Best Buy: Samsung 3D LCD-Ghosting

Post by **mpage** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:29 am

I stopped by Best Buy today to check out 3D blu-ray on the new 3D Samsung LCD. First off, the picture quality is amazing. The one complaint I have (and a very big complaint) is that there was ghosting (i think it is called that), seeing double images of everything. I would close one eye and still see a dimmer, translucent image to the side of the main image. It may be the settings of the display at the Best Buy I went to, but it was very noticeable. Has anyone else checked out this display? If so, did you notice this? For me, this is a deal breaker. I know the tv is not in an optimal viewing area (bright room, reflections on tv), so that may play a role in this problem. I cannot see many people buying into this technology if this is the only home 3D they have seen. I would take my older DLP 3D setup over this anyday, unless it was just a set up problem. I can't wait to see the plasma when it gets to BB. Thoughts?

Post by **BlackShark** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:32 pm

Hi
Thank you for your report.

Yes, the phenomenon you noticed is ghosting.
The actual technical term is "stereo video crosstalk", but people generally use the term "ghosting".

The same phenomenon also happens with all LCD displays, CRT displays and even the 1st generation of 3D plasmas (made by Samsung 2008/2009). You are the first person to report on the new LCD displays, ghosting was expected by I didn't expect it to be that visible at stores, where content is usually well controlled to make the displays shine, and not show their weaknesses. Maybe the shop salesmen aren't familiar with the issues of their 3DTVs yet.

Post by **Likay** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:41 pm

New generation of lcd or plasmadisplays or not. They are still not able to shift images fast enough because of their internal electronic lag. I believe the nvidiadriver compensates for this by decreasing the dutycycle plus adjusting the timing (each supported hardware obviously needs it own profile...) but this of course also dims the image. Either that or you have to put up with ghosting in the upper and lower edge of screens. All lcd's and plasmas will have this property unless a huge step in improvance is made with their internals... I honestly don't think that time has come yet, new generation or not...
Get a dlp-projector for shutters and let lcd/plasmas handle 2d-hd only or get another solution for 3d. I'm only "guessing" but the future will show.

Post by **cybereality** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:32 pm

Hmm, I'm sorry to hear that. Maybe the Samsung 3D plasma will be better. I know I saw the Panasonic 3D plasma (VT20) in Best Buy and I did not notice any ghosting at all. Other people that have been to trade shows seem to think the plasmas are better quality in terms of 3D. So maybe this is just an LCD issue.

Post by **DmitryKo** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:58 am

This is not good, considering similar reports of ghosting on Sony LCD TVs... looks like plasma is the right way to go.

Post by **Likay** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:05 am

cybereality wrote:Hmm, I'm sorry to hear that. Maybe the Samsung 3D plasma will be better. I know I saw the Panasonic 3D plasma (VT20) in Best Buy and I did not notice any ghosting at all. Other people that have been to trade shows seem to think the plasmas are better quality in terms of 3D. So maybe this is just an LCD issue.

Could be. I had the impression that the actual dataline is somewhat similar between the two. I revised the post above.
However: if the plasmas do have a similar delay to lcd's (which i believe they have) then maybe the driver is better optimized for less ghosting on those (lower duty cycle) by only keeping the shutters open when the image is correct. You do loose more light this way though.

Post by **DmitryKo** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:21 am

if the plasmas do have a similar delay to lcd's (which i believe they have)

Plasma panels are inherently faster devices than LCD panels and have much lower pixel response time, in the order of nanoseconds. They might have similar image processing delay due to similar hardware platforms, but "PC mode/Game mode" in modern TVs cancels any additional processing beyond what is really necessary.

The often cited "480 Hz" or "600 Hz" figure is essentially just a carrier frequency for pulse-width modulation scheme, which is the method of controlling pixel brightness in plasma displays (speaking of duty cycles btw). The only way plasma panels could experience ghosting was probably an optimistic duty cycle which improved picture brightness at the cost of slight ghosting, but latest-generation plasma panels should offer adequate brightness even in 3D mode.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_display#Advantages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_dis ... plays_work

BTW I believe Samsung buys plasma panels from a 3rd party and that might explain why the specs are very similar for latest plasma TVs from Panasonic and Samsung.

