New to 3d - Alienware? Acer? Samsung?

[yig]

Hi, sorry for the post, it's yet another "help I am new" thread.
But this subject just seems so confusing, and subjective in many regards.

I suppose I will begin with what my 3d expectations are.

I had never really seen modern 3d. I saw Captain Eo as a child at Disney World/Epcot, and always remembered it was an amazing experience as a 7 year old in 1988.
Over the years I saw the red/blue 3d, and always wondered if that was what I saw at Epcot, and why what I found after looked so bad in comparison.
Flash forward 20 years. I am an artist and photo retoucher/reconstructor. Color is my life! I love color, and I love high resolution computer game graphics. The first time I saw high rez real time 3d rendering in 1997-98 or so, I was hooked.
I came into some money a few years ago, and ended up buying a 30" Apple Cinema display. The colors are wonderful, I game at 2560 x 1600, but the motion blur can at times be annoying. But I don't mind it all so much.

I am borderline psychotic over immersion and being immersed in video games. I won't go into the details, but I've created some strange apparatuses over the years to improve immersion. I think the best thing I developed was mounting a huge desk magnifying lens in front of my face that sort of created a poor man's head mounted display, but it get's very tedious wearing the thing when you go for some marathon gaming. But I am supremely obsessed with immersion and gaming.

3D !!!!

Okay, this December I saw AVATAR, and was blown away. I never knew how pristine and colorful 3d could be, and with pretty much no ghosting outside of the eyestrain I adapted to that could come up when I let my eyes slack. I have to play video games with that same quality!!! I saw Avatar in a standard RealD 3d theater setup.

Question 1

Using Avatar as a reference, can I expect to game with that level of quality 3d in a home setup? The same color quality and pristine image free of tacky ghosting I have found in the past ( using a pair of plug in NVIDIA glasses I had in the early 2000s that came free with an Nvidia card I bought, I thought it was an ugly gimmick at the time, I did not realize how far 3d has come)

Question 2

I have been trying to find a home setup now, and have seen the new Alienware and Acer displays advertising Bluray quality 3D. I am working with a budget of around $400-$600, and am seriously considering the Alienware at the moment. Things like resolution are a must have for me, 3d or not.

Here is the new Alienware I am considering

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/prod ... u=320-8846" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I basically want to know if these things are going to offer at least the same quality 3d experience, sans the giant screen and sound system of a theater of course, as Avatar provided.

I am using at the moment a NVIDIA Geforce GTX 260, will this cover my 3d gaming needs or should I get a better card?
Are the new NVIDIA shutter glasses like the polarized glasses I used at the theater, or are they still the weird flickering kind I had to plug in via USB back in 2001 or so that was a blurry headache?

Thanks so much if you managed to read and address these issues for me, I think this is the future of visual media and cannot wait until this stigma of " the gimmick" is overcome by 3d.

[cybereality]

Hey, welcome to the forum!

Avatar was a really cool movie, I'm glad you liked it too. Home 3D solutions do look very good but not necessarily the same as a full theater experience. I find that at home, 3D games can have even more depth than the Avatar movie did (mainly because I can tweak the settings myself). However, most home solutions to have some drawbacks such as ghosting. The colors will be full quality, on say the Nvidia 3D Vision, but they may be some slight ghosting from what I have heard. They experience, however, will be better then older shutter glasses since they work at 120Hz.

In your case the Alienware monitor seems like a good fit. Its one of the only 1080P 3D monitors available and is going for a decent price (keep in mind you need to buy the glasses separately). I usually recommend the Zalman, but if you want the full resolution then you probably won't like it. Will it look as good as the theater? Probably not. But it will look really good on its own right. In certain games the experience will be amazing and I am sure you will be blown away. Keep in mind they are shutter glasses (so they do flicker) but its at 120Hz so it should be pretty smooth. Other monitors, like the Zalman Trimon, use the same type of polarized glasses as RealD, but it has its own drawbacks. Shutter glasses can look very good with the right setup. A GTX 260 will probably be fine. I'm still using an 8800 GTS 512MB and its holding up. Let me know if you have any other questions.

