Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

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Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by 3dpmaster »

I found some interesting patents for super wide fov.
The Hmd with curved mirror has a vignetting problem but there are other patents also with curved mirrors. Prehaps devices without vignetting.

example: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6522474-0-large.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The optics has to be aligned with the eye surface to avoid vignette.

This is my first construction trial of a curved one.
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Last edited by 3dpmaster on Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Full immersive research:

HMD:
SONY HMZ-T1
FOV: 40° diagonal

HMD project:
FOV: >180°

Link: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14332

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by android78 »

I'm very curious about this project. I assume this is to grind your own mirror?
I think that the finishing of this with such a tight radius will be difficult without deforming the shape.

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by PalmerTech »

The design you show is common, the old i-Glasses units look exactly like that. I don't think it helps achieve wide FOV, though.

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by 3dpmaster »

It is possible to make deep-curved mirrors.
The only problematical case is the mandrel hardness and smoothness.
Some spherical mirrors are made from metal not from glass.
Last edited by 3dpmaster on Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Full immersive research:

HMD:
SONY HMZ-T1
FOV: 40° diagonal

HMD project:
FOV: >180°

Link: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14332

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by 3dpmaster »

update.
Turned path.
Last edited by 3dpmaster on Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Full immersive research:

HMD:
SONY HMZ-T1
FOV: 40° diagonal

HMD project:
FOV: >180°

Link: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14332

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by WiredEarp »

@ 3dpmaster: this is really interesting!! Please keep posting your progress, as i'm very interested myself in the possibility of using mirrors rather than lenses to achieve high FOV.

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by cybereality »

I'm not even sure exactly what I am looking at, but I'm impressed.

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by 3dpmaster »

Thanks for comments,

I try to make a super wide field of view HMD based on the device from a patent.
My first project seemed to came to a dead end. Wide FOV eyepieces are too heavy and they give a maximum fov of 100°.
Even if the eyepieces are rotated away from the parallax alignment, they can reach an angle of 140° together (some hmd's like SEOS(TM) only to 120°).

I'm examining the patent now.
I think there is enough documentation (for me) to make the same HMD.
By hacking the Sony HMZ-T1, I'll get two high quality 720p oled microdisplays for my HMD. furthermore, I need one 360 deg lens for the camera, four curved mirrors etc. .
I know, it is very hard to make diy custom mirrors, but it is possible.
There are different ways to get a deep curved mirror. I try to contact company's specialized in optics.
If my project is on the right track, I'll post some pics.
8-) I'm curious to know how a mirror HMD works. 8-)
Last edited by 3dpmaster on Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Full immersive research:

HMD:
SONY HMZ-T1
FOV: 40° diagonal

HMD project:
FOV: >180°

Link: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14332

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by PalmerTech »

What kind of software do you plan on using to drive this? There are no 3D drivers out there that support adjustable stereo overlap, as far as I know. Will this be for custom applications?

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by 3dpmaster »

Reply to PalmerTech

The 3D overlap is not important because the cylindrical properties of the image are merged with the 3D overlap angle. Only the interpupillary distance (IPD) is important for this wide FOV setup. The image plane is not flat but spherical (Dome). The eyes are always looking in front of the 2 vertical 'domes'. I have to check these spherical geometries.

I do not have any experience with 3D hardware yet, I'm still working with diapositives. In the near future I will buy and hack a Sony HMD. If there are HDMI inputs in the HMZ T1, I can test the omnidirectional video's on the 180deg FOV modified HMD.
The HMD will be custom but if I can, also for gaming etc. A simple fisheye lens cannot be used, I have to use an omnidirectional lens with a hyperbolic geometry.

I'm sure, it is possible change the 3D overlap with software. The pair of "the two virtual viewpoints" can be spread from the parallax direction to determine the 3D overlap in the HMD.
In this case, the 3D overlap would be a software related problem.
Last edited by 3dpmaster on Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Full immersive research:

HMD:
SONY HMZ-T1
FOV: 40° diagonal

HMD project:
FOV: >180°

Link: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14332

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by 3dpmaster »

I found an article about a huge HMD from toshiba.
article:
"A Japanese electronics maker Toshiba Corp. employee demonstrates a full-faced prototype headgear that enables her to get a close to 360-degree image on a dome-shaped screen while the same image is displayed on a monitor screen at Toshiba Corporate Research and Development Center in Kawasaki, west of Tokyo, Oct. 23, 2006. Toshiba, which plans to market the gadget within 2 to 3 years, aiming at attracting people such as virtual reality gamers, said the wearers can get 160 degrees in a horizontal plane and 120 degrees in a vertical plane from any angles their heads turn. (Xinhua/AFP Photo)".

