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 Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter 
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Cross Eyed!

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:16 am
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Guspaz wrote:
Which brings to mind something that's been nagging at me, how does this sort of thing work with those of us who need glasses? For myopia, for example. Does the Oculus Rift have diopter correction?

I asked Palmer that in a disussion thread on The Verge article, which I think was one of the first: http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/30/3052191/doom-3-bfg-edition-announced-for-the-fall-we-try-it-with-john.

Anyways his answer was that it will have adjustable diopter correction and it will be "virtually limitless". From what I understood it may take a screw driver or something to adjust so it may not be something you want to do if you have a lot of people over. Then it'd be easier to use contact lenses if you have.


Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:35 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:41 am
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Hi everyone. Very exciting all this. I think i have read most interviews with JC and the threads here and I'm very keen on experiencing the Rift with DooM myself. I noticed that someone on slashdot mentioned that:

Quote:
According to an engineer who worked on the Sega VR project, [sega-16.com] there's a very serious problem with this sort of device:


There is a danger with HMDs: the IPD (inter-pupilar distance) must be properly set. IO Glasses gets around this by having a really big aperture. Sega had a thumbwheel to adjust the IPD. Here is the danger: if the IPD for the LCDs are wider than the user IPD, you force the user’s eyes to look outward. This is the opposite of cross-eyed. This can really stress the weak muscles around the eyes, and can cause permanent damage in less than 30 minutes. What I heard was the Sega lawyers brought up the liability issue on the eye damage. That is the reason I heard the project was canceled. Take it with whatever block of salt you want.


http://www.sega-16.com/2006/07/intervie ... -engineer/

Is there anyone who can confirm / deny this?

Anyhow, I'm willing to take my chance ;-)

Thanks for all your dedication an hard work.


Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:28 am
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Cross Eyed!

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I saw similar claims on some comment thread that Boing engineers who worked with design in VR environments suffered permanent eye damage in the early 90s. But I couldn't find anything online to support it.

Considering the number of head mounted displays available for casual use this is something we'd heard of by now if it was a problem. (Vuzix have been selling their devices for quite some time now.)


Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:07 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

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Is there an audio element to this that is yet to be announced? Given that the demo was done using a Logitech gaming headset (not famed for their fidelity), I suspect audio is less of a priority. Yet it is just as capable of immersion. If you don't believe me, just look up "binaural" on Soundcloud (eg. http://soundcloud.com/carrionfeast/rain ... nd-cs10-em / http://soundcloud.com/carrionfeast/bris ... e-roland-1).

The trouble with truly accurate spatial audio is that each person's ears respond to frequencies differently, and these responses inform our positional inferences. However, even an averaged approximation of these responses (called Head Related Impulse Response / http://recherche.ircam.fr/equipes/salle ... index.html) is much more impressive than simple, immutable stereo audio.

There's some more info about spatial audio at the following links: http://www.ausim3d.com/about/AuWeb_perception.html http://www.myears.net.au/pdfs/white.pdf (2nd is a brochure; take their claims with a pinch of salt).

Considering the impressive cues I've picked up in Quake Live, I imagine John Carmack already has a good grasp of spatial audio but I'd be happy to explain what I can. I did my fourth year project (ECE) on the subject so it's something I'm pretty passionate about!


Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:24 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

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Re: potential health issues, here's an article I remember reading on the ABC website a while ago:
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/32814.html


Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:37 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:08 pm
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hast wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
Which brings to mind something that's been nagging at me, how does this sort of thing work with those of us who need glasses? For myopia, for example. Does the Oculus Rift have diopter correction?

I asked Palmer that in a disussion thread on The Verge article, which I think was one of the first: http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/30/3052191/doom-3-bfg-edition-announced-for-the-fall-we-try-it-with-john.

Anyways his answer was that it will have adjustable diopter correction and it will be "virtually limitless". From what I understood it may take a screw driver or something to adjust so it may not be something you want to do if you have a lot of people over. Then it'd be easier to use contact lenses if you have.


That's good to hear; last time I tried taking off my glasses and using the dioptre adjustment on a camera viewfinder, I found that the dioptre adjustment on cameras was a joke, not nearly enough to correct typical myopia.


Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:32 am
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Cross Eyed!

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optimus wrote:
Re: potential health issues, here's an article I remember reading on the ABC website a while ago:
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/32814.html

Seems like that's from the same source, Mark Pesce. Reading the comments there (and the Wikipedia article for the term http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binocular_dysphoria) suggest that this is pretty much something only Mark Pesce is concerned about. Importantly there seem to be no peer revied evidence of the condition. (So there is not only no evidence that it can be permanantly damaging, there is no evidence that it actually happens at all.)