[Freke1]

I would imaging sitting 3m away from one of the 60"-80" DLP TV's (on this list: http://www.3dmovielist.com/3dhdtvs.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) watching a FullHD 3D video (like some of these: http://www.3d.wep.dk/3dgallery.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) would come very close to watching Avatar in the theater (from one of the back rows). They use checkerboard 3D which I don't think the upcomming 2010 models will so You may want to wait with buying a big monitor.

[yig]

So this nividia setup I would use with the Alienware, the wireless glasses use the on/off flicker method? I think I am a bit biased against the idea just from the old shutters I used almost ten years ago, they've come a long way then? I remember it being dim and washed out. The 120 hz smooths as well as has a vivid colorful picture?

Someday I hope to explore the world of head mounted displays. Is there any sort of option or model one of you would recommend I check out? Even outside my given price range?

Thanks, and thank you very much for replying

[yig]

Also when I am asking to compare things to the Avatar experience, I am more referring to just the lack of ghosting and the great color quality I saw with Avatar. It looked like a normal movie or TV image in 3d. Most of my experience with home 3d you have to be in the perfect spot lining up the image and there was still a sense of blurred double image and ghosting on the edges of your vision or between the eyes, but with Avatar it seemed to be pristine, no matter my angle or if I turned my head. It just sort of strained my eyes. Home 3d has always seemed rough and low quality to me, only 3d in the places you focus.

So I am not talking about the experience of seeing a blockbuster at the theater on a giant screen with in your face sound, I am just talking about how clear the 3d was and vibrant the color. For the most part I think you've answered that though.
I wish the stores in my area had displays of this technology for me to see for myself before buying. But I think the Alienware will be good, overall so far, just for the 120 hz. I love my 30" apple widescreen, but the blurring does bother me at times.

[cybereality]

The only HMD worth looking at right now is the VR920. It sells for around $300. However I highly recommend you get a 3D monitor and not the HMD. HMDs are really cool, in theory, but the ones on the current market suffer from a number of issues. Mainly a low resolution and small FOV, which makes it look like you are looking at the very small virtual screen. Then there are the comfort and convenience issues. All in all, not worth the trouble.

[BlackShark]

You seem to have very high expectations from the quality of your displays.
Unfortunately, i have to tell you that the cinema quality with vivid colour without ghosting or flicker does exist but isn't currently available on the consumer market for less than 600$.
What you are looking for are custom made projection systems or professional grade 3D solutions that cost many thousands of dollars. (there are 26" 3D solutions that match your quality criteria made by Planar i have been able to see this display in person and it is absolutely gorgeous but Planar is outrageously expansive)

For all the consumer solutions currently on the market, there are compromises.
First you have to remember that all 3D LCD displays currently available on the consumer market use TN panels which is not good if you like high quality high precision colour.

The nvidia glasses are shutter glasses : the exact same type that you used in the past (just with a better battery and nicer design). The flicker effect you get is identical to what you experienced before at equivalent refresh rates. So if you already tested 120Hz refresh rates back then, you already know what to expect. However if your CRT monitor wasn't capable of 120Hz refresh rate at that time, then you might want to try it out before saying if it's ok or if it flickers too much.
From my personal experience, i found out that 120Hz is enough if I play in the dark, but as soon as I turn on any light in the room I start to feel the flicker effect, which gets more and more annoying as the light increases. 120Hz is absolutely unusable in the daylight for example.
Shutter glasses solutions still suffer from ghosting on LCD monitors and it's the #1 complaint at the nvidia forums so it's not close to being ghosting free like when you saw Avatar at the cinema. For that, you'd need a DLP based projector system.

Brightness and colour is screen dependant. The glasses darken the picture a lot so the backlights of the monitor have to be amped up to provide good quality. I haven't tested the new Alienware or Acer 24" monitors, I only saw the samsung and viewsonic 22" models and I found them quite dark with the 3D glasses on.