Nice try but:

The screen seems tooo close to the observer and the HMD is SOOOO BIG!!
:lol:
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Full immersive research:

HMD:
SONY HMZ-T1
FOV: 40° diagonal

HMD project:
FOV: >180°

Link: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14332

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by cybereality »

I love that HMD. That thing is the ultimate.

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by WiredEarp »

LOL. That is ridiculous!!!!!

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by 3dpmaster »

180 deg fov Project update, test mirror for 180 degrees fov.
The image overall is impressive but the optical precision and focus coming from the lens should be better.
Pupil exit = 35mm ;)
FOV = 180 degrees per one eye.
I have to make one mirror per eye and look for a better technique to make ONE shaped mirror.
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Last edited by 3dpmaster on Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
Full immersive research:

HMD:
SONY HMZ-T1
FOV: 40° diagonal

HMD project:
FOV: >180°

Link: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14332

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by cybereality »

This looks promising.

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by PalmerTech »

Looking very interesting! Keep us updated, this looks pretty phenomenal.

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by VRgamesterz »

Did you see the pic of the lady when she got out of that washer on her head, It wasn't pretty, I think she also has a lawsuit still pending!

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by android78 »

Damn... can't see the pics. I guess the links for pics are still being worked on with the new upgrade.

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by WiredEarp »

Yeah, annoying. I hope they fix that soon...

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by 3dpmaster »

:D
New update.
New trial with metal (tin alloy or Sn) for smooth mirror surface.

To be continued .....
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Last edited by 3dpmaster on Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Full immersive research:

HMD:
SONY HMZ-T1
FOV: 40° diagonal

HMD project:
FOV: >180°

Link: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14332

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by brantlew »

Cool.

This project is interesting to me but so far beyond my expertise. I have nothing to add but words of encouragement. Keep up the good work...

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by cybereality »

Yeah. This is looking really awesome.

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by Okta »

Being that your curved mirror is after the glass mirror the distance to the eye reduces the possible fov, maybe a large lense can increase this again? Also, shouldn't your curved mirror actually be white projector screen surface? In fact, i dont see the benefit of the curve at all looking at that design link....
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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by PalmerTech »

The curve greatly magnifies the image, that is why it does not need traditional lenses. A projection surface only works with a collimated light source, such as a projection, and then you still need something to modify the focal length.

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by 3dpmaster »

Okta wrote:Being that your curved mirror is after the glass mirror the distance to the eye reduces the possible fov, maybe a large lense can increase this again? Also, shouldn't your curved mirror actually be white projector screen surface? In fact, i dont see the benefit of the curve at all looking at that design link....
For a very wide fov, I skip the planar mirror
The curved mirror has to be as close as possible to the observer. If not, the rays cannot reach the second mirror. All the rays are reflected and guided by both mirrors.
If I have the 2nd mirror, everything will be mounted together with a standard lens or eyepiece (illustration 2).
Now I try to make a better curved mirror without gaps and holes. A lot of work :(
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Last edited by 3dpmaster on Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:34 am, edited 4 times in total.
Full immersive research:

HMD:
SONY HMZ-T1
FOV: 40° diagonal

HMD project:
FOV: >180°

Link: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14332

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by android78 »

The pictures do a wonderful job of explaining the theory. Just a couple of questions though:
1. are you projecting from the side, bottom, or top?
2. Do you need the Planar mirror at all? If you are projecting from the sides, wouldn't it be easier to just project directly onto the hyperbolic mirror? Or is the focal length of the projection lens not acceptable for this?
3. I've been wondering if it would actually be possible to use slotted mirrors with the slots aligned and project through the front of the mirrors?

Thank you for posting this thread here, it's fantastic to see the experimentation and results. I just wonder why there aren't more commercial manufacturers creating products like this. I think if you can get this working acceptably, it would be a great one for kickstarter to get it to actual production. Obviously depending on your own desires.

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by 3dpmaster »

Thanks for comments.

There are several fov researchers like Kaiser, Leepvr, Sencics and Seos but their devices are too expensive for large scaled production (rated price = upto 200 000$ or more).

The mirror technology from the patent is one of the simplest way to get an ultra wide fov.
answers to 1, 2, 3.
1. The image is projected from the bottom
Projecting from the sizes would be difficult because the distortion from the left and the right image would be mirrored one to the other instead of duplication.
2. The planar mirror is used for avoiding the projecting interruption from the observers face.
3. There are reflection problems with see through mirrors in this device.

I will continue my experiments with everything from Diy shops, picking up rubbish and trash. Everything I can get for the ultimate HMD.
Last edited by 3dpmaster on Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Full immersive research:

HMD:
SONY HMZ-T1
FOV: 40° diagonal

HMD project:
FOV: >180°

Link: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14332

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by 3dpmaster »

http://www.siliconmicrodisplay.com/st1080-features.html

Image

:shock:
Wait a minute, is this 1080p ????
180grams??
:o
When will it be on the market?