In fact, Googling around a bit more there is a post from 94 on Wired (again by Mark Pesce) that claims that the effect exists and references a study performed by a Californian think tank called SRI on behalf of Sega. But no results were ever published and Sega has not released any information. People at SRI which were contacted then did not want to comment further than to say that there were "unresolved problems" which could mean anything.

This does of course not mean that there can be problems with it. But if no effects have been found in the last 20 years it seems reasonable that they are at least not as obvious as what Mark Pesce claims.


Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:58 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

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hast wrote:
optimus wrote:
Re: potential health issues, here's an article I remember reading on the ABC website a while ago:
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/32814.html

Seems like that's from the same source, Mark Pesce. Reading the comments there (and the Wikipedia article for the term http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binocular_dysphoria) suggest that this is pretty much something only Mark Pesce is concerned about. Importantly there seem to be no peer revied evidence of the condition. (So there is not only no evidence that it can be permanantly damaging, there is no evidence that it actually happens at all.)

In fact, Googling around a bit more there is a post from 94 on Wired (again by Mark Pesce) that claims that the effect exists and references a study performed by a Californian think tank called SRI on behalf of Sega. But no results were ever published and Sega has not released any information. People at SRI which were contacted then did not want to comment further than to say that there were "unresolved problems" which could mean anything.

This does of course not mean that there can be problems with it. But if no effects have been found in the last 20 years it seems reasonable that they are at least not as obvious as what Mark Pesce claims.


Thanks for clearing that up! Lets get it on!


Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:05 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

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hast wrote:
optimus wrote:
Re: potential health issues, here's an article I remember reading on the ABC website a while ago:
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/32814.html

Seems like that's from the same source, Mark Pesce. Reading the comments there (and the Wikipedia article for the term http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binocular_dysphoria) suggest that this is pretty much something only Mark Pesce is concerned about. Importantly there seem to be no peer revied evidence of the condition. (So there is not only no evidence that it can be permanantly damaging, there is no evidence that it actually happens at all.)

In fact, Googling around a bit more there is a post from 94 on Wired (again by Mark Pesce) that claims that the effect exists and references a study performed by a Californian think tank called SRI on behalf of Sega. But no results were ever published and Sega has not released any information. People at SRI which were contacted then did not want to comment further than to say that there were "unresolved problems" which could mean anything.

This does of course not mean that there can be problems with it. But if no effects have been found in the last 20 years it seems reasonable that they are at least not as obvious as what Mark Pesce claims.



I'm finding similar information. An interesting article I found did have quotes from one of the SRI researchers (Tom Piantanida) who said that the hardware at the time wasn't fast enough and he experienced perception issues after wearing the headset for 8 hours(!?!), but made no mention of permanent damage.

http://www.osa-opn.org/home/articles/volume_22/issue_2/features/3-d_tv_and_movies_exploring_the_hangover_effect/#.T9IXOeJYvKw


Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:42 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

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Replace the gyros & accelerometers with a 3d camera system (like the kinect) mounted to the goggles. Use the change in view and distances to "static objects" to figure out the position and orientation of the head. gyros are only going to give you good data for orientation, a stereoscopic camera systems will let you bob your head up or down or side to side to see around objects and will add to the realness.

After all mounting a stereoscopic camera systems is going to be a next step for augmented reality use anyway so why not use it to track head position and kill 2 birds with one piece of hardware.

The question is can it be tracked with low enough latency and accurately enough, I suspect it can.

(When i say "static objects" I mean any point that appears to not be moving aka ignore objects going by a car window for example. yup Head tracking via stereoscopic view should work in moving vehicles unlike a gyro/accelerometers based system.)


Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:23 am
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Sharp Eyed Eagle!

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Palmer might have a problem with normal user expectation as they might compare this to commercial HMD or big screen tv. The support might overwhelm him to design a v2 in the future and also of noob question such as why my desktop 2D is split in both eye (due to the device only work in SBS).


Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:56 am
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Petrif-Eyed
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DDD support for Rift moved to new topic

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=15027


Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:06 pm
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Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)

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Oh man, this is what I get for going to SID and having not time for the forums. Long post ahead! :lol: To all the people signing up to let me know you support this project: Awesome, glad to have you on board! Responding to each and every one of you in this post would make it crazy long, but I really appreciate the support.

