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 FPV (remote control planes) and the Oculus Rift 
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One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
Hi,

I would like to use the Oculus Rift for FPV (first person view) flying of a remote-control plane. Unfortunately I didn't get my Oculus Rift yet, so I couldn't do any testings yet.
And again unfortunately I haven't done FPV before. (Though I am able to fly a rc-plane from ground position)

I'm a computer scientist, but I have no knowledge of electronics, so some of my questions might be stupid ones, I'm sorry if that happens. Additionally I'm from germany, and
english isn't my mother language, so I might formulate some things in a "funny" way maybe.

From what I've read so far, there are some big problems with OR and FPV which I try to list here:

- OR has no analog video input but FPV video data is transmitted analog, so there needs to be a converter which might cause an unbearable high latency
- There needs to be some kind of magic video transformation from whatever the RC-planes cameras send to what the OR needs.
- There's a lot of little electronics needed to get the whole system working, and I'm not 100% sure which ones I need.

So what I started is making a list of things needed. (If I missed things, it'd be great if people could tell me)

Needed:
- a RC-plane
- two light-weight cameras
- an analog video transmitter
- an analog video receiver
- a analog -> digital video converter
- an Oculus Rift
- some software to convert the video to OR-needed-format

Since I'm not sure when my OR will arrive, I thought I could start working at some other part of that chain. (Though I'm not sure which one would be the one that'd make most sense,
maybe I'll first get transmitter+receiver, hook up my friends gopro hero-cam at the one side, and try to get the whole stream displayed on a laptop ?)

Additionally I'm really unsure what components to buy. (I've given me a budget of 1000€ at max, excluding the OR)

Help in general would be greatly appreciated :) (What I'd especially would like to prevent is me buying stuff that won't work)

regards,
Malicor


Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:42 am
Cross Eyed!

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:24 pm
Posts: 159
For head tracking you would need gimbals with servo motors to change the orientation of the cameras. You'd also need to move the cameras laterally to adjust for IPD on the RC.


Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:52 am
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
Maybe you all could help me to get a specific list of what products exactly would be well suited ? like

camera: 2 x http://www.amazon.de/Kamera-Zubeh%C3%B6 ... 009PK9S90/
video transmitter+receiver: 1 x http://...


Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:57 am
Petrif-Eyed
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Posts: 2708
There are other Rift FPV threads. You may want to check them out for more content on this subject.

Need advice on my DIY FPV HMD project
viewtopic.php?f=120&t=17162

Using the rift with an RCA signal
viewtopic.php?f=140&t=16366

remote control VR
viewtopic.php?f=120&t=16176

Telepresence / Rotating Stereoscopic Camera (3D FPV)
viewtopic.php?f=140&t=16391

Rift Stereo Lens System
viewtopic.php?f=140&t=15938

And FPV is also discussed in 228 (at this time) posts in other related (and unrelated) threads:
search.php?keywords=fpv

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Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:08 am
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
I've read through those article, but none seem to mention specific items. (Which camera(s), which transmitter/receiver, which analog->digital converter, which software to convert the video into rift-compatible form (whatever that might be).

What things do you guys use ?

regards, Malicor


Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:01 am
Two Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:01 pm
Posts: 68
malicor wrote:
I've read through those article, but none seem to mention specific items. (Which camera(s), which transmitter/receiver, which analog->digital converter, which software to convert the video into rift-compatible form (whatever that might be).

What things do you guys use ?

regards, Malicor


I'm pretty sure everything of importance has been mentioned in this thread, read a bit more: viewtopic.php?f=140&t=16366

A camera with hove FOV/fisheye lens is best because it compensates for the optic distortion in the rift. I use a GoPro. Tx/rx doesn't matter, use whatever you'd normally use, everything has it's pros and cons. I don't think the choice of hdmi converter matters either, any should work. You can use a 2D-to-SBS3D converter to make the image work decently on the rift. You'd also need to shift the images optically to create 100% image overlap. This can in theory be accomplished by modifying one of the eyepiece pairs, moving the lenses further apart.

