What is the Best VR now, Valve index, Vive Cosmos?

Post by **whyme466** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:19 am

I tried using my Index controllers (purchased appropriate dongles for them) with my G2, but I could never get them to work together - a many step process. None of the on-line video and text guides I found worked with my setup. I really disliked how small the G2’s sweet spot was, and how blurry the rest of the image was, given the hardware requirements to drive the display (very bright display and high res sweet spot, though).

Post by **3DJ** » Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:35 am

I think we can return most online purchases, just rarely for free, especially without a verified reason. We usually have to pay the shipping back costs and sometimes a restocking fee, and the item usually needs to remain unopened. But yea, I'm not gonna argue consumer laws here are any better.

I've watched a few Tyriel Wood videos. The only youtuber I know who has posted several "through the lens" comparisons, but it's really lacking a digital in-game screenshot reference for color accuracy, even if the camera itself introduces some inaccuracy.

Regarding the Quest 2, I am aware they claimed they'd remove the facebook login but my other issue would be image quality. Apparently the only way to output the PC screen into it is by using the Oculus Link cable, which introduces both compression artifacts and latency. Latency wouldn't be bad for watching 3D videos but compression looks horrible, especially in 3D because the artifacts are usually not even synced. It seems a terrible waste of horsepower to render lossless images just for the Oculus Link to butcher it imo.

Regarding the Reverb G2, apparently the v2 doesn't even fix all tracking issues so I'm not sure about the extra $200 for them.
I'm still considering it, but the general wisdom seems to be wait a little longer for the next gen ones, hopefully by the end of the year/early 2022.
It does seem ridiculous it's about the same price as the index controllers + base stations alone, so that made me reconsider.

So in the meantime, I'll keep using 3D Vision, do some more research and keep an eye out for sales and new releases. Just hope VR headsets don't become the next great hardware shortage and prices skyrocket.

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:08 am

Aside from HL:Alyx and a couple of other game, you are not missing much - personally, I just enjoy the immense presence that it brings to pancake games. 3DV is great, however it is on a small screen. I have a 3D projector, and even though it's immensely better than a small monitor, VR is on a completely different level - I just played Chernobylite over the past few days - game is boring, but in VR, it was quite good - it just makes even mediocre games good; god games great, and great games excellent.

If you're happy enough to wait, then brilliant - maybe PiMax will come through with their 12K next year, and you will be the envy of this entire board

Post by **3DNovice** » Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:05 pm

Post by **helifax** » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:38 pm

RAGEdemon wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:08 am Aside from HL:Alyx and a couple of other game, you are not missing much - personally, I just enjoy the immense presence that it brings to pancake games. 3DV is great, however it is on a small screen. I have a 3D projector, and even though it's immensely better than a small monitor, VR is on a completely different level - I just played Chernobylite over the past few days - game is boring, but in VR, it was quite good - it just makes even mediocre games good; god games great, and great games excellent.

If you're happy enough to wait, then brilliant - maybe PiMax will come through with their 12K next year, and you will be the envy of this entire board

There are a lot of awesome games on the Oculus Platform: Like Lone Echo 1/2, Asgard's Wrath just to name a few (working with Revive for SteamVR). Also there are a good bunch on SteamVR as well!

Red Matter, The Room, Walking Dead : Saints and Sinners just to name few

Post by **whyme466** » Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:40 am

Valve may be stepping away from VR - see https://www.kitguru.net/gaming/mustafa ... team-deck/. I hope this is not true - the video DMan11 shared in this discussion thread about Valve VR patents and research was incredible.

With Meta's purchase of so many VR developers, creating a vacuum in the creation of higher resolution PC VR content, HelixVision could become increasingly important - if an alternate solution to new driver limitations could be found.

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:04 am

Interesting, however, based purely on rumour that VR is dying, or not getting a hold. In fact, VR is growing exponentially, according to valve's own hardware surveys...

It's also suspicious that Valve, a multi-billion dollar company with licence to print money, is shying away from development of hardware, which is a drop in the ocean for their development budget/profit - I see no lack of updates to SteamVR.

"Diverting focus to Steam deck" makes no sense as even a couple of independent developers, with virtually no backing or comparative resources, have made a steam deck competitor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo0S2KecJto

Along the same line, Varjo, PiMax, Arpara and others, have already made better headsets than the Q2 with a fraction of Valve'Oculus funding. Oculus, specifically, is focussed on the low affordable end. Everyone else relies on Valve controllers for their high end.

For a company like Valve, it just simply isn't a case that they will need to focus on either A or B - they can have 20 huge projects running concurrently, and it still won't make a dent in their profits - quite the opposite, I might wager.

