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 Fresnel lens stack for "supernatural" FoV 
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One Eyed Hopeful
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could this potentially ruin our eyes? could the rift alter our vision in some way or another? staring inside the rift frequently.. is it a bad idea?

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Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:39 am
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omeDev wrote:
could this potentially ruin our eyes? could the rift alter our vision in some way or another? staring inside the rift frequently.. is it a bad idea?
There are other potential risks that may be more important than potential eye damage or other potentially harmful vision alterations. Mind and body alterations are more likely. But increased exposure to new ideas and rich rewarding content, coupled with increased exercise from head and body tracking, would all be good. Bad content exposure is more of a concern.

There is a risk of PTSD for repeated extended sessions of extremely anxious immersive content, especially with aversive haptic feedback (like annoying electric shocks). Too much exposure to violence may also desensitize us, or alter our perception of reality (especially when accompanied by sleep deprivation). Some content may be subliminally suggestive influencing what we purchase of who we vote for. But regarding potential physical alterations, optical misalignment or incorrect pre-warp may cause eyestrain. Normal usage should be no worse than watching 3D TV, unless turning your head quickly while wearing the extra mass on your head causes you neck strain, which is more of a physical fitness problem than anything.

Some people are also concerned about uncoupling focus and stereoscopic convergence, but I have been viewing 3D content for extended periods for many decades, including free-viewing cross-eye (and later wide-eye) stereoscopic images, and I think practice just makes it easier, so that is a GOOD thing IMHO.

I am not a medical professional, so you must do your own research and make your own risk assessment when deciding how much time to spend in VR, and what equipment to use, and what content to consume (and to create).

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Last edited by geekmaster on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:01 am
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I was reading VR related materials but I felt lazy and uhh... lol for better or worse I'm actually hoping for the rift to be "that" immersive.

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Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:19 am
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omeDev wrote:
I was reading VR related materials but I felt lazy and uhh... lol for better or worse I'm actually hoping for the rift to be "that" immersive.
There is another risk I did not mention. If you make a habit of "losing your lunch" while wearing the Rift, you could starve to death...
:woot

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Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:23 am
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I took out a Rift lens cup, and mounted a fresnel lens stack in its place. Part of the larger FoV it gave me was obstructed by the eye holes that the eyecups mount against. I would have to cut those holes larger (and probably square) to get the full FoV that I experience when using these fresnel lens stacks with a 7-inch tablet PC with no obstructions.

So in this case, fresnel lenses give no benefit without cutting off bits of my Rift, and I am not ready to do that yet.

Fresnel lens stacks are still a great idea for use with an unobstructed panel, such as in a DIY Rift clone. They do require different pre-warp distortion though, as mentioned in previous posts.

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Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:47 pm
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while looking around for fresnel lens info on the web I came accross this one:

One Fresnel Lens maker at least seems to be at the LightFair 2013 exhibition at the Philadelphia, PA Convention Center, April 23-25, 2013.

http://www.fresneltech.com/ is the manufacturer. http://www.lightfair.com is the show.

maybe this is of interest to somebody in the Philly Area. I know I would go if I'd live close there :-)


cheers

remosito

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Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:38 am
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remosito wrote:
while looking around for fresnel lens info on the web I came accross this one:

One Fresnel Lens maker at least seems to be at the LightFair 2013 exhibition at the Philadelphia, PA Convention Center, April 23-25, 2013.

http://www.fresneltech.com/ is the manufacturer. http://www.lightfair.com is the show.

maybe this is of interest to somebody in the Philly Area. I know I would go if I'd live close there :-)


cheers

remosito
I got some polypropylene fresnel lenses from fresneltech.com that work GREAT for thermal imaging, and are MUCH cheaper and more durable and more light weight than other thermal infrared lense. You can see a nice "hot and cold" video on this page, demonstrating their super cheap fresnel thermal imaging lenses:
http://www.fresneltech.com/thermalimaging.html

They have a $100 minimum order, so I requested (and received) some free sample lenses. ;)

They put a lot of research and engineering into their high quality lens designs, and I would highly recommend their optical grade products as well.

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Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:36 am
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geekmaster wrote:
I got some polypropylene fresnel lenses from fresneltech.com that work GREAT for thermal imaging, and are MUCH cheaper and more durable and more light weight than other thermal infrared lense. You can see a nice "hot and cold" video on this page, demonstrating their super cheap fresnel thermal imaging lenses:
http://www.fresneltech.com/thermalimaging.html

They have a $100 minimum order, so I requested (and received) some free sample lenses. ;)

They put a lot of research and engineering into their high quality lens designs, and I would highly recommend their optical grade products as well.



