Meant to be Seen

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3743&p=6

ATI plans to update its Direct3D driver to enable thirdf party middleware vendors, such as iZ3D, to output stereo L/R images at 120 Hz (60 Hz per eye) monitors. This means that select video games as well as forthcoming Blu-ray 3D movies will work in stereo 3D mode, however, ATI’s solution will not be able to force all video games to work in stereo mode, unlike Nvidia’s 3D Vision technology.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/disp ... Nears.html

Next month!!! FINALLLLLLLLLY!!!!!!!!!!!

I dont get it

ATI plans to update its Direct3D driver to enable thirdf party middleware vendors, such as iZ3D, to output stereo L/R images at 120 Hz (60 Hz per eye) monitors. This means that select video games as well as forthcoming Blu-ray 3D movies will work in stereo 3D mode, however, ATI’s solution will not be able to force all video games to work in stereo mode, unlike Nvidia’s 3D Vision technology.

Nvidia 3d-vision technology supports all video games to work in 3d? Someone received improper info...
However i welcome the more open competition.

Soo, does it work now even with unstable framerate? Thinking about buying a Headplay, anyone having experience with those and iz3d drivers?

And a bit offtopic but any feedback on FOV and distortion near borders of a headplay comared to a vr920?

Segya wrote:Soo, does it work now even with unstable framerate? Thinking about buying a Headplay, anyone having experience with those and iz3d drivers?

And a bit offtopic but any feedback on FOV and distortion near borders of a headplay comared to a vr920?

Headplay is easily the best bang for buck on the market. But that isnt saying much. I had one about a year ago and sold it because it hurt my eyes ( and i dont wear any prescrition glasses.) and you are constantly adjusting the the thing to keep both eyes in view of each display.

It support frame sequential 3d. Meaning XP 7xxx drivers work fine and iz3d will go out out sync below 60fps and swap eyes on you. There is no ghosting or flicker with their extremely clever single display solution.

I find it hard to play a game on for a long period in dark scenes too.

Hello, new member here.

I'm getting the e-dimensional wireless glasses (hasn't arrived yet) because I am very, very sick of my anaglyph glasses I've been using for some time. Not only because of the colored filters which, by the way are bad even for anaglyphs. I think the filters are a bit off because the 3D-effect is so much worse with my glasses than my father's Friday the 13th 3D-glasses and sometimes does not filter out all that it should.
Anyway, while scouting out ebay for new ones, I found a pair of cheap e-dimensional which looked a bit more advanced. Did some research.. and that got me here!

Few questions.
1. Latest iZ3D version has removed shutter support. Which build is the best one for shutters? I'm currently on 1.10rc1. (couldn't find 1.10 final)
2. When I have received my e-dims and my trial is over and since iZ3D no longer supports shutter, can I still buy a license even though the current version have removed the output? And use with the old version which does have the shutter outputs?
3. I read in a topic by iondrive regarding BLC mode which works with some models of the dongle that comes with the glasses that shutter mode requires high fps count in games. 60 fps to keep sync if I understood him right. What are my options if I can't reach that high? Now when I play anaglyph I go down to around 20 or 30 fps max.. new or old game, low or high resolution.
4. How bad is the performance hit in shutter mode compared to anaglyph? Is it worse? (I don't want to try it out myself and start my trial early before I have the glasses) What about interlaced which I also heard about? And does it also require high fps count to keep sync?
5. If there's no way to use my e-dimensionals for gaming without reaching high fps. Would you recommend a couple of older games which could work with a 9400 nvidia card?
6. If I use say 1280x1024@60Hz as my desktop size on my CRT (because 60 Hz is the most with that resolution) how can I ensure that games does not keep that low refresh rate when I select say 800x600 in game but instead goes with 100 or 120 Hz?


I hope I can get at least some of these questions answered. Thanks in advance.

You will probably have the best luck if you use the interlaced mode (which is supported on the newest iz3d driver). That way you will have no problems with sync. I believe the e-dimensional dongle has a "line-blanking" mode, which is used in conjunction with the interlaced driver.

Burbruee wrote:Hello, new member here.

Hello and welcome!

