Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by Likay »

MrGreen wrote:
brantlew wrote:Yes nateight! And here's more proof of treachery by Palmer and his diabolical forum minions !!

http://the-games-veda.blogspot.com/2013 ... owing.html
Holy poop that guy needs help. No, really.
True. Someone tell him that there's an entire world that exists without a keyboard and computerscreen... Nah, who am i fooling. :mrgreen:
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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by geekmaster »

nateight wrote:... I think nearly all of us would encourage members like geekmaster to expand rather than modulate the altogether more constructive sharing of their minds with this community ...
I get my daily dopamine fix by sharing the best parts my mind, so no worries there, mate!

This post began my rise to "forum celebrity" status at another forum:
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showth ... p?t=170241

And this later post pushed the accelerator pedal even more:
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showth ... p?t=170929

But this thread is one of many that gives me a sense of accomplishment:
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showth ... p?t=177455

I will do good things here too, when I stop cruising the Rift forums and instead get my dopamine fix in pure Rift code creation. ;)
Last edited by geekmaster on Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by geekmaster »

Likay wrote:... there's an entire world that exists without a keyboard and computer screen...
Really? Where?
Likay wrote:... Nah, who am i fooling. :mrgreen:
Ahh... Good! You had me worried there for a moment... :lol:

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by Likay »

Yeah. That's pure nonsense of course. I'm still almost 100% positive that i've heard it at some occasion. Age play games with the brain. Sorry for the scare.
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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by strangedays »

this is the worst thread on the whole internet. im serious. i logged in just to say that. thanks for not locking it so i could point that out. maybe we could put a disclaimer in the thread title. worst thread. whole internet. whhoooolee internet. and lets put a time reference on it ... ever. i feel like i need to say it one more time but i wont. ok i cant help it. ... worst thread .... whole internet ... ever.

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by kalabalik »

OP just can't accept he doesn't know the story better than the actual people involved, than goes on a crying nerd rage spree when he's constantly shot down with proof, evidence and actual facts.

Then what's the solution?
Yeah a hate thread! That'll show us who's the man! Or boy. Very angry boy. With hubris.

Bye bye angry man we'll miss ya dearly!

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by geekmaster »

Let the nerd rage be forgotten for awhile. This free "Hacker's Heaven" MP3 song from Steve Savitzky is what the Rift is all about:
http://steve.savitzky.net/Songs/heaven/heaven.mp3

Although this song seems to be more about John Carmack's "other hobby", it applies well here too.

And then there is the most excellent other kind of "Nurd Rage":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g_ml8tAnWE

Smile and enjoy! :D
Last edited by geekmaster on Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by Likay »

So it begun. The killing of yet another excellent thread with videos and nonsense interesting stuffs thus making it interesting. Thank you! :lol:
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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by langmyersknow »

That's why people need to think and actually have evidence for their claims, if not than we are no different than those religious moderates who want people to learn about creationism in the science classroom.

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by Falan »

I was scrolling down through this thread thinking 'what this thread needs is some Geekmaster' and POW there it is lol :D

POW RIGHT IN THE KISSER!

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by Nemic »

FFS. Drop the damn keyboard and go buy a case of beer.

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by Chriky »

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I remember why I avoid this board...

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by strangedays »

ever.

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by Jalaman »

I could feel my brain melting while reading this thread. :roll:

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by Bleppe »

kalabalik wrote:OP just can't accept he doesn't know the story better than the actual people involved, than goes on a crying nerd rage spree when he's constantly shot down with proof, evidence and actual facts.

Then what's the solution?
Yeah a hate thread! That'll show us who's the man! Or boy. Very angry boy. With hubris.

Bye bye angry man we'll miss ya dearly!
I'm not so sure it's a man... or boy.

I think it's...

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MAN-BEAR-PIG!

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by blazespinnaker »

Addressing the OP's point:

I must agree with Palmer: Carmack did not make the Rift or really any important part of it. Palmer, based on help from mtbs3d community; what he learned about the leep HMD; with help, ideas and advice he got from ict building the fov2go; plus experience he got from other mod communities plus of course his own clearly autodidactic brain - built the Rift. You can get all this info from this forum here.

Carmack did help make the Rift famous. This is pretty obvious because he gets front and center on the Rift Kickstarter video. He's also a pretty well known dude in the VR space. I wonder if Carmack ever got any equity for it. Who knows.

But all that being said, what everyone did .. Carmack, Palmer, an everyone else... all they did was OBVIOUS tweaks to already well known prior art. The HMD is basically a leep clone (Palmer admits to this several times) + cool head tracking (which other companies were already doing and already have patents for, some now expired).

