Windows 7 installation...?

[P.C.Zen]

I'm thinking of installing Windows 7 on a second drive in my P.C. for a dual boot.

Should I install Windows 7 or should I should just stick with a second installation of Windows 10?

Are there games that absolutely must have Windows 10 to run?

What do you guys think? Advice would be appreciated.

If I should install Windows 7, where can I get the final fully upgraded version? I was thinking of torrenting but concerned about downloading a copy containing malware.

[Feisty_Fernando]

I'm thinking of installing Windows 7 on a second drive in my P.C. for a dual boot.

Should I install Windows 7 or should I should just stick with a second installation of Windows 10?

Are there games that absolutely must have Windows 10 to run?

What do you guys think? Advice would be appreciated.

If I should install Windows 7, where can I get the final fully upgraded version? I was thinking of torrenting but concerned about downloading a copy containing malware.

There are tiny builds of win7, you can also customize your own install with tools that keep or remove packages and cab files. I got one install down to 3.8gb, it never used more than 2gb of ram while running.

[P.C.Zen]

There are tiny builds of win7, you can also customize your own install with tools that keep or remove packages and cab files. I got one install down to 3.8gb, it never used more than 2gb of ram while running.

Thanks, :0)

I've found "Windows 7 Tiny" a.k.a. "Windows Tiny7". Do you know if there's a better one than that, or one that's specific for gaming?

Maybe there's a website for it?

Edit: Also found "Windows 7 Gaming Edition" but from all the searches I've run it seems it's not worth the risk/time/trouble.

Also, my searches are showing that Windows 7 doesn't support DirectX 12, so won't be compatible with games that are DirectX 12 only...

...at time of writing, according to the lists linked to at the bottom of this post, the following are DirectX 12 only titles, and therefore not Windows 7 compatible:


Call of Duty: Modern Warfare

Crackdown 3

Cyberpunk 2077

Delores: A Thimbleweed Park Mini-Adventure

Forza Horizon 3

Forza Horizon 4

Forza Motorsport 6

Forza Motorsport 7

Gears 5

Gears Tactics

Gears of War 4

Gears of War

Gears of War: Ultimate Edition

Halo 5

Halo Recruit

Halo Wars 2

Infinite Adventures (9 & 12)

Read Dead Redemption 2

Respublica (sic)

Skully

Strange Brigade

VR Paradise

Watch Dogs: Legion

Zombie Army 4: Dead War


https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/List_ ... X_11_games

https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/List_ ... X_12_games


Having looked at all of this stuff I think I'm just going to stick with a Windows 10 install on both of my drives and hop from one to the other if and/or when Windows 10 forces an update.

[Feisty_Fernando]

Cyberpunk - isn't even out yet. As far as futuring Win 7 I don't think DX 12 is in the cards. If you find a build for Win 7 Ultimate, you can cut out all of the crap and just have a small, speedy install.

[P.C.Zen]

Cyberpunk - isn't even out yet. As far as futuring Win 7 I don't think DX 12 is in the cards.

I know, I'm just trying to follow the trend, to make sure my whole 3D setup is sustainable for as long as possible. I thought having a potential Windows 7 installation ready and waiting might be a part of that but I'm just going to maintain two Windows 10 drives so that I can try and have at least one of them working at any given time.

If you find a build for Win 7 Ultimate, you can cut out all of the crap and just have a small, speedy install.

I guess so although, I don't really know how to do that, I'm not very skilled at this stuff. I'd probably be relying on someone else's build and I'd be concerned about stability and potential malware.

That having been said, a faster install would be cool. I'm installing from a loose lap-top drive connected by an adaptor via two external USB ports and it's not the fastest way to do things.

My plan is to jump from one drive to the other if stuff gets corrupted, or if an update's forced upon me.

Seeing the "custom" windows OS's out there gives me hope for the future of this stuff; it makes me imagine a potential custom OS made just for 3D vision.

[Feisty_Fernando]

Seeing the "custom" windows OS's out there gives me hope for the future of this stuff; it makes me imagine a potential custom OS made just for 3D vision.