Some guys on rcgroups are working on an open FPGA device that automatically converts the image into a rift compatible image, but it might take a while for it to be finished.


Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:00 am
Petrif-Eyed
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I can view the OLD "5.6-inch Rift prototype" videos (full overlap) on a 7-inch screen using a pair of the 2-inch 5x aspheric acrylic lenses recommended in the "DIY Rift" thread. I shift them both outward a little (to fit next to my nose), which also shifts the images inward for full stereoscopic overlap. There is a little tangential distortion when viewing through offset lenses (not through the optical axis), but it is not that annoying, and only in the outer edges of the image.

Lens shift offset should work great for FPV use (and much simpler than electronic image shifting).

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Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:12 am
Two Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:01 pm
Posts: 68
geekmaster wrote:
I can view the OLD "5.6-inch Rift prototype" videos (full overlap) on a 7-inch screen using a pair of the 2-inch 5x aspheric acrylic lenses recommended in the "DIY Rift" thread. I shift them both outward a little (to fit next to my nose), which also shifts the images inward for full stereoscopic overlap. There is a little tangential distortion when viewing through offset lenses (not through the optical axis), but it is not that annoying, and only in the outer edges of the image.

Lens shift offset should work great for FPV use (and much simpler than electronic image shifting).


Have you tried modifying one of the included eyepieces? Does it work equally well? I'd rather not pay $40 for those lenses.


Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:25 am
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
i think about buying this to start with:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/5-8Ghz-FPV-Video ... 0826760814

is there a reason why that'd be a stupid idea, or could i go with this for starters ?

regards,
malicor


Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:35 pm
Petrif-Eyed
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malicor wrote:
i think about buying this to start with:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/5-8Ghz-FPV-Video ... 0826760814

is there a reason why that'd be a stupid idea, or could i go with this for starters ?

regards,
malicor
They claim 720p, but also FM video modulation. NTSC and PAL do not support that so it must be nonstandard. In the USA, the FCC only allows standard NTSC modulation. It would make more sense to claim that resolution if it were digital video, but the specs say analog (FM). Those kinds of discrepancies make me want to do more research before laying down my money...

And you still need a way to get TWO SBS images on the Rift screen. There are active discussions of such details in other threads.

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Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:03 pm
Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:47 pm
Posts: 1498
The camera is 720P, but its just a standard RC305 receiver and I assume a standard transmitter.

Effective resolution once received at the ground station will be around 640x480 I believe.


Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:03 pm
Petrif-Eyed
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WiredEarp wrote:
The camera is 720P, but its just a standard RC305 receiver and I assume a standard transmitter.

Effective resolution once received at the ground station will be around 640x480 I believe.
Except you lose half your horizontal resolution for color encoding. You would need two channels to transmit S-Video...

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Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:12 pm
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:18 am
Posts: 46
Hi.

I have a Hoten-X FPV. This is a nice, all in one package.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZUojEiOYH4


Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:20 pm
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
Some people suggest that using one camera is enough, others say that there's great effects possible with two cameras.
I wonder what would make more sense for the Oculus Rift. If I'd buy two gopro hero3, that'd already make 600€ of my 1000€ budget.

Maybe one could arrange the two cameras somehow that their position can be changed dynamically ? So you can get them closer together/further apart while flying,
thereby changing the perspective of view ?

If I have two cameras, do I need two transmitter/receiver ? Or can both data be sent by one ?


Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:40 am
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
how about using this as transmitter/receiver ?

http://quadcopters.co.uk/fpv-58ghz-txrx ... -193-p.asp


Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:43 am
Two Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:01 pm
Posts: 68
You'd be better off asking about tx/rx systems on a forum dedicated to FPV. The choice of tx/rx set has no impact on the rift experience.


Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:48 am
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
Grix wrote:
You'd be better off asking about tx/rx systems on a forum dedicated to FPV. The choice of tx/rx set has no impact on the rift experience.