The big leap here is not what Palmer did, but the fact that the technology .. low latency IMU + high res light weight LCDs improved (palmer himself admits to this in the Kickstarter video, as does the CEO in other places, etc). Palmer just re-implemented all the prior art at the right time with the new tech.

That's really all it is.

Let me say again, the Oculus Rift is a LEEP CLONE + IMU

There is no incredible patentable material here and there is already vast amounts of prior art and patents on head tracking.

Now, the Oculus guys will write patents around the Oculus rift (they have to, they have big investors), but they will have to be narrow patents which will describe their specific approach to solving these problems, and they will have to show what they've done differently than the leep folks and the other head tracking folks. And I guarantee you, those patents will easily be invalidated if they don't ref enough prior art or they will easily be avoided because they will have to be so narrow.

Patent examiners will not just let them write patents on obvious tweaks.

Direlight, if you still are feeling the rage, I suggest you save it for when Oculus files their patents. I'll be happy to review them with you.

Before anyone feels like replying, here's an oldie but a goodie where Palmer argues about how there is all this prior art on someone elses patent:

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=14658

I guess now that the shoes are on the other feet, he might feel differently. Money will do that to you, I guess.

Another good one (Palmers first post from 2009 talking about LEEP and getting advice from the forum)

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... eep#p29650

It would really sadden me to see such generous assistance people gave Palmer for free only to see him turn around and try to patent it.

Makes me want to avoid helping anyone myself or sharing any ideas.
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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by blazespinnaker »

And before anyone starts saying, they need patents or poor OculusVR when the console guys run over them, realize this - they could sell out to Sony or Microsoft for 50 million or so, making Palmer a millionaire many times over.

Is it the next Facebook? No, but, you know, being a multi millionaire is hardly anything to feel sorry for.
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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by geekmaster »


That video made my cheeks hurt! I smiled too hard! :mrgreen:

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by ftarnogol »

geekmaster wrote:
shiva wrote:Yeaaah... nateight is being blatently ironic and mocking direlight here. Don't really know how you missed that
Some of the most intelligent people often have problems recognizing social situations that may seem obvious to others, such as satire and irony. Although nateight's post did seem to be badly "out of character" for him, I did not for a second even imagine that it could mean anything but literally what it said. I tend to take things at face value. Although I love to use high-brow dry humor myself, I am rather poor at recognizing such things in the posts of others.

If indeed that is the case here, oops. However, going back and reading it again, I still do not see any clues, making it hard NOT to believe that it was serious. What clues did I miss?

I wish people would give more hints about the content of irony (like a wink smiley or something) when what they say is not what they mean, for humorous purposes. I need more hints and clues. Technology is so much easier to understand than sociology, at least for me...

@nateight: If I completely misunderstood the point of your "off the rails" post, sorry dude! I didn't have a clue! :o
Given the frequency of this type of situations, I propose we add a "Geekmaster" disclaimer to ironic posts :lol: :lol:

Disclaimer: this was an ironic post
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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by geekmaster »

ftarnogol wrote:Given the frequency of this type of situations, I propose we add a "Geekmaster" disclaimer to ironic posts :lol: :lol:

Disclaimer: this was an ironic post
I just see things "differently" from many other people. Things obvious to me may not be to others, while things obvious to others may not be to me. This works really great when I need to solve STEM problems, but not so well for dealing with social issues.

Our perceptions of reality, and the line between possible and impossible, may be far apart in space and time.

What is possible on the outside is determined mostly by what we believe on the inside.

At times I think so far "outside the box", that as far as I can tell "there is no box"...

Impossibility is mostly in our minds. What can be achieved is limited only by our imaginations.

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/266525
;)

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by MrGreen »

Now you're starting to sound like KBK. :lol:

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by KBK »

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Intelligence... is not inherent - it is a point in understanding. Q: When does a fire become self sustaining?

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by KBK »

I only know one thing. If it is yours, and you put it out there, it is not yours anymore and the price of ownership for the new buyer...is free. No cost.

So don't put it out there if you can't accept the tradeoff.
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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by DannyO »

What if Palmer Luckey IS John Carmack? and he stole the Rift from himself.