Burbruee wrote:1. Latest iZ3D version has removed shutter support. Which build is the best one for shutters? I'm currently on 1.10rc1. (couldn't find 1.10 final)

The shuttermodes that worked to some degree with e-d's were the simple shutter mode where the views indeed swaps if gamefps goes too low. The framemarked blc-mode is said to be supported by later e-d-dongles and that mode should keep the frames in sync even when you've got fpsdrops. You can get the final release of 1.10 HERE. The best as Cybereality says is using the interleaved option in the iz3d driver together with the e-d-activator even if the resolution is cut in half.

Burbruee wrote:2. When I have received my e-dims and my trial is over and since iZ3D no longer supports shutter, can I still buy a license even though the current version have removed the output? And use with the old version which does have the shutter outputs?

I'm not sure of this since the license system recently has changed. Don't know if the new system is backwards compatible. I do know i had to change the license when they added support for all outputs in one single license. Welder on iz3d handles questions and queries about licensesystem and should be able to answer this.

Burbruee wrote:3. I read in a topic by iondrive regarding BLC mode which works with some models of the dongle that comes with the glasses that shutter mode requires high fps count in games. 60 fps to keep sync if I understood him right. What are my options if I can't reach that high? Now when I play anaglyph I go down to around 20 or 30 fps max.. new or old game, low or high resolution.

If your dongle supports blc the dongle should also be able to keep sync even if fps drops. Interleaved+e-d-activator also keeps perfect sync but with halved resolution.

Burbruee wrote:4. How bad is the performance hit in shutter mode compared to anaglyph? Is it worse? (I don't want to try it out myself and start my trial early before I have the glasses) What about interlaced which I also heard about? And does it also require high fps count to keep sync?

Performancedrops should be the same. If you use interleaved output in combination with the e-d-activator you'll have perfect sync but with half resolution. This seems to be the most foolproof option, at least for a start.

Burbruee wrote:5. If there's no way to use my e-dimensionals for gaming without reaching high fps. Would you recommend a couple of older games which could work with a 9400 nvidia card?

See above

Burbruee wrote:6. If I use say 1280x1024@60Hz as my desktop size on my CRT (because 60 Hz is the most with that resolution) how can I ensure that games does not keep that low refresh rate when I select say 800x600 in game but instead goes with 100 or 120 Hz?

I'm not entirely sure what happens in this case. You have to make some experiements and check both gamedisplayoptions as well as e-d-activator-options and see what happens. I used my old edims on a compatible old-school system (winxp, 7900gt etc...)

Good luck!

Thanks for the quick answers, it definitely helped clear some things up.

You might even be able to do over-under mode and use a 3D dongle with "sync-doubling" to get to higher refresh rates. I did this with the Another Eye 2000 glasses, but there may be others that support this. You will still only get half resolution (image quality should be identical to interlaced) however you will get double the refresh rate. So if you would normally only output at 1280x1024@60Hz, you can now reach the same resolution but at 120Hz. You can even go further if your monitor supports it (I was able to reach 170Hz one time, basically no flicker at all).

cybereality wrote:You might even be able to do over-under mode and use a 3D dongle with "sync-doubling" to get to higher refresh rates. I did this with the Another Eye 2000 glasses, but there may be others that support this. You will still only get half resolution (image quality should be identical to interlaced) however you will get double the refresh rate. So if you would normally only output at 1280x1024@60Hz, you can now reach the same resolution but at 120Hz. You can even go further if your monitor supports it (I was able to reach 170Hz one time, basically no flicker at all).

Interesting.. I'll check if my dongle supports that when I get it. All I know now is that it has the E-D logo on it.

Burbruee wrote: Interesting.. I'll check if my dongle supports that when I get it. All I know now is that it has the E-D logo on it.

Well, I don't think E-D supports "sync-double" but they should support "line-blanking" which is needed for interlaced mode.

It supports it, the options in the E-D Activator are: Interleaved, Over/Under, Page Flip.
That's the mode that I primarily use, and my dongle is quite old model (doesn't support any *colored*-line-coding).
A proper description of that mode can be found here.

cybereality wrote:You will still only get half resolution (image quality should be identical to interlaced) however you will get double the refresh rate. So if you would normally only output at 1280x1024@60Hz, you can now reach the same resolution but at 120Hz. You can even go further if your monitor supports it (I was able to reach 170Hz one time, basically no flicker at all).