It's a nice idea but not sure it would be necessary. I'd sooner want to see an open source 3D driver which accommodates all of the legacy hardware like stereo-mirror, dual projector, etc so people can try out more than just 3D Vision monitors. I built a planar 3D display years ago and Wizardry 8 among others looked great with passive glasses. The old iZ3D and Tri-def drivers had many 3D output options and both are now defunct.

RT Seven Lite is the tool for customizing a Win 7 installation size. The options listed through each part explain what they do within the OS and if they're necessary for your particular needs. It didn't take long customizing but rebuilding the image took 30 - 45 mins I think. Then you can burn it or setup a USB stick to install once you plug it in or you can probably just keep the entire OS on the USB stick too if you wanted.

[zaibaker]

Hi, just to add something, forget W7 for VR, some games don't work (The Walking Dead: Saint et Sinners).

[Cowboybob]

I run with 2 X OS's, W10 and W8.1.
Haven't booted W10 in months.

[Feisty_Fernando]

Hi, just to add something, forget W7 for VR, some games don't work (The Walking Dead: Saint et Sinners).

No interest in VR here until the 4th or 5th generation comes around - can't do the magnified optics of the current units. I'm walled out of DX12 but DX11 is pretty enough.

[P.C.Zen]

RT Seven Lite is the tool for customizing a Win 7 installation size. The options listed through each part explain what they do within the OS and if they're necessary for your particular needs. It didn't take long customizing but rebuilding the image took 30 - 45 mins I think. Then you can burn it or setup a USB stick to install once you plug it in or you can probably just keep the entire OS on the USB stick too if you wanted.

Thanks, I might actually take a look at it. I'm using Windows 10 but some older stuff it seems just won't work with it (e.g. I tried loading Call of Juarez Gunslinger last night and it just boots to a black screen. The best info. I can find to get it working is how to use Windows 7 to get it working with XP compatibility mode.

Not that I'm that desperate to play Gunslinger but it seems having separate drives for XP through to Win10 might be good for tackling compatibility issues. I don't think I've ever once had the compatibility settings work for me with any game I've attempted to get running. ((EDIT: I got Call of Juarez: Gunslinger working under Win10 1809 by running it in compatibility mode for Windows 8 and checking the box to disable Full Screen Optimisation.))

I run with 2 X OS's, W10 and W8.1.
Haven't booted W10 in months.

Might actually give 8.1 a try. Tempted to install drives with. XP, 7, 8.1 & Win10 just so that I can run the various games under their native operating systems. Would mean getting two more SSD's, so can't do it until I've paid off my credit card.

Hi, just to add something, forget W7 for VR, some games don't work (The Walking Dead: Saint et Sinners).

No interest in VR here until the 4th or 5th generation comes around - can't do the magnified optics of the current units. I'm walled out of DX12 but DX11 is pretty enough.

VR's a bit of a ways off for me as well. I'm very interested in VR but it still seems like it's got some maturation to go through before I can justify springing for it; still seems like an early adopter type thing. I'm aiming for a CPU, mobo, RAM upgrade sometime around the end of 2022, so maybe sometime after that.

[john105]

I've found "Windows 7 Tiny" a.k.a. "Windows Tiny7". Do you know if there's a better one than that, or one that's specific for gaming?

Maybe there's a website for it?

Edit: Also found "Windows 7 Gaming Edition" but from all the searches I've run it seems it's not worth the risk/time/trouble.

I would recommend against using anything other than the original Windows images. Nobody knows what was done to these custom versions. They can be buggy, unstable or even come with a virus. An easy way to get it is to buy a cheap OEM version for ebay. If you don't want to do it, make sure the checksum of the iso file that you download matches one of the original images, see the fourth post here https://forums.mydigitallife.net/thread ... ent.62340/

Also, my searches are showing that Windows 7 doesn't support DirectX 12, so won't be compatible with games that are DirectX 12 only...

Actually Microsoft added DirectX 12 support to Windows 7 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/ ... windows-7/

Might actually give 8.1 a try.

I wouldn't bother because DirectX 12 wasn't ported to Windows 8.1 like it was to 7. There are already DX12 games that only work on Windows 7 and 10, but not 8/8.1 due to that. Another reason is everybody already gave up on 8.1 because of its tiny market share. NVIDIA and AMD don't even have official drivers for their newer videocards for Windows 8.1 since a few years ago. Even though Windows 7 is older, much bigger market share forces most developers to still care about it.