In comparison, my current Zalman Trimon offers absolute zero flicker, much better brightness andcolour (even if they're not great), and less gosting than nvidia's shutter glasses solutions. But as a drawback it's half vertical resolution, only 22" and has that vertical view angle sweet spot issue that all tiny Xpol displays have.
The Zalman monitor is currently the consumer LCD 3D monitor with the less ghosting but there is still some, nothing serious though, on most scenes with normal contrasts it's not annoying (even when playing very high contrst games like Audiosurf or a racing game with bright white lines on a black asphalt road... but it's visible.

[yig]

This decision is killing me, I wish i could simply go to a store that had these on display so I could decide based on actual results.

As it stands, I think I am going to decide between a Zalman and the new Alienware.

Zalman's price is really attractive, as well as the lack of ghosting issue, and I really was leaning more towards some simple polarized glasses.
But Alienware has the resolution I want, which in the end I think I'd take over the most vivid color and brightness possible.

I am leaning more and more towards Zalman, perhaps I am getting into this too early and within the next year or two will find something more my liking, and the more affordable option will tide me over.
I think I will call all the stores in my immediate 20 mile vicinity or so, just to make sure they don't have a demo on display.

[yig]

I am reading more and more about this Acer 720p projector.
From what I've gleamed so far it seems to be around $500, am I wrong?

I am reading more at the moment, but I am trying to find out what sort of surface I will need to project on, and it seems to be using the shutter glasses NVIDIA makes, not sure yet.

[yig]

Sorry to stack up posts here.

What retail stores/outlets carry 3d displays? I am having a difficult time by phone finding store employees who seem to know what I am talking about.

I just called Bestbuy and the sales associate thought 3d tech for monitors was "years away" from the public. Good god.


Hm, found this package deal on Tigerdirect.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications ... eviewStart" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Haven't found much on the viewsonic yet, what do you folk think of it?

[cybereality]

It is very doubtful you will find a B & M store with a 3D display model. Some of them may carry 3D monitors but usually not floor models. I know IZ3D had a promotion a few months back where the display was in stores but I am not sure if they are still running that. Mainly you will have to make a decision based on word of mouth and reviews in this forum.

Personally, I've got the Zalman Trimon 22" monitor and I am very happy with it. The polarized glasses are very easy on the eye and the 3D effect is impressive. Ghosting is very low and the colors/brightness seems adequate. The price is also very nice. On the downside, the resolution is halved in 3D mode (although it doesn't look so bad) and the viewing angle is dreadfully small. I imagine the 3D Vision would have the better picture quality (at least in terms of resolution) and also better viewing angles. However I have heard issues with ghosting (on the top of the monitor), random flickering and other such issues. Aside from what I mentioned the Zalman is problem-free (passive solution).

The Acer 720P projector could be another option. Last I heard it was in the $700 range but maybe it is on sale somewhere, I don't know. I don't believe you need any special screen to use it. A white wall should work fine. Of course you need the Nvidia 3D Vision glasses, which are an extra $200 bucks plus any equipment (mounting bracket, long cables, etc.). It would be a huge screen of course. I am looking into that myself actually.

[yig]

It seems more and more I am edging towards the Zalman.
I am still considering either the new 1080p Acer or Alienware with shutter glasses though.

On one hand, I am not going to have another chance to splurge like this for at least a year maybe or two, and I will want to watch Blurays in 3d, Avatar especially.

On the other, the low cost of the Zalman and the lack of ghosting is calling out to me, as I could make use of the cash saved.
I am primarily a gamer and want this for games. World of Warcraft I hear is great, I am a cartoonist and artist and have a love for the visual style, and want nothing more than to
walk around inside this whimsical universe But of course, playing Crysis or Dragonage would rock my socks as well.
Resolution has always been a big deal to me, the difference between a grainy 1024 x 768 turning into a slick clear real time rendered object at 1280 x 1024 blew me away back in the 90s on my CRT monitor. To some people the washed out colors and indistinct crispy lines is not really noticeable, but it really sucks me in.

