It is currently Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:58 am



Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ] 
 1080p@60Hz page-flipping 3D gaming on Samsung HDTVs 
Author Message
Cross Eyed!

Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:34 pm
Posts: 108
Reply with quote
Quote:
It would be nice if you could take pictures for the left and right eye with your two types of glasses using this 3D test image from DDD


Ok, so here is what I got so far. Since 3D checkerboard is my favorite mode, I did most of the photo shoots in this format. The shoots where made with a digiral camera either directly from the screen ot through the left/rigt lense of my XPAND X103 universal 3D glasses.

Tridef ghosting test image 1080p checkerboard without glasses:
Image

Tridef ghosting test image through left lens of X103 glasses:
Image

Tridef ghosting test image through left lens of X103 glasses:
Image

Mafia2 is a good example for the advantage of the 1080p checkerboard mode. With the 260.xx drivers I can't enable AA, neither in-game nor via the nVidia control panel. This game looks really terrible in 720p frame packing and with 1020p@24Hz it looks great, but is not really playable for me.
Even 1080p page flipping with 30Hz per eye still gave me some discomfort when turning my (virtual) view.

Finally 1080p@60Hz checkerboard looks great and deliveres 60Hz per eye.


Mafia2 1080p checkerboard without glasses:
Image

Mafia2 1080p checkerboard through left lens of X103 glasses:
Image

I can't barely notice any ghosting while playing, despite the fact I use maximum separation of 7 cm (= my left/right eye distance) for distant objects.


Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:07 pm
Profile
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 11394
Reply with quote
Wow, that looks really good. Ghosting is practically not noticeable at all (especially in the Mafia shot). Much better than I would expect given the horror stories floating around regarding Samsung 3D TVs. I'm still on the fence on whether I would want one, but now they are at least on my radar.

_________________
check my blog - cybereality.com


Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:10 pm
Profile
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:06 pm
Posts: 2255
Location: Perpignan, France
Reply with quote
Many thanks for the ghosting test Nobsi, I didn't expect such a low ghosting on this model. It seems this plasma is in the same league or even better than the VT25 from Panasonic.

Maybe the X103 glasses are better than the Panny ones since the technology should be quite similar for the displays.

Did you really get the same results ghosting-wise with the Samsung glasses ? Which model btw ?


Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:48 pm
Profile WWW
Cross Eyed!

Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:34 pm
Posts: 108
Reply with quote
My Samsung is the European plasma model PS50C7790. I did get it for 1380,- €.

I initially had the intension to by a Panasonic plasma, but after some research I found that Panasonic does not support any none-mandatory 3D format.
The Samsung does support them all (including checkerboard, interlaced and page flipping) and is cheaper, so I gave it a go and I'm quite happy with this HDTV.
It also looks very good and is only about 3 cm deep.
I can not compare to a Panasonic Plasma, but I don't believe that the Panasonic has much less ghosting.

Regarding the glasses, the original Samsung one (it's the cheaper model without a frame on the lower lenses side) isn't as consistent as the X103 regarding ghosting. It's good in the middle, but nearer to the frames at the outer side more ghosting becomes visible.
The X103 is superior in this regard and also has really large lenses, a very big improvement about my previous eDimensional DLP glasses (based on the old ELSA Revelator design).


Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:49 am
Profile
Terrif-eying the Ladies!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:35 am
Posts: 894
Location: As far from Hold Display guys as possible!!! ^2
Reply with quote
I think static picture is not exactly a good test for the type of ghosting plasma produce, that is phosphorus afterglow.

I noticed ghosting on my DLP though, now that I use silverscreen. OFC the usual scenario, total darkness plus bright lamp. Dual projection better be at this level or I'll be angry. :))

_________________
-Biased for 0 Gen HMD's to hell and back must be one hundred percent hell bent bias!


Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:39 am
Profile
Two Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:47 pm
Posts: 98
Reply with quote
tritosine wrote:
I think static picture is not exactly a good test for the type of ghosting plasma produce, that is phosphorus afterglow.

Shutter stereo is never static, it's alternating 2 frames at 120 Hz.


Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:26 pm
Profile
Cross Eyed!
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 3:50 pm
Posts: 103
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Reply with quote
Hi, Nobsi, congrats for your new acquisition.
It's good to see manufacturers adding support for more formats, and I hope that we'll soon see 3DTVs with DisplayPort input.

Anyway, my concern is with the title of the topic - "1080p@60Hz 3D gaming.." is misleading - "60Hz 3D" would mean 60fps per eye, at least that's how I understand it (and got excited when I saw it :)). In your case it should be "1080p@30Hz 3D gaming.." if you were talking about the page flipping mode. If you referred to the 1080p checkerboard mode.. it wouldn't be correct as well, because it only delivers half of the resolution (therefore, "1080p" is not entirely true). Just my thoughts here, no offence.
I wish you thousands of hours of good S3D gaming on this baby :).


Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:27 pm
Profile
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 11394
Reply with quote
Yes, Zerofool is right. The title is misleading, and I thought the same thing when I first saw it. In regards to HDMI 1.4 the nomenclature designates a few different options such as 720P@60Hz, 1080P@24Hz, etc. In those cases, the Hz is referring to the refresh rate of the source material (ie game or movie) with a single frame containing both left and right eye views, irrespective of the refresh rate of the screen or of the shutter glasses. In both those cases the display and glasses still refresh at 120Hz. Also, there is an optional mode in HDMI 1.4 called 1080P@60Hz, which refers to a frame-packed input of 1080Px2 refreshing at 60Hz. This is then processed by the TV and displayed as if it were a 1080P@120Hz page-flipped signal. Again, the display refresh rate and shutter glasses rate remain 120Hz. So claiming that "1080p@60hz is possible on Samsung" is extremely misleading, even though it is arguably true (but only in the language of legacy 3D systems, not the modern standard). So you may wish to edit the title and call it something else, like "1080p@60Hz page-flipping" to differentiate it from HDMI 1.4.

_________________
check my blog - cybereality.com


Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:29 pm
Profile
Cross Eyed!

Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:34 pm
Posts: 108
Reply with quote
Quote:
So claiming that "1080p@60hz is possible on Samsung" is extremely misleading, even though it is arguably true (but only in the language of legacy 3D systems, not the modern standard). So you may wish to edit the title and call it something else, like "1080p@60Hz page-flipping" to differentiate it from HDMI 1.4.


Sorry for this confusion, I' m obviously just to old fashioned regarding 3D. I edited the thread title to your suggestion.
I just felt the need to publish my findings since anywhere is told that Panasonic HDTVs are superior for 3D, but Samsung HDTVs have also their advantages (and are a lot cheaper).

But still 30Hz per eye is a lot better than 24Hz, though it showed up that at least for me 30Hz is still not playable. I feel a discomfort at that frame rate that I don't get after hours at 60Hz per eye.
(Note that this has noting to do with flicker since the HDTV shows every frame twice to output at 120Hz frame rate.)


Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:42 pm
Profile
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 11394
Reply with quote
Nobsi wrote:
But still 30Hz per eye is a lot better than 24Hz, though it showed up that at least for me 30Hz is still not playable. I feel a discomfort at that frame rate that I don't get after hours at 60Hz per eye.
(Note that this has noting to do with flicker since the HDTV shows every frame twice to output at 120Hz frame rate.)

So are you saying that the glasses still shutter at 120Hz?

_________________
check my blog - cybereality.com


Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:34 pm
Profile
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:05 pm
Posts: 712
Reply with quote
Nobsi, man you make me have to buy updated computer equipment. I see your discovery. And it is quite interesting. I'm thinking your getting 60 different frames per second. I don't have updated computer equipment at the moment. I will be looking at this on my panasonic. It should yield fantastic results- kinda like your saying :D

cheers everyone

_________________
AMD HD3D
i7
DDD
PS3
Panasonic Plasma VT25 50" (Full HD 3D)
Polk Audio- Surround 7.1
Serving up my own 3D since 1996.
(34) Patents


Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:47 am
Profile
Cross Eyed!

Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:34 pm
Posts: 108
Reply with quote
Quote:
So are you saying that the glasses still shutter at 120Hz?

Yes, 60 Hz output would produce aweful flicker in 3D.
The TV does the same for 24Hz blu-ray input, otherwise it would be unwatchable.
I'm not sure though how often the frames are repeated, but my guess is 2 times:

24Hz * 2 (splitting left/right) = 48 frames * 2 (multiflashing) = 96 frames
That would be the minimum to get no flicker with shutter glasses!

Quote:
Nobsi, man you make me have to buy updated computer equipment

Oh, sorry for that :)


Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:17 pm
Profile
Two Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:47 pm
Posts: 98
Reply with quote
I think the 3d TV's use something like 3:2 pulldown with 24p material to keep the shutter rate at 120Hz:
L1,R1,L1,R1,L1,R2,L2,R2,L2,R2...


Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:18 am
Profile
Cross Eyed!
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 3:50 pm
Posts: 103
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Reply with quote
Hi again, I forgot to ask one thing regarding this "1920x1080 @ 60Hz in Page-Flipping mode". What inputs does it work with? Does it work with the VGA PC input? Even if not in full 1080p, like let's say 1366x768 or 720p? If it does, it would mean that there's a slight chance for it to work with the legacy nvidia driver :). That would be an interesting experiment - Doom 3 in 3D on a Plasma 3DTV ;).


Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:09 pm
Profile
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:05 pm
Posts: 712
Reply with quote
Zerofool, thats an interesting observation. I was wondering the same thing. synching I think maybe the problem. It would be very interesting to know though.

cheers everyone

_________________
AMD HD3D
i7
DDD
PS3
Panasonic Plasma VT25 50" (Full HD 3D)
Polk Audio- Surround 7.1
Serving up my own 3D since 1996.
(34) Patents


Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:01 am
Profile
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:48 am
Posts: 1
Reply with quote
Hi Nobsi,
can you show me the schematic for your "simple USB powered circuit" please.


Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:27 am
Profile
One Eyed Hopeful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:01 pm
Posts: 26
Reply with quote
It would be nice to know wich television sets support this frame-sequential or page-flipping mode.

Samsung series 7 tv's are very expensive : \ Any other (cheaper) active 3d tv's supporting it would be great :|


Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:22 pm
Profile
One Eyed Hopeful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:01 pm
Posts: 26
Reply with quote
How about the new UHD series?
The 1080p F7000 series suports page flipping and checkerboard via hdmi 1080p. I wonder if the new 4k HU7500 series supports CB and page flipping in 4k as well?


Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:04 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 32 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by STSoftware.