Good to know that :-)
In a post on page 2 you wrote:
I would love to find a custom lens that provides both left and right offset and required magnification in a single lens. If you can find one, please let us know. I am interested in good quality fresnel lenses, and in affordable solid aspheric anamorphic lenses (for better image quality).

Did you by any chance contact them about such a single lens and how much it would cost? Maybe they could even make a wraparound version you drew on page 1?
This would have been my motivation to visit that lightfair...

Forgive me if having custom one lens solution sourcing has already been covered. Still only on page 2. Massive amount of info to read and digest!

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Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:27 pm
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Holy cuacamole,

this thread was the most exhilirating and intense tech read of my life. :woot

Thank you!

It as well beats George Martin and his Song of Ice and Fire books on most hc cliffhanger!

What happened with the pixelpushing and working out the pre-warp for your setup? How is the final experience? ;-)

would really love to know how the story ends and if there is a happy end

:hatsoff and :bow

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Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:50 pm
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Somehow I've managed to completely miss this thread for the last two months :x

I have some lenses on the way from 3dlens.com, but if I had known what you meant by "offset" lenses, I would have gotten some fresnel bookmark lenses as well!

Do you think these are wide enough to give a good "offset" effect: http://www.3dlens.com/shop/bookmark-mag ... l-lens.php ?

Also, are the two offsetted bits cut equidistant from the optical center of the lens, or is one lens in the stack more offset than the other lens?

Thanks for your research!


Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:24 pm
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zalo wrote:
Somehow I've managed to completely miss this thread for the last two months :x

I have some lenses on the way from 3dlens.com, but if I had known what you meant by "offset" lenses, I would have gotten some fresnel bookmark lenses as well!

Do you think these are wide enough to give a good "offset" effect: http://www.3dlens.com/shop/bookmark-mag ... l-lens.php ?

Also, are the two offsetted bits cut equidistant from the optical center of the lens, or is one lens in the stack more offset than the other lens?

Thanks for your research!
I do not know about that particular lens without trying it. I cut the lens portion into 3 equal-sized sections (not counting the non-fresnel borders). The outer two sections are offset, because their optical axis is through the (missing) center section. Cutting a lens does not change its optical axis (original center in this case). Looking through one side or the other pulls the image that direction, more as you get farther from the center. Stacking two of them stretches the inner and outer sides out much more into your peripheral view, BUT that stretched image has much less pixel density than the screen center. I plan to try fresnel stacks with my iPad3 displays.

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Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:42 pm
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@ Geekmaster

When I am not in the Oasis I follow this thread closely. ;) I have an iPad 3 and I am by profession an iOS developer who also has Unity3D experience. My Rift is on the way :D and I am developing a VR experience specifically for the Rift. :woot

This thread caught my eye and somehow in the process of developing for the Rift I have become obsessed with the DIY HMD VR scene and hacking the Rift.

I ordered an iPad display for experimentation to see if I can squeeze some wider FOV and higher quality pixel density on my own. I hope to be able to contribute to this thread as soon as my parts arrive. I see you are now starting to play with the iPad 3 display! Cool!

I already have 4 lenses using the "LEEP" method and now I will play with Fresnels. If you need any help just let me know. Love this thread.


Sun May 05, 2013 9:00 pm
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Interesting read...
I am thinking.. could I experiment with an LCD Viewfinder Magnifier such as the one on my Canon EOS camera.. ( a rubber LCD viewing hood )

Remove the rubber hood & attach a modified fresnel lens to each side of the glass might allow me to experiment with a siilar wide horizontal fov.. yes ?

Image

I have tried pulling the glass lens from the rubber hood & looking through it close to a 6" image & am really amazed how incredibly focused and large the image becomes.... I hold the lens approx. 2.5 " from either an iPad3 or iPhone5 screen.
So simply ordering a couple of plastic fresnel lenses and experimenting ... I might be able to come up with a similar setup as described by GeekMaster... yes ?

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Tue May 14, 2013 9:44 am
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Mystify wrote:
I like the hybrid lens concept. That seems like it has potential.
Especially now that the Crescent Bay (and perhaps CV1) have dispensed with solid lenses and are reported to be using hybrid lenses. Sadly, the USPTO is claimed to not trust web content posting dates, prefering to only use other patents as prior art. And the "patent reforms" changing "first to invent" to "first to file" gives patent trolls preferential treatment over inventors. What kind of "reform" is that?