I figure If I am going to make the plunge for 120hz with some ghosting, then it may as well be in HD. And who knows, I can probably get used to the ghosting and focus on the magic spot, immersion is a wondrous thing. But there are bills to pay in the end, and the Zalman seems to be pretty amazing to people as well. As someone who has never really seen 3d gaming, I bet it will be impressive enough for the price.

This is all so infuriating, I happened to come across quite a bit of money back in 2006, and at the time would have paid up to 5k-10k for a jaw dropping 3d setup, had I known of the existence of this tech. But here I am, back and firmly grounded once again in reality. At least I have my 50" 1080p HD tv and my Apple 30" cinema, it's not like I am deprived. But I knew watching Avatar this was no longer a gimmick, this was the future of gaming. I cannot wait to be front and center.

[koshien]

I have a 22" Zalman Trimon 3D monitor, and even if the effect is pretty good, I would recommend you to buy the Alienware (or Acer) monitor.
There is some ghosting on the Zalman too, and it is not full resolution as the Alienware.
For what concerns the AVATAR-like experience, I suggest you to buy a big Panasonic 3D plasma display, coming out in March-June...that should really be a high-end experience, since plasma technology seems to suit better 3D with shutterglasses.
Probably too pricey though.

http://panasonic.net/avc/viera/3d/

[crim3]

The closest thing to the cinema experience that you can have at home is a dual projection system with polarized filters and glasses. But, surprise, it's also the most expensive by far.

On the normal products spectrum, there isn't one without problems. But the most balanced right now is the Zalman. I have had a z800 HMD for 2 years and also shutter glasses for 1 year. I bought a Zalman a week ago and is the best I have seen by now. I'm extremely happy with it. I've been playing Mirror's edge this days with high settings of separation and convergence and is still comfortable, while the effect is amazing. I never could use that high convergence settings with the shutters and my old CRT. Now I use the z800 only for simulation.

Although it is the most balanced product it doesn't mean it fits your needs. The low resolution can be a problem for you. But, on the other side, the alternative is using shutter glasses, which is also a problem.

[gicko]

hi yig!

THERE IS ONE SUITABLE SOLUTION FOR YOU, as for many many others...
it is not at all difficult to find !!!




ZALMAN+NVIDIA 295+ :polar +FINEPIX REAL 3D (CAMERA)+W7(32 bit)=

[yig]

Um, what? Mind clarifying a bit of that?

The wonderous graphics card and a 3d camera is going to do what to a Zalman display?
My Geforce GTX 260 runs my games from 30-90 fps at 2560 x 1600 on a 30 inch, so I am confident it will do much much better at 22-24 inches. Is there a feature on the card you're recommending?

Bear with me, I am a noob here and your equations stretch my gray matter in slippery tangles.

I am as of today about this close to buying the Zalman, and waiting for something more refined and matured in the fast growing realm of media and technology to come along in a couple years when I am able to splurge again. But I say, do speak up sir!

[Borg_Rootan]

I am reading more and more about this Acer 720p projector.
From what I've gleamed so far it seems to be around $500, am I wrong?

I am reading more at the moment, but I am trying to find out what sort of surface I will need to project on, and it seems to be using the shutter glasses NVIDIA makes, not sure yet.

I'm using Acer H5360 with nVidia 3Dvision. It is absolutly amazing for me. There is verry low ghosting, dramatically lower than on my old Benq PB6210 & 3Dvision, Next positives are HDMI connection, hi lightning lewel and nice colors. I have only two negative aspects. Image isn't much sharp after PJ start, it takes 5min. aproximatelly. My PJ don't remember ECO mod, but this is maybe defect. PJ is now in Acer service with this problem.
You can use every screen surfaces, because PJ don't use polarization for 3D.

[yig]

More and more it seems I am needing to take the economical choice here with the Zalman.

The resolution cut,... Does it really cut the resolution by half? Or just significantly lower?

I normally play on my 30 inch at 2560 x 1600. Putting it and 1280 x 1600, it looks pretty much unplayable to my aesthetic, like a pixelated Unreal or Heretic 2 before I bought a graphics accelerator in the 1990s. Perhaps this faded pixelated game would suck me in with the 3d depth I fantasize about.

