Cyberith Virtualizer ODT

Post by **Zoide** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:14 pm

We'll see when the Viiwok comes out. Then we can have an Omni vs. WizDish vs. Cyberith vs. Viiwok showdown

Post by **ziphnor** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:36 pm

NightlHlawk wrote:Another video showing more movement samples. The above video design definitely looks more elegant. Getting pretty excited to see how this turns out.

That actually looks extremely convincing, not needing special shoes is a big bonus, and not walking on a slope is also a bonus. I wonder if Cyberith are planning a crowd funding campaign any time soon? There would be a good chance i would back them based on what i have seen so far (assuming a reasonable price). Also, good news for people in the EU (like me), Cyberith appears to be based in Austria (at least the cyberith.com domain is registered in Austria), so no $250 shipping cost to Scandinavia like with the Omni.

As already pointed out the poles will need some kind of top to prevent them from impaling clumsy people and of course the bottom plate needs to be slightly bigger and round.

I wouldn't be too worried about falling with this setup, i don't think one needs much support in order to avoid slipping ( though as pointed out big jumps might be slightly risky).

Post by **colocolo** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:43 pm

this thing should be combined with a ball carpet like the Cybercarpet uses.
Luckily small balls are ridiculous cheap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHfUpI66tfo

Post by **yomer** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:45 pm

For some reason I'm preferring the idea of having the Omni with the flexible support to allow crouching and jumping. I'll leave my pledge untouched, but I would really be interested in exchanging the fixed support on the Omni with a Virtualizer like support.

Now, about the design of the Virtualizer and game interaction in general:

-I for some reason still feel the strides on the Omni are more natural.
-I feel one could more easily lose balance on the Virtualizer and slip. Given the extremely low friction surface used, I got the impression that He was about to slip on several occasions.
-The Virtualizer has moving parts and it seems that it would need a lot of maintenance given its mechanic nature.
-The best design would make the user feel like (s)he's really walking. No solution get's that perfectly. And watching both products' videos I feel the Omni would feel more natural(walking-wise, not necessarily crouching or jumping).
-About the jumping. Imagine for a moment you're in a warzone or a mountain. How many times would you really need to jump vertically? Any jumps made would usually be across/over an obstacle. Neither the Omni nor the Virtualizer would allow you to make those kinds of leaps.
-And the crouching... even though the Virtualizer does it better, the Omni can be modified to allow something similar and with those modifications would probably give you more stability because of the shape and surface of the dish.

These are all my thoughts and by no means represent the whole truth, but my take on the products. I'm really interested in having these points discussed and corrected.

Post by **NightlHlawk** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:59 pm

ziphnor wrote:That actually looks extremely convincing, not needing special shoes is a big bonus, and not walking on a slope is also a bonus. I wonder if Cyberith are planning a crowd funding campaign any time soon? There would be a good chance i would back them based on what i have seen so far (assuming a reasonable price). Also, good news for people in the EU (like me), Cyberith appears to be based in Austria (at least the cyberith.com domain is registered in Austria), so no $250 shipping cost to Scandinavia like with the Omni.

I think the creator might be looking into a slight bowl shape for the bottom design. I'm unsure what impact that will have on how natural it will feel.

yomer wrote:-About the jumping. Imagine for a moment you're in a warzone or a mountain. How many times would you really need to jump vertically? Any jumps made would usually be across/over an obstacle. Neither the Omni nor the Virtualizer would allow you to make those kinds of leaps.

I remember Jan saying at one point that jumping can (and is during the demos) be mapped to a 'forward jump', since you tend to be jumping forward in most cases. It's an inelegant fix, but it shows that it's still a little flexible.

Post by **VRus** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:41 pm

yomer wrote:-I for some reason still feel the strides on the Omni are more natural.

it's looks are deceptive: Omni seams natural because of the very little effort it requires to walk,
but the geometry is crooked towards 'hamster wheel', gemoetrically, it will feel similar to trying to walk upwards
at the very beginning of descending escalator (I'll have to try that...) which IMO will not feel natural

yet i've backed the Omni, hoping the immersion it gives will outweight the little adaptations
that my mind will have to do, just like screendoor of my Rift just fades away with time

Post by **blazespinnaker** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:46 pm

yomer wrote:For some reason I'm preferring the idea of having the Omni with the flexible support to allow crouching and jumping. I'll leave my pledge untouched, but I would really be interested in exchanging the fixed support on the Omni with a Virtualizer like support.