BillRoeske wrote:
I do hope that you do turn a small profit from the kits. It sounds like you've devoted a bit of personal time to this and have come up with something good, possibly great. You should totally be compensated for that. My impression is that this is going to be an assembly-required kit, so I'm sure there will be some post-release support work to be done, too. If nothing else, I'd view it as an investment in you continuing the good work with new displays, optics, connections, battery power, weight reduction, and so on. At the very least give us access to a tip jar or something. ;)


A lot of feedback on this, so I think this is what I will do: Set things up so that rather than allocating money for time on a laser cutter/CNC machine/other costs, I get enough money to buy my own. That way, I can work on my future units cheaply and more easily, so everyone benefits! If you want to leave money as a tip, Kickstarter allows you to send extra money on top of the reward. I will figure out some way for people to get recognized if they do that. :)

davidgutierrezpalma wrote:
I'm not a "hardware guy", but I won't have any problem with DIY kits as long as they can be assembled easily: I don't have any soldering skills nor the ability or knowledge to place the lenses manually in the precise angle/position required to get the best effect, so I hope this type of skills are not necessary.


The kits will not require any soldering, it should be well within reach of anyone capable of, say, taking a phone apart and putting it back together. :) You will have to be careful with the lenses, but getting them placed correctly is not too hard. You just need to make sure they are aligned with the faceplate properly.

Damo3D wrote:
1) What is the process for getting existing games to work with the unit - eg: Flight Simulator X, or Just Cause 2 for example. Is it simple or do games need an entirely new driver..etc

2) When released what would one use with it? Would DOOM be our only demo for a long while (with hopefully Rage to follow) or would we be able to look forward to a slate of working titles (this question is kinda like my first one)


Existing drivers like IZ3D and TriDef DDD drivers will allow things to work mostly correctly. IZ3D has a mode that allows for proper aspect ratio that only works for some games, and distortion can be taken care of with Nthusim. Of course, you still only have mouse emulation for head tracking, so not at all optimal. Cybereality is working on a driver with proper 3D and head tracking support, but like he has said, it will be awhile before he finishes. As far as future titles, there are some things in the works, but I would rather wait for those developers to announce things themselves than have me spilling the beans. ;)

mickman wrote:
RIFT is not so bad .. does it stand for anything ?


Not at the moment. Still trying to figure out if it is the "Rift" or the "RIFT". The choice to go all caps is mainly just for easy laser-cut readability on the unit. :D Thanks for the offers of help, I might need it when making assembly instructions. The Kickstarter should launch in one week.

Caillin wrote:
This panel looks like it could be a great contender for a future HMD device: http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/5/306674 ... ppi-ah-ips


Yeah, saw that panel at SID, it looks amazing. Would need two of them, though, not quite big enough for single panel use. :(

blitter wrote:
- Is the kit spec on the RIFT webpage an all-inclusive list? Will the kit include an option for the "wireless video link" and if so, are there more details on that?
- Is head tracking also included as an option in the kit or will a solution for that be required independently?


The $500 version will not include a wireless video link, but it will be available as an option, probably for about $200. Seems expensive, but you get a good wireless link (Less than 1ms latency) and a battery pack to power both the link and the HMD. The hardware inside is nearly identical to this Sensics unit that costs $2,000! http://sensics.com/products/low-latency ... ess-video/
Head tracking is also not included in the base price, since a lot of people will probably want to use it with trackers they already own. One of the Kickstarter bundles will include a Hillcrest labs tracker and Doom 3 BFG edition for a little more.

Guspaz wrote:
Does the Oculus Rift have diopter correction?


It has diopter correction, you can set the focus during assembly. :) It would be better to wear contacts, though, so the lenses can be properly collimated.

clancey"Lurking as well. I am subscribed so I can jump on the kickstarter. I am most interested in the expandability. How difficult would it be to swap in a higher resolution LCD? I would be willing to pay more for a higher resolution![/quote]

It is not a matter of difficulty or even cost, at this point. Better panels that are suitable for this design are simply not available at the moment. :( Within the next 12 to 18 months, though, there are panels coming out that are 4x the resolution! Upgrading to use those panels should be a piece of cake.


[quote="paratay wrote:
My first post here on MTBS and had to join in with this product, sounds Great! I just like to know PalmerTech, which LCD panel and Controller are you using, is it from Vitrolight?

The 5.6inch Panels I tested had Major Ghosting issues. ( http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-6inch-TFT-LCD-Module-1280-800-HV056WX1-100-/300598400802?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fd0f9722 )

They look great with images, however when there is any motion due to it's slow response, there is significant ghosting.


Yes, they are those panels. I am not buying them there though, for several reasons. I can get smaller and higher performance control boards from elsewhere, and they have sent me used panels before when I purchased as "new". On top of that, there are several different revisions of this panel, and I want to use the latest one. The response is still not perfect, but with the latest control boards and panel revision, I am getting extremely good results. I would love to be using a better panel, but there is nothing out there that can match this resolution at a reasonable price. The only things out there that would be suitable would push the price of the Rift into the tens of thousands of dollars.


hast wrote:
I saw similar claims on some comment thread that Boing engineers who worked with design in VR environments suffered permanent eye damage in the early 90s. But I couldn't find anything online to support it.