That's an excellent idea actually :) I'll do that.


Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:10 am
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
Any opinions on these two cameras ? Might they be suited ?

http://hobbywireless.com/index.php?main ... cts_id=931
http://hobbywireless.com/index.php?main ... cts_id=687

Which one might work better with the Oculus Rift ?


Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:19 pm
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
hi,

i've got my camera now, it's a:

http://www.foxtechfpv.com/horyzonhd-ful ... p-877.html

i've got a 5.8ghz transmitter/receiver, too

what i'm now missing is a way to convert the analog video into digital (i've read that i could use a raspberry pi for that ? is that correct ? will it be fast enough so i won't have intolerable latency ? )
and a way how to get the video-stream into "oculus-rift"-format.

could someone help me with any of this by chance ?

regards, malicor


Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:35 am
Two Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:01 pm
Posts: 68
As said about four times already, read this thread: viewtopic.php?f=140&t=16366
All your questions are answered right there. In short, so far there is no simple way to make the signal work without some modifications and equipment (info in thread). A raspberry pi will not work as of now.


Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:48 am
Petrif-Eyed
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malicor wrote:
hi,

i've got my camera now, it's a:

http://www.foxtechfpv.com/horyzonhd-ful ... p-877.html

i've got a 5.8ghz transmitter/receiver, too

what i'm now missing is a way to convert the analog video into digital (i've read that i could use a raspberry pi for that ? is that correct ? will it be fast enough so i won't have intolerable latency ? )
and a way how to get the video-stream into "oculus-rift"-format.

could someone help me with any of this by chance ?

regards, malicor
People have reported success using the cheap ($6?) USB video capture dongles with a Raspberry Pi, but many people have had difficulty with those popular cheap USB capture devices because different vendors of the SAME DEVICE use different chipsets, and some are not RasPi driver-compatible. As with a lot of cheap Chinese clones, you need to be vigilant of exactly what you are getting based on other peoples experiences (or shotgun it and order from many vendors, and just use the units that contain the chipset you need). Then the RasPi can digitized video and output a pair of Rift-warped images. I am not sure if the RasPi can read video from TWO of those USB video digitizers simultaneously, but I do not see why not (perhaps with configuration tweaks).

Alternatively, you can do 3D video with one camera and mirrors, like this (but with smaller mirrors like dental mirrors):
http://hackaday.com/2010/09/08/sterosco ... ne-camera/

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Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:44 am
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
something like this here ? http://www.amazon.com/EasyCAP-Audio-Cap ... B000Z4AQFU

how would i know which one i'd have to get, and where ? could you by chance provide me with a link ?

would it matter which raspberry pi to get ? i heard there are slightly different versions ?

will latency be a problem ?

regards and thanks for help,
malicor


Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:55 am
Petrif-Eyed
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malicor wrote:
something like this here ? http://www.amazon.com/EasyCAP-Audio-Cap ... B000Z4AQFU

how would i know which one i'd have to get, and where ? could you by chance provide me with a link ?

would it matter which raspberry pi to get ? i heard there are slightly different versions ?

will latency be a problem ?

regards and thanks for help,
malicor
Here is the code to use it on a RasPi (if it has the correct chipset):
http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewt ... 33&t=18831

I have seen them cheaper on eBay. Here is an eBay store that has them at BIN price $6.58, free shipping (but not sure about chipset):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251252308342

You need to read the RasPi/EasyCap threads on the RasPi forums to find a reliable source of EasyCap devices with the correct chipset(s).

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Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:03 am
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
thanks for your help, it's really appreciated :) i'll look into this next topic then.


Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:10 am
Petrif-Eyed
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malicor wrote:
thanks for your help, it's really appreciated :) i'll look into this next topic then.
More info:
http://easycap.blogspot.com/2013/03/ras ... vices.html

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Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:18 am
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
hi,

my raspberry pi and the easycap have arrived, and i'll try to get them work together now, but i stumbled upon this here in your description:

Quote:
Hi,

I tried driver for easycap from here:
https://github.com/ezequielgarcia/stk1160-standalone

Raspberry Pi has too slow cpu for for high-resolution. In my opinion easycap will work for 320x240.


if it really works only for that low resolution (and i was unable to play a hd-video with vlcplayer on it), then the raspberry pi might not be suitable at all ?

any hints/suggestions here ?


Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:39 pm
Petrif-Eyed
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malicor wrote:
hi,

my raspberry pi and the easycap have arrived, and i'll try to get them work together now, but i stumbled upon this here in your description:

Quote:
Hi,

I tried driver for easycap from here:
https://github.com/ezequielgarcia/stk1160-standalone

Raspberry Pi has too slow cpu for for high-resolution. In my opinion easycap will work for 320x240.


if it really works only for that low resolution (and i was unable to play a hd-video with vlcplayer on it), then the raspberry pi might not be suitable at all ?

any hints/suggestions here ?
Color video is only about 360 pixels wide anyway (due to NTSC or PAL encoding), and interlacing gives you twice the vertical resolution. And 320 or 360 are only different in that they use different pixel clocks. So 360x480 should be doable if configured right, although the device driver may be a limitation (not the hardware).

All I am saying is that *I* could probably do it, if I were willing to spend (perhaps up to hundreds of) hours of my time researching it. I am not, so you need to figure out what the existing software limitations are. I have a long history of pushing hardware way beyond the perceived limits even its designers thought it had, but that comes at a high price in terms of time, needing to study it as close to the "bare metal" as I can get...

You really need to try it. 320x240 may not be as bad as you think, because NTSC is already just two interlaced fields of 240 pixels anyway.

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Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:04 pm
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
i thought since the OR has 1280x800pixel and the fpv-flycam has 1080p even, i could get that somehow or at least close to it. (i didn't know that analog video transmission is as bad as 320x240pixel).


Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:16 pm
Petrif-Eyed
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malicor wrote:
i thought since the OR has 1280x800pixel and the fpv-flycam has 1080p even, i could get that somehow or at least close to it. (i didn't know that analog video transmission is as bad as 320x240pixel).
Oh, so your FPV cam uses digital broadcasting then? NTSC or PAL encoding would severly downsample it. How do you get HD camera data into a composite video jack on the USB dongle without downsampling?

Remember, composite video is FILTERED to remove all the high frequency components (over 360 horiz) so it does not interfere with the 3.58MHz color signal. For higher horizontal res you either need two channels (i.e. S-Video) or you need monochrome (colorburst off).

And if your camera and Tx/Rx are digital, you cannot use an analog video digitizer USB stick anyway.

So, what exactly are your plans for a 1080p camera, and what Tx/Rx are you using? The RasPi has GPIO so perhaps it can read the raw digital video already (perhaps at reduced resolution, depending on what digital compression is used). Many digicams use MJPEG, which is relatively easy to decode.

It seems (to me) that you have a conflicting set of hardware requirements there... Please clarify...

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Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:08 pm
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
no, you misunderstood me here.

i want to have 2 setups

setup a: inside a big room / sports-hall where i'll use digital video transmission (i probably won't need the raspberry pi there at all). i don't have a digital video transmission system yet though.
i thought of getting something like http://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Multimedi ... 07-6875705 though i have no idea if it will work with this at all.

setup b: outsides for fpv, there i'll use analog transmission on 5.8ghz, and without having hd. i'll have to bear with whatever i can get analog, though i thought it's in the range of 640x480 and not 320x240.

how would i use two channels and then s-video ?
would it be possible to use 4 channels and have even better video ?


Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:22 am
Two Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:01 pm
Posts: 68
I don't think that product would work. As far as I can tell, it needs software to make a signal over the USB, meaning you would need a whole computer on your plane to process the signal from the camera. Even if this is not how it works, expect a lot of latency. HD video transmitting for FPV are still some time away.