Post by **mpage** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:53 am

I just talked to a colleague who went to a different Best Buy to view the 3D. He said it was amazing. But, the only 3D he has ever seen before was Avatar. When I asked him if he saw any ghosting, he said he did not notice any. I'm not sure if some people don't notice the ghosting, or that setup made a difference. I'm going to try another store to see if there is any difference.

Post by **Likay** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:32 am

The pixel responce time of lcd's are quick enough to work with shutters as well (shutters uses lcd btw). I certainly mean the decoding process before the image is actually shown on screen. This process is not exact, but quite similar to the one in lcds. This is also what i think causes the most delay and problem. Since plasmas generally are brighter than lcd's you have bigger oppurtunities to compensate ghosting to decrease (the shutters) duty cycle and still maintain a decent brightness. The compability overall with shutters will probably be random though.

Post by **DmitryKo** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:50 pm

Likay wrote:The pixel responce time of lcd's are quick enough to work with shutters as well

Even the fastest screens with realtime compensation just average at 6-8 milliseconds of pixel response time, which is like 2-3 orders of magnitude worse than plasma or CRT, and barely enough for 120 Hz stereo.

Post by **Likay** » Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:46 am

Then shutters would be useless since they're using lc's as well.
It's the decoding process that hasn't got enough bw to process and shift the whole image fast enough in an lcd-display. New gen or not they need to improve a bit more before working well in 3d.
Lcd-displays should theoretically have a silght advantage since the polarization of the display can match the shutters to avoid loss of polarization. Practically they're probably still far behind plasmas because plasmas are more brighter.

Post by **DmitryKo** » Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:53 am

Likay wrote:Then shutters would be useless since they're using lc's as well

No. Full On-Off transitions in LC Displays are the fastest, it's gray-to-gray transitions that take the most time.

It's the physical properties of liquid crystals, which react quite slowly to the slight change in the magnetic field. The "real-time compensation" circuits in modern displays compensate for this "laziness" by first applying excess amounts of power ("overdrive") so the crystals would start turning more quickly, then cancel the overdrive shortly after and start slowly orienting the crystals to the precise angle. This can cause "overdrive artifacts" because the crystals do not orient prcisely to the desired position in the overdrive phase.

Also, shutter glasses use much thinner LC layer since they don't have to block as much light as backlit LCDs, so their reaction time should be considerably better (just like reflective LCDs in projection setups). Most old shutter glasses can sync at up to 240 Hz.

Lcd-displays should theoretically have a silght advantage since the polarization of the display can match the shutters to avoid loss of polarization

No. Plasma displays have an advantage because they genuinely emit unpolarized light, unlike backlit LCDs which have to first polarize the light then block it with liquid-crystal analysers.

There's nothing to match with the polarizer screen in the shutter glasses - you can even lay your head on your shoulder, which is impossible with LCD TVs since the polarization angles will mismatch.

Post by **Likay** » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:03 am

DmitryKo wrote:
Likay wrote:Then shutters would be useless since they're using lc's as well
No. Full On-Off transitions in LC Displays are the fastest, it's gray-to-gray transitions that take the most time.

It's the physical properties of liquid crystals, which react quite slowly to the slight change in the magnetic field. The "real-time compensation" circuits in modern displays compensate for this "laziness" by first applying excess amounts of power ("overdrive") so the crystals would start turning more quickly, then cancel the overdrive shortly after and start slowly orienting the crystals to the precise angle. This can cause "overdrive artifacts" because the crystals do not orient prcisely to the desired position in the overdrive phase.

Also, shutter glasses use much thinner LC layer since they don't have to block as much light as backlit LCDs, so their reaction time should be considerably better (just like reflective LCDs in projection setups). Most old shutter glasses can sync at up to 240 Hz.[/qoute]

Taken, haven't done all my homework.

DmitryKo wrote:
Likay wrote:Lcd-displays should theoretically have a silght advantage since the polarization of the display can match the shutters to avoid loss of polarization
No. Plasma displays have an advantage because they genuinely emit unpolarized light, unlike backlit LCDs which have to first polarize the light then block it with liquid-crystal analysers.

