I found Samsug's 3D plasmas ! hesitating...

Post by **Okta** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:25 pm

That may be a best case scenario becuase i think the edims have darker lenses than all other glasses too

http://3droundup.com/2009/01/shades-of-glory/#more-123" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The annoying part of that glasses round up is that he doesnt rate ghosting.

edit- just noticed he also shows the samsung shades as lighter than no glasses

Post by **Jahun** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:49 am

Hey thanks for those replies guys!

Nobsi: they do look bad indeed, mine seemed a bit better. But I agree, for many things it doesn't feel that bad at all. The set is definately suitable for my needs. Thanks!

Freke1: I didn't have that cable either, but soldered it. Was pretty easy to do, once you can find the Mini DIN 3 jack. Farnell was where I got it, but that is surely not a standard jack in any shop. The cable and stereo jack were easier. What are you actually doing in that photo btw?

Okta: hmm I got the Nvidia glasses.. but the results of that image are a bit fishy if Samsung seems brighter than no glasses?

Post by **Freke1** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:14 pm

I can't get the glasses to switch on.
I've connected my old computer (XP, 7900GT) to the TV (DVI->HDMI 2) and tried some wired ELSA and wireless Edim glasses. I can see the checkerboard pattern but the glasses stay off.
Tried iZ3D and TriDef drivers - is the some magic button to push?
HELP!!!

Post by **Likay** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:53 pm

Do you have the tv set at 3d-mode? The shutterglasses should be connected to the tv as well.

Post by **Freke1** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:26 pm

Yes, the glasses are connected and the TV is in 3D mode.
Apart from connecting the glasses and TV what are the requirements?
3D vision driver?, dualcore CPU?, newer graphics card?, buttons to hit?
I don't even know if a 3D driver is needed, basicly the manual says: "connect the 2 things and play games in 3D". When I figure it out (with someones help) I will make a step-by-step guide because 3D is like a car that won't start: there's a million things that could be wrong, and if You haven't seen it running then it's frustrating. There should be a guide for each 3D setup here on mtbs3D.

Post by **Likay** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:27 am

Agree. My experience with tv-sets and shutters are equal zero but i know the principle...

In general the tv needs to be fed with a correct signal. If the tv-set handles checkerboard and you feed it with it then it should work (tv splis the channels and feeds the shutters with a correct sync). Are the glasses compatible with the tv?

Post by **Freke1** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:04 am

Good question - I assume they are though I'm not 100% sure.

Post by **Nobsi** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:51 pm

Yes, the glasses are connected and the TV is in 3D mode.
Apart from connecting the glasses and TV what are the requirements?

2 ideas:
- You may check if the TVs 3D mode is set to checkerboard and not to interlaced
- On the Samsung Plasma you must input your video signal at HDMI Port 2, other ports will not work for 3D!

Post by **Freke1** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:10 pm

ok, thanks a lot! Glasses were not working, problem solved

Post by **Okta** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:13 am

Freke1 wrote:ok, thanks a lot! Glasses were not working, problem solved

Ouch, does that include the ones you got for me?

Post by **Freke1** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:13 pm

No, You told me to try them out and I did and they worked 100%.
The wired ELSA and wireless eDim's which I bought for myself don't. Haven't tried my 3D Vision glasses yet but they do look kool.
Got 5 shutter glasses now (not counting Yours)

Anyway checkerboard degrade the 3D image quality too much for close up gaming so I use non-checkerboard 60Hz instead and my old eDims. I'd say a 120Hz 50" monitor would be a perfect monitor. Without ghosting offcause.

Post by **Okta** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:18 pm

How do you get the 60hz to work? It is using a pc dongle like with a crt?

Post by **Freke1** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:26 pm

Yes, using the dongle like with a CRT.

Post by **Ouais** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:40 am

Hello,

I'm also french and I'm also hesitating between the 50B450 and the 50B650.

The 3D is a differentiator for the B450.

Now, I'm trying to figure out if this feature is worth the buy.
If 3D is not a sufficient criteria, I would prefer a 1080p tv with better picture processing (B650).

For those who are already playing games and movies on this set, what are your feedbacks?
Would you advice buying this set for playing 3D games and movies?

Note that I'm a newbie in 3D (only watched U2 3D in theater).