I will use it with my mirrors.
This is the most awsome thing I ever seen (for dissassembling and make the ultimate hmd)

8-)
Full immersive research:

HMD:
SONY HMZ-T1
FOV: 40° diagonal

HMD project:
FOV: >180°

Link: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14332

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by Frogztar »

Pre-orders are available now. $699 if ordered before march 21 then $799. Shipping is set for May for the US

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by brantlew »

Where have you been? It's been the topic of discussion for the last month. :)

You found it just in time to get the pre-order discount.

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by 3dpmaster »

Too happy too early...
500 usd or 1080p, let me guess....
Lcos is too delicate to handle with. Three screens are packed in a beamsplitter-box full of controllers, difficult to measure the focal length from it.
I think I will choose oled displays, more stable compared to Lcos. Oled is nothing more than a flat screen. A bit confused by the lcos technology. see pictures below
Cinemizer, 720P is not bad at all + shipping fees from Germany to Belgium...... :roll:
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Full immersive research:

HMD:
SONY HMZ-T1
FOV: 40° diagonal

HMD project:
FOV: >180°

Link: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14332

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by WiredEarp »

Yeah, but the Cinemizer is NOT 720P.

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by 3dpmaster »

I do not understand.
I mean there are:
1080p TV screens,
1080p monitors,
1080p camcorders,
But there is only one 1080p HMD on the market?
Why aren't they just follow the technology of today?

Does the Sony have the real 720p HMD? Hopefully, else I have to wait again and again. :x
Full immersive research:

HMD:
SONY HMZ-T1
FOV: 40° diagonal

HMD project:
FOV: >180°

Link: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14332

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by cybereality »

Yes, Sony has a 100% native 720P resolution. It looks great.

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by 3dpmaster »

cybereality wrote:Yes, Sony has a 100% native 720P resolution. It looks great.
Thanks!
I 'll buy it in the near future.
Full immersive research:

HMD:
SONY HMZ-T1
FOV: 40° diagonal

HMD project:
FOV: >180°

Link: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14332

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by Frogztar »

3dpmaster wrote:I do not understand.
I mean there are:
1080p TV screens,
1080p monitors,
1080p camcorders,
But there is only one 1080p HMD on the market?
Why aren't they just follow the technology of today?

Does the Sony have the real 720p HMD? Hopefully, else I have to wait again and again. :x
Currently, the accepted input format for HMD's is HDMI 1.4a. This does not have the bandwidth capability to support more than 1080p@30Hz which is not that pleasant. This means for the best experience, halving the resolution would allow you to double the framerate within the bandwidth constraints. Because of this, standard output is 720p@60hz which, when scaled up on a 1080p panel does not look very nice (without lots of AA, but even then...). Thus, in order to produce the best picture quality with the current format, a 720p panel is the logical choice.

Dual DVI or display port are capable of 1080p@60hz but I think (please correct me if I am wrong) there have only been specific model graphics cards that support 3D with dual DVI and as for DP... anyone know?

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by WiredEarp »

Dual DVI or display port are capable of 1080p@60hz but I think (please correct me if I am wrong) there have only been specific model graphics cards that support 3D with dual DVI and as for DP... anyone know?
Not sure if I'm quite understanding correctly... Dual link DVI supports 1920x1080 @ 120hz, from most any DVI video card (I think).

Certainly my GTX460 and my GTX580, can both drive my Alienware monitor @ 1920x1080 @ 120hz.

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by Frogztar »

I'm not saying 1080p@60hz is the maximum capability, I'm saying 1080p@60hz is a minimum for comfort. Dual DVI output is possible with most cards, but can throw up errors when mixing in different 3D formats (and not many of the less expensive consumer HMD's use Dual DVI).

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by 3dpmaster »

The new mirrors are not ready yet. So I post some old memories from April 2003.
A diy polishing machine able to make any shape of lenses, meniscus, half spheric, two sized, ....
All the lenses were made from casting resin. Similar to the Leep optics, I tried to make a super wide fov viewmaster with 6x6 prints. The primary lens on the polishing machine is a very special one. It has a half spheric hollow side and a spheric size over the middle.
The lens is shaped in the form of the observer's eye socket. Result= Full field of view.

However, the assembly is too heavy and the 'rainbow' abberation at the edges is so annoying.
The process was very exciting and instructive, now I'm able to make a small lens with a drill press and sandpaper sticked on a cylindrical shape. No chisel, no lathe, no milling machine, no cnc, .,.,...

;)
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Full immersive research:

HMD:
SONY HMZ-T1
FOV: 40° diagonal

HMD project:
FOV: >180°

Link: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14332

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Re: Compact 180 deg fov HMD's still possible?

Post by cybereality »

Cool.

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