Meant to be Seen

That's great.

geekmaster,
I have a few questios regarding the LG transmitter:

-Have you been able to measure the latency for the LG transmitter/receiver?
-How would sending the 1280x800 resolution through the dongle work? Will there be some sort of scaling in the process?
-Any more technical details or thoughts you could share regarding having the Rift wireless through this dongle?

I was thinking on the Omni + Rift + Hydra combination. Solving the sending of the tracker signal wirelessly, one could accomplish a fully un-tethered solution so there won't be a need for a special cabling solution. Although, if the consumer version of the Rift uses more than 1080p, then we would be basically screwed.

yomer wrote:geekmaster,
I have a few questios regarding the LG transmitter:

-Have you been able to measure the latency for the LG transmitter/receiver?
-How would sending the 1280x800 resolution through the dongle work? Will there be some sort of scaling in the process?
-Any more technical details or thoughts you could share regarding having the Rift wireless through this dongle?

I was thinking on the Omni + Rift + Hydra combination. Solving the sending of the tracker signal wirelessly, one could accomplish a fully un-tethered solution so there won't be a need for a special cabling solution. Although, if the consumer version of the Rift uses more than 1080p, then we would be basically screwed.

It uses HDMI. Probably no scaling. Somebody else reported virtually no latency on the video with these. And the receivers also send remote control data back to the transmitter (so a TV can select the input port on the transmitter), so it may be possible to send (perhaps differential/compressed) head tracker data back to the host PC using the return channel.

The "dongle" is the RECEIVER that attaches to the back of a TV. The transmitter is a large "component" box, meant to stack with other A/V media components. But it could probably be repacked into a smaller box.

HDMI allows sending higher resolutions (Single-link DVI compatible). I get 1920x1200 and 2048x1152 out of my HDMI ports. I have not tried those with the LG units yet, but they should work AFAIK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Specifications wrote:The HDMI specification defines the protocols, signals, electrical interfaces and mechanical requirements of the standard. The maximum pixel clock rate for HDMI 1.0 was 165 MHz, which was sufficient to support 1080p and WUXGA (1920×1200) at 60 Hz. HDMI 1.3 increased that to 340 MHz, which allows for higher resolution (such as WQXGA, 2560×1600) across a single digital link. An HDMI connection can either be single-link (type A/C) or dual-link (type B) and can have a video pixel rate of 25 MHz to 340 MHz (for a single-link connection) or 25 MHz to 680 MHz (for a dual-link connection). Video formats with rates below 25 MHz (e.g., 13.5 MHz for 480i/NTSC) are transmitted using a pixel-repetition scheme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface#Single-link_DVI wrote:The DVI specification mandates a maximum pixel clock frequency of 165 MHz when running in single-link mode. With a single DVI link, the highest supported standard resolution is 2.75 megapixels (including blanking interval) at 60 Hz refresh. For practical purposes, this allows a maximum screen resolution at 60 Hz, for widescreen 16:10 ratio of 2,098 × 1,311 or, for 4:3 ratio of 1,915 × 1,436 pixels, or for 5:4 ratio of 1,854 × 1,483 pixels.

I am not sure which HDMI versions are supported by this LG AN-WL100W wireless device. The HDMI version is not stated in the product specifications.

geekmaster wrote:

densohax wrote:

Alkapwn wrote:User will wear a belt of sorts with the control box strapped to it. I'm gonna use a slip ring for the HDMI and USB.

Hmm slip rings are able to convey high frequency signals without noise!?

You can get these 5GHz 1080p video transmitter and receivers for about $20 on amazon and ebay, even though LG lists them for $350:
http://www.lg.com/us/tv-accessories/lg- ... -media-kit

They have been hacked to not need an LG TV, so they could be used with a Rift:
https://plus.google.com/101948760925084 ... tdqMZqCzEA

The receiver is small and only needs battery power connected to it. I use one on my TV about 20 feet away through a wall and furniture and it still shows a solid signal.

The transmitter is big, but mostly empty, and can be controlled with its serial port (or wirelessly from the receiver).

Using these could save the extra slip ring wires, and potential loss of signal.

hmm, if this work on wifi, I don't see a reason to buy more hardware. I mean, why not using a rasp pi on yourself connected to the headset and send everything using wifi to/from a host pc?

And using wifi will certainly introduce latency.

