Zalman M215W or M220W?

[GHG]

Hi,

New here and I'm looking into getting a monitor for 3D and have narrowed it down to these two monitors.

I know they are very similar. The only apparent benefits the M215W has over the older 220 is the resolution bump and HDCP support.

However the new stand and apparently lack of height adjustment worries me. Maybe people with the older model can answer this for me, but do you mainly use the tilt rather than the height adjustment to get it in line with your viewing angle?

Does anyone have any experience with the newer model and is it worth the extra money or should I just settle for the older model

[BlackShark]

The new model is very new, I haven't seen any review so far.

When using the 22", tilting is the main way to setup the display, although the height adjustment is a nice bonus. Il allows better fine tuning when you move slightly relative to the screen.

[GHG]

Thanks for the reply.

I've read that in 3D mode text becomes difficult to read. Just how bad is it? Would the text in a game such as Mass Effect (for the speech options) become unreadable?

[cybereality]

Is the 21.5" model available yet? I haven't seen it anywhere. I've got the 22" Zalman. Its pretty cool. The adjustments are key to using it though. I mainly use the height adjustment to get the alignment perfect. Although just the tilt would suffice, then the monitor wouldn't be perpendicular to the table and thats just weird if you ask me. If you get the 21.5" model you could always get a monitor arm for around $100 bucks and that would solve the issue. I think the only difference its 1080P and supports HDCP. I know I am considering getting one for 3D BluRay.

In terms of the current 22" model, I think its a great buy. The resolution does suffer but its not as bad as you would think. Ghosting is low and the general picture is nice and clear. In terms of text, yeah, its hard to read. But its mostly small pixel fonts for example the chat in CounterStrike:Source or the player names in WoW. Larger text like the dialogue boxes in Mass Effect are still legible. A bit annoying but most games are still fully playable with no problems.

[GHG]

Yeh its available in the UK. Various online retailers (Novatech and QuietPC) have it available for around £270. Thats £70 more than what Amazon are selling the old 22" for hence my dilemma.

The only thing that still concerns me is whether the new 21.5" model is actually supported by nvidia or not. Can anyone shed any light on this? On the Zalman website if you go to downloads for it the IZ3D drivers are listed but no Nvidia drivers. It also points you towards the IZ3D games support list in the FAQ's. However the older model has the Nvidia drivers available as a download and uses the Nvidia games support list.

The Nvidia site also doesn't have the new model down under the supported products list http://www.nvidia.com/object/stereo_3D_197.13.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . Although that could be because its so new?

I dunno, but if the new model doesn't have any Nvidia support then its a no buy for me unfortunately (that paired with the higher cost and worse stand), even despite the better resolution and HDCP support. I'd still want the option of having all 3 drivers before a standard is settled upon.

[BlackShark]

I do not have any info on nvidia support for the new monitor.

[GHG]

Right, just sent the question regarding Nvidia support to both Zalman and Nvidia and hoping for an answer soon. Will report back here when I get something.

[cybereality]

Well Nvidia doesn't even acknowledge they support the 22" Zalman at all (and the drivers are impossible to find), so it is no wonder they do not mention this new model. Although Zalman seems to have a deal with iz3D and refers to that driver in the FAQ, they also claim its supported by Nvidia in the promotional photos. But the way Nvidia is its hard to say without seeing it working yourself. Either way it would still be supported by IZ3D and DDD. Many times I find myself using the iz3d driver anyway, but I like the option of running with all 3.

[Likay]

I might be wrong but the new stereooutput in the iz3d-drivers especially for the zalman might indicate a future lack of support from nvidia. Don't take my words for it, i just think it's an indication (together with the "hard-to-find-driver" phenomena we all ol'schoolers experienced when nvidia put down s-3d in the past...). I wouldn't worry about stereosupport for horisontal interleaved solutions though. Until now they had the best stereosupport possible and would probably manage well in the future. At least if you use a computer for your media.

[cybereality]

I might be wrong but the new stereooutput in the iz3d-drivers especially for the zalman might indicate a future lack of support from nvidia.

Not necessarily. Zalman could just be looking to cover their bases.

[GHG]

Well I said sod it this morning and bought it. Guess I'll be the guinea pig .

