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GameGrade3D Beta Launched!
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Author:  Neil [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  GameGrade3D Beta Launched!

Hello everyone!

I'm hopeful you like the new features and functionality of GameGrade3D.

The editing functionality should be ready within the next few days, so if you have old profile submissions that you want to update, you will be able to do that without starting from scratch. It's not ready yet, though.

In the meantime, please share your findings, bugs, etc. If you have some ideas, share those too!


Author:  BlackShark [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GameGrade3D Beta Launched!

I think there is something wrong with my old Audiosurf iZ3D entry : ... _id&val=18

The following item has been added, but shouldn't be there
Check here if the game has no discernible out of screen effects because the convergence settings are locked out, or the game has native stereoscopic 3D support which doesn't feature out of screen effects.

"Avatar (native support)" should be renamed : "James Cameron's AVATAR : the game", or if you want to keep it at the letter A : "Avatar : the game (James Cameron's)"

Add native outputs :
-Nvidia 3D Vision (Quad buffer)
-iZ3D API (Quad buffer)
-Provide a separate Side by side mode between the squashed side by side for 3DTV and full ratio side by side for special displays (TrackMania has this for dual-projectors)
-Other (yep, I think it would be useful to have an "other" entry here, in case we need it)

Add the game version number for native, a game update may add new outputs and fix bugs (or break stuff)

We need an entry to tell when there are issues with specific outputs with native games. Examples some outputs having bugs that don't appear on other outputs (Trackmania clearly has this issue), some games provide side by side or interlaced output with a bad / non-optimized sampling method (Trackmania, Deus-EX Human revolution), creating lower resolution than actually achievable through proper optimised sampling.


Lots of presentation and spacing issues, but i think it's because it's still beta, you are probably already working on it.

Author:  Neil [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GameGrade3D Beta Launched!

Hi Blackshark,

I planned to move the Avatar game into the new category once the editing function is in place.

We can add the additional outputs except Nvidia. The reason is that Nvidia doesn't publicly differentiate itself when it is using quad buffer, and when it is using a driver extrapolation - even when it certifies itself as being 3D Vision Ready. Instead, we have an entire category dedicated to Nvidia in GameGrade3D, and the Q&A will accurately determine the results regardless of how it was accomplished behind the scenes.

You raise a good point about the 3D outputs on Native. Perhaps the solution is to only allow submissions to be shared one output at a time? Most gamers don't have the luxury of outputting to two or more solutions anyway, and this will separate the results from one to the next. OR, maybe the solution is to list the outputs supported, and which one was actually tested. That may get around the problem too.

Can you elaborate more on the spacing problem you are facing? Browser, platform, etc.?


Author:  BlackShark [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GameGrade3D Beta Launched!

I am under Windows 7-64bit and use Firefox 7.0.1

The spacing between tickboxes is quite large, maybe you could make it a bit smaller to keep the page at a reasonable length
(i tried to attach this PNG shot to my post to this post but it failed, forum bug ?)

When checking a tickbox, the comments and screenshot options appear at the wrong place (I suppose they should appear below the entry). all the previous entries have their presentation modified.
Also the comment and screenshot boxes should have small texts telling what they're here for.
To save some space, I suggest to add some default text already inside the boxes saying "comment (optional)" and "screenshot of bug (optional)" which would automatically disappear when you start typing in the boxes.

For the distinction between 3D Vision explicit, 3D Vision implicit and 3D Vision autonomous drivers, the distinction is indeed difficult to make, you are right nvidia does not usually publish the information, but I think that if we know, we have to make the distinction because it modifies tremendously where the responsibility and credits are due for how well/bad the game works, whether it suits Nvidia's marketing strategy or not.
However, finding a good way to fill this category could be difficult with the current way Game Grade works, it adds lots of questions to an already very long questionnaire.
The same issue occurs with the individual output issues. (and with those we'd even have to add stuff like "did you try this output yourself or do you just copy information from other users/official supported displays list"). It would get really tedious. Having to submit one outputs at a time through multiple reports would be the worst thing to do ! It would basically guarantee we'd never get the complete list of supported outputs for each game.

Solving this problem would require to take GG a step further. I remember in previous conversations explaining how the M3GA questionnaire and the games database were two distinctive things and how the final presentation for users browsing the database results had to change, how the whole interface felt outdated, how the information was too much "raw" and had to be summarized on a per-game basis where the information had to be crossed between reports and brought up to the summary page.
When you announced M3GA version 2 (Game grade) I supposed you meant that, but the current GG beta isn't what I expected, it's actually an updated and more advanced questionnaire. I will certainly help producing more accurate results, but the further we push this approach, the harder it will become to understand the results.

With a per-game summary page, you'd be able to add a separate questionnaire dedicated to adding game information which not everybody can provide in a single report like :
-list of native outputs (with detailed Nvidia 3D vision type of support if available)
-issues with some outputs (link to detailed report)
-special optimisations for a particular driver
-manufacturer or driver certification (3D vision ready, AMD HD3D ready)
-game patch or driver version requirements (if possible add the option to create report to tell what has been fixed by the update)
-important information (where the 3D options menu is located, what tweaking options are available)
-secret config/launch/console commands to tweak parameters (unlock convergence in convergence locked games)
-availability of MODS that fix bugs or improve the 3D experience. (if possible add the option to create report to tell what has been fixed/improved by the mod)

All that information probably won't be provided in a single report, so you need to be able to cross information between multiple reports.
In a second step, the crossing of information can also go the other way, by pre-filling the questionnaire to facilitate user reports.