I would take this rumour with a huge grain of salt - right now, Steam is far and away the biggest market for VR games, with or without Oculus. Investors would shoot the decision makers at valve if they killed an exponentially growing market in favour of yet another handheld console that could go they way of the Steam Machine.

Who knows, maybe I am completely wrong...

Post by **3DNovice** » Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:00 pm

Post by **whyme466** » Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:21 pm

A little reassurance about Valve’s continued interest in emerging tech - see https://www.roadtovr.com/gabe-valve-vr- ... ments/amp/. His BCI focus appears in some of the concepts as an evolutionary layer for modular HMDs in DMan11’s lengthy shared video.

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:20 am

Interestingly, I wrote a letter to GabeN yesterday. I am not saying it had anything to do with nudging this article being published to tackle the rumours, however the timing is a hell of a coincidence. I can put the letter here if anyone is interested... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm just glad the rumours have been laid to rest regarding valve giving up on VR...

Post by **3DNovice** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 12:10 pm

Post by **whyme466** » Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:34 am

Interesting Varjo Aero review from one of the first regular customers to receive production model - see https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualrealit ... _customer/. Note that he feels even a 3090 is not enough for some games/settings. I hope Aero starts using its eye tracking for foveated rendering, like PS VR2 is planning to do.

Post by **3DNovice** » Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:58 am

Post by **BazzaLB** » Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:42 pm

I use VR quite a bit..... but only for sit down sims (Flight, racing, space). Standing up running around got old quickly for me. I have a couple of games that support VR but actually run them in 3D instead as the 3D impression is miles better (GRIP: Combat racing and RedShift for example). I even prefer to run the Vk3DVision games in 3D (SBS on my 3080) rather than VR although I do run DOOM 2016 in VR from time to time. (Thanks Helifax

)

I have to use Motion Smoothing for some of the flight sims (DCS/MSFS 2020 but not needed for IL2). If a headset does not support Motion smoothing (Which the Aero currently does not), then thats a big drawback as far as I am concerned. Plus the Aero seems to suffer the usual distortion associated with aspheric lenses. Some people notice and some don't.

I still am using my Vive Pro 1. I would try a Valve index for its 144hz support to use with fixed Frame rate motion smoothing (@72hz) but they dont sell them directly in Aus (at least not such that you can actually BUY one) and there's no way I would not buy from a proper shop in Aus being as you have a big chance of needing to RMA modern tech items these days.

One youtuber who does flight sims in VR praises every single device he ever tries.. He follows up every few days with "Is this the best head set yet".. rinse repeat.. so far each headset he has tried has been "the best yet" 3 times each despite having declared a different headset as better 3 videos ago. Gave up listening to his drivel tbh (just like I have most youtubers).

Software could have made use of Fixed Foveated rendering for years, but they havent. The software could be miles better than it is without relying on hardware, but it isn't. Various NVidia VR technologies completely ignored etc.

BTW, I wasn't that impressed with Half Life: Alyx. For some reason the game seemed to do some background "load" every 20 meters of movement, completely breaking any immersion. I havent played it for years and only put 4 hours into it and considering I have well over 1000 hours in VR, thats saying something. Maybe they changed it and I should revisit but must admit the enthusiasm has waned. Battling Tie Fighters in Star Wars squadrons.. Takeoff and landing on an aircraft carrier in DCS, sliding sideways in Dirt Rally 2.0, mixing it with other cars at the Nurburgring in AMS2.. along with many other sims all in glorious VR.. yeah, that never gets old.

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:35 pm

3DNovice wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:58 am A very weird peripheral from Microsoft called XRings
https://www.windowscentral.com/new-micr ... controller

It would be awesome if Microsoft got back into gaming peripherals such as keypads and joysticks, their SideWinder products were great.

PSVR CES 2022 presentation
https://www.windowscentral.com/windows- ... -and-psvr2

Thanks for sharing - that hand device is amazing. So much innovation in VR right now - it's like the wild west of the 90s PC market

@BazzaLB

I hear what you say man. A couple of points I might add however:

VR market is growing so quickly that calling every new headset every few months "the best so far" can be the truth. You're talking about Seb of MRTV, right?

I don't believe he has the intent to deceive. Every headset has its pros and cons. None of them can be said to be absolutely the best in all aspects, including price. I believe what he means is that the headsets he reviews are the best at what they purport to do for that specific place in time.

