besides supporting possible future HMDs, would also likely support stuff like motion tracking systems and haptic feedback. It might not be as ideal as industry standards, but it's a hell of a lot better than nothing for PC gamers.

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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by GeraldT »

MSat wrote:PrioVR is cool, but how could you use it for games besides with the Omni or with a game based around a dedicated play space?
it depends on the genre - but I imagine it could be cool for games of a kind we have not yet seen ... soccer deathmatch where you have to kick energy balls at your opponent
flying disc multiplayer where your whole body is in the game but you are standing on a moving disc (that gives movement and you control it with a controller), you can use your full body to evade shots
... cool game idea nobody has yet thought about

the problem will be the games we already know of - you can not have an avatar that looks like he is walking correctly and at the same time simulate it by walking on the spot withoug breaking the 1:1 translation of movement. there are a ton of issues we will have to tackle with VR in the next years and decades.

I personally do not believe that the future lies with correct ingame character representation but the ability of the game designer to make you believe you are the games character even without 1:1 movement translation. partial movement translation (just arms/upper body) would be a good start ... being able to see your arms and fingers in a game is already a very cool experience.
One device I still have not given up hope on is the Leap Motion - if they manage to figure out a stable skeletal tracking for hands, then it is priced just right to become the first motion tracking device that has a chance to build a userbase.
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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by V8Griff »

MSat wrote: I understand its potential for motion capture, but I was specifically speaking about for game usage. Obviously it has great potential for game use as well, but is more limited due to practicality. It's not like one would really be able to suit up and roam around their house while playing a VR game. I would, however, like to see them come out with a cheaper upper body unit for arm tracking and head/torso decoupling.
I assume you've looked at the videos supporting the PrioVR Kickstarter as I suggested? Your comments suggest you haven't. They give you a good indication of how you can mix motion and controller operation without wandering around too far. Also they do have an offering called the Lite which does just track upper torso, head and arms.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ye ... up-game-on

GeraldT is right, all of these cool peripherals open the door to new ways of interacting in games and other simulations that were not possible before. We need to start thinking out of the box at what is now possible in the future not what we do now or have done in the past.

That's why many of these products are still really developer centric rather than mass market.

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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by mickman »

The only drawback with PrioVR is setup time.
All those wires, straps & main module strapped to the torso.
Yei has stated that the final release will be much simpler setup.
I'm liking the fact it comes with in house motion capture software & will operate with Unity
I feel PrioVR should team up with 13th Lab ( check their "Rescape " kickstarter on now ) utilising point cloud. SLAM. As you walk around a room you could be mapping the entire environmenthttp://kck.st/1p4oK3Y
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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by V8Griff »

mickman wrote: I feel PrioVR should team up with 13th Lab ( check their "Rescape " kickstarter on now ) utilising point cloud. SLAM. As you walk around a room you could be mapping the entire environmenthttp://kck.st/1p4oK3Y
Sorry I don't see the connection between PrioVR and the 13th lab tech. PrioVR is motion capture and putting motion sensors in the corner of a room to fix their points is not what the technology is for I'm sure there are simpler and cheaper ways of doing that.

Looking at the Rescape KS videos it seems that what the Rescape technology is claiming to do is map it's environment in real time, which if real does not need the PrioVR technology. That said I would want to see Rescape being reviewed by a third party before I believe what the videos show is actually happening in real time and is not pre rendered. Unless of course I'm completely missing the point of what is being done here.

Look at Google Tango, that is real time mapping and is much more believable than what look like very carefully choreographed, pre rendered sequences to me. https://www.google.com/atap/projecttango/

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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by mickman »

Mm perhaps not slam technology.. It could be overkill.. All I want to achieve is the ability to place accurate real world positions of walls doors etc.. into a virtual space. There's an iPhone app called "MagicPlan" that allows a user to map interior environments & save out to dxf. This could be perfect. I notice in PrioVRs update #6. They mention distance of operation is quite large. 100 ft dia.
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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by GeraldT »

this is all much too unsafe unless you can clear one or more rooms just for this purpose. if you prescan them, then every change might represent a tripping hazard. if you do real-time scanning there are no solutions accurate enough.

this is still a bit away - Oculus will have made that seated VR decision for good reasons
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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by cgp44 »

Sony are dead in the water. They have no technological advantage and they are closed shop development
competing directly with open source /partial open hardware.

They died when they forgo'ed any further development of the CELL architecture They could have blown us all away with
a CELL chip that could compete with gpu and cpu at the same time. They would have had to require
all CELL developers to disclose their code so as to get the technology moving (in a way similar to
open hardware fpga movement). The notion of CELL programming being too hard is nonsense when
you actually dont have to, just use the library or if you are keen learn up on the techniques to participate
in the CELL coding movement. Alas it is dead killed by idiot Sony management.

