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 Can the 3D Vision2 kit work with "not 3D" 120Hz TV ? 
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One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:20 am
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Hi,
My LG OLED 55C9 TV is able to display up to 4K 120Hz, but it's not a 3D TV.
After setting the display to 1080p/120Hz, I can execute the 3D assistant and select "generic CRT monitor".
The 3D test almost works, but with a lot of ghosting.

Correct me if I'm wrong but here is what I understood after my first readings :
if I select "generic TVHD DLP 3D" in the 3D assistant, it enables a frame packing 3D (The 2 images are sent together at 60Hz in a sort of 3840x1080 resolution, and the 3D TV knows it has to display half the image half the time). But my TV is not 3D and it just doesn't work.

On the opposite, if I select "generic CRT monitor" in the 3D assistant, it enables a frame sequential 3D, at 120Hz, with 0 delay between the image and the corresponding signal on the emitter. At 120Hz, the TV shows 1 image every 8.3ms.
According to reviews, input lag on my TV is around 13ms.

So I guess my TV and my glasses are not synchronized, and that maybe 40% of the aperture time of each glass I see the wrong image on my screen.

Is there a way to sync my glasses and my TV by delaying the emitter of 13ms ?


Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:43 am
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Two Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:16 pm
Posts: 74
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If you get this to work, you will be the first person. The TV is unlikely to recognize a frame-packed signal, since LG no longer supports 3D TV (and 3D formats), so sequential is probably better. Note that LG made passive, not active (shuttered), 3D TVs when they were being manufactured. Display lag should not impact operation (only an issue for controller/keyboard control, with larger lags like 60ms), since it is just a pipeline delay.

Syncing may be an issue, since TVs do not share sync signals, nor sync to external signals. I encountered this fatal issue when I unsuccessfully tried to create a Surround setup using 3 portrait-mounted active 3D TVs years ago.

If you have something like an Index VR headset, so might consider using HelixVision (search Steam) instead...


Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:58 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:09 pm
Posts: 9
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I tried something similar on a C7, plus I've been trying to get 3d vision working on my DLP projector and sadly it's a fail all around so far.

Check out and read the subject I started on Blurbusters, it might fill in some gaps:

https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopi ... 34b2e82d9b

There was a utility on the old forums to manually alter the glasses timing, but this didn't help with my DLP issues, due I suspect to Display blank/Vsync/Timing issues.
Actually I don't know if that utility was ever posted anywhere else, or if the author is around any more... It's something we should preserve.

Good luck!

*edit* Added the custom timing utility. This is simply lifted and shifted from the thread on the old forum, unfortunately I can't remember the authors name so credit to him but use at own risk.
If you can find the old thread it might be useful to post a link or put the relevant info here.


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Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:05 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:20 am
Posts: 7
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Thank you for this link. What a high quality explanation !
To sumarize, I will have ghosting because of the shutter glasses "response time". While the glasses switch, both eyes can more or less see the screen at the same time.
The solution is either "Black frame insertion" or "Strobe backlight" on the screen to make the screen dark while the glasses switch. That's the lightboost of my asus vg278H.
Unfortunately on an OLED TVs, there is no "Strobe backlight", and my TV does not allow black frame insertion at 120Hz input.
So I will have some ghosting no matter what.

My first 3D kit was 3D Vision 2, which introduced lightboost. But before version 2, there was 3D Vision version 1, with no lightboost, with more ghosting than version 2, but I believe - I hope - it worked well enough.
So I still wonder if the input lag of the tv, which is 1.6 frame long, is not my main problem. It would explain why I see R and L frames inverted, and why I feel like the screen refreshes during the time of full aperture of my glasses.


Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:36 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:20 am
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According to this post, the utility is useless if "CRT monitor" is selected.

---------------------------------
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/fo ... mentPage=3
rajkosto
Generic cases like 3DTV Play (HDMI Frame packed, Checkerboard, Line interleave), DLP-link, "Generic CRT" do not even use the timings defined in these tables.
---------------------------------

So I would have to use the edid override or/and CRU to make the 3DVision driver see my TV as a compatible 3D device, and then use NvTimingsEd to correct the timings.

OK but is there a "compatible device" which accepts frame sequential 3D ? (All the .inf I have found are for 3D compatible devices which handle 3D Frame packing)


Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:18 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:49 pm
Posts: 28
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Projectors take a Frame Sequential input.

Bit Cualdron made adjustable sync 3D emitters and glasess, they licensed them to Monster Vision and I think RealD.

Perhaps they could be made to work?


Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:41 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:09 pm
Posts: 9
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nrv wrote:
Thank you for this link. What a high quality explanation !
To sumarize, I will have ghosting because of the shutter glasses "response time". While the glasses switch, both eyes can more or less see the screen at the same time.
The solution is either "Black frame insertion" or "Strobe backlight" on the screen to make the screen dark while the glasses switch. That's the lightboost of my asus vg278H.
Unfortunately on an OLED TVs, there is no "Strobe backlight", and my TV does not allow black frame insertion at 120Hz input.
So I will have some ghosting no matter what.