Edit: @all: do you think it's future proof?
I've read that the 3D on PS3 will be only 1080

Thanks,

Ouais

Post by **Freke1** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:34 pm

My very limited experience:
regarding the 3D:
using it as a monitor (80cm away) playing games in 1360*768 checkerboard 3D it looks like 800*600 and it doesn't really look so good. It's not crystal clear big screen 3D.
using it as a 3D TV watching HD 3D videos it is great quality because I sit 1.5 meters away and don't notice the checkerboard.
There is also a lot of ghosting.

regarding the 2D:
using it as a monitor is great, I can see the pixels, but everything is 3 times bigger and bright - love it.
using it as a HD TV I have no experience, but I watched some HD videos and it's fluent, bright and no lag. One review said that this TV looks better than a 1080p LCD so I'm sure it's not bad.

I am very happy with everything except that when sitting close and watching 3D content the quality is a little too much grainy. The ghosting I can live with since this is the only 3D ready TV I could buy. I wouldn't want to swap it for a 2D 1080p TV.

Edit: Not sure about MPEG4 readyness?

Post by **Ouais** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:16 am

Hello,

Thanks for your feedback.

I don't understand when you say 800x600 with the checkerboard.
This pattern is mandatory when playing?
Don't you have it when watching movies?

Is there a difference when playing on a zalman or samsung 120Hz monitor?

In fact, is there someone who could try a samung plasma 3D ready tv and a 3d ready pc monitor?
I would like to know if there's a diff (size of course, but what about the impact on resolution, 3D effects, etc.).

Thanks,

Ouais

Post by **BlackShark** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:23 am

Are you sure the samsung 50B650 is 3D-ready ? I thought Samsung only added the 3D mode to some of the series 4 models.

About future-proofing the tech : the answer is CLEARLY : NO
None of the currently available 3D displays are future proof (including Zalman, DLP checkerboard, dual-projector, nvidia 3d-vision). Next year's 3D transmission standard will use hdmi 1.4 or maybe display port too. We do not know if there will be any legacy screens support. You will very probably need a converter box which you have no guarantee to be available, or at a very high price.

Sony did not announce ANYTHING precise about it's PS3 support.
At the moment, consoles can support checkerboard or interlaced outputs at any resolution only if the game developpers implement these resolutions in their games (like Invincible Tiger). If they do : you got 3D. If they don't : you're screwed.

Post by **Ouais** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:32 am

BlackShark wrote:Are you sure the samsung 50B650 is 3D-ready ? I thought Samsung only added the 3D mode to some of the series 4 models.

About future-proofing the tech : the answer is CLEARLY : NO
None of the currently available 3D displays are future proof (including Zalman, DLP checkerboard, dual-projector, nvidia 3d-vision). Next year's 3D transmission standard will use hdmi 1.4 or maybe display port too. We do not know if there will be any legacy screens support. You will very probably need a converter box which you have no guarantee to be available, or at a very high price.

Sony did not announce ANYTHING precise about it's PS3 support.
At the moment, consoles can support checkerboard or interlaced outputs at any resolution only if the game developpers implement these resolutions in their games (like Invincible Tiger). If they do : you got 3D. If they don't : you're screwed.

Salut blackshark,

No, B650 is not 3D ready.
If it was, I would just buy it without hesitating, cos it's a real killer for a tv.
For the future-proof aspect, I agree, as the standard is not ready yet, no guarantee.

But 1) even when the standard will be ready, there is currently some content compatible with these displays. It will probably be still available for a while (until we'll need to upgrade),
2) with xbox or ps3, it may be an issue (especially if Sony provides only 1080 output for 3D) but with a computer, it may be still a nice alternative (as always) to benefit from 3D contents for a while (increasing thus the time before an upgrade is necessary).

So, I guess you haven't bought this tv at last

Ouais

Post by **Ouais** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:34 am

Ouais wrote:Hello,

Thanks for your feedback.

I don't understand when you say 800x600 with the checkerboard.
This pattern is mandatory when playing?
Don't you have it when watching movies?

Is there a difference when playing on a zalman or samsung 120Hz monitor?

In fact, is there someone who could try a samung plasma 3D ready tv and a 3d ready pc monitor?
I would like to know if there's a diff (size of course, but what about the impact on resolution, 3D effects, etc.).

Thanks,

Ouais

Up.

