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 Would Kickstarter Work For MTBS? 
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3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
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Hi Guys,

I've been putting thought into this for some time, but I honestly don't know if it would work and wanted to test the waters before pursuing this further.

Kickstarter (or a service like it) has demonstrated itself very useful and successful for inventions (like Oculus Rift). The big advantage with inventions like Oculus is it's tangible. Something you can feel and touch and keep for yourself if you pledge enough.

MTBS has inventions, but they are more for the community and industry's good like GameGrade3D. There are other things we would like to do with GG3D, as well as offshoots in other 3D markets with features that our members have regularly asked for. While we have been blessed with some leading industry support and recognition, we always have a hand tied behind our back because let's face it, funding resources are scarce, and the politics attached to 3D gaming make matters even worse. Five years later, much of the industry is still 100% disconnected from gamers despite MTBS' bursting traffic and an obvious 3D presence - so we really do need to take things in our own hands if we want to accomplish something major.

If we did do something through Kickstarter or a service like it, we would be looking at much smaller rounds of financing. Usually in the scope of tens of thousands versus hundreds of thousands. I know we can get good prizes to go with pledges (e.g. video games, discount codes, etc.), but I don't know if efforts like this would fly with the MTBS community, or if our energies should be placed elsewhere.

What are your thoughts on this?

Regards,
Neil


Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:39 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

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It is certainly worth trying if the idea is good it will most likely find people that are interested in supporting it.

I'm always ready to help and support good stereo 3D related projects and ideas not only financially... :)

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Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:34 pm
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3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
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Great! That's a good and welcome start. I'm just looking at Oculus' funds raised in such a short time, and it's an indisputable demonstration that if we can directly connect with gamers and match up with what they really want and how they want it, it's in our power to do amazing things in 3D.

I think GameGrade3D is our best bet because it has earned a lot of positive industry recognition (DDD, AMD, Tom's Hardware, etc.) and its future development can accurately be framed as a series of software projects. The same can be said of alternate forms of GameGrade3D with new features and other 3D markets (3D cinema, mobile, AR, hardware, etc.). I know there is positive enthusiasm among gamers for GG3D. It's got over 500 submissions so far. However, I also know that it's incomplete, and it needs much better community features and wisdom of crowds error correction. It can still be easier to use, and we do need a better subjective scoring mechanism for those that want it.

I have the contacts to get awesome prizes attached to pledges, so I know I can build this into something exciting and newsworthy. It would help to get some development ideas that fellow 3D gamers will be passionate about - things that are missing that we desperately need. Anyways, I've done enough talking already!

Regards,
Neil


Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:12 pm
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As the rift demonstrated, partnerships are the key to success. If you could somehow make a huge partnership (a la integrating GG3D into steam (if only the overlay)), that will give you brand trust by association. You just need a product that will HELP make them a profit, rather than potentially take it away (GG3D will inevitably discourage sales) so they'll actually partner with you in the first place.

Plus, as good as GG3D could be for quality assurance among enthusiasts, I don't see it having the rampant appeal among EVERYONE that the rift has (by tapping into our childlike yearning for Virtual Reality).

Plenty great opportunities still exist in the 3D realm, but I don't think GG3D has the potential to be one of them unless it gets some serious functionality additions and integration into most of the mainstream software (drivers, Steam etc.)

If done right, though, it could be the bridge that spans drivers, games, and the industry itself in terms of 3D.


Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:48 pm
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3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
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Hi Zalo,

Some valuable points here.

Quote:
As the rift demonstrated, partnerships are the key to success. If you could somehow make a huge partnership (a la integrating GG3D into steam (if only the overlay)), that will give you brand trust by association. You just need a product that will HELP make them a profit, rather than potentially take it away (GG3D will inevitably discourage sales) so they'll actually partner with you in the first place.

Plus, as good as GG3D could be for quality assurance among enthusiasts, I don't see it having the rampant appeal among EVERYONE that the rift has (by tapping into our childlike yearning for Virtual Reality).