Now, about the design of the Virtualizer and game interaction in general:

-I for some reason still feel the strides on the Omni are more natural.
-I feel one could more easily lose balance on the Virtualizer and slip. Given the extremely low friction surface used, I got the impression that He was about to slip on several occasions.
-The Virtualizer has moving parts and it seems that it would need a lot of maintenance given its mechanic nature.
-The best design would make the user feel like (s)he's really walking. No solution get's that perfectly. And watching both products' videos I feel the Omni would feel more natural(walking-wise, not necessarily crouching or jumping).
-About the jumping. Imagine for a moment you're in a warzone or a mountain. How many times would you really need to jump vertically? Any jumps made would usually be across/over an obstacle. Neither the Omni nor the Virtualizer would allow you to make those kinds of leaps.
-And the crouching... even though the Virtualizer does it better, the Omni can be modified to allow something similar and with those modifications would probably give you more stability because of the shape and surface of the dish.

These are all my thoughts and by no means represent the whole truth, but my take on the products. I'm really interested in having these points discussed and corrected.

You make some good points. I disagree the Omni is more natural, in fact, I think the Omni is less natural. You can experiment with this yourself. Just get a slippery board and lean it up against something and then put your feet on it. Do the same with a slippery surface you pull your feet back on. I prefer a flat surface. The advantage of the omni though is that there is less effort involved in making your feet move - but I wouldn't say it's more natural.

The Omni has parts that could wear out, in particular the shoes and the plunge pins. The harness might wear out as well holding your weight all the time (which may chaff a lot btw, while you're using it).

The real advantage of the omni I think is it's not just a prototype, it's a successful kickstarter lead by someone who clearly Gets Things Done. Cyberith may or may not actually get built and when it does, who knows how organized the guy will be (not to say he won't, of course. I'm just saying.)

I have a certain amount of faith in Jan given what I've seen so far, and I'm sure that's why a lot of people bought into his kickstarter. I wish he'd be a bit more transparent about some of the issues with his product though. That would only heighten my confidence in what he's doing.

Post by **colocolo** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:51 pm

VRus wrote:
yomer wrote:-I for some reason still feel the strides on the Omni are more natural.
it's looks are deceptive: Omni seams natural because of the very little effort it requires to walk,
but the geometry is crooked towards 'hamster wheel', gemoetrically, it will feel similar to trying to walk upwards
at the very beginning of descending escalator (I'll have to try that...) which IMO will not feel natural

yet i've backed the Omni, hoping the immersion it gives will outweight the little adaptations
that my mind will have to do, just like screendoor of my Rift just fades away with time

I wonder how my mind would adapt to the Omni if i also would see the correct movement of leg avatars.

Post by **yomer** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:27 pm

blazespinnaker wrote:You make some good points. I disagree the Omni is more natural, in fact, I think the Omni is less natural. You can experiment with this yourself. Just get a slippery board and lean it up against something and then put your feet on it. Do the same with a slippery surface you pull your feet back on. I prefer a flat surface. The advantage of the omni though is that there is less effort involved in making your feet move - but I wouldn't say it's more natural.

The Omni has parts that could wear out, in particular the shoes and the plunge pins. The harness might wear out as well holding your weight all the time (which may chaff a lot btw, while you're using it).

The real advantage of the omni I think is it's not just a prototype, it's a successful kickstarter lead by someone who clearly Gets Things Done. Cyberith may or may not actually get built and when it does, who knows how organized the guy will be (not to say he won't, of course. I'm just saying.)

I have a certain amount of faith in Jan given what I've seen so far, and I'm sure that's why a lot of people bought into his kickstarter. I wish he'd be a bit more transparent about some of the issues with his product though. That would only heighten my confidence in what he's doing.

I didn't say that the Omni was maintenance free, I refer to the fact that I think the Virtualizer will be more of a pain and costly to maintain or get spare parts if needed. But I'm saying this half blind by not knowing every detail of the Virtualizer design, so let's wait and get all the facts before coming to a conclusion on this.

I'll have to play the devil's advocate here. You have a concave surface which makes you feel you're hitting a slope with every step. Then you have the Virtualizer with a silky smooth surface. Now, picture yourself in a game with lot's of action and different terrains. Which steps would feel more natural in those environments? The smaller portion of the available games/applications will have the user traversing on a smooth surface for a very long time. So the Omni type of steps should blend more easily with the experience, right?

Post by **blazespinnaker** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:58 pm

yomer wrote: I didn't say that the Omni was maintenance free

I know. Not sure I said you did. I'm merely discussing

The smaller portion of the available games/applications will have the user traversing on a smooth surface for a very long time. So the Omni type of steps should blend more easily with the experience, right?

I built a small Omni prototype. I didn't enjoy the experience so i stopped building it out further. I'm sure Jan's will be better though.

I've done some simulation with sliding my feet on a flat, low friction surface. I enjoyed that better (felt less slippy).