Thx,

Ouais

Post by **Ouais** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:07 pm

Btw,

Do you know if these tvs are compatible with nvidia 3d vision?

Ouais

Post by **BlackShark** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:15 pm

"it looks 800x600" means you can clearly see the resolution reduction, just set your monitor to that resolution and you'll understand the difference.

These TVs do not support a native 100/120Hz signal, it only accepts 50/60Hz signals. So you have to reduce the resolution to fit a stereo image within the same frame by using the checkerboard pattern.
The checkerboard pattern is mandatory for displaying any 3D content, be it games, movies or TV.

Difference between Zalman or Samsung 120Hz monitor : YES there is a BIG difference
Zalman : passive glasses (no flicker), lowest ghosting of any consumer monitor/TV currently available but "old 5ms" (slow) response time, half resolution and narrow vertical viewing angle
Samsung 120Hz monitor : full resolution, normal viewing angle but more ghosting and uses active glasses (I do notice the flicker even at 120Hz)

Post by **Ouais** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:16 am

Merci Blackshark.

Do you know if there's a big diff with samsung plasma 3d ready tvs?

Ouais

Post by **Freke1** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:59 am

I made a short video of using this monitor:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7EB2TN2B" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (193 Mb) (<-- new link)
should give people thinking about buying this TV an idea.
I can't stream it due to copyright - had my last YouTube account deleted.

Post by **Ouais** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:04 pm

Thanks,

It's downloading.

Ouais

Post by **Ouais** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:32 pm

Freke1 wrote:I made a short video of using this monitor:
http://www.3d.wep.dk/MIS/Samsung_PS50B450.wmv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (rightclick - save) (204 Mb)
should give people thinking about buying this TV an idea.
I can't stream it due to copyright - had my last YouTube account deleted.

Ok, I watched it.
For the 2D, I was already convinced, for the 3D, it's hard to get an idea without the hardware

What is missing is a view of the checkerboard on/off from 2m.
I agree there's a noticeable diff at 20cm

Also, in your conclusions, you say that it's ok for 3tv @ 2m but not ok for games when sitting close.

What about games in 3D @ 2m ?

Ouais

Post by **Ouais** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:13 pm

Ouais wrote: What about games in 3D @ 2m ?

Up.

Could you answer please?

+ I add : Freke1, have you tried with the nvidia glasses?

I promise, I won't bother anymore after, but it's really not clear to me yet.
And I'm about to order a 50B450 or 50B451.

Ouais

Post by **anotherFrench** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:35 pm

about the nvidia glasses I didn't try it but a friend did and it seems to work fine.
only probleme, if you buy the nvidia in the us they come with the proper cable to conect the dongle to the tv but if you buy them in europe (or maybe it's only france?) then you have to buy the cable separatly or you can try to get it from nvidia on the nvidia's forum

Post by **Ouais** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:57 am

anotherFrench wrote:about the nvidia glasses I didn't try it but a friend did and it seems to work fine.
only probleme, if you buy the nvidia in the us they come with the proper cable to conect the dongle to the tv but if you buy them in europe (or maybe it's only france?) then you have to buy the cable separatly or you can try to get it from nvidia on the nvidia's forum

I guess the original dongle is USB?
Is it a problem to connect it to the PC instead of the TV ?

Ouais
ps : ton copain joue en 3D sur sa tv ? tout près ou à 2-3m ? c'est vraiment bien ou pas ?

Post by **Freke1** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:08 am

Hi

I haven't tried with 3D Vision glasses yet since I need a new computer and the VESA 3D sync cable (which Nvidia promised to send but haven't).

I did try a game with checkerboard 3D from 80cm away and it had a "800*600" look to it since the resolution is 1360*768 (TV and game) which is degraded by the checkerboard effect as can be seen in the video (made a new version - same link/name: http://www.3d.wep.dk/MIS/Samsung_PS50B450.wmv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). This is not good for closeup watching but if You are about 2m away it looks bettar since everything smoothes out somewhat. This goes for 3D videos and 3D games.

The ghosting is similar to a CRT monitor when the Contrast and Brightness is lowered from 100 to 50-60. You will see it in high contrast areas.

So to be happy with this 3D TV You have to use it from 2m distance and accept the ghosting (check out the snowboarder ghosting in the new video).