I'm not suggesting that we have the same expectations as Oculus - though as successful as Oculus is, that too doesn't represent everyone! This isn't about improving video game sales for video game sales sake. There are already claims of 3D Readiness that put corporate sales interests ahead of customers. GameGrade3D is primarily for the gamers, and the industry willing to acknowledge the honesty of gamers and statements of 3D Readiness. So while a Steam partnership would be nice, it has no bearing on what makes the service tick or how much more useful it can be given the opportunity.

That said, we already have acknowledgement and trust from some of the big players (though Steam would be an excellent fit):

http://www.amd.com/us/products/technolo ... ics.aspx#5
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/231 ... 242-3.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gef ... 50-11.html
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/pressrele ... rthday.php

There are other big players anticipated who haven't been announced yet.


Quote:
Plenty great opportunities still exist in the 3D realm, but I don't think GG3D has the potential to be one of them unless it gets some serious functionality additions and integration into most of the mainstream software (drivers, Steam etc.)

If done right, though, it could be the bridge that spans drivers, games, and the industry itself in terms of 3D.


You hit the nail on the head. I'm well aware that more functionality is needed. The question is what that functionality is, and would gamers be passionate enough to help support its development (within reason)? If the sky was the limit, what can we do with GG3D to make it more successful and useful for gamers? The partnerships will come, and we already have a head start on that.

I should add again that the prizes received for pledges would be good. They wouldn't be pledges for nothingness or just cups and T-Shirts. There has to be a pledge to prize benefit as well as a positive 3D gaming community benefit.

Regards,
Neil


Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:28 pm
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Here's an idea: Right now (from what I understand) GG3D is mostly a subjective rating experience.
As useful as that may be to End-Users, game development firms are not likely to give it much credibility (and they sure can't use it as a widely recognized benchmark to demonstrate "3D Readiness") before the game is released to the public for rating.

Now, if it was a system that could take a Fraps-esque recording/side-by-side screenshot and a sampling of the input parameters (FOV, convergence distance, eye separation, etc.) and objectively analyze both views for depth inconsistencies, stereo image inconsistencies, horizontal alignment errors, etc. you'd have a credible system for determining 3D readiness that publishers could use to add credibility to their claims of 3D readiness.

  • Depth Map Steps:
    1. Select a point (slice of image) in one of the views
    2. Find the same position in the other view
    3. Search in that area until you find the point again (easier since its mostly just the horizontal axis)
    4. Record the offset of the point.
    5. Repeat for hundreds of points
    6. Construct a depth map using structured light techniques (literally the same algorithm that the kinect uses (comparing actual displaced points with original perfect grid of points to extract depth)
    7. Inspect quality of depth map and compare to input settings
  • Stereo Consistency Check:
    8. Inspect similarity of the views and construct a difference map.
    9. If difference/error is beyond a threshold, start gradually subtracting points (as this takes away from the brain being able to combine the images)
    10. Other checks? (Temporal Consistency, Horizontal/Vertical alignment?)
    11. Give Grade

That's just a preliminary outline of what I imagine the program doing under the hood, since I know programming these things can be daunting. I imagine you'll have a much easier time getting partners if the uncertainty element is taken out, and if you offer something that no one else is currently offering.


Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:17 pm
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3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
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Hi Zalo,

I think there is a disconnect as to what GameGrade3D is and how it works. This is my fault as I just walked into a wall expecting people to already be familiar with it.

Here is the introductory article on what it does and how it works:

http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?option= ... Itemid=124

In short, it's not subjective at all. With the exception of a separate score question, it's designed to be rules based and not infringe on artistic choices in 3D video games (on PC). If you don't have time to review the above article, just go to http://www.gamegrade3d.com and make a fresh submission under the title "Test Game". I can delete it later after you have had a chance to try it out and get a feel for how it works.

I don't wish to discount your idea as it may hold value in its own right. GameGrade3D is a different ball of wax though.