If you watch Jan's videos when he uses the Omni, he does this weird stance after walking where he has to have at least one foot (sometimes two) braced against the back of the flat surface where it curves up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... tk#t=2025s

I suspect this is because there is so much momentum from sliding (which was my experience on my prototype) that his feet are sliding to the back of the concave dish.

This kind of wild sliding movement doesn't seem natural to me.

Post by **adventurer** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:54 pm

colocolo wrote:this thing should be combined with a ball carpet like the Cybercarpet uses.
Luckily small balls are ridiculous cheap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHfUpI66tfo

small balls seem like a perfect solution for walking naturally.

Post by **colocolo** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:07 am

The Virtualizer has now a sitting function.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xflcAF-hhw8

Post by **Ziggurat** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:11 am

Some more work and this could be the ultimate Star Citizen cockpit.
Where you sit in that harness (comfortably?) and get up to do a boarding of an enemy ship. ^_^

Post by **NightlHlawk** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:12 am

Sitting footage looks great. Love the quick updates.

Post by **blazespinnaker** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:26 am

Impressive responsiveness. This is what makes great companies - focus on product (rather than marketing and pr) with rapid demos.

I think cheapo youtube videos where you can see his actual feet and usage are 10x more impressive than snazzy edits of fan boys talking about how much they love your stuff.

Really hope he keeps this up.

One of the interesting things I'm finding with ODTs is that it doesn't take long for you to build up muscles so that some of things here that seem stressful at first turn out to be pretty minor after a couple of weeks.

Post by **Ziggurat** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:42 am

blazespinnaker wrote:One of the interesting things I'm finding with ODTs is that it doesn't take long for you to build up muscles so that some of things here that seem stressful at first turn out to be pretty minor after a couple of weeks.

Before you get your ODT, start doing squats today!

Post by **Lilwolf** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:04 am

I'm guessing they could paint the metal base with the stuff that doesn't let anything stick (and plungers ect). I hear it's not that expensive, but toxic. That being said, you shouldn't lick the base and it would be fine.

but I think it needs a bit of friction or you would still slip and fall.

Post by **NightlHlawk** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:53 am

Creator doesn't have an estimation on pricing other than keeping it "affordable" and no estimation on when it will be on a crowdfunding site.

Which is fine, but I can't wait to see/hear more.

Post by **yomer** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:10 am

I find this last video interesting, because aside from letting you crouch and rest, or even sit, it also could work as a failsafe in case you slip. Providing the structure and mechanism can take the force of the fall without getting any damage. I hope we get more details soon.

blazespinnaker,
I see what you're referring to in the video demo of the Omni, although I don't feel it would be that off of reality, since when you're running you need to stop and exert a certain amount of force to prevent your body from staying in motion. This seems to be the same, but for the feet. Maybe it's one of those things that unless I get to try it out, I won't get the full sense of what you mean or what it would add or take from the experience.

Post by **NightlHlawk** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:18 am

If the frame and straps were reinforced enough, I'm sure it could handle a 'fall'. It just depends on how comfortable it'll be with that kinda force tugging on your crotch/bottom and it'll increase the cost of construction.

Post by **ElectroPulse** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:26 am

Are there any plans to move the supports further away from the player? I noticed in the last demo you needed to pull the gun back in order to clear the supports.

Post by **colocolo** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:38 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRgFMpWAXF4

Post by **blazespinnaker** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:59 am

Sweet. Definitely needs a bigger base plate so you can take bigger strides + those supports could probably be moved up a bit so you don't bang you knee on them.

Post by **Zoide** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:45 pm

The Virtualizer is looking awesome! That said, walking slowly still looks a bit strained, and the person needs to tilt forward. I guess it's simple physics given that you're dragging your feet across a flat surface. Perhaps curving it *a little bit* will lead to more natural walking.

Post by **blazespinnaker** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:56 pm

Zoide wrote:The Virtualizer is looking awesome! That said, walking slowly still looks a bit strained, and the person needs to tilt forward. I guess it's simple physics given that you're dragging your feet across a flat surface. Perhaps curving it *a little bit* will lead to more natural walking.

Agreed!

Post by **shent1080** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:54 pm

I haven't posted on here yet but i have to say well done for the constant updates, project looks great, to improve upon it i would agree with what others are saying, dish for the base with a lower friction coating, supports look good and the ability to be able to sit is great, reduction of noise when jumping, increased distance from the supports to the walking area (as noticed the gun was nearly touching when you were in seated position on last video. And don't worry too much about the tracking as the new sixense tracking solutions (if produced) may be able to take care of that.

Good luck on the project, looking forward to the next update.

Post by **usb247** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:19 pm

Love the sitting feature. That should work well for vehicles.

Post by **Zoide** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:53 pm

Does anyone know if the Virtualizer's creator has an MTBS account? Or maybe a Reddit account for an AMA?