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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by android78 »

@cgp44 - by that argument the PC should be killing it over consoles at the moment, however the opposite appears true. The constraints of consoles have the advantage of true plug and play. I think the morphious will do a good job of commercializing the idea of every day consumer vr and oculus will provide a better product for enthusiasts who don't mind going to extra effort for a better experience on PC.

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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by Sp3cia1 »

Got to check out both at GDC. There really doesn't need to be a fight over this, as it just will help get more games given a green light to be developed for VR now that SCE has enter the VR market

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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by MSat »

GeraldT wrote:
MSat wrote:PrioVR is cool, but how could you use it for games besides with the Omni or with a game based around a dedicated play space?
it depends on the genre - but I imagine it could be cool for games of a kind we have not yet seen ... soccer deathmatch where you have to kick energy balls at your opponent
flying disc multiplayer where your whole body is in the game but you are standing on a moving disc (that gives movement and you control it with a controller), you can use your full body to evade shots
... cool game idea nobody has yet thought about
I won't disagree with you because I know there will be many possibilities for experiences not even thought up yet. However, your examples still run into the problem of lack of situational awareness in your physical space. This is fine in a controlled environment, such as a VRcade, but for home use this can be potentially dangerous. This is why omnidirectional treadmills and seated play makes the most sense, but it does unfortunately limit the types of games, or at least their level of immersiveness. Hand tracking is a great start to get more of your body into the game, though. I think it would be extremely wise for Oculus to have such a capability as part of their consumer version Rift.

V8Griff wrote:
I assume you've looked at the videos supporting the PrioVR Kickstarter as I suggested? Your comments suggest you haven't. They give you a good indication of how you can mix motion and controller operation without wandering around too far. Also they do have an offering called the Lite which does just track upper torso, head and arms.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ye ... up-game-on
Sorry, but it's been a while since I looked at their system, and most of the news related it it showed the full-body setup, so I wasn't aware of (or maybe just forgot) about the "lite" option. Either way, even the lite system still seems a bit excessive, not just in terms of the number of nodes, but also the price. That might be fine for development use, which isn't what I am, so I guess that should be taken into consideration when I mention my opinions. Because of that, for now I'll wait until the market is a bit more established.

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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by cgp44 »

The PC market is down now due to people buying smartphones and the dualopoly
of AMD and NVidia, and the fact that developers could not keep up with GPU power.
Hence a lack of rendering demand for the higher end GPUs. VR just doubled the
rendering demand without in-scene increase in complexity.
Also the GPU higher end cards have not come down.
Maybe 2K or 4K VR headsets will revive PCs with large GPU cards market.
Forget about VR with smartphones.

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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by GeraldT »

MSat wrote: I won't disagree with you because I know there will be many possibilities for experiences not even thought up yet. However, your examples still run into the problem of lack of situational awareness in your physical space. This is fine in a controlled environment, such as a VRcade, but for home use this can be potentially dangerous. This is why omnidirectional treadmills and seated play makes the most sense, but it does unfortunately limit the types of games, or at least their level of immersiveness. Hand tracking is a great start to get more of your body into the game, though. I think it would be extremely wise for Oculus to have such a capability as part of their consumer version Rift.
I fully agree - that is the biggest problem with most of the non-seated VR experiences. My personal approach will likely be to put a round carpet with a good structure somewhere where I know I will have enough freedom around it to hit anything as long as I stay on it.
I love the idea of treadmills, but there are also a ton of issues with them and they need to mature more too. I'd rather invest into a PrioVR and a round carpet currently, and I see it as the more viable market (especially for fitness applications).
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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by cgp44 »

I can see a game design where you are standing with the one camera for shoulder positioning.
In the game you have a pointer that indicates where the outside movement camera is. If you
want to duck behind in a direction say 180 you hit a rotate world button to align the world so the camera
is in the correct alignment to continue shooting behind cover in that direction. It is nusia producing
so do it infrequently.

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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by MSat »

GeraldT wrote: My personal approach will likely be to put a round carpet with a good structure somewhere where I know I will have enough freedom around it to hit anything as long as I stay on it.
This is certainly an option, but unless developers don't mind further limiting their market, they can't base their gameplay around the expectation that people to have room for such a thing. I do, and presumably you do too, but I know a lot of people who don't. I think that for the foreseeable future, the most compelling (in terms of movement freedom and immersiveness) will be in dedicated VR play spaces like VRcades (which don't currently exist, but hopefully will soon).

I'm also not totally sold on these passive omni treadmills, but if you *really* want to use your legs to move around in the virtual world from the comfort of your own home, they're the only practical solution as of now.

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Re: GDC 2014 - Oculus Vs Sony - ding-ding... fight !

Post by GeraldT »

I agree - that is why I don't buy one yet and wait for a market to emerge. I would love to use all these toys in development, but for now Headset and standard controls for sitting VR is what is best to target imo. :)
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