I have a 3DV projector setup. However, even that with a proper 3DV fix with all shaders and shadows working, I find it pales in comparison to playing an FPS in VR even without any shaders and shadows working - the immersion in VR is just jaw dropping for me personally. I am really grateful to our shaderhackers for VR VK3D and Helixmod (and VorpX).

I never had issues with Alyx - still the best proper VR game I have ever played. Are you sure you didn't have any windows "tweaks" such as disabling auto resolution, or disabling superfetch or forcing/disabling some weird timers in windows/bios?

Generaly, I think a debate pitting 3DV vs VR is pointless - they are both just means to an end goal for us all, which is better immersion. Some people will prefer one, and some the other

Post by **BazzaLB** » Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:23 pm

RAGEdemon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:35 pm
@BazzaLB

I hear what you say man. A couple of points I might add however:

VR market is growing so quickly that calling every new headset every few months "the best so far" can be the truth. You're talking about Seb of MRTV, right?
I don't believe he has the intent to deceive. Every headset has its pros and cons. None of them can be said to be absolutely the best in all aspects, including price. I believe what he means is that the headsets he reviews are the best at what they purport to do for that specific place in time.

Guy I was talking about is actually someone who plays Exclusively Flight Sims in VR.. Well, MSFS 2020 mostly these days. Its not like he claims the latest is the best, that would be understandable. No, he says one week G2 is hands down the best, then next week Pimax 8KX, then the week after , G2 again, then Pimax, then Varjo Aero , then G2 again, then Aero.. and so on.

RAGEdemon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:35 pm I have a 3DV projector setup. However, even that with a proper 3DV fix with all shaders and shadows working, I find it pales in comparison to playing an FPS in VR even without any shaders and shadows working - the immersion in VR is just jaw dropping for me personally. I am really grateful to our shaderhackers for VR VK3D and Helixmod (and VorpX).

Oh, don't get me wrong. Majority of my gaming time is in VR by far, but its sit down Simulators these days. I spent loads of time in Skyrim VR too that looks amazing. I played loads of other VR titles that would not be suited for anything but VR. VR when its done right is fantastic, but some games its just bolted on and not worth the bother and those quite often are much better in simple 3DV (GRIP: Combat Racing and Redout being the perfect examples where ramping up the 3D depth trumps VR). I preferred Myst in 3DV than VR as well. Bo3b was kind enough to ask me to help test HelixVision in the early days so I played quite a bit of 3DV in VR (Even enjoyed some 3rd person stuff), but my VR headset and 3DV compatible graphics card are on two separate machines now so don't fire up HelixVision these days.

Bear in mind though I have a Vive Pro which means I have Vive wands which are absolutely god awful controllers. Hence, in my sims I use mouse and FFB joystick mostly. (Although for x-plane 11 you need the wands to flick the various switches). Playing simulators in VR.. its hard to beat. Like I say, Star Wars squadrons in VR is great fun. Funny enough, I prefer to play Doom 2016 in VR but Wolfenstein II: Colossus in 3DV (yeah, even I think thats weird). I also play a lot of Pinball in VR (Zaccaria, Visual Pinball X, Future Pinball BAM etc).

RAGEdemon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:35 pm I never had issues with Alyx - still the best proper VR game I have ever played. Are you sure you didn't have any windows "tweaks" such as disabling auto resolution, or disabling superfetch or forcing/disabling some weird timers in windows/bios?

Generaly, I think a debate pitting 3DV vs VR is pointless - they are both just means to an end goal for us all, which is better immersion. Some people will prefer one, and some the other

I wasnt running any special "tweaks" or anything for HL:A but I must admit its been years since I tried it. I happily play BOTH VR and 3DV (More VR than 3DV). I have 2 machines. One is an i7 7700K/1080ti just for 3DTV and the other is my main gaming machine for VR (or Vk3DVision) which has a 11900K/3080 with switch box for sound and monitor (Both connected to the same 3DTV and Surround Sound System).

Post by **whyme466** » Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:26 am

I have been playing combat intensive From Other Suns recently with my Vive Pro 2 (set on Ultra resolution), giving my wired PC connection a more rigorous test. I really like how VR Wire II and the software turns counter work together (see https://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... 37#p182137), providing a VR environment better than wireless (with wired battery)! Note that VR Wire II works with any wired headset - a very clever design.

Post by **3DNovice** » Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:36 am

Post by **3DNovice** » Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:51 am

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:06 pm

3DNovice wrote:
lol, maybe this tech will make it's way to VR

https://hothardware.com/news/japanese-p ... -tv-screen

LOL

Post by **albert90** » Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:34 am

Thank you much for clearing the difference between the Valve Index and Vive Cosmos. I was puzzled before about what to purchase between these two best VR headsets but now everything is cleared. I have recently purchased a new wifi extender based on the recommendation of https://10beasts.com/best-smartwatches-men/ article. Hopefully, a combination of these new products would prove to be an excellent choice.