You're not exactly right. The image quality is better than interlaced/interleaved, because there are no black rows between the picture-data rows (like there are with interlaced/interleaved mode), now the picture-data rows themselves are just thicker (double hight), and therefore, the image is brighter. Some artifacts caused by the image scaling done by the driver (iZ3D) could be visible though, unlike with interlaced/interleaved.

When you output at 1280x1024@60Hz, the monitor actually gets 1280x512@120Hz, so it's not the same resolution. But yes, as far as your PC can handle high resolutions in 3D (performance-wise), the monitor will not be the limit, the reason for this being that the limiting factor here is the vertical resolution*refreshrate, which in this case is low (actually it's half ). As I mentioned in another thread, I game at 1600x1200@75Hz (which is actually seen by the monitor as 1600x600@150Hz, my CRT has a limit of 160Hz vertical frequency). In theory I could go all the way up to 2048x1536@75Hz (the monitor will get 2048x768@150Hz), and I tried it - it works, but my current hardware can't keep up with that rez (3MP) in 3D.

Heh!

So what are the options to get at least 120hz , non squashed, interleaved , etc??

I want to build an IR emitter , together with a sync box, that drives the emitter directly off the VGA cable.

Iz3d can't show > 120hz ???

I saw iz3d has some smooth FPS toggle now, meaning no eyeflip occurs if VSYNC out of reach .

If I understand your question correctly, you ask about the options to get full-rez per eye shutter mode, is that correct? Well, with iZ3D it's only currently possible in the "120Hz 3D Devices" output, only on AMD/ATI 5000 and 6000 cards (this no eye-swapping mode), on other cards a different mode is engaged, which occasionally swaps views (because it doesn't use the ATI Quad Buffer), but it's still better than the old "simple shutter" output. I have no idea if it works with refreshrates different form 120Hz, you can ask the only user I know to have successfully used that mode with his CRT monitor - TheOracle over at the iZ3D forum, which I think also has an account on this forum.

Why would you need 200Hz btw? If it's for the Sony FW900 you mentioned - it also supports only up to 160Hz (specs). And even if it worked, you'd be limited by that 121kHz FBT/LOPT to resolutions up to 960x600, if not even lower, like 920x576 .

@Zerofool: Yes, now that I think about it you are correct.

Thx for your input, ill borrow a HD5850. 1280*800 would be enough for me, but I want it as it is, no scaling. Pretty sure it can do 160hz at 800p ???
I want no extra orbital resolutions.

A: Based on the size and density of cones in the fovea centralis (the highest resolution area of the retina), the smallest resolvable detail humans with 20/20 vision can generally see under optimal conditions is contained within approximately 1 arc-minute of angle, or 1/60th of one degree. Any details smaller than that simply blend together. Think of it as biological anti-aliasing.

From this data, a little trigonometry provides us with a simple rule of thumb: The viewing distance at which those of us with 20/20 vision maximize natural blending without any perceived loss of resolution = Pixel Width / .0003. This equates to 1 meter of distance for every .3 millimeters of pixel offset (pitch); and this is true for any picture-element-based display (including printing). Beyond this distance we actually begin to throw away display resolution.

This is another reason why 1280x720 or even 800x600 can look better than we think it should. Namely, picture quality is not determined by resolution alone - for when viewed from the appropriate distance, no individual pixels will be perceived at all.

Of course, in practice human acuity varies widely from this theoretical high mark, especially in the darker environments in which we tend to watch projected images (acuity decreases as pupil diameter increases). Subsequently, at the other end of the spectrum we have observed that pixels begin to adequately blend approximately one screen width distant from the DepthQ® HDs3D-1 Projector.

You're (both) welcome .
That's interesting, but it appears that I'm spoiled and I can notice imperfections on even higher resolutions (even with AA), so I guess it's very individual thing, I guess that's one of the things that separate videophiles from the rest of the (normal) people .
Anyway, the simple math tells me that for 1280x800 you'll have to settle with only 144Hz, if not 140Hz (test it with PowerStrip), and I hope that your CRT doesn't get as blurry in high refreshrate modes, as mine does .
Refreshrate (in Hz) = horizontal frequency (that thing measured in kHz, but to do the math, we need to have identical units, in your case - 121000 Hz) / (vertical resolution*1.05) [short info].

Ah. Sounds like I won't bother but settle on that damn 1.5 msec of hold time per 120.

Getting a radeon would involve some slippery deal with my brother too, I'll pass .