My plans for now are to just bring a laptop using this setup: http://3dvision-blog.com/8901-adding-a- ... e-helpful/
Except with an easycap instead of a webcam. Should in theory work perfectly, if the only downside is having to bring a laptop I don't mind.


Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:28 am
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
i use this camera:

http://www.foxtechfpv.com/horyzonhd-ful ... p-877.html

why would i need a computer on the plane ? doesn't it have a suitable digital output already, where i could connect some wireless digital transmitter ?


Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:31 am
Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:47 pm
Posts: 1498
Why do you really want digital for flying inside? The extra resolution and clarity won't be of much use in the confines of a room. Why not just scale back your ambition and go for an analog system, like 99% of FPVers?


Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:50 am
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
i want to try other stuff besides flying indoors. for example i'd like to mount the camera right in front of the oculus rift, so that you see what you'd see without the whole construct.
do this for two people, then reverse what they see, so person-a sees what person-b would see, and vice versa, then have them play table tennis.

experiments like that...


Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:58 am
Two Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:01 pm
Posts: 68
malicor wrote:
i use this camera:

http://www.foxtechfpv.com/horyzonhd-ful ... p-877.html

why would i need a computer on the plane ? doesn't it have a suitable digital output already, where i could connect some wireless digital transmitter ?


No, I don't think so.


Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:47 am
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
is there something else that i could use instead ? i thought since the camera has a hdmi output, i could take a digital transmitter of some kind that takes hdmi as input and i'd be fine...

Grix wrote:
malicor wrote:
i use this camera:

http://www.foxtechfpv.com/horyzonhd-ful ... p-877.html

why would i need a computer on the plane ? doesn't it have a suitable digital output already, where i could connect some wireless digital transmitter ?


No, I don't think so.


Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:58 am
Petrif-Eyed
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malicor wrote:
is there something else that i could use instead ? i thought since the camera has a hdmi output, i could take a digital transmitter of some kind that takes hdmi as input and i'd be fine...
Grix wrote:
malicor wrote:
i use this camera:

http://www.foxtechfpv.com/horyzonhd-ful ... p-877.html

why would i need a computer on the plane ? doesn't it have a suitable digital output already, where i could connect some wireless digital transmitter ?
No, I don't think so.
HDMI (wireless media) transmitters (legal ones at least) have a range of less than 50 feet, and can only be operated indoors.

Although you can get an HD camera that can output h.264 compressed video, the required bandwidth requires a wired network for 1080p. With enough compression, and perhaps reduced image size and reduced framerate, you may be able to send the digital video over Wi-Fi. Beware that not all cameras allow such bandwidth reductions, and Wi-Fi also has limited range (but better than uncompressed wireless media devices).

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Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:07 am
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
50 feet and indoors would be fine for my purpose.
what i'm looking for indoors is a maximum quality of video stream

any suggestion what exact transmitter i should use ?

regards, malicor


Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:25 am
Petrif-Eyed
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malicor wrote:
50 feet and indoors would be fine for my purpose.
what i'm looking for indoors is a maximum quality of video stream

any suggestion what exact transmitter i should use ?

regards, malicor
Unfortunately, affordable wireless media devices have the weight at the transmitter end, but the receiver is portable (for a portable Rift):
viewtopic.php?f=140&t=16947&p=123086#p123086

For FPV, not so good. There are chipsets available, so if you cannot find a suitable portable HDMI transmitter, you might be able to design and build your own (or hire somebody to do it for you).

What is MUCH more commonly done for FPV is to let an HD camera (Hero, etc.) on the aircraft record HD video for later use, and use a low-definition analog camera to fly the aircraft with FPV.

EDIT: Above link corrected.

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Last edited by geekmaster on Mon May 27, 2013 7:10 am, edited 2 times in total.



Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:51 am
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm
Posts: 47
i do need it for livestreaming, so recording and playing later won't do the trick. i do need a livestream with maximum quality.
though indoors / 50feet range would be sufficient.


Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:05 am
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