Does it really cut it by half?

[yig]

Well guys, I finally had to just take the leap.

I did it,... I ordered the Zalman from Newegg.com.

I hope the immersive depth will blow the resolution issues I cherish out of the water. I used to get an endorphin rush from gaming that would burn days away, but the past three-four years I sort of burned out. It could be from the death of my mother I've thought, or it could be I've gotten bored with gaming. I have just recently begun to get those old thrills back at times,... I have been craving and dreaming about 3d ever since I saw what it could be like. With hope this will light a fire under me to charge into the future with enough liquid funds saved to try an HD solution.

I figure AVATAR would be the only Bluray I would really want in the next year to have in 3d, so for now I'll just stick with my dusty old 1080p tv.
I really was wanting to see games in 120hz though too, but oh well.

I will let you know how I find the Zalman as a "virgin" to 3d gaming. I imagine I will need a lot of advice calibrating and setting it up to.

[soundstorm]

Hi yig!

Glad you decided, im interested in your finds.

I myself have an IZ3D, i am happy with it, but the ghosting is a problem. Im also picky about that, as you seemed to, so I guess you made the right choice.

Good thing about zalman: You can use both the NVidia Driver and the (50$) IZ3D Driver, so if one driver doenst work good, you can try the other one. 8)
Bad thing: 3D only works if the game is put in native resolution of the monitor.
(please correct me if im wrong)

[yig]

I thought the Zalman's came with glasses and it's own drivers.

Will I need to still by Nvidia's? I thought they only had shutter glasses. Or will I be having to buy IZ3D to use 3d on the Zalman?

[soundstorm]

Yes, of course the monitor comes with glasses, but not shutter like Nvidia 3D Vision but polarized. The Nvidia 3D Driver is the same for both solutions (Zalman/3D Vision). You don't have to pay anything for it.
And you don't even have to buy any other driver. IZ3D is just an option for when the NVidia Driver is not working properly. So, you *could" switch to IZ3D Driver for a specific game if it works better than with Nvidia Driver.

You can try anaglyph mode in Iz3d for free to see if the driver works with your games. There's also a 30 day Trial of the various output methods , the one for Zalman would be "Interlaced". (If you wanna try the trial, select "Full install" when in the setup)

Sorry if it sound's like I'm selling Iz3d , it's just that the option to use 2 drivers on 1 3D monitor sounds fantastic for me. (Anyone played GTA IV on IZ3D? Bad framerates... I thought with Nvidia is much better. Confirmations?)

I already have a IZ3D. but I'm a seriously thinking about buying a Zalman too. Because i could use Nvidia Driver too and the monitor is really cheap now..!

[crim3]

Remember that it has its flaws, like the other products. Focus on the good things and enjoy. Surely the future will be brighter, but now is what we have.

I used to get an endorphin rush from gaming that would burn days away, but the past three-four years I sort of burned out. It could be from the death of my mother I've thought, or it could be I've gotten bored with gaming. I have just recently begun to get those old thrills back at times,...

I know what you are talking about. When I was a teenager I used to tell my parents that I will enjoy videogaming for the rest of my life, no matter how old I'd get. But the adult life style seems to be incomptatible with, not gaming, but the enjoyment itself of gaming.
Now, when I finally have a time slot of more than 30 minutes to be in front of my computer I sort of cheer myself up trying to feel that thrill for gaming I used to have. But it's no longer the same, and it's so sad.

[yig]

THE ZALMAN HAS ARRIVED !!!!!!

Now it's time to pop open the box and see how things go. I have not the foggiest idea what to do or how to calibrate, time to roll up the sleeves and learn.

I will be refraining from any judgment of course until I have warmed it up and thoroughly explored my 3d settings.

[Neil]

Just a reminder, you have three driver solutions to choose from. DDD, iZ3D, and NVIDIA!

Regards,
Neil

[Likay]

Just a reminder, you have three driver solutions to choose from. DDD, iZ3D, and NVIDIA!

