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 Grainy appearance in 120Hz mode (3D Vision + ASUS VG278H) 
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One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:13 pm
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Hello all at MTBS3D :)

it's been over 5 years since I posted here - (back in the day I was an early adopter of edimensional glasses using a Diamondtron 2070SB CRT).
After a long break from S3D gaming, I am happy to be back in the game as of last week with an Asus VG278H monitor to accompany my current PC setup (Core i7 - GTX670 - Win7 Ultimate 64bit).

My question:
Has the issue I am highlighting below ever been addressed, an official statement released, or a workaround/fix found?

The background:
My initial impressions of S3D with the Asus screen were (and still are) very positive but one thing quickly started to bug me (as detailed later in this post) and after doing some googling, my observations were confirmed in the below forum topic:

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topi ... ch-bundle/

What surprised me is that this thread runs from Feb 2009 to Feb 2011 and nowhere within the thread is there a response from any representative of Nvidia.
I am using the very latest Geforce Driver64bit 313.96 beta (from 29/01/2013) but I have also tested with the last WHQL release 310.90 (05/01/2013) and observed the same problem with both driver sets.

The issue:
Note that my findings are all covered in the linked topic, albeit 4 years ago and on Samsung 120Hz displays.

When in 120Hz 3D mode over Dual Link DVI, I am observing that each of the separate images when viewed without glasses in 120Hz 3D mode looks somehow grainy (almost like a checkerboard effect.)
I have observed this in games such as Trine 2 and Batman Arkham City (although in Arkham City, it's less noticeable.)
When viewed through the glasses in 3D mode, although it's not a game changer, it is clear that there is considerable image degradation compared to 2D mode, and I'm not just talking about loss of brightness, or distorted colour representation compared with 2D, but actually a loss of render quality at the pixel level.
Switching between 2D and 120Hz 3D mode and inspecting without the glasses on shows a clear difference in the quality of rendering.

Repeating this switching/2D 3D comparison exercise When output is set to 3D Vision Discover mode (anaglyph) (with the display still set at 120Hz), while colour is obviously lost because of the anyaglyph mode the 2D image in this mode is identical to it's 3D equivalent.
(ie. looking at the game image through the red lens while in 2D mode, compared to the 'left' stereo image when in 3D mode through the red lens shows an identical quality image.)

While I am sure 120Hz active is better for gaming than a passive gaming display where I would clearly lose some vertical resolution, the resulting 120Hz 3D is not a perfect representation of its 2D equivalent, while the 3D Discover anaglyph mode IS (other than the colour) and anaglyph doesn't require the expensive display/glasses combination!

The end result is that while I have purchased the current 'high end' 3D display for 3D Vision with the purpose of ensuring full frame 1080p to each eye, (as opposed to half vertical resolution per eye on a cheaper passive panel) this 'full quality frame' is not actually displayed for each eye in 3D mode...quality is lost, and along with it some of the reason for going with the 120Hz shutter display in the first place.

Final thoughts:
Has there ever been any confirmation that this is a limitation of the 3D Vision implementation, the current display hardware, or Dual Link DVI transport?
One comment in the thread I have linked suggested that Nvidia may be using some trick to save on shader work in 3D mode...only doing shader rendering at half resolution, or some other trick to reduce GPU load and keep the framerate up which results in the image degradation but in anaglyph 3D mode, the output perfectly matches what is rendered in 2D mode and in 120Hz 2D mode through Dual Link DVI, there is no issue with the image as far as I my observations can tell so I don't think that the problem is in the GPU or with the data transport to the display.
So 1920x1080p@120Hz 2D is the same data output with regard to DVI as 1920x1080p@120Hz 3D (60Hz per eye) - the only difference is that the display has to perform switching in 3D mode, and doesn't have to perform switching in 2D mode.
Could the issue be with the display itself?

Many thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to read this post :)
Robin.


Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:34 am
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I noticed some 3d looked quite different with anti aliasing on. Try changing the Anisotropic filtering too. Under "Adjust desktop color setting" In Nvidia control panel. Can you change the "Digital Color Format"? I also wonder if your EDID driver is correctly synced to your monitor. It must have something to do with the rendering of the video game. Could you try and load your game in "windowed 3d mode" and see if that helps.

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Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:21 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

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[/attachment]
Dom wrote:
I noticed some 3d looked quite different with anti aliasing on. Try changing the Anisotropic filtering too. Under "Adjust desktop color setting" In Nvidia control panel. Can you change the "Digital Color Format"? I also wonder if your EDID driver is correctly synced to your monitor. It must have something to do with the rendering of the video game. Could you try and load your game in "windowed 3d mode" and see if that helps.


Hi Dom.

Thanks for your advice. I really appreciate you taking the time to post a comment.
In windowed 3D mode, inspecting the pixels shows that it looks exactly the same as when in fullscreen 3D mode, and the problem is also there when viewing bluray3D sources in 3D mode, in both PowerDVD and Stereoscopic player.
I read up on EDID override, because my VG278H was being recognised as a 'generic pnp monitor' in Device Manager.
After downloading a .inf file for the VG278H I was able to manually update this, so it now correctly lists my monitor.
There is no option in Nvidia Control Panel for 'Digital Color Format' but by slightly increasing default gamma and 'digital vibrance' setting I was able to slightly improve the results in 3D mode, but 2D mode now looks less natural when doing anything in 2D.


I've attached a few screens to illustrate what I'm seeing, taken from a Bluray3D source played in Sterescopic Player. Both 2D mode and 3D mode are set to 120Hz.
If anyone else has a similar hardware configuration (ie Nvidia 6 series card, VG278H through Dual Link DVI and latest Nvidia drivers as listed below) I would be really interested to know if what I'm seeing is normal and I'm just too OCD, or whether there is a genuine problem!

The first two images (Ex1 - 2D and Ex1 - 3D) were taken before I updated my display EDID and tweaked config. The sample images are quite compressed, so the pixel problem looks less extreme than when viewing directly on the monitor, but still hopefully quite noticeable. There is a pattern of bright red, green and blue running through the entire image when in 3D mode, which destroys all the subtle shading, and flat areas of colour suddenly look patterned.
The second pair of images (Ex2 - 2D and Ex2 - 3D) were taken after I updated my display EDID and tweaked config.
The pixel color is slightly more even after tweaking - however, a lot of the detail compared to the 2D image is still lost and you can still clearly see the unwanted pattern across the whole image.)

Finally, just to be sure I observed both through the left shutter glass and directly without the shutter glass in 3D mode in case this was just a trick of the eye due to viewing 3D without the glasses, but the image comes out exactly the same whether shot through the active shutter or not.

Attachment:
Ex1 - 2D.jpg

Attachment:
Ex1 - 3D.jpg

Attachment:
Ex2 - 2D.jpg

Attachment:
Ex2 - 3D.jpg


Many thanks,
Robin


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Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:09 pm
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Wow! Looks like you are on to something.

I have not noticed that before on the monitors I've tried.

I wonder if its something unique to that particular model or if this is some sort of "optimization" done by Nvidia.

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Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:32 pm
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I had the same thing happen on my old Samsung 120hz monitor now that I remember. It made me wonder why I should even bother using 3d on it anymore. Just like changing the color settings and then going into 2d mode makes it all washy and distorted.

Honestly I think Nvidia does change their processes at will with their drivers, servers.... to give their video cards some kind of stability or something with video or games. It makes me feel the same as my cable company that plays reruns all the time and have some kind of wonky filtering. I think its way past an end-user to fix I guess, for me anyways.

Also maybe give them a call on the phone for technical support... Forums are not really the best way to get their service and support. Most people on forums are just chatting and trying to hack things together.

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