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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by Likay »

I smell matrixvirus. Where's Smiths?
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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by geekmaster »

Likay wrote:I smell matrixvirus. Where's Smiths?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCgCQMeUjDQ

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by ftarnogol »

Impossibility is mostly in our minds. What can be achieved is limited only by our imaginations.
Amen... and continuing in line with KBK's rhetoric :D ... we are living at the start of the quantum paradigm and our society is only starting to realize its implications. A particle can have multiple histories... anything is possible, we just need to make the box disappear:

Awesome post. I read it years ago.
http://blogs.hbr.org/pallotta/2011/11/s ... e-box.html
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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by geekmaster »

ftarnogol wrote:
Impossibility is mostly in our minds. What can be achieved is limited only by our imaginations.
Amen... and continuing in line with KBK's rhetoric :D ... we are living at the start of the quantum paradigm and our society is only starting to realize its implications. A particle can have multiple histories... anything is possible, we just need to make the box disappear:

Awesome post. I read it years ago.
...
http://blogs.hbr.org/pallotta/2011/11/stop-thinking-outside-the-box.html wrote:So figure out the box you're in. If you try to get out before you understand the box's parameters, you'll just stay stuck inside of it. And that's exactly what it wants.
Exactly! When you truly understand the box's parameters, you begin to realize that "there is no box". You just see columns of glittering green glyphs floating down the screen, and the future is yours to create.

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by PalmerTech »

Direlight wrote:Doom 3 BFG was under NDA at the time so Palmer could literally not of seen the code unless Carmack was breaking NDA, this was NEW code done days before e3.
And you assume we were not under NDA... Why? Carmack and I get along very well, I don't understand this assumption that there is some kind of grand conspiracy to hide his true contributions.

I sort of want to go through your post and explain what is wrong with it, but it would largely be an exercise in repetition. It is not really a fair post, either, you make it appear as if I made that last post without you arguing for several more posts that my information is incorrect. If you are going to keep referencing badly written incorrect articles instead of actual first hand information, there is really nothing I can do.

If you don't want to bother look through my post history, you might want to take a look at Carmack's posts instead. He talks about most of this, and does a much better job than anyone else possibly could. You will also find out that Doom 3 was not even the first thing Carmack got the Rift working with, which your whole post seems to be based on!

If I offended you, I apologize. Try to understand that when the Rift first got publicized, a lot of people were literally calling it Carmack's invention and not even mentioning my name, despite Carmack giving them all of the information! It might be based on a lot of the technology that came before it, but I am sure you can see how it would be frustrating for other people to get credit for something that you spent years of your life working on.

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by MrGreen »

IT'S ALIVE! :o

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by blazespinnaker »

If I offended you, I apologize. Try to understand that when the Rift first got publicized, a lot of people were literally calling it Carmack's invention and not even mentioning my name, despite Carmack giving them all of the information! It might be based on a lot of the technology that came before it, but I am sure you can see how it would be frustrating for other people to get credit for something that you spent years of your life working on.
Carmack wasn't going out of his way to give you credit though :) Not surprising the confusion was made. Anyways, you guys clarified things pretty well in the kickstarter video.
how it would be frustrating for other people to get credit for something that you spent years of your life working on.
How about giving credit to all the help, suggestions, and advice you got from MTBS3D? It's not my place I suppose to ask for that, but to see you try to take the credit without properly referring to LEEP VR and the suggestions from the MTBS3D crowd to look at that (http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... eep#p29650) makes me paranoid about helping someone else.


The fun things about these forums and sharing ideas is because I assume everything said here is going into the public domain and nobody can patent it or even its derivations. It feels like a great big collective group of people trying to help each other.

If you guys try to patent the Rift, I personally feel like you'll be undermining that sense of community. Well, at least for me.

Put another way, what would your take on it be if someone else starts making and selling their own version of a LEEP VR clone + head tracking? What if Omni (or some other ODT manufacturer) sells one with with their ODT?

Are you going to press your patent claims against them?
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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by Frito »

Palmer did what you could not. End of story.

PD> grow up.

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by PalmerTech »

blazespinnaker wrote:How about giving credit to all the help, suggestions, and advice you got from MTBS3D? It's not my place I suppose to ask for that, but to see you try to take the credit without properly referring to LEEP VR and the suggestions from the MTBS3D crowd to look at that (http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... eep#p29650) makes me paranoid about helping someone else.

Put another way, what would your take on it be if someone else starts making and selling their own version of a LEEP VR clone + head tracking?
I frequently credit the community and the companies that came before us. If you don't see that, just watch more of my interviews. It does not make it into a lot of print articles because that is not what the press wants to write about. In fact, I talk extensively about LEEP at the very first public event I did on a panel at Quakecon last year. If you have any actual examples of me trying to "take the credit" of something someone else did, certainly let me know. I have also said many times that I welcome people getting into the HMD space, the bigger this market gets, the more validated it becomes.

I don't know what you mean about the Rift being a "LEEP VR clone" though, the old LEEP headsets are very, very different from the Rift. They were dual panel, triple lens, mechanically tracked, did not correct for distortion, and had large weight balancing mount points. The only thing they share with the Rift is a wide field of view, along with the radial compression artifacts you get with any kind of high magnification lenses in any optical system.

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by KBK »

A couple of things need clarification, and due to the nature of the situation; to sound reasonable and to not gather emotions from other people, and have them aimed at him - these questions cannot be easily answered by Palmer. For Palmer to say these things that need be said, might be taken as ego and posturing - by some.