When I tested the VRcade they had wireless hdmi set up, and it seemed to be working flawlessly with extremely low latency. Of course, they were using optical tracking for all tracking, so no round trip was necessary.

It seems that this clearance wireless media kits by LG are on sale because they're first gen products. We can assume they are WHDI 1.0 because they don't support 3D. And according to wikipedia, only first gen products didn't support 3D. Although, they are said to have very low latency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_H ... _Interface

Edit: Check this out http://www.amazon.com/Peerless-HDSWHDI1 ... escription

I know it's expensive, but it has the capability of sending a USB signal over wireless, I wonder if the Rift's USB connection could be sent by this medium. Given that the Rift uses a power adapter to power it up, it might be possible.

Update to my experiences posted earlier in the thread.

Got my Razer Hydra now and took it across to the guys at White Paper Games yesterday and played the Sixense Tuscany demo.

I'm convinced by the arguments that the comments made about familiarity both with the Oculus and FPS games are true but what I definitely think helps in the reduction of motion sickness is the presence of some reference objects that are controlled by your own movements.

As soon as I went into the environment and calibrated the hands to work the previous feelings of illness did not occur once despite moving around much more than I had done previously.

The Hydra is pretty accurate and drift, while present, is tolerable and not too intrusive. What I did find however was the desire to move in the real world was now even more compelling and the Hydra does not like you moving away from the base station and you very quickly end up at 90 degrees or more to your hands which is hugely confusing once you've done several head turns and moved your position with the joystick several times. I'm sure you can reduce those issues by sitting down but I'd like to see a Hydra II with a greater range and the ability to to positional track the Rift itself.

For those waiting for the updated flying demo, I should be ale to film it tonight and upload the "level" as well for others to try out. Can't wait to see what everyone thinks.

yomer wrote:It seems that this clearance wireless media kits by LG are on sale because they're first gen products. We can assume they are WHDI 1.0 because they don't support 3D. And according to wikipedia, only first gen products didn't support 3D. Although, they are said to have very low latency.

The "no 3D" thing is not really true in most cases. It only applies to 120Hz frame-sequencial 3D from BluRay players. Typical SBS-Half content from 3D cable channels, and other SBS-Half movies, work very nicely on my LG passive 3DTV, over the wireless link.

And the Rift design *IS* SBS 3D, so the RiftDK and this very affordable (clearance priced) LG wireless media kit are totally compatible (and totally awesome). The only question is if this LG wireless device can send tracking data over its return (remote control) channel back to the transmitter unit (which has a serial port to connect to a host PC).

In Cymatic Bruce's latest Rift entry on youtube (all of his vids are awesome and really fun to watch) he mentions he "voluntarily" does a "head-bob" by wagging his head as he walks and in doing so has solved the motion sickness problem he had while walking.

(I think it is likely evidence of how immersive the Rift is that any "weirdness" can be uncomfortable...the subconcious seems to expect things to be "in order" in vr. Very cool.)

geekmaster wrote:

yomer wrote:It seems that this clearance wireless media kits by LG are on sale because they're first gen products. We can assume they are WHDI 1.0 because they don't support 3D. And according to wikipedia, only first gen products didn't support 3D. Although, they are said to have very low latency.

The "no 3D" thing is not really true in most cases. It only applies to 120Hz frame-sequencial 3D from BluRay players. Typical SBS-Half content from 3D cable channels, and other SBS-Half movies, work very nicely on my LG passive 3DTV, over the wireless link.

And the Rift design *IS* SBS 3D, so the RiftDK and this very affordable (clearance priced) LG wireless media kit are totally compatible (and totally awesome). The only question is if this LG wireless device can send tracking data over its return (remote control) channel back to the transmitter unit (which has a serial port to connect to a host PC).

I agree with You and understand that the Rift is indeed SBS3D. I didn't emphasized the "no 3D" to imply a non compatibility with the Rift, but to set as a fact that the LG media kit is a 1.0 spec first gen product, which in our case would suffice if it could be modded to send the tracking information.

yomer wrote:I agree with You and understand that the Rift is indeed SBS3D. I didn't emphasized the "no 3D" to imply a non compatibility with the Rift, but to set as a fact that the LG media kit is a 1.0 spec first gen product, which in our case would suffice if it could be modded to send the tracking information.

Even if we cannot send tracking info over the remote return channel, we could probably send it over bluetooth, using an inexpensive microprocessor dev kit. The Virtuix Omni (and other applications) would be so much better if would could "cut the cord" completely...