Regards,
Neil


Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:28 pm
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One of the way is to convince Nvidia, DDD, Tridef to outsource the 3D rating job to MTBS3D. With open community testing and feedback, this is a better way to rate and feedback any issue related 3D. Also, it's possible to beta test for any gaming company that would like to support 3D. This is a win win situation for both party, the developer saving on costing on 3D integration and we as a communitiy get the first rate 3D games and drivers.


Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:24 pm
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Oops, my bad, I misunderstood how GG3D worked. Now that I see it, it is a pretty clever and consistent metric.
Thanks for not getting angry at me though, the nerd inside of me got carried away ;)

From here it seems like a matter of partnerships, integration, and proliferation. As fun as kickstarter is, I fail to see where it fits in exactly.

Is what you're suggesting is that it's a fundraiser for MTBS and GG3D in general, with rewards (like codes) for higher backer levels?


Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:39 pm
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Have you considered a some form of donation service instead? It seems like the only people that would donate to Kickstarter are the forum members themselves so why not just target them directly with donation widgets on the site instead of using an indirect vehicle and losing a big cut of the money? Maybe easier said than done - but worth considering.


Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:05 pm
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3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
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As much as I would like to see MTBS better funded, I'm not sure Kickstarter is a good fit. Most of the projects on there are actual products that people can get for their support: a game download, t-shirts, a board game, devices like the Oculus Rift. I'm not sure something like a community forum (that was already alive and existing) would even get accepted, let alone funded. Now if it were for something new that needed funding, maybe. I just don't see people giving up cash for something that's already there and that they can use for free.

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Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:00 pm
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I think a fork of the free and open source cross platform 3d Workstation Blender, reduced to the part for game creation with a special focus on steroscopic 3d would be very nice. A tool to enable everybod to create 3d games freely.

http://www.blender.org/

I think that there are a lot of people out there who are just overhelmed with the Blender interface, you could build a huge community and use donations. Maybe even create a Linux Distro based on Ubuntu for game creation and gaming in the design of the MTBS website. The foundation for Ubuntu as gaming platform is just made these days by the people who are supporting Palmer, Valve :mrgreen:

Seen this? http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... px=MTE1MjI
http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/faster-zombies/


Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:01 pm
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3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
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Hi Guys,

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One of the way is to convince Nvidia, DDD, Tridef to outsource the 3D rating job to MTBS3D. With open community testing and feedback, this is a better way to rate and feedback any issue related 3D. Also, it's possible to beta test for any gaming company that would like to support 3D. This is a win win situation for both party, the developer saving on costing on 3D integration and we as a communitiy get the first rate 3D games and drivers.




I would say that Nvidia is a no go for political reasons. They have a private marketing brand they are trying to protect, so GG3D practically goes against their religion. However, there isn't anything dishonest or harmful about GG3D, so as evidenced above, it's not a threat to Nvidia and is a good independent testing mechanism - even if they can't officially state it.



I think it's fair to say that DDD is already supportive of GG3D in more ways than one. Their ads are on MTBS, they've helped promote it in press releases, and given the opportunity, I think they'd be open to try new things as well.



AMD we know about. I think it's a big deal that they are referencing GG3D the way they have, and it's a vote of confidence in gamers and the GG3D technique. It's also a plus that they are independent and don't really have specific hardware to promote.

While I don't think we can expect these companies to outsource this QA to MTBS' community, there is definitely room to have private 3D Ready claims as well as a separate stamp of approval based on an independent and "disinterested" resource like MTBS.


Quote:
Have you considered a some form of donation service instead? It seems like the only people that would donate to Kickstarter are the forum members themselves so why not just target them directly with donation widgets on the site instead of using an indirect vehicle and losing a big cut of the money? Maybe easier said than done - but worth considering.