Considering the number of head mounted displays available for casual use this is something we'd heard of by now if it was a problem. (Vuzix have been selling their devices for quite some time now.)


The thing is, diverging your eyes is very, VERY uncomfortable to do. If you have any sense at all, you are able to tell that something is wrong, and adjust the IPD. Aside from that, modern HMDs are no less safe than a normal monitor; You should really take a break every once in a while to give your eyes a chance to relax and adjust, nothing new. That said, the potential for a lawsuit is one reason that I am making this available as a kit instead of a "real" product.


bcpk wrote:
Is there an audio element to this that is yet to be announced?


I love audio as well! There is a great VR game project called "Wild Skies" being done by some students at USC, they are going to do most of their binaural audio recording with a dummy head I made.

The thing is, I am a hardware guy, and this is a hardware project. Most of this audio work is done on the software side, and the best I could do would be to include some good headphones, something many people will already have. Perhaps selecting an specific headset that works well with the Rift would be a good idea, so we are all working with the same hardware?

BrianSmith42 wrote:
Replace the gyros & accelerometers with a 3d camera system (like the kinect) mounted to the goggles. Use the change in view and distances to "static objects" to figure out the position and orientation of the head. gyros are only going to give you good data for orientation, a stereoscopic camera systems will let you bob your head up or down or side to side to see around objects and will add to the realness.


This will happen at some point, but we cannot do it with low enough latency yet, and that will not change in the short term future. We already have lots of other good tracking options, so not really a priority.


pierreye wrote:
Palmer might have a problem with normal user expectation as they might compare this to commercial HMD or big screen tv. The support might overwhelm him to design a v2 in the future and also of noob question such as why my desktop 2D is split in both eye (due to the device only work in SBS).


Yes, that is the main reason I am doing this as a kit. I want it very clear on the Kickstarter that this is for the DIY/hacker/enthusiast crowd, not a mainstream product. If they miss all those clear warnings and then complain about having to put it together or something, I am not going to waste much time consoling them. :P If the HMZ-T1 is any indication, people will start modding and improving these as soon as they get them, and I hope to put those improvements to use in a second revision. :)


Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:52 pm
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Cross Eyed!
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Palmer,
Let's suppose that in 1 year, an LCD with the same size, but double the resolution is available. If we fund your project and buy your kit, will we be able to mod the new screen, or is there a controlling unit in the way of replacing the screens?

I admit that with what I read on your post above, I only got the part the about not being able to use a better panel at the moment. I was just wondering if the first revision will be made to allow this future LCD upgrade. Do you use a video scaler?

I don't mean to sound rude, I'm really interested in your project. It's just that I would feel better investing in your project if your kit was easily modifiable in terms of the screen and it's resolution. I wouldn't be able to shell out an additional $500 for a second revision to gain better resolution and more compatibility.



Edit: For an example I would like to use http://www.techradar.com/news/tablets/laptops/mobile-computing/computing-components/toshiba-reveals-6-1-inch-498ppi-display-1035567 That's a 2,560 x 1,600 panel, or 1280x1600 per eye.

Would we be able to fit a slightly larger LCD like Toshiba's by adjusting the optics?


Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:00 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

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I said "Toshiba 2.5k LCD panel demo" at least 20 times at E3. I hope they send me some :-)

Being a little larger would fill out the entire horizontal lens viewing area, making it a full 110 degrees horizontal and vertical FOV. Some vertical resolution would be wasted, but you would wind up with around 1200 x 1200 per eye. Do want.

John Carmack


Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:26 pm
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Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)

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@Yomer: The control board is flashed with firmware that is specifically made to drive this panel, so if you upgrade the screen, you will also need a matching control board.

That Toshiba screen is one I have mentioned before, and yes, it would be an easy upgrade. You would just need to make a few small physical modifications to the HMD so it will fit, and adjust the IPD in software to scale to the width of the new panel. If that panel is released, I would probably sell an at-cost kit that existing users could buy to upgrade their own HMD.


Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:27 pm
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Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!

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JohnCarmack wrote:
I said "Toshiba 2.5k LCD panel demo" at least 20 times at E3. I hope they send me some :-)

Being a little larger would fill out the entire horizontal lens viewing area, making it a full 110 degrees horizontal and vertical FOV. Some vertical resolution would be wasted, but you would wind up with around 1200 x 1200 per eye. Do want.

John Carmack



Any word on when the public could buy one ?


Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:30 pm
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Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)

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Not until next year, at least. They won't be selling them with controller boards, either, they will probably be in Android tablets or phones.


Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:34 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

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Before I make inquiries, has anyone looked at MicroOLED or Olightek? They make micro OLED displays.


Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:40 pm
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Microdisplays are not very suitable for high FOV. That is why even expensive $30,000+ units like the Nvis SX111 only have a horizontal field of view of 76 degrees, and weigh several times what the Rift does.


Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:46 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

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A standard set of headphones sounds good. Happily, unlike mini displays, there are plenty of cheap and great sounding headphones out there, eg the Monoprice 8323 for $25 or Panasonic RP-HTF600 for around $35.


Last edited by bcpk on Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:58 pm
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@John Carmack- So at what point are you going to personally fly the Toshiba headquarters and demo the rift for them and tell them you REALLY REALLY need some of their panels??? :mrgreen:

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Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:58 pm
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PalmerTech wrote:
Microdisplays are not very suitable for high FOV. That is why even expensive $30,000+ units like the Nvis SX111 only have a horizontal field of view of 76 degrees, and weigh several times what the Rift does.


I initially thought the larger resolution ( 2,560 by 2,048 pixels per display) would help with that. Probably moot as that resolution must be expensive.


Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:06 pm
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fireslayer26 wrote:
@John Carmack- So at what point are you going to personally fly the Toshiba headquarters and demo the rift for them and tell them you REALLY REALLY need some of their panels??? :mrgreen:


^^^
My thoughts too..

-If the mountain will not come to Mahomet, Mahomet must go to the mountain.-


Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:13 pm
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Did anybody post this already?

http://www.j-display.com/english/news/2012/20120604.html

A 2.3" display with a resolution of 1280x800. That would mean 3116x1947 give or take for a 5.6 inch.

BTW, http://www.j-display.com is the business that now manages Toshiba's LCD display technology. So any confirmation of a prototype or developer kit will have to go through them.


Edit: To avoid adding a new post: http://www.uswitch.com/mobiles/news/2012/05/lg_unveils_5_inch_retina_display_killer/ 1920x1080... can the kit also be adjusted to a smaller screen? This will allegedly be ready for integrator products in Q4 2012.


Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:35 pm
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Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)

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Hello, all! This is my first post here, after being lured in from the article posted on Hack-A-Day, and reading/viewing every article/review/interview I could find. Woohoo!

First off, THIS.. IS.. AWESOME! I always thought the only real issue with low adoption of 3D HMDs was the low resolution and high price. The last device I paid any attention to was some unit from the late 90s with (IIRC) 320x240 displays. My own 3D experience is limited to my sister's 3D TV, and my now torn to pieces Nintendo VirtualBoy - which I maintain is the coolest console ever made (pathetic, I know).

When John Carmack touts something as being cool, or the future of gaming, people tend to listen, and so do I. Having him support what looks to be some great hardware from Palmer with his expertise can most likely only be described as a match made in heaven (or the gates of hell opened on Phobos :lol: ). It's quite clear not that there's so much more to this tech than I originally thought, so I have much to learn (anyone have any web sites to recommend on related optics?).


@PalmerTech

First of all, great work! I have a feeling there will be a demand quite beyond 100 units, so hopefully another round won't be too far behind. Anyway, I do have a question regarding the optics: Are they completely custom? Is it possible to hack something together from off the shelf camera/telescope/microscope/binocular/etc parts? Would you be willing to give us a more in-depth look at the inner workings of your device? Inquisitive minds would like to know!

@JohnCarmack

It would seem that with native support for this hardware in the 3D engines from all the major players would be the biggest enabler for wide-spread adoption of this tech. If history of this industry proves anything, it's that people follow your lead. Just wondering, would it be better still to have integration optimized at the driver level, or does it not really make a difference?

Also, your explanation on the lag of motion tracking was extremely interesting and insightful. It sounds like you have made significant progress in this area, but it leaves me wondering, from your experience, in what ways is motion tracking currently lacking? It sounds like front-to-back, side-to-side translation does not currently exist. How much of a detriment is this to the experience? What sort of movement tracking do you believe is important for the immersion factor?



-Mark


Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:29 pm
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@ Yomer: that panel looks great, two of those could probably be used in a HMD and it would avoid all the issues with requiring warping, since the resolution is a standard resolution per eye...


Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:52 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

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PalmerTech wrote:
The $500 version will not include a wireless video link, but it will be available as an option, probably for about $200. Seems expensive, but you get a good wireless link (Less than 1ms latency) and a battery pack to power both the link and the HMD. The hardware inside is nearly identical to this Sensics unit that costs $2,000! http://sensics.com/products/low-latency ... ess-video/
Head tracking is also not included in the base price, since a lot of people will probably want to use it with trackers they already own. One of the Kickstarter bundles will include a Hillcrest labs tracker and Doom 3 BFG edition for a little more.


Awesome that the wireless link is essentially the same tech as the Sensics unit-- I had thought that would be my only practical option and winced a little at the price point, so thanks for finding an affordable solution! Looks like the Hillcrest bundle is the one for me :)

PalmerTech wrote:
Perhaps selecting an specific headset that works well with the Rift would be a good idea, so we are all working with the same hardware?