[P.C.Zen]

I would recommend against using anything other than the original Windows images. Nobody knows what was done to these custom versions. They can be buggy, unstable or even come with a virus. An easy way to get it is to buy a cheap OEM version for ebay. If you don't want to do it, make sure the checksum of the iso file that you download matches one of the original images, see the fourth post here https://forums.mydigitallife.net/thread ... ent.62340/

Thanks, that is one thing I'm concerned about...torrenting something with malware. It's just cash is an issue for me at the moment and I'm not sure I'd be able to find the exact version I want buying an OEM disc but I guess I'd need to run some searches to see.

Actually Microsoft added DirectX 12 support to Windows 7 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/ ... windows-7/

Awesome!! Thanks!!

I wouldn't bother [with Win8.1] because DirectX 12 wasn't ported to Windows 8.1 like it was to 7. There are already DX12 games that only work on Windows 7 and 10, but not 8/8.1 due to that. Another reason is everybody already gave up on 8.1 because of its tiny market share. NVIDIA and AMD don't even have official drivers for their newer videocards for Windows 8.1 since a few years ago. Even though Windows 7 is older, much bigger market share forces most developers to still care about it.

Thanks, so much for responding, it's really appreciated. I guess I'll skip over 8.1. Just wondering if there are games that might require it. I'm thinking of installing an XP drive for older games that only seem to work with XP. Call of Juarez Gunslinger to think of one; It's supposed to work under Windows 7 using its compatibility settings feature but I've never had a game I've tried to get working with the compatibility settings feature actually work.

((EDIT: Apologies, I've been labouring under a misapprehension re. Call of Juarez Gunslinger: It's actually the 4th in the series and was released under Windows 8. I was thrown off track by a Steam forum conversation about getting it to work under Windows 7 using XP compatibility settings. I don't know how I made that mistake; it's possible I was looking at a conversation about an one of the earlier games...

...Having said that, I did get Gunslinger working under Win10 1809 by running it in compatibility mode for Windows 8 and checking the box to disable Full Screen Optimisation.))

[john105]

I guess I'll skip over 8.1. Just wondering if there are games that might require it. I'm thinking of installing an XP drive for older games that only seem to work with XP. Call of Juarez Gunslinger to think of one; It's supposed to work under Windows 7 using its compatibility settings feature but I've never had a game I've tried to get working with the compatibility settings feature actually work.

I don't think there are any games that work on Windows 8.1 but not 7. There are some Windows 10 only games though, mostly by Microsoft. Regarding XP, I was always able to get old games work on Windows 7. Compatibility mode actually helped me a few times. Other times I was able to find some workarounds by googling. But I might've been just lucky. In any case, installing XP on a modern PC would be a big challenge.

[P.C.Zen]

I don't think there are any games that work on Windows 8.1 but not 7. There are some Windows 10 only games though, mostly by Microsoft. Regarding XP, I was always able to get old games work on Windows 7. Compatibility mode actually helped me a few times. Other times I was able to find some workarounds by googling. But I might've been just lucky. In any case, installing XP on a modern PC would be a big challenge.

Thanks, I'll probably try Windows 7 first and then try XP if really necessary.

Why do you say it would be a challenge? Are there hardware conflicts? I thought it would be like installing any other legacy OS?

[john105]

Mostly because of the lack of drivers for XP. Even 7 can be a challenge with the latest hardware, but it's still doable. What is your PC config?

[P.C.Zen]

Mostly because of the lack of drivers for XP. Even 7 can be a challenge with the latest hardware, but it's still doable. What is your PC config?

Asus Z97-WS
i7-4790k
2x 8GB 1600MHz RAM
GTX 970
1TB Samsung 960 Evo NVMe SSD
120GB Kingston "SSDNow"

I've got a 70% overclock on the RAM and 13% on the CPU.

You don't think the later nvidia drivers will work with XP?

P.S. I know, the 970 needs upgrading. I'm looking at moving to an RTX 3070 Super some time after mid 2021, then hoping to do the whole Motherboard, CPU, RAM upgrade at the end of 2022 beginning of 2023, cash permitting (and depending on how well the 4790k hangs in there (CPU AIO fan noise could very well be the deciding factor)).