There's nothing to match with the polarizer screen in the shutter glasses - you can even lay your head on your shoulder, which is impossible with LCD TVs since the polarization angles will mismatch.

[/quote]What i meant is that already polarized light (lcd to shutters) goes through a polarizer with significant less losses (almost none) compared to unpolarized light where you loose minimum 55% through the polarizer (case with plasmas). But generally plasmas are brighter than lcd's so this could equalize. The ability to tilt your head is no advantage since stereopsys gets worse with increased angle so that should be counted out.

Post by **DmitryKo** » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:21 am

Likay wrote:already polarized light (lcd to shutters) goes through a polarizer with significant less losses (almost none) compared to unpolarized light where you loose minimum 55% through the polarizer (case with plasmas). But generally plasmas are brighter than lcd's so this could equalize

Not quite. I'd imagine total brightness in 3D mode would still be better with plasmas (even though the perceived loss of brightness going from 2D mode to 3D mode would be more noticeable) since the light only has to travel through one polarizer that resides in the shutter glasses; with LCDs, the light travels through two polarizers - first one in the LCD screen, the second one in the shutter glasses, so there should be more total losses.

Then again, plasma can compensate for the brightness falloff by adjusting the PWM duty cycle to better match shutter glasses on-off intervals; the LCDs are less flexible because of their slower pixel response times.

Post by **Hornet** » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:41 am

Hi all,
I think the problem is in Samsung glasses, the qality of this glasses isnt very good. Samsung glasses are ghosting on my system, but the old edims not.

Post by **DmitryKo** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:57 am

It would be quite silly for Samsung to ruin the stereo 3D experience on a $2500 set by supplying cheap low-quality glasses.

Post by **cybereality** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:46 am

DmitryKo wrote:It would be quite silly for Samsung to the stereo 3D experience on a $2500 set by supplying cheap low-quality glasses.

Silly, yes, but at the same time quite possible.

Post by **DmitryKo** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:01 am

I mean, Samsung owners are basically screwed because their own glasses work less than perfect, and the set does not support 3rd party glasses through the VESA Stereo port. If Samsung glasses worked perfectly and 3rd party glasses were not, that could be a legitimate reason to require Samsung glasses only, otherwise it's just a stupid decision.

Hopefully someone will be able to test Samsung LCD TV sets with XpanD x103 glasses, which should be compatible with Samsung protocol, and see if the ghosting still remains.

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:08 pm

Its official, there's ghosting on the Samsungs:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/vide ... 935238001/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **Freke1** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:14 pm

I don't think Our eyes can see anything through the darkened lens after having just viewed a bright image. If there is any ghosting it comes from differences in timing the open/close and I would imaging that would look differently than general ghosting?

I will not be buying that ghosting TV. I already got one that can do that

Post by **DmitryKo** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:01 am

Freke1 wrote:If there is any ghosting it comes from differences in timing the open/close

I still think it's a flaw of LCD panels, not the glasses. We need more real-world tests from different brands of TVs and glasses though.

and I would imaging that would look differently than general ghosting?

No. Everything in between ideally separated ghost-free images and severe ghosting (like the one you see without shutter glasses on) would still look like ghosting.

Post by **Kimber** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:07 am

Today I watched Monsters Vs Aliens for about 1 minute worth, Best buy was busy. I expected very obvious ghosting. But it was barely noticable and hard to find. Admittedly I only watched a minute. And it may have been the wrong part of the movie.

I was very impressed by what I saw.

Post by **wnielsenbb** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:33 pm

I watched the Samsung LCD for a few minutes at Fry's electronics. It was very impressive. I didn't notice ghosting either, but I was mostly just in awe. I am sure if I bought it I would notice. It is a million times better than 3D I had on my old Nec 21" crt a dozen years ago, but that is to be expected. Then I walked over to the Mitisubishi Laservue and am still blown away by the image quality of that thing. I think the HDI display with 3D and lasers will be fun to see.
I saw a non-3D samsung at Costco and it was only a couple hundred less than the 3D version.
sorry, kind of rambling.

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:54 pm

This is really upsetting because I wanted to get the Samsung but I despise ghosting. Seems to be a mixed bag here, some people saying it looks ok. I think I have to see this for myself.