I'll throw in my two cents here: I'm hoping to build a totally wireless version of this, and my personal choice of headphones is the Sennheiser PX-360 BT. Very comfortable, lightweight, battery life gets me through an entire day at work, and the sound quality is excellent to my ears even in spite of it being Bluetooth audio (YMMV, http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-PX-360 ... B003V9RWGW)


Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:20 pm
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Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)

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Here is a thread I made discussing funding sources, if people could give input, that would be great: viewtopic.php?f=120&t=15030

yomer wrote:
A 2.3" display with a resolution of 1280x800. That would mean 3116x1947 give or take for a 5.6 inch.

Edit: To avoid adding a new post: http://www.uswitch.com/mobiles/news/2012/05/lg_unveils_5_inch_retina_display_killer/ 1920x1080... can the kit also be adjusted to a smaller screen? This will allegedly be ready for integrator products in Q4 2012.


Two of those 2.3" displays could make for a very nice HMD. They probably won't be available for some time, though, if at all.

As for the LG panels, I saw those at SID, they were amazing. You would need two of them, though, since the screen is a bit small. They will have them available as engineering samples this year, but the people at LG I talked to said that products using the screen will not be shipping till Q2 2013. Our little market is not big enough to do anything but wait for cell phones to push the commercialization, so it would be at least a full year till we could even think about using them.

MSat wrote:
@PalmerTech

First of all, great work! I have a feeling there will be a demand quite beyond 100 units, so hopefully another round won't be too far behind. Anyway, I do have a question regarding the optics: Are they completely custom? Is it possible to hack something together from off the shelf camera/telescope/microscope/binocular/etc parts? Would you be willing to give us a more in-depth look at the inner workings of your device? Inquisitive minds would like to know!


The optics were originally more complicated, I eventually had to sacrifice some FOV in order to keep the current unit as light as it is. This also had the advantage of making the optics a lot easier to assemble, phew! :) They are actually pretty simple, and I will be posting all the information when the project launches. Since it is a kit, you will get to see all the internals for yourself anyway!

blitter wrote:
Awesome that the wireless link is essentially the same tech as the Sensics unit-- I had thought that would be my only practical option and winced a little at the price point, so thanks for finding an affordable solution! Looks like the Hillcrest bundle is the one for me :)

PalmerTech wrote:
Perhaps selecting an specific headset that works well with the Rift would be a good idea, so we are all working with the same hardware?


I'll throw in my two cents here: I'm hoping to build a totally wireless version of this, and my personal choice of headphones is the Sennheiser PX-360 BT. Very comfortable, lightweight, battery life gets me through an entire day at work, and the sound quality is excellent to my ears even in spite of it being Bluetooth audio (YMMV, http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-PX-360 ... B003V9RWGW)


One problem that occurs to me is that the Hillcrest tracker is not wireless, at least, not the one being bundled with the Rift. That still leaves you with a USB cable, hmm... There are lots of other trackers that work wirelessly though, so unless you specifically want to play Doom 3 BFG, it might be better to use something like a Wiimote or PS Move anyways.


Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:19 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

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WiredEarp wrote:
@ Yomer: that panel looks great, two of those could probably be used in a HMD and it would avoid all the issues with requiring warping, since the resolution is a standard resolution per eye...

The warping is caused by the optics, not by the odd resolution / aspect ratio.
However, I would also like to use these panels (if possible) at some point in the future...


Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:39 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

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Quote:
@ palmerTech: Yes, they are those panels. I am not buying them there though, for several reasons. I can get smaller and higher performance control boards from elsewhere, and they have sent me used panels before when I purchased as "new". On top of that, there are several different revisions of this panel, and I want to use the latest one. The response is still not perfect, but with the latest control boards and panel revision, I am getting extremely good results. I would love to be using a better panel, but there is nothing out there that can match this resolution at a reasonable price. The only things out there that would be suitable would push the price of the Rift into the tens of thousands of dollars.


Thanks for the info PalmerTech , I would greatly appreciate if you can let me know where you sourced the Controller board and Newer version of the LCD as I couldn't find any other place to get them and Vitrolight is a little iffy to say the least even though the panels I got of him were in good order. The only problem was the controller board and not being able to extend the LVDS cable!! it is so small there is no way to extend it. So would greatly appreciate more info on where I can get the new panels with a better controller board as I am doing a few projects with robotics, thanks again!


Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:58 am
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Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
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PalmerTech wrote:
One problem that occurs to me is that the Hillcrest tracker is not wireless, at least, not the one being bundled with the Rift. That still leaves you with a USB cable, hmm... There are lots of other trackers that work wirelessly though, so unless you specifically want to play Doom 3 BFG, it might be better to use something like a Wiimote or PS Move anyways.