Hope its good. There aren't even any reviews out there for it yet... Early adopter risk alert.

[cybereality]

Let me know how it goes. I may want to get this model myself.

[DmitryKo]

I might be wrong but the new stereooutput in the iz3d-drivers especially for the zalman might indicate a future lack of support from nvidia.

Not necessarily. Zalman could just be looking to cover their bases.

Well, looks like Nvidia's recent licensing policies finally start to throw people off. Zalman has either jumped off the bandwagon or is very close to jumping off.

Neither ZM-M215W or the newest ZM-M240W feature Nvidia logo, though DDD/Tridef and iZ3D logos are present, newest 3D Vision drivers for Zalman are impossible to find on the Nvidia driver downloads page, and the Downloads section on the Zalman site now offers a special packaged version of iZ3D drivers v1.10, with a list of supported games clearly coming from iZ3D instead of Nvidia.

[GHG]

Right I've got it and 1st impressions are very very good. I'll keep it brief right now because I'm very busy in life at the moment, so sorry no extensive review for now. I'll do it properly next week for you guys.

Its sharp, very sharp, colours are amazing. Picture quality is astounding in 1080p. I don't see the interlaced lines at all when in 2D mode. Maybe Zalman did something to improve that over the M220W but you can't see it. Maybe its the lower dot pitch (its 0.248) that has meant its invisible. It will be interesting to see if the larger M240W has the alternating lines problem or not since the dot pitch is larger.

The tilt stand is more than sufficient to adjust the viewing angle in 3D. The viewing angle isn't as bad as I thought it would be. But then thats because I've set up the angle on the monitor and don't move my chair around from the desk so I'm pretty much in the right position automatically all the time. The 3D is astounding . I've tried out some trailers (the couple of 1080p stereo trailers off Nvidia's website are just mindblowing), images and games and its well above my expectations. I'm using the Tridef drivers at the moment because of ease of use. They just work out of the box whereas the IZ3D drivers seemed to need a fair amount of tweaking (I might need some help from you guys with regards to this, the driver confused the hell out of me) and I just don't have time for that at the moment.

Nvidia's drivers don't work at the moment with this monitor, but aparently they will be adding support for this monitor with their next set of Zalman drivers. When the older M220W 1st came out there wasn't any Nvidia support out of the box and people had to wait a couple of months, the same seems to be the case here as well. At this stage from what I've tried with Tridef I'm not really concerned as to whether it comes or not anyway, its equally as good as 3D vision from what I've seen of that if not better in some games. Plus with Tridef I can play Pro Evolution Soccer in 3D .

If anyone has any questions ask away and I'll try my best to answer when I have the chance.

[cybereality]

@DmitryKo: Yes. While the Nvidia logo is not shown it does say "Most games using the Nvidia, DDD or iz3D 3D drivers are supported to play in 3D stereoscopic mode" which indicates they are still supported by Nvidia.

@GHG: Nice. Glad to see you are happy. The Zalman really is a nice device. The DDD drivers are OK but the iz3d driver supports a lot more titles. I find the DDD driver only works good on officially supported titles while the iz3d/nvidia drivers do better for brand new titles. To bad about Nvidia. Maybe they are still in negotiation with them or something. I really hope it does get supported on the next drivers. I am planning on getting the 24" model, so this is pretty important to me too. Anyway, thanks for the update. Maybe you might want to post a full review up at some time to help other potential buyers.

[GHG]

Oh and I forgot to mention. The 2D text thing is no longer as big an issue. It is totally readable with the glasses on. Again due to the smaller dot pitch I think (it means the pixels are closer together so the missing lines don't impact so much). Yes the clarity is not as good as if you didn't have the glasses on, but its totally readable, even more so the further away from the monitor.

Infact I just put the glasses on to check I'm not just talking rubbish and I can read this post perfectly with the glasses on 30-50 cm from the monitor with the default DPI settings.

Well done Zalman.