It would be great to hear from him how it feels to walk with the Virtualizer vs walking in real life, what are his future plans, etc. YouTube comments are OK but hardly the best way to organize a useful Q&A.

Post by **blazespinnaker** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:22 pm

Cyberith wrote:Its still in the develpoement process, but yes i want to start crowd funding to accelerate the process and get the Virtualizer optimised to you my friends!

Post by **KydDynoMyte** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:28 am

usb247 wrote:Love the sitting feature. That should work well for vehicles.

That would be great for vehicles. Here I was only thinking of that toilet simulator. Wonder how I didn't think of running up to a Jet/Heli in BF2 and jumping in and flying it.

I like this design. I wonder if cost could be brought down even more by only using 3 supports 120º apart and maybe a circular base plate. I wonder what the 4 post give you that 3 couldn't. Unless it's using off the self parts where it might be harder to find parts needed for 120º spacing, or maybe the 4 legs give you a more stable base.

Post by **remosito** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:40 am

Ziggurat wrote:Some more work and this could be the ultimate Star Citizen cockpit.
Where you sit in that harness (comfortably?) and get up to do a boarding of an enemy ship. ^_^

to messy with hotas and pedals and all that.

But! Perfect turret-pit

Post by **NightlHlawk** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:42 am

KydDynoMyte wrote:I like this design. I wonder if cost could be brought down even more by only using 3 supports 120º apart and maybe a circular base plate. I wonder what the 4 post give you that 3 couldn't. Unless it's using off the self parts where it might be harder to find parts needed for 120º spacing, or maybe the 4 legs give you a more stable base.

Another video posted here under the guy's channel shows a possible future design similar to what you're talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... jf64jyKbW8

Post by **KydDynoMyte** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:53 am

NightlHlawk wrote: Another video posted here under the guy's channel shows a possible future design similar to what you're talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... jf64jyKbW8

Thanks, I should of noticed that.

So much great VR stuff going on right now and it's hard to try to look at it all while at work.

Post by **ziphnor** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:12 am

KydDynoMyte wrote: I like this design. I wonder if cost could be brought down even more by only using 3 supports 120º apart and maybe a circular base plate. I wonder what the 4 post give you that 3 couldn't. Unless it's using off the self parts where it might be harder to find parts needed for 120º spacing, or maybe the 4 legs give you a more stable base.

I emailed info@cyberith.com just to let them know i thought it looked good and part of the answer was ( i hope he doesn't mind me quoting him here, but i am guessing not as it is all good publicity

info@cyberith.com wrote: ... so we want to make a new design as soon as possible, bigger base, 3 instead of 4 guides, reliable sensors, intelligent software for individual situations and games (For instance jumping forward), lighter and smaller ring construction, we also have a construction to get the weight of the ring to ZERO ...

Among other interesting information was:

info@cyberith.com wrote: Yes we want to start a crowdfunding campaign, first we try to get to the gamescom in germany and probably start the campaign in september.
We want to get the homepage up this weekend and yes we want to let people subscribe for a newsletter.

Post by **colocolo** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:17 am

Get into contact with OculusVR! Now!

Post by **NightlHlawk** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:20 am

ziphnor wrote:
info@cyberith.com wrote: Yes we want to start a crowdfunding campaign, first we try to get to the gamescom in germany and probably start the campaign in september.
We want to get the homepage up this weekend and yes we want to let people subscribe for a newsletter.

September?

Post by **Okta** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:54 am

The base structure and uprites must be made of steel to withstand the forces applied. It looks like those uprite poles will be ready to snap off at the base with all the leaning into the harness. This thing will be heavy and expensive.

Post by **colocolo** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:18 am

Okta wrote:The base structure and uprites must be made of steel to withstand the forces applied. It looks like those uprite poles will be ready to snap off at the base with all the leaning into the harness. This thing will be heavy and expensive.

i don't think so. if hollow iron profils are stucked right into a strong capsule bearing i want to see someone snapping them off. My guess is not more than 20 kilo for the whole construction since Cyberith already said that they've made a 'ZERO' kg ring structure.
EDIT: what are the costs for a few iron profiles. an apple and an egg.

Post by **blazespinnaker** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:22 am

Jan makes a good point on virtuix.com .. All these moving parts could get expensive.

Post by **colocolo** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:56 am

seems like someone wants to let shine his product in a better light than the other.
Aluminium, and all these ball bearings.... sounds to the average like 'hell this will cost the world'.
I don't think Cyberith has used here any ball bearings at all. Just normal sliding bearings.
Not to forget that Cyberith already said that they have invented a ring structure that will weigh almost
'ZERO'.
Nothing against the Omni, but i miss the neutrality here a bit.