Also, I heard about recent patent filings on curved fresnel lenses even though that is how the original fresnels were created in the early days (taking a solid planar lens and grinding concentric flat cylinders out of the flat backside, hollowing it out into a curved fresnel lens). Grinding prismatic rings into a flat lens was perfected later, with angle adjustments needed for relocating the curved surface down into the flat planar zone.

Interestingly, I have been playing with fresnel lenses these past several months that allow me to see pixels on my Galaxy Note 4 screen out of the corner of my eye every direction I can look, including where my nose and eyebrows and cheeks should be), and sharp everywhere too. They are curved so they touch skin all around my eye just like in the image I posted far above (next to my nose, under my eyebrow, and above my cheekbone). Though screendoor effect is a factor, I prefer the supernatural FoV (270-degrees or so) even at the expenses of SDE. Like Eric Howlett said, we just need to DEFOCUS a little bit to minimize SDE (the best focus for VR is not the sharpest focus). Of course, we may need to trim the lens edges to fit the facial profile of each user, and I used a depth camera to digitize my facial depth map for that lens trimming operation. I envision getting custom trimmed lenses to be similar to getting new eyeglasses at an optical shop, where your face is scanned for lens edge contour before trimming curved lenses to hug your face.

It seems that many HMDs are abandoning their prior solid lenses in preference of the ideas proposed in this thread. The sincerest form of flatter, eh? Though getting a little credit is preferred over filing patents, though lawyers and investors hate the liability potential of sharing credit. I just hope nobody tries to prevent ME from using my own private research and development.

I was asked by associates to keep my personal lens "IP" quiet, but I am not legally bound by such requests and I no longer keep such nonbeneficial company. I have additional research for simple DIY "lightfield" lenses, which work amazingly well regardless of eyeglass prescription, with no lenses needed between your eyes, the lightfield lenses (also touching skin all around), and the display surface at any distance. For testing, I laid back with a tablet screen face down balanced on my forehead and nose, and I could focus clearly on subpixels with my curved lightfield devices laying over my eyes. Amazing experience. And they let me see clearly up to infinity too, when looking out the window at distant trees.

I want to complete these things so I can release them, but there are many other things above them on my "To Do" list. I need a team of developers to help me with all my unfinished projects that others have told me are awesome. Now how do I do that?

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Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:13 pm
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geekmaster wrote:
want to complete these things so I can release them, but there are many other things above them on my "To Do" list. I need a team of developers to help me with all my unfinished projects that others have told me are awesome. Now how do I do that?


You very much know the answer, approach right Venture Capitalists show them potential at private showdown, hunt for talent in market or may be here. Take some interviews, assign the task to your chosen,mentor & supervise them... then monetize the results by setting a corporation and save some for further R&D.

There can be other way but harder one, that's you do all then ....Monetize the results or post them for free (here/some where) latter doesn't make sense unless you are Warren Buffett rich. Till we are in world, we all need funds. :)


Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:05 pm
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And BTW, my latest iteration uses single lenses that work much better than those stacks in this thread (which I used only for increased magnification from dollar store lenses). They key (as I mentioned) was and is lens offset. I have lenses that give me more than 180-degree FoV on my Galaxy Note 4 display. Live pixels as fas as I can see out of the corners of my eyes, even with then turned painfully sideways. The key is curved lenses exactly as I showed in a diagram earlier in this thread.

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Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:30 am
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This post has an image of my idea I finally protoyped:
viewtopic.php?f=138&t=16373#p99408

It showed a curved lens on one side (as if a ping-pong ball shaped lens were cut to fit snugly under the eyebrow, along the nose, and against the cheek).

Here is that image again:
Image

My prototype lens is segmented like a Buckyball (glued lens pieces), but I plan to make a smooth-curved lens (If I live long enough). Even the segmented lens demonstrates the awesome potential of what I have developed here (if Oculus doesn't patent it to require an expensive "prior art" battle, like they did with my PTZ Tweening ideas).

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Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:40 am
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I suspect that the final result of the supernatural fov is not really any different than the kind of image you get from a fish-eye lens. I also suspect that your brain will not interpret the extra FoV as coming from outside its normal range, but rather will try to process the objects outside of the normal range as being inside the normal range. In other words, your mind may get a distorted "map" of where things are.

However, other than the areas blocked by the nose, the extra area is in the peripheral vision area. Which is not really very detailed. It is more about detecting motion. So, the issue of the brain mis-mapping those objects may not be a problem.

Of course, all this is pure speculation, and sometimes the world does not comply with our imagination!