[DmitryKo]

it does say "Most games using the Nvidia, DDD or iz3D 3D drivers are supported to play in 3D stereoscopic mode" which indicates they are still supported by Nvidia

We'll see. As of now, only ZM-M220W and ZM-M190 models are listed on the Zalman Stereo Driver download page on Nvidia website, and not ZM-M215W or ZM-M240W; besides that, the latest driver release is just impossible to find.

http://www.nvidia.com/Download/index5.aspx?lang=en-us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
MTBS News - Updated 197.45 Stereo Drivers

[Myon]

@GHG: there are a couple of things that i would like to hear about the monitor, when you have time.

What do you think about the "crosstalk", is the 3d-experience as good as in theatre - with little or no crosstalk/glitches? (you know, things appearing where they shouldn't...)

how are the drivers? you said earlier that you hadn't tried the iz3d or ddd drivers, have you tried those now? how is the monitor in games?

[BlackShark]

Tha ability to read very small test even with the glasses on is weird. especially when text is onyl one pixel big. Could there be some special feature in the screen we don't know about ?

What happens when you get very close to the screen ? do you see the gaps between the lines ?
Do you use any special option to read small text (some kind of optimisation you can switch on/off in the display).


---------------------------

ghosting test : can you use Wbloos' ghosting test picture ?
How much black and white ghosting do you get with the new Zalman screen ?

[GHG]

Tha ability to read very small test even with the glasses on is weird. especially when text is onyl one pixel big. Could there be some special feature in the screen we don't know about ?

What happens when you get very close to the screen ? do you see the gaps between the lines ?
Do you use any special option to read small text (some kind of optimisation you can switch on/off in the display).


---------------------------

ghosting test : can you use Wbloos' ghosting test picture ?
How much black and white ghosting do you get with the new Zalman screen ?

There is no instance where text would only be one pixel big... never! That is unless its a full stop. But even still, full stops will generally be 4 or 9 pixels big depending on DPI settings. There is no special setting at all. Whn I get close to the screen with the glasses on yes I see the lines but the lines are absolutely tiny. As I said before, I'd assume its down to the high dot-pitch, thus every individual pixel on the screen is smaller. The pixels really are tiny on this monitor, hence everything looks a lot sharper and 2D text is still readable with the glasses on.

If you consider the fact that one way to decrease visual distortion is via compression; Now imagine your 22" zalman with a resolution of 1650x1050 and your looking at 2D text on it with the glasses on. Now teh text is distorted because you see gaps between the text every other line right? So that means charaters are not fluid in shape so you can't makle them out because your brain can't work out what the charaters are meant to be. Now imagine compressing that image infront of you down to a smaller one. When that happens the gaps inbetween the lines become much smaller so your brain can ignore the gaps so that text appears more solid and thus its more readable. If you want a more visual example, take any 1080p image you can find and using any image editing software, make that image 1650 x 1050 in size. Do you see the difference? Its called downsampling and thats whats at work here in this case. Its a technique widely used in the gaming industry to increase image quality and reduce aliasing (jagged edges). Thats the best real life example I can find.

The physical size of the new screen is also smaller (21.5" vs 22") but yet manages to pack in 17.6% more pixels.

Also, I've downloaded that picture and don't really understand what I'm looking for...?

@GHG: there are a couple of things that i would like to hear about the monitor, when you have time.

What do you think about the "crosstalk", is the 3d-experience as good as in theatre - with little or no crosstalk/glitches? (you know, things appearing where they shouldn't...)

how are the drivers? you said earlier that you hadn't tried the iz3d or ddd drivers, have you tried those now? how is the monitor in games?

When watching movies, yes the 3D is just as good as I've seen in the cinema, if not slightly better.

The ghosting is minimal providing the 3D settings aren't set to really ambitious levels.

[BlackShark]

It's a ghosting test picture.

Open the picture in your favourite stereo photo viewer.
You'll notice that some columns next to the vertical scales are pure white in one eye and pure black in the other eye.
Look at your screen through only one glass lens and see if the brightness changes.
-> black ghosting, compare the white column to see if they appear darker
-> white ghosting, compare the black column to see if they appear brighter

Use the scales to measure how much ghosting you get by comparing the brightness of the columns with the brightness of the scale.

[GHG]

It's a ghosting test picture.

Open the picture in your favourite stereo photo viewer.
You'll notice that some columns next to the vertical scales are pure white in one eye and pure black in the other eye.
Look at your screen through only one glass lens and see if the brightness changes.
-> black ghosting, compare the white column to see if they appear darker
-> white ghosting, compare the black column to see if they appear brighter

Use the scales to measure how much ghosting you get by comparing the brightness of the columns with the brightness of the scale.