Regards,
Neil

The overall incredible compability of the zalman is indeed a plus. Stereoscopic player supports it excellently as well.

[yig]

Ok I am already confused.

The monitor is working, I am using it now.
The forceware drivers that came with the display are giving me errors, but I assume they are pretty out of date.

I am using a geforce GTX 260.

I am not sure how to get the 3d working, as the manual suggests I convert my Nvidia control panel to classic view in the view option, and there is no option for that.

Should I be downloading from scratch the updated Nvidia drivers?

Right now I am looking on their site, here so far

http://www.nvidia.com/object/3D_Drivers_Downloads.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Downloading drivers, but they may just be my cards latest.
I am a total noob here, and probably over complicating things. Thanks for any advice, again.

[yig]

I have downloaded their stereo 3d drivers and used the cd that came with the display, so far i cannot seem to see any option for stereo 3d in my nvidia control panel.

[yig]

I am also still using widnows Xp pro, is this going to stop me from using the Zalman?

[yig]

After downloading the iZ3D drivers, it gives me an error saying it doesn't detect an iZ3D monitor. There is a way to have them compatible with the Zalman I assume, I am feeling ignorant, oh so ignorant.

[Neil]

When you install, choose "Full Install".

Then you select "Interlaced" option for output. You may have to swap the eyes in the global profile with Zalman.

Regards,
Neil

[yig]

Ok, I chose full install, it still says it " iz3d display was not found please check connections etc"

When i ran WoW, the iz3d troubleshooting options started and asked me to configure, I could edit the foreground and background sort of, sliding the image itself to the left and right, but saw no discernible 3d illusion.

I am sorry for my noobishness again, but how do I swap eyes in the Zalman global profile?

I was hoping to the powers that be this would be am obvious user friendly experience, ye gads.

I see now how putting on the glasses does half the vertical lines, if I could get a true sense of 3d I would almost find it acceptable, but so far there's not much happening.

[yig]

Oh wow, i found a tst option in the iz3d, clicked dynamic test, I AM GETTING A 3d IMAGE! Now to see what haoppens from here.

[Neil]

This will save you a lot of time!

http://www.mtbs3d.com/cgi-bin/newslette ... ews_id=44/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regards,
Neil

[yig]

OK this is getting interesting.

I am trying to adjust these settings.

I get a wild depth and 3d illusion when things are doubled, as I converge them, this effect seems to go away.

When I have the player a single solid image and the background, it's almost like there is no 3d on anymore, or it's very subtle.

Am I supposed to have a certain amount of doubling and I just have to refocus from foreground to background with my own eyes?

This is very cool so far. I cannot wait to see it optimised.

How much are these iz3d drivers, as it says I am using a trial? I'd really like to see NVIDIA's now too. Wish this was not so frustrating to a newbie.

[yig]

This will save you a lot of time!

http://www.mtbs3d.com/cgi-bin/newslette ... ews_id=44/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regards,
Neil

Oh wow thanks! I think this is the doorway I was looking for! You rock!

[cybereality]

If you are just starting you may wish to use the default profiles for the games with the iz3D driver. Just remember that you must swap the eyes to get it correct. You only have to do this once for each game (once you adjust the settings they stay like that). Look in the hotkeys section of the driver to see how to do this. In general you want to have separation around "35" and convergence really small like "-0.005". This should give you a good starting place for most titles. Just remember that the eyes may be swapped so watch out. The image will looked slightly doubled without wearing the glasses. This is natural. The more doubled they look the greater the 3D effect, but if you are just starting then try to stay conservative and let your eyes adjust.

The Nvidia drivers only work on Vista or Windows7. You can download from their site (the CD that came with the monitor won't work so don't bother). Anyway I find the iz3D driver to be better most of the time.

[yig]

So I will be unable to use the nividia drivers, that sucks.

How much do the iz3d drivers cost?

[yig]

When I select the output mode as interlaced, what is the difference between horizontal optimized, and plain horizontal?

[cybereality]

IZ3D drivers are $50. Use the horizontal optimized. It anti-aliases the lines together for less jagged edges.