I'll try to give it a neutral shot. To make it stick, it needs be said by someone who is not directly, or even indirectly involved:

When you start a company, the public presentation requires a figurehead of sorts. In this case, the energies will have to gather around Palmer.

This figurehead, will have to have a story, a yarn that is spun, for public consumption. Be it a tale told by the corporation itself, or by the reporters from the various news sources, groups who need exciting type and data, to weave their engrossing yarns. A spiel, a pitch, a framed poster and posterchild to be imaged and consumed. This is the nature of the modern world. Heck, it is the nature of the ancient world, or any human endeavor that is in the public eye.

These focusing requirements are based on human nature. A situation must be framed and projected, and it must be stable and solid. It can have no questions, no weaknesses, just answers.

Whether Palmer or anyone at oculus is comfortable with it or not, someone gets to be stuck into that slot - and that is the way of it.

Secondly, this is a situation, with a company, or corporation, that the company be seen and known as operationally smooth and cohesive. Investors and investments also require a solid front. The company must be operational, stable, moving forward, etc. It must be seen as a well oiled and working machine. The company has to also be responsible to shareholders and to it's future. It must be beholden to it's people that it employs and works with, it must care for and involve itself in the stability and nature of their futures. Palmer, as a figurehead, must adopt a posture, and in some cases, stony silence, depending on the nature of the situation.



An example is: when I became involved in such things as the creation of companies and corporations for the purposes of manufacturing and selling products, it was demanded by my partners, that I cease and desist any form of debate and contact in forums, as I was known for producing much grinding and painful sand in the vaginas of the more volatile members of some forums. That behavior of mine, which would have degraded the company image, and decreased sales and future viability, was no longer allowed. That I could not be a 'loose cannon' anymore. I was forced to publicly act a different way and be at a different level.


Another point is that if you folks wanted and still want HMD's and VR to go mainstream, then this had to happen and take place via someone, some channel, some method.

And this is the way it rolled out and is rolling out.

So be happy that it is happening, and that someone and some group is getting it done. If you don't like it, then start your own works. :)

Due to human nature, some won't see it so clearly, some will still attack.

And Palmer, in the thick of it, being able to see it from all sides, is probably getting to know exactly what the hell I am talking about, even if others cannot see it. The other guy that knows this, who is near him, is Brendan, and the other folks who also came from differing successful start ups (or connected to Brendan). They know the drill.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the drill - exactly what you see happening in front of you now. Simply the way it has to be. No evil, no nasty, nothing but the way things work and the way it has to be.
Last edited by KBK on Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by WiredEarp »

@ KBK: Wow, thats really a very informative post.

Guys, before anyone complains about the way Palmer has done things, please try to imagine anyone who could have done it better (so far at least).

There are so many asswank companies and ceo's around etc, that I'm really stoked that he has done so well, yet managed to not become a complete prick (at least, with the visibility we have of him). He was always very active, and posting about all the HMD's he created (I actually bought a MRG VR+ HMD to recreate one of his original PR prototypes, although I never got around to swapping the screen due to the speed of his advancements), and he has always been polite and helpful. As he points out, the LEEP thing is not really prior art -those HMD's were very different. That said, I may not agree with everything ever claimed, but those things have so far been a matter for dealing with in a point by point matter, on a reasonable basis.
Lets not bitch at him for things he hasn't done yet. Wanting to protect what he HAS done, is understandable.

It might be good for us to have a patent thread, where we can discuss new patents issued that are regarding to VR.

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by Falan »

Yay always awesome to hear from you Palmer even if it was a bad thread, just got my rift yesterday and its amazing thanks so much for making this possible. Not the sickness though lol im sure it will go away eventually! Cant wait for the next dev kit or consumer version thanks a million :)

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by JanVR »

Direlight wrote:
It’s worth noting that the prototype Carmack is demoing wasn’t made by him, but by another Texan builder of VR headsets.
The truth is finally coming out - I am the Texan inventor of the Rift!

JK obviously. This threat is highly entertaining, but anyone who has been on this forum long enough understands the silliness of this thread and any allegations.

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cybereality
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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by cybereality »

Funny how the Rift is nothing like LEEP, except for being an HMD.

It's like people don't even bother to get the facts straight before making an accusation.

What kind of world are we living in? (@Geekmaster: this is an irony or joke, not sure which).

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Re: Forum "celebs" and inventing arguments

Post by geekmaster »

cybereality wrote:... What kind of world are we living in? (@Geekmaster: this is an irony or joke, not sure which).
Definitely ironeous, ironically speaking, of course. ;)
:lol:
Last edited by geekmaster on Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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