Ok, done it.

No white ghosting, just a slight amount of black ghosting.

[Dilip]

Dear GHG

My self Darshan a 3d enthu from india
here in india no much there no awareness or tradition for 3d monitors. very less people own 3d products

I am visiting HongKong soon and have plan to buy ZALMAN 3D monitor my questions are

1> Have you tested games on ZM-M215W, can games be played in any other resolution then native resolution like in 1280X1024?
2> Don you find it difficult to adjust viewing angle as there is no height adjustment in ZM-M215W?
3> Have you tried NVIDIA forceware by selecting lower resolution or monitor doesn't show 3d in any resolution other then native one?
4>Like to know much details once you complete testing

[cybereality]

You can use different resolutions other than native on the Zalman, however in 3D mode they cannot be stretched. In the settings you have to choose "no scaling" of lower resolution content. This means if you play say a 1280x1024 game then there will be a black border around the image.

[Neil]

This depends on the driver solution. DDD has a feature that lets you play in reduced resolution and properly scales the image to your display in 3D mode.

Regards,
Neil

[Dilip]

@cybereality: i have one month back sold my old system (P4 1.6,845WN intel bord,1gb
ddr2 ram,geforce 6600,forceware 91.31,Xforce3D shutter glass and Sony 17" Flat CRT)
i have enjoyed great 3d with shutter glass,
Planning to buy corei3 system, H55 M.B.,2GB ddr3 ram,Geforce GTX 260 card,

My experience with Nvidia was great i have also tried DDD and Iz3d. DDD drivers are
good but relatively small list of supported games. with IZ3D i had some issues so i prifer
nvidia drivers over both of this drivers.

My delima is
1. ZM-M220W at price of 2980Hk$ from Paradise computer systems (http://www.hkpcs.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).
if i go with this one i will get Nvidia driver support as it still provides latest 3D drivers
257.21 with forceware 257.21 or i should go for ZM-M215W-G at price of 4000 HK$
from altech(http://www.altech.com.hk/productinfo.aspx?id=27235" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) Hongkong.
2. It appears form GHG's feedback,lack of height adjustment is not an issue as there is
better tilt adjustment is availble in new design(at least it appears from official images)
3. For GTS 260 HD resolutions must not be framerate killing for morden games?
4. My budget don allow me to cross GTS250/GTS20 at present so considering which would
be better choice ZM-M220W or ZM-M215W.
5. Most of online sellers stoped selling ZM-M220W it would not be trouble if monitor caught
some issue. ( In any case it would be too tough for me to return monitor to HongKong
once purchased) Do zalman monitors work reliably??
6. 3D vision and Samsung 2233RZ are availble but at whopping price of 600US$ iquivalent
INR. besides i enjyed polarized glasses much when i had AVTAR experience at IMAX (yep
we have it in AHMEDABAD//INDIA) so i chosen ZALMAN as IZ3D not available in Hongkong.

I wish to make sensible buy for better experience.
Please guide

[Dilip]

@Neil: its great to see you online
Can you help me make a better choice as this wold be big investment for me
i don won't to make one worth regrate later

No competetion for Nvidia in india but they are way to costly

but there are no other 3D product sellers in india at all

Do 3d LCD safe to buy from outside india as its almost un economical to send it for
replacement do they don encounter probelms normaly?

[cybereality]

I would recommend the 22" model. First and foremost is the price (its cheaper). Secondly it is supported by Nvidia which is a huge plus. Also if you are going with a GTX 260 playing modern games at 1080P in 3D might be a bit taxing. Playing at 1680 x 1050 might be a better fit. However the 22" model doesn't support HDCP so if you are planning on getting BluRay 3D you should probably get the newer model.

[crim3]

About the nvidia drivers for the Zalman, the last time I did a clean install only installed the forceware driver for the nvidia and the stereoscopic options were already at the control panel, and the output was Zalman. I'm talking about the 22" one.
I mean that I didn't have to install the 'stereo driver'.

[Dilip]

@cybereality: Thanks!