To be clear, I'm using Kickstarter as a sample service. We may have to use something completely different because of geographic limitations of Kickstarter. I know Kickstarter has an appeal among members because it's a trusted intermediary or third party funds collector. I should add that even though our interest is niche market, the prizes don't have to be. If the prizes are cool enough and the cause is honorable, people may put money in anyway.


Quote:
As much as I would like to see MTBS better funded, I'm not sure Kickstarter is a good fit. Most of the projects on there are actual products that people can get for their support: a game download, t-shirts, a board game, devices like the Oculus Rift. I'm not sure something like a community forum (that was already alive and existing) would even get accepted, let alone funded. Now if it were for something new that needed funding, maybe. I just don't see people giving up cash for something that's already there and that they can use for free.


This isn't about funding a community forum. Kickstarter doesn't fund vague businesses, only projects with defined goals and end results.

GameGrade3D isn't a forum (though it could be a software mechanism to gather and organize diverse community input). Yes, an early version of GameGrade3D exists much like an Oculus prototype existed before Kickstarter. However, similar to Oculus and most other Kickstarter projects, it's not finished. As a fundable project with defined goals and feature additions, GG3D has as much right to qualify as anything else.

I know this is over the top, but pretend YouTube never existed. If I told you that I had an idea to create a way for people to share their videos for free all over the world and would give them the power to have as much influence as CNN...just imagine. It's free, you can't hold it or keep it, but it's unique and influential. It's a software invention that could have exciting ramifications and empowerment for people who would have been invisible otherwise. While GG3D is specialized and very niche market, this is the way to think of it. It's a software invention that tells 3D gamers which games work best on their systems, how to get the best results, and empowers the community to encourage top quality in S-3D game development through transparent gamer-backed testing.

On the topic of prizes, in the five years we've been at this, with all the U-Decide Initiatives, Birthday Bonanza Contests, etc. etc....surely we've earned a reputation for delivering killer prizes! Honestly, how many people have come and gone from MTBS just for the prizes?!?!? Think big!

Regards,
Neil


Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:35 pm
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Quote:
I know this is over the top, but pretend YouTube never existed. If I told you that I had an idea to create a way for people to share their videos for free all over the world and would give them the power to have as much influence as CNN...just imagine


There are many people who are just waiting for a free YouTube or Facebook alternative without the data mining and "if you don't pay you're the product" agenda behind it.


Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:44 pm
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I don't think I'm communicating myself properly. I used YouTube as an example because it's a software invention that is community based. It was a hypothetical example of if YouTube never existed, would it have qualified as a Kickstarter project? I'm not suggesting we create another YouTube! :woot

Regards,
Neil


Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:04 am
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Quote:
Oops, my bad, I misunderstood how GG3D worked. Now that I see it, it is a pretty clever and consistent metric.
Thanks for not getting angry at me though, the nerd inside of me got carried away ;)

From here it seems like a matter of partnerships, integration, and proliferation. As fun as kickstarter is, I fail to see where it fits in exactly.

Is what you're suggesting is that it's a fundraiser for MTBS and GG3D in general, with rewards (like codes) for higher backer levels?



No worries. I forgot to answer this question!

GameGrade3D is still early stage. Most are happy with the metric (with room for scoring adjustments), but the software needs more features to be easier to use and to allow community driven QA correction. For example, let's say ten people submit different results for the same game and same driver version. Which submission should readers trust? Or worse, what if a fanboy fakes positive and negative results to mislead fellow gamers? There needs to be software in place for gamers to vote and filter results down to something that holds up to public scrutiny. Even the entry system could be easier where gamers can take an existing profile, and confirm and adjust to create new and more accurate profiles without having to re-enter everything. These are all software additions that would make GG3D better and easier to use. There are tonnes of things we can do with it, but they all require software programming expertise that will cost time and money.

So two questions:

I. What are those software additions?
II. Is it realistic to for the community to help fund it in exchange for good prizes (and a good QA system for 3D gamers and industry)?