Maybe it'd even sync up with 3d vision without the emitter hack, and this G92b SLI really works like a charm... (maybe because there are some 3d vision notebooks with g92b sli , rebadging can be fun, huh)

I got my glasses now. (christmas gift)



They appear to be working fine, I've already played some games with it. I even performed better with them on than usual without glasses. Dongle doesn't appear to accept BLC mode. Needs manual activation from E-D.exe.

There is one problem however, not really related to the glasses themselves. I'm running Windows 7, and my graphics card is Nvidia ION (9400) with the latest driers installed. However.. when I put up my old CRT (Compaq MV720 17") the highest refresh rate I could choose in any resolution including 800x600 was 85 Hz. I know for a fact it supports at least 100 Hz at 800x600, not sure if that includes 1024x768. I can't select it.

I also have a Samsung monitor externally connected to a netbook. It can do 120 Hz fine even at 1024x768 , but when I connect it to my computer.. locked at 85 Hz.

Not sure if it's related to
a) operating system (XP vs Windows 7)
b) drivers or
c) dvi-vga adapter in my computer compared to direct vga connection on the netbook output.

85 Hz is fine I guess. That's the lowest acceptable refreshrate I think. Anything below that gives too much flicker. Still, you want to take advantage of 100/120 Hz if you can.

EDIT: Disregard that. Just tried Over/Under mode and it works great! Will use that for games. But there is one problem.. Games that use a cursor (e.g strategy games like C&C Generals) the cursor is way off. There's no way of playing the game when I have to click the cursor half a screen above where I actually want to go.. Is there a way to fix this or do I have to play theses games in Interlace with lower refresh rate?

Burbruee wrote:I got my glasses now. (christmas gift)

There is one problem however, not really related to the glasses themselves. I'm running Windows 7, and my graphics card is Nvidia ION (9400) with the latest driers installed. However.. when I put up my old CRT (Compaq MV720 17") the highest refresh rate I could choose in any resolution including 800x600 was 85 Hz. I know for a fact it supports at least 100 Hz at 800x600, not sure if that includes 1024x768. I can't select it.

I also have a Samsung monitor externally connected to a netbook. It can do 120 Hz fine even at 1024x768 , but when I connect it to my computer.. locked at 85 Hz.

Not sure if it's related to
a) operating system (XP vs Windows 7)
b) drivers or
c) dvi-vga adapter in my computer compared to direct vga connection on the netbook output.

85 Hz is fine I guess. That's the lowest acceptable refreshrate I think. Anything below that gives too much flicker. Still, you want to take advantage of 100/120 Hz if you can.

That's normal, there are obviously no such profiles in the monitor driver, you have to make custom modes, through PowerStrip for example.

Burbruee wrote:EDIT: Disregard that. Just tried Over/Under mode and it works great! Will use that for games. But there is one problem.. Games that use a cursor (e.g strategy games like C&C Generals) the cursor is way off. There's no way of playing the game when I have to click the cursor half a screen above where I actually want to go.. Is there a way to fix this or do I have to play theses games in Interlace with lower refresh rate?

Nope, there's no fix for that. iZ3D did enable a 3D cursor in this mode (visible in both views, now working properly) in addition to the incorrect one, but I think it doesn't works with all games. So yes, for such games you'll have to use interlaced, or try the normal 120Hz shutter mode (with Radeon 5/6xxx card).

Hm, I started having some problems recently.
Sometimes when I start certain games, with iZ3D on interlaced and ED Activator on the same, as soon as I start the game my CRT goes blank (out of range) I can hear the sound from the game and manage to quit blindly. I'm back at the desktop but still no picture..
Other times it's the opposite, desktop is fine and I start the game and it's fine.. but then I exit back to the desktop and the monitor goes out of range. I restart my computer (and at the POST/bootup process it's flickering like crazy even without glasses) once it reaches the login screen it goes out of range again.

Solution: Turn the computer off. Wait 15 seconds, then turn it back on again. No flicker and it won't go out of range at the login screen/desktop.

I don't understand how or why it would go out of range.. games run at the same resolution and refresh rate as the desktop and it's interlaced.. not like I'm doing over/under which would double the refresh..

I don't think it's related to iZ3D but either the dongle or the ED Activator. If I start games with iZ3D active but without the activator everything is fine.

I use 1600x1200@85Hz both on the desktop and in all games.