My first 3D kit was 3D Vision 2, which introduced lightboost. But before version 2, there was 3D Vision version 1, with no lightboost, with more ghosting than version 2, but I believe - I hope - it worked well enough.
So I still wonder if the input lag of the tv, which is 1.6 frame long, is not my main problem. It would explain why I see R and L frames inverted, and why I feel like the screen refreshes during the time of full aperture of my glasses.


No problem! It's actually a complicated issue, because you also have to take into account how and where the panels are refreshed too. There are different methods, Sample and Hold and rolling scan, plus on many LCD screens the pixels have different response times at different parts of the screen, that's why even on some 3d vision certified displays you can get ghosting at the top or bottom but not in the middle. OLED pixel response times are miniscule, but I think they use rolling scan which probably means there will be a visible bar moving up or down the screen:

https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?t=3388


Anyway, I don't pretend to fully understand it. Well, I read up on it then forget some of it each time ;-)

I'll add a few other comments in no particular order:

1. I'm sure your problems are nothing to do with input lag
2. If the images are completely inverted then turning the glasses upside down will reverse the effect. Also there are software methods to 'swap the eyes' which achieves the same thing.
3. Try using the EDID of a 3d vision supported display, not a frame packed mode. Start with something that is 1920x1080x120Hz.
4. Use the blurbusters 'ufo' check to make sure that you're getting the full 120 frames with no frame skipping.
5. On my dlp projector, I tried quite a few different EDIDs, I just picked them based on resolution. Once you've picked a certified display then you can use the tool to alter the timings, so it probably doesn't matter that much which one you pick. Maybe the author of the tool did fully decrypt/decode what those timings that are in the registry are but I've never seen it posted publically.
6. Also, on my DLP I could get 3d vision to kick in and work, but I had sync drift issues that appear to be unresolveable. Again, this isn't linked to input lag at all.
7. The 2019 9 series OLEDS were supposed to support BFI at 120Hz and it was one of the features LG touted before release. Unfortunately at launch the feature was missing and LG never really explained why, except that there were quality issues and they removed the functionality. If you go over to AVSFORUMS and do some searching you can read more.
Maybe they'll add it to the 2020 OLEDS in which case I'll get a bit excited again! :-)


Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:47 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:20 am
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Does someone know the EDID of a 3DVision supported display, not in frame packed mode ?


Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:42 am
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Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
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Heres the edid from my monitor the .inf and .bin from monitor asset manager.

http://www.cnszb.publicvm.com/files/3dvisionBenQ.zip


Hope it helps

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Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:39 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:49 pm
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You can use Custom Resolution Utility by ToastyX to simply change the display id.

It was reported on the old forums that sometimes it would not work correctly.

But if it does, it would show up as that display in the Nvidia Control Panel.

Here's a list to try. You might try the Acer H5360, it was an early model that does not seem to have the restrictions in place, that seem to be on later displays.

Attachment:
List of 3D Vision Ready hardware.xlsx


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Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:10 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:20 am
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to russellk : Thank you for your links. I've read so much !
to 3DNovice : Thank you for this file. It helped me identify an old monitor compatible with 3DVision.

Using the EDID of a 3D monitor, I always get the red warning when I use the "attempt to run Stereoscopic 3D in non-stereo display mode, please change to an acceptable mode. See documentation for acceptable Stereoscopic 3D modes".

Using the EDID of a Projector : All those I tried have a strange command sequence : L_OFF, R_ON, R_OFF, L_ON. I could not understand what the timings do with that sequence. I tried to change the sequence and it was worst.

Even after hours trying differents timings, I'm still not sure about what they do.

So I chose the ViewSonic VX2235wm EDID : VSC591E. It's an old "not 3D" monitor. It has a logical command sequence : L_OFF, L_ON, R_OFF, R_ON.
Since Left and Right glasses were inverted, I modified the command sequence to : R_OFF, R_ON, L_OFF, L_ON.
With that sequence Y is the "open" duration of the glasses, W and X delay the start of that "open" time.
I get the same results increasing W or X as long as I remain in middle range values, but that doesn't work with extreme values.

I then modified the timings with NvTimingsEd to W=3800, X=3900, Y=3000 to get a not too dark image with "acceptable" crosstalk on the top and bottom.
The timings W=3800, X=4774.17, Y=2079.92 give a little less crosstalk, but the image is darker.
The timings W=3800, X=4774.17, Y=1500 give even less crosstalk, but the image is really too dark.

It seems the tv does not display the full image at once, but rather uses a rolling scan.
That means I can't have the full left eye image on the screen, and the full right eye image after that.
I always get part of the left eye image, and part of the right eye image at the same time, which generates crosstalk and distortions.
So I played with timings to get the center of the screen matching the glasses.
I kept a small band with crosstalk at the top, and a larger band at the bottom, considering the bottom will more often be occupied by "0 depth" elements.

The result looks good, at least "good enough" to watch a 3D movie. But I haven't watched a full movie yet.


Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:03 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:09 pm
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Thanks for all the feedback! I think now we're back on a proper forum this is the kind of info that is going to be important going forwards.


Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:18 pm
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