Post by **wnielsenbb** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:51 pm

You should see for yourself for sure. The plasma's are about the same price though. On the other hand samsung's product map showed a lot of cheaper 3D sets coming soon.

Post by **PalmerTech** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:46 am

I just saw this.

I have an IZ3D, it has ghosting. This? I could see very little to no ghosting, depending on the scene.

Seriously, I was in awe at how great the image quality was.

Post by **mpage** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:32 am

I think that once you get over the image quality of the 3D, you will start to notice a lot of ghosting. Not sure, but are some people's eyes more susceptible to ghosting? Also, the scene I saw in Best Buy was when they were on the bridge. May have been that particular part, but I doubt it since the consumer reports video showed the same amount of ghosting that I saw.

Post by **DmitryKo** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:49 am

I have never seen any ghosting in movie theaters, including passive polarized glasses setups like RealD 3D/Disney 3D, IMAX 3D, IMAX Digital 3D, and shutter-glasses based Dolby 3D Digital Cinema.

Post by **travisstl** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:43 am

I bought the 46 LED 3D and player w/Monster vs Aliens. I had ghosting issues and then…changed my HDMI cable for a 1.3a (Sony high speed) cable and It was a night and day difference. The HDMI cable quality is a huge play for the picture.

Post by **Ardov** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:14 am

@DmitryKo,

Well, i've seen ghosting in Final Destination 4 on a RealD Theatre setup. The white subtitles when displayed had some crosstalk and in high contrast scenes like night shots, there was also noticeable crosstalk.

@travisstl,

It's hard to believe that, since ghosting comes from a number of factors, mainly pixel response times of an LCD panel (with or without LED backlight), quality of shutterglasses and synchronization signaling. The HDMI signal is prone to jitter problems which get corrected by the HDMI chips inside the circuit. A better cable could be more resistant to jitter fluctuations but i don't think that jitter (measured in the scale of picoseconds) could be a so important factor so as to decrease crosstalk by a considerable amount.

Post by **Likay** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:14 pm

Ardov wrote:@DmitryKo,

Well, i've seen ghosting in Final Destination 4 on a RealD Theatre setup. The white subtitles when displayed had some crosstalk and in high contrast scenes like night shots, there was also noticeable crosstalk.

@travisstl,

It's hard to believe that, since ghosting comes from a number of factors, mainly pixel response times of an LCD panel (with or without LED backlight), quality of shutterglasses and synchronization signaling. The HDMI signal is prone to jitter problems which get corrected by the HDMI chips inside the circuit. A better cable could be more resistant to jitter fluctuations but i don't think that jitter (measured in the scale of picoseconds) could be a so important factor so as to decrease crosstalk by a considerable amount.

I've also seen crosstalk when watching the avatarmovie on a real-d theatre. As for you the (bright yellow) subtitles ghosted awfully. However i didn't notice any ghosting in the actual picture. I've read somewhere that real-d uses an antighosting algorithm to minimize the percepted ghosting (might be why some people prefer imax before real-d btw). I assume the subtitles are added afterwards and therefore the ghosting is visible especially on those. I want to say i'm guessing but it seems to be the case. Real-d uses circular polarization which indeed ghosts more than linear. Maybe because the filters in the real-d projector is rotating (linear cannot be used). They have a number of different solutions though.

Post by **BlackShark** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:29 pm

I've seen ghosting at all cinemas i've been to :

I saw some on an Xpand equipped theater when I saw the movie "UP"
I saw some at a RealD equipped theater when I saw both Avatar and Dragons
I saw some at an IMAX 3D theatre when I saw a CG movie about lunar landings made by Northrop Grumman (I forgot the name of that movie)

Post by **cybereality** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:26 pm

Just for the record I have seen about 20 3D films between about 6 theaters in RealD and I could say there is no discernible ghosting. I did see ghosting only on one short scene in Toy Story, and I was actively looking for ghosting. Otherwise it has been a pretty much ghost-free experience.

Post by **budda** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:49 pm

Hi,

According to SAMSUNG, there is no such thing as ghosting as we all know it.

It's now called Layering.