Post by **whyme466** » Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:02 pm

Received and briefly test my Varjo Aero HMD. In my opinion, with a 3080Ti, the Aero is brighter and has better image quality (slight geometric distortion at far edges of FOV), but less vibrant color display than Vive Pro 2. My biggest issue with the Aero is motion stuttering during gaming - and changing Aero resolution does not improve motion artifacts enough. When Aero is adjusted to provide similar apparent resolution as VP2, the Vive Pro 2 has much smoother in-game motion than the Aero. The Aero probably needs the next gen GPU to consistently show its strengths - or improved motion compensation software.

Post by **helifax** » Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:11 am

whyme466 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:02 pm Received and briefly test my Varjo Aero HMD. In my opinion, with a 3080Ti, the Aero is brighter and has better image quality (slight geometric distortion at far edges of FOV), but less vibrant color display than Vive Pro 2. My biggest issue with the Aero is motion stuttering during gaming - and changing Aero resolution does not improve motion artifacts enough. When Aero is adjusted to provide similar apparent resolution as VP2, the Vive Pro 2 has much smoother in-game motion than the Aero. The Aero probably needs the next gen GPU to consistently show its strengths - or improved motion compensation software.

Very interesting! So did you find the Vive Pro 2 better than the Varjo Aero? How is the FOV? The lenses are on par with Vive Pro 1 modded? Interesting that Vive Pro 2 has better colours - but it has one of the best LCDs in a VR headset on the market

If I could put from Aspherical Lenses in the Pro 2.. oh man

I am curious as I was looking at the Aero as well

I know, I know my 2080Ti will struggle

) but I think I am waiting for the RTX 4000 series as I normally skip one generation of GPUs.

Post by **BazzaLB** » Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:22 am

whyme466 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:02 pm Received and briefly test my Varjo Aero HMD. In my opinion, with a 3080Ti, the Aero is brighter and has better image quality (slight geometric distortion at far edges of FOV), but less vibrant color display than Vive Pro 2. My biggest issue with the Aero is motion stuttering during gaming - and changing Aero resolution does not improve motion artifacts enough. When Aero is adjusted to provide similar apparent resolution as VP2, the Vive Pro 2 has much smoother in-game motion than the Aero. The Aero probably needs the next gen GPU to consistently show its strengths - or improved motion compensation software.

How is the Vive Pro 2's "motion smoothing" now? Can you set the frame rate to fixed fraction of HMD refresh? eg 22.5, 30, 45 fps etc? I use this for my flight sims on my Vive Pro 1.

Post by **whyme466** » Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:24 am

@Helifax - with a 3080Ti GPU, I prefer my Vive Pro 2 over the Varjo Aero (more than twice VP2's cost). The clarity of the Aero lens matches that of the lens mod for the Vive Pro - superb clarity with no Fresnel haze. However, the Aero has a geometric distortion at the horizontal edges of the FOV that does not exist in the Vive Pro lens mod - or in the Vive Pro 2. The Aero's FOV is OK, but NPC and environmental motion issues are my primary objection. By the way, I preferred the lens modified Vive Pro over the Vive Pro 2 until I was able to get a 3080Ti to drive the Vive Pro 2 (more consistent higher resolution to offset the slight loss in visual clarity). I am using Bluetooth headphones with Aero, and the sound is being attenuated too much when running SteamVR - no problem with VP2 sound, though.

@BazzaLB - the VP2's motion smoothing has definitely evolved since its first release, improving motion when active (unlike the current state of Aero motion compensation). I cannot comment about fractional HMD refresh rates - I adjust game settings to obtain acceptable "motion smoothing" for me. When comparing various HMDs, I do not change game settings, however.

I used Lone Echo, max graphics settings (High) for this evaluation. After settling upon VP2, I started Lone Echo 2. It appears that Lone Echo 2 optimization for game play is NOT the same as the original Lone Echo. If I try to increase the game resolution beyond the default Low graphics settings, the game crashes within minutes (it does NOT just stutter, as other games typically do).