-Joe


Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:36 am
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cadcoke5 wrote:
I suspect that the final result of the supernatural fov is not really any different than the kind of image you get from a fish-eye lens. I also suspect that your brain will not interpret the extra FoV as coming from outside its normal range, but rather will try to process the objects outside of the normal range as being inside the normal range. In other words, your mind may get a distorted "map" of where things are.

However, other than the areas blocked by the nose, the extra area is in the peripheral vision area. Which is not really very detailed. It is more about detecting motion. So, the issue of the brain mis-mapping those objects may not be a problem.

Of course, all this is pure speculation, and sometimes the world does not comply with our imagination!

-Joe
Any mismapping can be compensated with a correct pre-warp -- just put the pixels where your brain expects to see them. My testeing shows that this works quite well in practice. But it will depend on face shape, so must be adjustable. You really can see live pixels where facial parts would normally obstruct, due to lensing between your eyes and facial obsctructions -- lens right to the skin all around.

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Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:52 am
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My comment about distortion was in thinking that some of the retina is receiving images from an area where it would not normally have originated. Is that what you are hoping to do?

I can imagine that there are areas that are sometimes exposed to light when you look to one side, and then those areas are blocked when you look at the other extreme. The nose would be the main area. However, I suspect the brain has learned to ignore the nose, and simply relies on the image from the other eye to detect what is going on in that direction.

I will mention something else I have read. (sorry I don't have a source). There was a study on the flexibility of the mind to deal with the images we receive. Volunteers wore prism glasses that turned the world upside down for a week or two, non-stop. They were able to successfully train their brain to deal with that, so that when they finally removed the glasses, they felt that the non-prism view was upside down. They adjusted back to normal vision quicker than they did to the prism glasses, but it still took some time.

So, even if it possible to train your brain to accept hyper vision, perhaps even 360 deg vision, I would be concerned that the ability to switch back to normal mode may be a problem. But, perhaps it is viable to train your self enough that you can switch between the two on a moment's notice. It wold be wise, however, to study this process very well before attempting to use a car. A failure to use the correct "vision mode" may be fatal to yourself or others.

By the way, there is actually a type of "hyper vision" used by people with tunnel vision caused by the loss of their peripheral vision. They can use special glasses to bring more of the peripheral area into their remaining area of vision. There were actually several variations of the idea. I just did a quick search and found one study that had some success, but it was certainly not a slam-dunk.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2867070/

-Joe


Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:07 pm
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cadcoke5 wrote:
My comment about distortion was in thinking that some of the retina is receiving images from an area where it would not normally have originated. Is that what you are hoping to do?
What I meant (and described earlier in this thread) is that I can see pixels from objects in my stereoscopic FoV that would normally be obstructed by my nose, eyebrows, and cheeks. The lens area between my nose and eye redirects pixels from the screen as a virtual image that appears to come through where my nose should be. And yet is all seems quite natural, but I have been wearing vision-distorting eyeglasses since a child so I have adapted to things being slightly relocated from where you would expect.
cadcoke5 wrote:
Volunteers wore prism glasses that turned the world upside down for a week or two, non-stop. They were able to successfully train their brain to deal with that, so that when they finally removed the glasses, they felt that the non-prism view was upside down. They adjusted back to normal vision quicker than they did to the prism glasses, but it still took some time.
That was a classic example I studied in University Psychology back in about 1974. The claim was that the "home adaptation" period is exactly 14 days, after which you wake up and you brain accepts the new world reference as "normal". Then another 14 day adaptation when switching back. The same phenomenon as when you move to a new home and it suddenly "feels" like home after 14 days.

However, in my experience with many sizes and shapes of eyeglasses over the years with varying distortion (where stepping down off a curb is dangerous because it looks "too far away" and you can trip trying to cross over it), after a number of years I no longer notice any distortion unless I LOOK for it, even when switching between very different lens shapes. And no dizzyness either (though that was a concern when I got different glasses when young).
cadcoke5 wrote:
So, even if it possible to train your brain to accept hyper vision, perhaps even 360 deg vision, I would be concerned that the ability to switch back to normal mode may be a problem. But, perhaps it is viable to train your self enough that you can switch between the two on a moment's notice. It wold be wise, however, to study this process very well before attempting to use a car. A failure to use the correct "vision mode" may be fatal to yourself or others.
I posted in another thread about how multiplying virtual degrees turned (as in redirected walking) took about 10 minutes to grossly-adapt to, and then another 10 minutes to adapt back to normal -- I think it was in an early Virtuix Omni research thread here. However, flight simulator training (decades ago) required a day to adjust for jet fighter pilots to retune their fine eye-hand coordination.
cadcoke5 wrote:
Volunteers wore prism glasses that turned the world upside down for a week or two, non-stop. They were able to successfully train their brain to deal with that, so that when they finally removed the glasses, they felt that the non-prism view was upside down. They adjusted back to normal vision quicker than they did to the prism glasses, but it still took some time.
That was a classic example I studied in University Psychology back in about 1974. The claim was that the "home adaptation" period is exactly 14 days, after which you wake up and you brain accepts the new world reference as "normal". Then another 14 day adaptation when switching back. The same phenomenon as when you move to a new home and it suddenly "feels" like home after 14 days.