Regards,
Neil


Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:50 am
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Neil, you do alot of work on 3d and are helping making it better for the whole world. I remember in 2007 when there was no hardware or software that really supported 3d. I think it was from talking about 3d and the hidden discovery that released the potential for newer compatable 3d technology.

Five years in and we have our 50 inch 3dtvs, hmd, 120 hz flat panel monitors ect. And now the games are being subjected to full on environment settings. I think its a good idea to enhance game grade 3d to be more secure and nationalized. If only, I think most of the people who would contribute money is the people who really want a better time with 3d. All the folks satisfied with how the 3d is layed out now will probably pass and just wash their hands of it. 10 or 20 dollars is'nt that much money to depart with to FORCE better 3d, LAWL.

I still want to see how windows 8 is gonna handle some 3d goodness. Hopefully not a let down.

I'd also like to see gamegrade 3d as an application to buy and get content in that format steaming from the net and such. If you get enough dough, I'd love to see what you have in mind. :D

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Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:49 pm
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After thinking about it more, I could see GG3D being on a Kickstarter type of thing. But it would have to be a totally new app, not just a facelift for the current version. What would be cool is if it could be a mobile app (like a web app with a mobile optimized view). That way people could be playing a game and actually submit a GG3D report *while* they are playing a game. And of course, they could still go on the website if they want to add photos or videos or whatever. It should be a free-standing community outside of just a tack-on to MTBS.

Beyond that, I think GG3D needs to load a LOT quicker, maybe just one ajax page that loads in place (no page refresh). The questions should kind of drill down, so you don't have to read every single question every time. There needs to be a bigger community participation. People should be able to vote and comment on different reports. There should be a bigger focus on photos/videos and use of plug-ins that allow you to view them in 3D on the web (YouTube3D, Sview, etc.). It should be gamified: people should get points and badges for participating. Their points should be shown in the forum (under their name). I think all these things would help.

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Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:36 am
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Quote:
After thinking about it more, I could see GG3D being on a Kickstarter type of thing. But it would have to be a totally new app, not just a facelift for the current version. What would be cool is if it could be a mobile app (like a web app with a mobile optimized view). That way people could be playing a game and actually submit a GG3D report *while* they are playing a game. And of course, they could still go on the website if they want to add photos or videos or whatever. It should be a free-standing community outside of just a tack-on to MTBS.

Beyond that, I think GG3D needs to load a LOT quicker, maybe just one ajax page that loads in place (no page refresh). The questions should kind of drill down, so you don't have to read every single question every time. There needs to be a bigger community participation. People should be able to vote and comment on different reports. There should be a bigger focus on photos/videos and use of plug-ins that allow you to view them in 3D on the web (YouTube3D, Sview, etc.). It should be gamified: people should get points and badges for participating. Their points should be shown in the forum (under their name). I think all these things would help.



Mobile App

I like this idea. I think a software app would be too difficult, but as you suggested, a mobile-friendly web version would work very well.


Free Standing Community

What I've always wanted to do is that when there is a game submission, there is a special comments button for people to have conversation around that submission. In addition to a voting mechanism, it would be an easy way for people to immediately discuss and debate submissions. This could be the most important feature of all.

On the MTBS site, we have a special comments engine bridge to our discussion forums so that when people comment on articles from the article page, appropriate article threads are created here automatically. It also gives posters the complex editing functionality they wouldn't have otherwise. Another benefit is it prevents people from having to register multiple times to get into the same service (only one log-in is required). The software doesn't exist yet (maybe it can be adapted?), but I was hoping we could do something similar with GG3D.


GameGrade3D Speed

Can you elaborate more on where the slowdown is happening? During the submission processs? Getting results? Uploading files?

I agree with the drill-down page. Believe it or not, GG3D does have a drill-down process as it is, but it's still very complex. I think the solution is to start with basic questions like "Do the shadows look correct?", "Are you able to max out your graphics settings?", and depending on the answers, the more complex options listings come up. The other side of the coin is if profiles already exist, instead of re-entering, there needs to be a voting mechanism, or you can take an existing profile, and make changes and adjustments to create something fresh - a community driven filtering process.