[john105]

Asus Z97-WS
i7-4790k
2x 8GB 1600MHz RAM
GTX 970
1TB Samsung 960 Evo NVMe SSD
120GB Kingston "SSDNow"

In this case installing Windows 7 will be easy. The only issue might be with your NVMe SSD. Something like https://www.ubackup.com/windows-7/insta ... -4348.html should work. I'm still using a SATA SSD (Samsung 860 PRO) to avoid that hassle.

You don't think the later nvidia drivers will work with XP?

They stopped making XP drivers several years ago, but you might find some kind of modded drivers.

[P.C.Zen]

In this case installing Windows 7 will be easy. The only issue might be with your NVMe SSD. Something like https://www.ubackup.com/windows-7/insta ... -4348.html should work. I'm still using a SATA SSD (Samsung 860 PRO) to avoid that hassle.

That is a pain. It hadn't occurred to me that it wouldn't be compatible. I think I'll stick with installing Win7 to the SSD for the time being and look into getting it working with the NVMe a little later.

They stopped making XP drivers several years ago, but you might find some kind of modded drivers.

I don't really understand this aspect of it. What you mean is I'd need an XP compatible graphics card driver...and Driver 425.31 won't work with XP? Or is it the whole system the XP won't be able to handshake with?

[john105]

What you mean is I'd need an XP compatible graphics card driver...and Driver 425.31 won't work with XP?

Yes, all drivers need to be compatible with a specific OS to work. That's why when you download drivers, you are usually asked what OS you have. The last XP compatible NVIDIA driver was 3xx (not sure about the exact number).

Or is it the whole system the XP won't be able to handshake with?

If it's just the graphics driver that is missing, then no. XP will use its standard VGA driver that supports a very basic set of features. But you might have some other issues, like a BIOS related incompatibility for example. I haven't used XP for many many years, so I don't really know.

[P.C.Zen]

Yes, all drivers need to be compatible with a specific OS to work. That's why when you download drivers, you are usually asked what OS you have. The last XP compatible NVIDIA driver was 3xx (not sure about the exact number).

If it's just the graphics driver that is missing, then no. XP will use its standard VGA driver that supports a very basic set of features. But you might have some other issues, like a BIOS related incompatibility for example. I haven't used XP for many many years, so I don't really know.

Thanks for the help, it's really appreciated. Once I get a properly frozen Win10 installation, I'm going to install Windows 7 on a separate drive and just hope the compatibility mode works. If not I might try an additional XP drive. If the games are native to XP, then hopefully the XP era drivers should be okay for them, so I'm guessing, at that point it just becomes a bios compatibility issue...? ..and whether XP era video drivers have 3D vision support or whether they can be patched. I need to do some googling.

Edit: I just did some googling about XP 3D support and found this from bo3b at the Nvidia forum:

You might be seeing the Quadro support. 3D Vision was supported in XP, but only for Quadro, not Geforce.


The Windows driver model changed completely from XP to Vista, which is what forced NVidia to abandon the earlier 3D support. When they had to rewrite the driver anyway, it made some sense to target only the new model.

For more expensive Quadro/Pro stuff, they didn't have the luxury of abandoning the market, and made it work on XP. Probably could have brought it over to Geforce as well, but as far as I know they never did.

Looks like XP's long gone and super legacy at this point. So...I guess it's best to assume if there are fixes for XP native games (e.g. Call of Juarez Gunslinger) they were fixed under Windows 7? I'm going to try running Juarez under 1803; I got Dead Space 2 working on 1803 where it wouldn't on 1903, although not sure if that was a video driver issue. Didn't check that; just re-installed Win10.

[P.C.Zen]

EDIT: Apologies, I've been labouring under a misapprehension re. Call of Juarez Gunslinger: It's actually the 4th in the series and was released under Windows 8. I was thrown off track by a Steam forum conversation about getting it to work under Windows 7 using XP compatibility settings. I don't know how I made that mistake; it's possible I was looking at a conversation about an one of the earlier games...

...Having said that, I did get Gunslinger working under Win10 1809 by running it in compatibility mode for Windows 8 and checking the box to disable Full Screen Optimisation.