Interesting, I have two wireless trackers from hillcrest, they definitely produce them.
I think with Carmack's attention to the tracking lags - wired is probably better.

_________________
Oculus Rift, Vuzix Wrap 920 AR!, Vuzix VR920, Liquid Image MRG 2.2, Razer Hydra, P5 Glove, Microsoft Kinect, TrackIR5, 2 x Hillcrest Labs Freespace tracker, Fujifilm finepix real 3d w3, GeForce 9800GT 1Gb, GeForce GT 430 1Gb, DELL XPS 17 l702x with GeForce 555 GT 3Gb, and good-old VFX1 setup


Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:09 am
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It's a shame that the Tested.com guys didn't appear to get a look at John's prototype at E3, as I suspect they would have been very interested. Will Smith (the tech blogger, not the actor) is making his own third-person HMD/pod camera backpack rig which I suspect would gel nicely with the massively increased FOV of the Rift.

http://www.tested.com/search/?term=third+person


Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:10 am
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Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)

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Split the discussions started by the VReality shill into another thread here: viewtopic.php?f=120&t=15035

In related news, I am in the midst of filing all the business paperwork. Incorporating in California is expensive, yikes, but better than trying to dodge the law!


Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:26 pm
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Cross Eyed!

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I don't know if this has been posted yet or not, as it might be a really noob question, but I'm still fairly new to this.

Once I get a Kickstarter kit, with headtracker and a copy of Doom 3, is there anything else that I would need computer wise to be able to use this?

The reason I ask is that my computer is a few years old, despite being top of the line when I got it. I want to make sure that my computer will be able to handle this and I won't need to spend another few hundred dollars on upgrading it.


Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:29 pm
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Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
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Good call splitting the thread, hope no one minds if I change the subject... :idea:

hast wrote:
JohnCarmack: I've seen you mention in several videos that you haven't gotten translation tracking to work properly with the unit. One thing I wanted to try with it was to use a Playstation Move or similar device to optically track the 3d location of the unit and try to use that in game. Have you already tried that and found out that it doesn't work for some reason?

MSat wrote:
@JohnCarmack - It sounds like you have made significant progress in this area, but it leaves me wondering, from your experience, in what ways is motion tracking currently lacking? It sounds like front-to-back, side-to-side translation does not currently exist. How much of a detriment is this to the experience? What sort of movement tracking do you believe is important for the immersion factor?


I’m really glad you guys raised this, John has touched on it several times in interviews and I think that being that able to demonstrate parallax simulation effects would give a massive boost to the whole project; in fact it could be your "killer-app". I don’t underestimate the importance of the FOV improvements, that’s a massive achievement in itself, but combine that with the potential of the tracking implementation and I’m really starting to get excited, so forgive me if I go on a bit. Firstly I have to admit I’m a complete HMD noob, I tried one in a Uni lab about 15 years ago but the “floating TV” effect and tiny FOV meant I never really caught the bug. I’ve played around with some TrackIR type kit, but like many I was happy with my projector & shutter specs, and have been patiently waiting for those “holo-deck contact lenses” to arrive ever since… :D

Whilst the current gen console’s refresh cycle may arguably have robbed us of years of graphics innovation, (those expecting another UE3 / IDTech4 quantum-leap may be disappointed), they have gifted use one thing- mass market adoption of tracking sensors, and that could be SO much more important in the long run. Many have said that we are nearing a tipping-point, the convergence of technologies that will deliver a real game-changer, but we’re not there yet, something is still missing, it reminds me of that quote from the matrix:

Morpheus wrote:
You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind…

There IS something fundamentally wrong with “3D”, everyone here knows it but many of the wider public still don’t understand why. Move laterally whilst viewing a stereoscopic image, something very strange happens, your brain is not getting any of the extra information it expects, from “behind objects”, it tries to compensate, it fails, and the illusion is broken instantly. I think people coming to HMDs for the first time really need to understand that head-tracking is NOT just another control system; the feedback it provides for optical effects, like parallax simulation, are a fundamental part of emersion in the 3D space. But they’ll have to see it to believe it.

I’m sure many of you played with Jonny Lee’s Wiimote VR demo a few years back, I have to admit I spent many hours pacing around in front of my projector screen wearing two old TV remotes taped to a baseball cap! :lol: I never quite got it working properly with stereoscopic 3D, I played with TriDef but the geometry was always off somehow? When the Kinect arrived there was a stream of similar projects, but still no sign of the killer-app we were hoping for. Autostereoscopic / holographic displays, and plenoptic / light-field imaging systems are all going to feed development in this area, sadly they are still a long way off, but surely WE can do something with this now! There’s no doubt retro-hacking parallax simulation it into current games is an immense challenge, if John is struggling with it, what hope us mortals? :) But if we could get a few basic demos together at launch to showcase these parallax effects it could have a huge impact on public awareness, when people actually see it working it will blow there mind...