Gamification

That's another advantage of using our existing forum system. We can definitely do this, and base personal rank and/or points on GG3D submissions and perhaps community recognition of submissions as being accurate. Remember, we could have or develop access to prizes that could be a good motivator to contribute profiles, etc.


3D Image Viewing

I bet we can do much of this now. I'll investigate.


Community Involvement

Well this is the clincher! I'd like to hear from the community on what would motivate their input and contributions more. Even though we have over 500 submissions, I think something is holding the service back. Is it features? Is it ease of use? Is it politics? What would make regular GG3D participation and use a sure thing for you?

I know some members have expressed a wish for more subjective scoring options in addition to the measured approach that GG3D currently uses. We can look at this too.

Quote:
Neil, you do alot of work on 3d and are helping making it better for the whole world. I remember in 2007 when there was no hardware or software that really supported 3d. I think it was from talking about 3d and the hidden discovery that released the potential for newer compatable 3d technology.

Five years in and we have our 50 inch 3dtvs, hmd, 120 hz flat panel monitors ect. And now the games are being subjected to full on environment settings. I think its a good idea to enhance game grade 3d to be more secure and nationalized. If only, I think most of the people who would contribute money is the people who really want a better time with 3d. All the folks satisfied with how the 3d is layed out now will probably pass and just wash their hands of it. 10 or 20 dollars is'nt that much money to depart with to FORCE better 3d, LAWL.


Thank you for your very kind words. MTBS started because I personally love 3D and it was a hobby before an advocacy group. Given the opportunity, I think there is a lot that can still be accomplished.

Regards,
Neil


Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:13 am
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I think Kickstarter can work if you have a practical and clearly defined project.



Neil wrote:
GameGrade3D Speed

Can you elaborate more on where the slowdown is happening? During the submission processs? Getting results? Uploading files?

I agree with the drill-down page. Believe it or not, GG3D does have a drill-down process as it is, but it's still very complex. I think the solution is to start with basic questions like "Do the shadows look correct?", "Are you able to max out your graphics settings?", and depending on the answers, the more complex options listings come up. The other side of the coin is if profiles already exist, instead of re-entering, there needs to be a voting mechanism, or you can take an existing profile, and make changes and adjustments to create something fresh - a community driven filtering process.




I agree that the submission process is long. There is a lot of cases and it's not easy to determine if an anomaly in a game match with one anomaly described into GG33D or another, even for an experimented user.

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Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:31 am
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I agree with the previous poster where (I think) a donate button would be better suited for MTBS3D especially for what Neil described early on. The only thing mentioned which sounds like a Kickstarter project would be the mobile app. For a steady income why not use a Donate button which will also provide options for direct debit / standing orders?

On a side note: please be careful with the digital prizes. Make sure they are globally available and not just for those in the US. :/


Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:17 am
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Hi Andy,

Thanks for your input. In practice, Kickstarter may not be applicable for us at all because:

I. We are proud Canucks! Kickstarter uses Amazon US for payouts, and they won't work with Canadian innovators like us because they don't have the means to. So poor James Cameron couldn't use Kickstarter even if he wanted to. Actually...he lives in the US I'm sure, so he would be Kickstarter eligible. :woot

II. They regularly expand what they won't accept. This is a tough one:

Quote:
Rewards not directly produced by the project or its creator (no offering things from the garage, repackaged existing products, weekends at the resort, etc)


We could probably get around this because the industry does have an active role in its design, but it could still be a setback in giving pledgers some great prizes.

However, let's forget Kickstarter for a moment. There are other options, and maybe we aren't seeing the forest through the trees. We won't need big money to make this work well for everyone. What's more important is developing a firm spec that completes the vision and practicality of GameGrade3D. I know we are very close and have already accomplished a great deal. So please continue to share your wishlist so we can firm up a design spec.