Post by **helifax** » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:36 am

whyme466 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:24 am @Helifax - with a 3080Ti GPU, I prefer my Vive Pro 2 over the Varjo Aero (more than twice VP2's cost). The clarity of the Aero lens matches that of the lens mod for the Vive Pro - superb clarity with no Fresnel haze. However, the Aero has a geometric distortion at the horizontal edges of the FOV that does not exist in the Vive Pro lens mod - or in the Vive Pro 2. The Aero's FOV is OK, but NPC and environmental motion issues are my primary objection. By the way, I preferred the lens modified Vive Pro over the Vive Pro 2 until I was able to get a 3080Ti to drive the Vive Pro 2 (more consistent higher resolution to offset the slight loss in visual clarity). I am using Bluetooth headphones with Aero, and the sound is being attenuated too much when running SteamVR - no problem with VP2 sound, though.

@BazzaLB - the VP2's motion smoothing has definitely evolved since its first release, improving motion when active (unlike the current state of Aero motion compensation). I cannot comment about fractional HMD refresh rates - I adjust game settings to obtain acceptable "motion smoothing" for me. When comparing various HMDs, I do not change game settings, however.

I used Lone Echo, max graphics settings (High) for this evaluation. After settling upon VP2, I started Lone Echo 2. It appears that Lone Echo 2 optimization for game play is NOT the same as the original Lone Echo. If I try to increase the game resolution beyond the default Low graphics settings, the game crashes within minutes (it does NOT just stutter, as other games typically do).

Cool! Thanks for the clarification! Yes, I agree the VP2 definitely benefits from a better GPU

Even on a 2080Ti I can clearly see it's better in terms of screen clarity (I also Super sample to 3416x3416 which should be the 2240 x 1.4 for SteamVR

) ) Ofc the framerate drops and I sometimes struggle to keep 45 FPS in some games, but oh man does it look awesome!

Post by **whyme466** » Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:01 am

Have you tried Lone Echo 2 yet, Helifax? Unfortunately, it looks like it may not be getting much dev support after its much delayed launch. Superb VR environments, but I have never had such catastrophic VR game crashes…

Post by **helifax** » Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:24 am

whyme466 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:01 am Have you tried Lone Echo 2 yet, Helifax? Unfortunately, it looks like it may not be getting much dev support after its much delayed launch. Superb VR environments, but I have never had such catastrophic VR game crashes…

Yes, I finished it on the VP2

at 45FPS

I've experienced only a few crashes. Annoying yes, but it works fine on the Quest 2 so this means I think Revive has some issues

Post by **3DNovice** » Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:53 am

Post by **helifax** » Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:24 pm

I really want to Play Horizon Call of the Mountain in VR...just because well you know... it's Horizon

) And being the kid that I am (no matter how old you get man.. I still manage to find that 16 year old enthusiasm ^_^)...
I'll probably be the sucker that spends that much money on the PSVR2 headset just for ONE game ^_^

There.... I said it

)

Post by **whyme466** » Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:43 pm

A number of PSVR2 games look interesting - making it worth the purchase, in my opinion. I am eager to see how Sony’s approach to minimizing Fresnel god rays will perform (see https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/02/ ... vr2/?amp=1), and how much performance improvement the PSVR2 eye-tracking will yield.

Post by **3DNovice** » Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:41 am

Post by **3DNovice** » Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:45 am

Post by **whyme466** » Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:20 am

Interesting regular glasses-size HMD prototype from Stanford University and NVidia - see https://www.pcgamer.com/researchers-fin ... sses-size/. The “ribbon” connection and other issues may take years to resolve, but the prototype has a great form factor.

Post by **3DNovice** » Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:00 pm

Post by **whyme466** » Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:41 am

On the software side of VR - NVidia is advocating for a universal scene description protocol for the “metaverse”, like HTML for the web (sounds like a good idea). See https://www.roadtovr.com/nvidia-usd-htm ... oundation/.

Post by **aofelix** » Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:04 am

I recently sold my Index. I think the entire VR subspace is really lagging behind tech wise.

Valve are selling a very old headset for full RRP.
Oculus are now holding back their headsets to hit the mass market with a 299/399 price bracket.
The enthusiast headsets (varjo) are grossly overpriced, under supported and lacking in simple features (e.g. audio).

The only headset I see as at all enticing is the PSVR2 which is ironic given the PSVR1 IMO is the worst of all the headsets. I think its addressing a lot of issues including software, OLED etc.

Post by **3DNovice** » Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:19 am

Post by **helifax** » Sat Nov 05, 2022 5:38 pm

Is the Vive Pro 3 out yet? ^_^. In all honestly, having a huge blast with the Vive Pro 2 and the RTX 4090. I can actually USE that 5K resolution in VR now ^_^ (a lot more actually

)

Post by **3DNovice** » Sat Nov 05, 2022 6:39 pm