You can probably tell that I’m way out of my depth here, so my terminology is probably all wrong, but if we can demo the strafe “peek around” type effects (dynamic occlusion?) or maybe just something done with lighting of static objects, have reflections distort dynamically or specula highlights move along edge surfaces realistically as the viewer moves their head position (whilst standing still, not just as their body moves through the 3D scene). I hope I’m making sense, hopefully those with a better grasp of basic physics and more knowledge of rendering process can articulate this better. I’m sure most of you have seen all this before but for the uninitiated here are some great videos of parallax simulation in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BduSDvUU6MY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SDGG9HhbgQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dnMsmajogA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tuizfOcdLQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... a5NQK563OI

Also, some basic DOF simulation in Quake III and other really cool stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdW1v9TPNYw
http://www.3dfocus.co.uk/glasses-free-3 ... 3d-tv/8626
http://www.3dfocus.co.uk/3d-news-2/3d-t ... ature/6695

[/END RANT]

You guys keep up the good work, I'll keep spreading the word!

8-)


PS - On a separate subject, how does the current system cope with SBS video?

Maybe we can use a post-processing shader for MPC to reverse the distortions etc?


Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:33 pm
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@Nick3DvB: The technologies for tracking accurate head translation are more problematic than the ones for orientation. Gyroscopic orientation sensors operate within a local reference frame which makes them more generalized for a wide array of applications and immune to scaling problems. They are a near perfect solution for orientation tracking.

Local inertial sensors on the other hand have enormous error ranges when used to estimate translations - on the order of meters per second error!!! So to track translation you have to use an external reference. The Hydra uses magnetic fields and does a pretty good job, but most systems are based on optical technology - thus the Johnny Lee tracker, TrackIR, etc.. You can get really great results with these systems but they suffer from scaling problems - the sensor and reference points have to be within range, and in the case of optical there is a problem of occlusion. Not that these problems can't be solved, but it requires more complex setup and calibration (multiple cameras, light sources, etc) than the simple gyroscope used for orientation. So you don't see setups that include head translation as often because they don't fit in a neat little package, instead requiring a whole specially designed and calibrated play area.


Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:33 pm
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Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)

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I think a combination of the various tracking methodologies could be used to provide both quick response times and dynamic calibrations. We know that imaging systems like those used in the kinect or even PS Move are not really the quickest systems - if not for the scan rate of the imaging devices, than the computational power they require, but they do offer quite a bit of flexibility. On the other hand, the imaging devices such as those found in the wii controller, or even optical mice provide the exact opposite. Combined, they could potentially provide a responsive and efficient positioning system without requiring an overly complex gaming space setup and calibration. Sure, it's not as simple as strapping a couple gyro/G sensors to your head, but a well developed system wouldn't require a professional to come to your house to install.


Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:22 am
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I'm currently trying to make a headtracking system that uses the PS3Eye. I think it's a good piece of hardware to use because you can buy them for £11 delivered from eBay; much cheaper than most other pieces of kit. They can output 320x240 at 187FPS using the free driver from Code Laboratories, it supports up to 2 cameras (there's a paid version that supports more).

320x240 seems like a small resolution but bear in mind the Wiimote camera only has an actual resolution of 128x96, but by averaging several pixels' intensities it gets an effective resolution of 1024x768.

Anyway my basic idea is to put a camera on the head, looking up at the ceiling which will have a sort of poster with a known set of coloured dots on it. You can use the 2D position of the dots on the screen, and their known position in 3D space to work out the position and orientation of the camera (this is called the PnP problem, its not hard and there are loads of very fast (a few microseconds) algos out there to solve it). You only need 4 points to get the position and orientation. The hard and potentially slow bit is identifying the dots in the camera image.

The best thing about this system is that it can scale arbitarily; you can cover a whole ceiling in the dots, combined with some way of getting a global positon (say, QR codes every so often), and then you could walk around freely with a backtop system. What's more, several users could use it simultaneously with no extra work.

----------

http://i.imgur.com/gqU9f.jpg

Still very early stages at the moment, but I've got it working out 4 dots' screen positions. As in, the coloured circles on the screen are drawn using actual (x, y) double coordinates.


Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:07 am
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Two Eyed Hopeful

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I don't know the pricing of this sensors:
http://www.lp-research.com/introducing-lptracker/

But it looks like a perfect fit :) for a HMD.

I read on http://oculusvr.com/?page_id=2 that Palmer is already talking with them so who knows what the future will bring.


Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:32 am
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