However, in my experience with many sizes and shapes of eyeglasses over the years with varying distortion (where stepping down off a curb is dangerous because it looks "too far away" and you can trip trying to cross over it), after a number of years I no longer notice any distortion unless I LOOK for it, even when switching between very different lens shapes. And no dizzyness either (though that was a concern when I got different glasses when young).
cadcoke5 wrote:
So, even if it possible to train your brain to accept hyper vision, perhaps even 360 deg vision, I would be concerned that the ability to switch back to normal mode may be a problem. But, perhaps it is viable to train your self enough that you can switch between the two on a moment's notice. It wold be wise, however, to study this process very well before attempting to use a car. A failure to use the correct "vision mode" may be fatal to yourself or others.

By the way, there is actually a type of "hyper vision" used by people with tunnel vision caused by the loss of their peripheral vision. They can use special glasses to bring more of the peripheral area into their remaining area of vision. There were actually several variations of the idea. I just did a quick search and found one study that had some success, but it was certainly not a slam-dunk.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2867070/

-Joe
I read about those "tunnel vision" (or only one side visible due to TBI) prism glasses while researching "offset lenses" for this thread, several years ago. I might have even provided a link or two.

In my experience, even lens distortion (other than chromatic aberration) becomes accepted as "normal" after a couple of weeks of "many hours per day" use, just like switching eyeglasses. This can be seen when using my GMSphere program where it was reported "no dizziness" as felt in "corrected" software for the DK1. Even though pixels are not exactly where you may expect them, it still feels quite natural.

Another experiment I did (as did Adam Savage of Mythbusters fame) was to walk around while wearing a pair of fisheye lenses. It was awesome and NO DIZZYNESS at all. The key to avoid dizzyness is accurate head-tracking (such as while wearing those fisheye lenses), not FoV or distortion correction, IMHO. Though amplified head tracking (virtual world turns more than head) is fine as well (with the 10 minute adaptation period) -- it is latency that is the UX-killer.

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Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:17 am
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@Geekmaster

Any chance you commercialize your prototype make it solid product that any one can purchase? Something like Gear VR?

One more interesting thing i would like to share.. few days back i got lucky enough to try HTC VIVE for around 25 Minutes..
I have used Oculus RIFT DK2 and so far not lucky enough to try RIFT CV1. I must admit trying HTC VIVE was among some
super best experience of lifetime. :D (*it costed almost 1800 usd when it reach to one who purchased it (Shipping + Duty),
out of reach for me at this price)

I tried RAW DATA and THE LAB Atlas Repair Module both were super amazing in their own respect. RAW DATA did give me
leg ache for two days after i tried demo as that was shortest period i made so many duck fast stand lean again duck movements
i ever made. THE LAB was most precise demo of what HTC VIVE can offer in terms of presence, realism, sense of scale and most
absolute wonderful Light house Tracking... :mrgreen:

I was also amazed by quality of Optics they were Fresnel and aspheric both, strangely though i really did not notice groves artifact
i was expecting when i seen optics from distance,

This make me wonder how expensive this optics can be? Any guess?

Is there any way of canceling Fresnel grooves in software? Is HTC already employ some software trick to cancel grooves? What do
they ment when they said 'mura correction' is this Fresnel grove canceling ?


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Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:05 am
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Dilip wrote:
@Geekmaster

Any chance you commercialize your prototype make it solid product that any one can purchase? Something like Gear VR?
Busy dealing with health issues, but I certainly plan to survive this life challenge and resume many of my projects including this one. I want to finish my projects that will require dozens of lifetimes -- I need a team to get them all done... VR is just a narrow slice of my interests and studies, though an important one.

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Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:23 am
Posts: 689
Location: Ahmedabad//INDIA
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Always be positive ........Sure you will.
Most important thing in universe is WILLPOWER rest all get managed around it....


Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:12 am
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