This great marketing concept and technical achievement has been ripped straight out of the nvidia marketing manual.

Read this - it comes straight out of the SAMSUNG 3D LED TV blurb:-

Stunning 3D Images

The most advanced 3D technology is embedded in each Samsung 3D panel to produce the most vibrant viewing experience available. The imaging features include a reduced response time between left- and right-eye images to produce clearer pictures with less layering, plus technology to decrease image distractions such as flickering and juddering in fast-paced action. All of these combine to produce a seamless moving image with incredible 3D beauty, in your own lounge room!

Hooray, ghosting is dead, long live layering(TM).

Thanks.

Post by **Likay** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:38 am

Man, we got terms... I always heard the proper term for ghosting is crosstalk but ghosting is more widely used. But layering??? That terms is "gimmicky". I like it!

Post by **space123321** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:29 am

I have viewed my local Future Samsung demo several times - all with serious ghosting issues... I was then told to check out a local tv specialty store as they had the Samsung setup and had fined tuned the setting correctly. The result that I seen at the local speciaty store had virtually no ghosting at all! They were running side-by-side videos from the memory stick, not the bluray... result looked great!

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:28 pm

Well I think the real term is crosstalk but ghosting is the general term most people are familiar with. However I could see how "ghosting" could sound scary to people so maybe layering is a safer term.

Post by **Wober** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:32 pm

I confirm that there is some ghosting.
AND there is another HUGE probleblem.... try to whach those TVs putting your eyes on a vertical position (turn the glasses at 90°).....
The ghosting doesn't ruin the expirience and I think that with a proper setup could be reduced to a "near-zero value".
Those samsung glasses are crap, when you look away from the TV, (they loose the ir signal) you clearly see some flickering... the same is when the get re-sinc this is more noticiable than in other glasses expecially when there is too much light.

I don't know about nvidia vision, but do the nvidia or reald glasses get dark if moved at 90° in front of the screen ?????
Please answer to this question because the new panasonic glasses do not have this problem.

Post by **budda** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:14 am

Hi,

I have seen the in-store demonstration of the Samsung 3D LED TV.

There are many positive aspects to the new TV's, but there are some significant problems.

The major problem is ghosting or layering as Samsung likes to call it.

The positives are:-

1. Great colour
2. 3D looks impressive even from a distance
3. Shutterglasses are comfortable, wide-screen, clear and lightweight
4. Good range for shutterglasses synchronisation

The negatives are:-

1. Reflective front glass
2. No standard for generic shutterglasses synchronisation
( my edimensional wireless shutterglasses based on the VESA 1997.11 standard did not work)
3. Unacceptable ghosting in some high contrast scenes
4. Potential flickering from external lighting sources

Basically, the problems with ghosting and LCD (backlit LED) S3D displays are going to be a serious industry problem.

Plasmas were cast aside recently in favour of LCD-LED and the TV manufacturers have invested billions of dollars in manufacturing infrastructure for LCD TV production.

The manufacturers are going to extreme lengths to get this LCD technology to work in S3D, but I think they have reached a technical limit.

Whilst Sony and others are still to release their LCD panel technology, I doubt they will overcome this ghosting shortcoming.

I hope I am wrong.

I look forward to seeing Plasma technology make a comeback, as it seems the most promising candidate for high-end S3D TV viewing - until OLED TV's are eventually introduced.

AND by the way, there has been no mention of the ghosting contrast ratio (GCR) of these S3D displays ..... very strange indeed.

Thanks.

Post by **bouvrie** » Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:35 am

@ Wober, budda

Your posts seem to summarize my current view on (and concerns about) the Samsung 3D LCD demo's I've seen. The color and 3D effect is stunning, yet the layering and the proprietary shutter glasses might pose problems.

Also, all the demos I've seen were based on the Monsters vs Aliens movie and some demos that came on that Bluray. Yet, I wonder about the compatibility of Samsung's 3D screens wrt video games.

The PS3 had a firmware update and there are (iZ3D) drivers for the PC that should enable '3D'. What's the quantity/quality of video games (PS3 and primarily PC-driven in my case) on a 3D Samsung LCD, and (how?) does it relate to Nvidia's 3D Vision?