The questionnaire could come forward and put right on the first page : "other users have reported the following bugs : this, this, this, this... do you also have these issues, to which the user would be able to answer quickly for each issue : "yes i have this bug" (the other report is right) / "yes but..." (modify the comments/add a screenshot) / "no i do not have this bug" (the other report is wrong) / "no I previously had it but it's now fixed" (the other report was right but is outdated)", and only after that having the full questionnaire if the user wants to add something.
This would allow to fill up reports much more quickly and help all bug reports to be more accurate : it would act as a reminder not to forget bugs you spotted at the beginning of the game but which you forgot by the time you finish the game and fill up your report, and it would help the moderator work : not only users would correct each other but you could use this mechanism to automatically find contradictions between reports and flag games which require more reports to find out who is right and who is wrong.
With this scheme, you'd also be able to extract a "user reliability" stat for internal use (it could probably be used to automatically solve contradicting reports, or if two highly ranked users contradict each other, be able to identify a hardware specific bug)
Additionally, if by crossing information you detect that the user is using an old version of the game and that issue the user is describing has already been described by other users as fixed, you could show a panel suggesting the user possible fixes (game or driver updates, or mods already listed on the game's summary page), to which the user would reply : "i haven't tried it" / "i tried it, and it does not work".

Author:  Neil [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GameGrade3D Beta Launched!

Hi Blackshark,

Thanks for the input. The spacing issues, etc. can easily be fixed up.

I'm unconvinced that differentiating Nvidia native and otherwise is a worthwhile exercise. It will just create confusion, and I don't want to get into the politics of who is responsible for what. This is just a compatibility database. The less politics, the better.

Of course we can enhance GG3D further with more report types, etc. This is by no means the final product. At this stage, we wanted to add the features that were really holding us back (screenshots, comments, EDITING, missing platforms, attachable profiles, etc). The next phase will likely focus on community interaction, cross-referencing, voting, etc. - but we needed this core first. This was no small feat and represented countless hours of programming and graphics design.

We have to remember that the participating community is still very small. We needed to prioritize on things that a smaller community could benefit from, and then prepare for the opportunity when the audience and participation levels are much higher and would indeed be submitting multiple profiles for a single game, or be active enough to vote on submissions in a meaningful way. Getting there!

You have some excellent ideas here, and we will explore adding them in the next phase of development.


Author:  Earmack [ Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GameGrade3D Beta Launched!

Hi Neil,
Im already send u a lot of e-mails with questions, bugs, descriptions about GG3D. So Im continue=)

1. I find another one bug. This new bug (after u rebuild GG3D few days ago). Like exmple just now I try reedited SC Conviction profiles (both DDD & IZ3D profiles), after that I see TWO my profiles (not one with new description like old time) DDD + TWO profiles for IZ3D (one old profiles HE don't look like re-edited + one NEW profiles for the same games with same driver version, game name ect.). So at this moment I can't re-edited without dublicated the same profiles or even delete option.

2. Also already sent' u e-mail about game name. Some games don't appear in game title name even if already post profile for this game and always neww MANUAL put name.

3. Always forget to e-mail u about one more think. When I choose "Stereo Implementation:"like example: DDD and choose ignition version 3.3.17 or choose IZ3D & driver version (1.13 RC). After created profile I look on profile in "stereo driver" section I always see only DDD, IZ3D or nVidia (without any number ignition/driver version).

Author:  Neil [ Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GameGrade3D Beta Launched!

Hi Earmack,

We'll look into this for sure. I know our programmer has been hard at work on GG3D, and maybe some of this functionality had to be turned off so he can get some features working.

Thanks for the heads up!


Author:  Earmack [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GameGrade3D Beta Launched!

Any progress/news?

Author:  Neil [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GameGrade3D Beta Launched!

I'm holding my breath too! :mrgreen:

Once the editing feature is complete, I'll share an update on all that has been improved on. We've been busy beavers! :D


Author:  Earmack [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GameGrade3D Beta Launched!

Ok...we wait :D

Author:  Earmack [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GameGrade3D Beta Launched!

Hi Neil, I see we received "edit submitted" profiles, very good, but how i can DELETE already doubled profiles?

Author:  Neil [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GameGrade3D Beta Launched!

Things are still a little buggy and more functionality is still being added. I don't think we will be allowing users to delete entire submissions because they will serve as anchors for other things in the future. However, you should be able to delete individual pictures and uploaded files when the functionality is finished. Things are still getting worked on! :D


Author:  Earmack [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GameGrade3D Beta Launched!

Ok I see, maybe U can delete some my doubled profiles? Arma 2 (ddd), tom clancys' splinter cell conviction (iz3d)...I khow u can;)

Author:  Neil [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GameGrade3D Beta Launched!

Sure. There will be moderator tools, but they aren't finished yet. Given the complexity...too soon! :mrgreen:


Author:  Earmack [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GameGrade3D Beta Launched!

Ok, hope u don't forget to removed this profiles :D

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