Regards,
Neil


Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:27 pm
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Two Eyed Hopeful
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Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:09 pm
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Well, to tell you the truth, I'm not quite so excited about community based rating systems. FAR too many people rate based on what they have heard, not on their own experiences. I'm beginning to think some publishers might actually be pulling some of this, too, to up-rate their own games and to down-rate competition. You don't really have any way of confirming somebody even owns the game they are rating here so this will be a major issue, IMHO.

For example, a few months ago a book author sued over the Assassin's Creed series, saying it ripped off the ideas presented in his book. At the time, this book had just one rating on Amazon - five stars. The day the news hit, it suddenly got dozens more ratings - all 1 star. If I didn't know about the news event and didn't notice that the vast majority of ratings all popped up over two day's time and long after the book appeared on Amazon, I would probably think the book was terrible.

Personally, I would rather see this done by a select group of experts. Somebody with solid experience that knows how to fill the form out would do the main rating for the game. Actually, probably quite a few somebodies. The question is - how to pay them off? Game publishers might be willing to pay for the service if they get to publish a rating on their game box but, at least right now, most wouldn't be too pleased with that rating. The game players are the ones that benifit the most so we might donate. Or advertisements could be used.

Having an 'expert rating' doesn't preclude user ratings, of course. Gamespot has the "user rating" for players to use to review games themselves right along side their professional review and rating.

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Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:06 pm
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3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
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Hi Zloth,

Thanks for your valued input. The idea of companies or publishers beefing the ratings up to meet a private purpose isn't unheard of anywhere. I could point fingers at 180 degree angles towards game and driver developers that promote themselves as being 3D Ready or having hundreds of game profiles with awesome 3D compatibility when actual gaming experiences say otherwise.

MTBS has defensively survived for over five years because we have learned to handle a lot of crap. Our favorite are commercial entities (I'm talking BIG commercial entities) pretending to be customers in the forums to bash their competition, or to simply promote their wares. In some cases, when we politely catch them in the act, a couple have an overwhelming sense of entitlement to do this kind of thing. They don't understand that when you deliberately try to take advantage of a gamer community for commercial gain under false pretenses that there will be repercussions. They don't understand that unless they are helping to legitimately grow the community and aren't there to just promote themselves, their posts aren't welcome here.

In the end, it's not our problem. In all of these cases, it has cost them exposure and credibility with one of the largest stereoscopic 3D gaming communities in the world. You haven't heard of these cases because, well, they are invisible here. You haven't heard any vocal complaints from these companies because we have all the data and email exchanges proving our position - so they are wise to stay quiet. This hasn't been a financial loss to us because these organizations were never here to contribute in the first place.

You raise a valid position about the accuracy of GameGrade3D. With time, we can highlight contributions made by reputable and experienced individuals. There will also be a voting mechanism to weed out the false results.

Regards,
Neil


Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:32 am
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Two Eyed Hopeful
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Quote:
With time, we can highlight contributions made by reputable and experienced individuals.

That would help quite a bit!

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Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:54 pm
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Petrif-Eyed
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Filtering out a percentage of the worst and the best results will help if there are companies trying to interfere with the scores. In an application like this it will have a very minor impact on the final score since theoretically all users with a certain driver should have very similar results with a certain game.

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Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:04 am
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Petrif-Eyed
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A simple solution could be to require a screenshot as a proof for any anomaly observed. This way people could be sure it's present and see by themselves how severe it is. This could also help developers to quickly identify where the problem lies.

The subjective notation would make even more sense since people could directly see why it has been noted this way. There could even be some sort of notation entered by users who didn't test the game by themselves, just by looking at the image in 3D. Then an average could be made for these notes, and be shown along the one from the tester.

ie.

Shadows
objective : -5%
tester : -10%
users : -7%

Skybox
objective : -5%
tester : -3%
users : -4%

HUDs
objective : -10%
tester : -20%
users : -15%

Overall
objective : 80%
tester : 70%
users : 65%


Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:54 pm
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