Hopefully there will be some 50" LED FullHD 3D TV's in the future that doesn't use checkerboard 3D and doesn't ghost. That would be perfect for a closeup PC monitor I think.

Post by **Okta** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:52 pm

How does the checkerboard work? Does it cut half the pixels out or stretch the image and half the resolution resulting in lost fov?

Post by **Okta** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:23 pm

Well i finally got the TV. Great tv so far for $1350au. I tried the 3d gaming with iz3d driver and my new revelator glasses (thanks Freke1). Didnt have to much time to play but the ghosting is really bad in a lot of places. I will have to play with the contrast and cell brightness next time and see how much it can be improved. I havent tried the page flipping at 60hz yet through the vga cable.

I will remove my 8800gtx and put my 7950gtx back in when i get around to it for some real gaming (quake 1 baby).

Post by **Freke1** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:53 am

To me it looks like checkerboard just uses every other pixel (like pixel 1, 3, 5... for left eye and pixel 2, 4, 6... for right) for the image and blackening the unused pixel, but that's just like full page flipping (with a checkerboarded image) so why not use a full image? Checkerboard is as unnessesary as interlaced with shutterglasses... makes no sense.

Upgrade Samsung firmware to (uk) link: http://www.samsung.com/uk/support/searc ... ll+results" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
impressive HD videos: https://www.microsoft.com/windows/windo ... wcase.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **cybereality** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:04 am

I believe these sets use checkerboard as a method to save bandwidth. From my understanding they receive a checkerboard encoded source at 60Hz and then display the 3D at 120Hz (but half res each frame). I don't think these TVs could handle the full 120Hz page-flip 3D.

Post by **Okta** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:38 pm

That sucks. They should have allowed a 100hz connection through the vga cable for page flipping.

Post by **anotherFrench** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:57 am

this tv is not compatible with a 120hz input but I saw that many dlp vidéo-projector can upgrade from 60 to 120hz vie a new firmware so I wonder if it could be possible to make a new 120hz for dlp TVs and maybe for this kind of plasmas too ?

Post by **Okta** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:31 pm

Found a decent bandaid for the ghosting. Just crank up the gamma in your video card settings. I was already doing this for my projector to combat the darkness from light loss with active glasses anyway. You lose a lot of nice shadows but the ghosting drops down to a very acceptable level.

Post by **flexy** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:52 pm

I have the ps50a476 plasma, got it the day it was released. Own it for about 2+ year now.

Ghosting is VERY bad, forget gaming. I found 3D on this TV to be a big disappointment, i have the old ELSA as well as the wireless edims.

There is a reason why Samsung doesnt sell this TV anymore and they don't mention their "great 3d plasmas" ANYWHERE anymore...probably because the 3d sucks. (Sorry, i just cant stand ghosting at all. And i think the few people who were interested in getting this for 3D knew about the ghosting issues so noone bought those TVs

As a normal TV for movies the set is great - but i paid premium because of the 3D, i paid like €1400 when i got it and now i dont use the 3D at all.

Post by **Okta** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:03 am

flexy wrote:I have the ps50a476 plasma, got it the day it was released. Own it for about 2+ year now.

Ghosting is VERY bad, forget gaming. I found 3D on this TV to be a big disappointment, i have the old ELSA as well as the wireless edims.

There is a reason why Samsung doesnt sell this TV anymore and they don't mention their "great 3d plasmas" ANYWHERE anymore...probably because the 3d sucks. (Sorry, i just cant stand ghosting at all. And i think the few people who were interested in getting this for 3D knew about the ghosting issues so noone bought those TVs

As a normal TV for movies the set is great - but i paid premium because of the 3D, i paid like €1400 when i got it and now i dont use the 3D at all.

Hey flexy, try setting the gamma for the Samsung to around 1.5 for gaming. It washes out the shadows but it brightens up the scene so you can wahts going on. But most importantly it kills most of teh ghosting down to a very playable level. Im sure with more fiddling i can come up with an even better trade of maybe playing with contrast as well.

Post by **flexy** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:43 pm

might try this trick with the gamma..thanks!

Post by **Freke1** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:51 am

I get around 5% black/ 35% white ghosting after optimizing which is about the same as with a CRT monitor. Wouldn't mind 120Hz pageflip. Is it safe to unlock the refresh rates and give 120Hz a try?