It looks like a Bluetooth module could be the cheapest way to send the tracking data via wireless...
EDIT: Yep, what @geekmaster said. lol (posted while I was typing).

The problem is, transmitting the raw USB stream is out of the question with Bluetooth.
Also, wireless USB (WUSB) seems to have disappeared? I can't find any actual devices to buy.
Even if you could find a WUSB link, I'm sure it would be very expensive compared to the whole Dev kit.

So, the other way would be to mod the tracker board and put the ARM chip at the receiver end.
The Bluetooth chip in the transmitter would then just send the raw SPI / I2C data from the 6DOF / magno.
It might require a small AVR chip at each end to combine / extract the data, but it would work, and the bandwidth would be far lower than USB.

I realize this sounds completely theoretical, but it's the only relatively easy way I see to do it if people REALLY want wireless tracking.

Of course, the proper way to do all this would be for Oculus to update the tracker firmware to work directly with a BT module.
The SDK would also updated to support tracking via a standard BT dongle (unless a specific receiver is made which works via USB like the normal tracker).

Just some thoughts.
It sounds like a pipe dream, but all this stuff is possible with a bit of effort.

OzOnE.
P.S. I'll play with the Razer Hydra for a while, then I'll probably crack it open and see if I can boost up the coil power etc.

OzOnE2k10 wrote:P.S. I'll play with the Razer Hydra for a while, then I'll probably crack it open and see if I can boost up the coil power etc.

Or use larger coils to extend the magnetic field.

When the consumer version is ready. Oculus could add a WHDI module to the controller box with USB pass-through and offer it as a wireless version of the rift for $100 more. Like adding this to the Rift. I'll have this on my wishlist in case some day it goes on sale.

Come on guys... I keep trying to check this thread for first impressions, but you're just spamming it up...

Sorry, you're right.
Maybe we should post the hardware / mods stuff in the other threads?

OzOnE2k10 wrote:Sorry, you're right.
Maybe we should post the hardware / mods stuff in the other threads?

TBH it would be nice if there was a mod subforum.

OzOnE2k10 wrote:Sorry, you're right.
Maybe we should post the hardware / mods stuff in the other threads?

There are MANY posts on "hardware / mods stuff" buried inside MANY unrelated threads. Including THIS thread!

There were dedicated Rift hacking and modding threads such as this one:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=17117

And other dedicated threads as well, but they never gained much traction. Most modding discussions are buried inside MANY unrelated threads.

Meh, modders! Rule breakers one and all!

For that matter, even the Rift breaks the rules. That's why is called a "Rift"...

Carry, on. Nothing to see here...

lmimmfn wrote:

OzOnE2k10 wrote:Sorry, you're right.
Maybe we should post the hardware / mods stuff in the other threads?

TBH it would be nice if there was a mod subforum.

Subforums. Where threads are sent to die. This works just fine..

MrGreen wrote:

lmimmfn wrote:

OzOnE2k10 wrote:Sorry, you're right.
Maybe we should post the hardware / mods stuff in the other threads?

TBH it would be nice if there was a mod subforum.

Subforums. Where threads are sent to die. This works just fine..

True. Let the evolutionary technical discussion flourish wherever and whenever. This is what it is all about people! We are are deciding the future right here. Make no mistake.

i've had the pleasure of playing with the rift for 3 weeks coming up tomorrow. i want to leave some of my findings and impressions for all those hungry for new impressions. i'm going to talk about a couple areas, in no particular order:

-tracking
add positional tracking and this thing is perfect. 1000 hz truly kicks ass. oculus did a fantastic job.

-screen weaknesses
resolution, motion blur and the screendoor. all issues that bothered me at first, then faded into the background as i used it more. at this point, i think the motion blur is the biggest weakness. can't wait for double (or quadruple) the resolution though. it will be an amazing enhancement to the overall experience, and also more demanding on your pc/system.

-software / hydra
lots of interesting demos are floating around, people are experimenting with controls and third party controllers. the hydra, while not perfect, is very compelling. the ability to control hands up close to interact with the world is... a game changer. the hydra does drift though, and maintaining yourself pointing forward on the base can pull you out of the world to readjust. not a huge deal, but an area for obvious improvement.

-patching existing games
vereio perception driver is good, but not optimal. mirror's edge is playable, but doesn't feel as good as a real implementation (say tf2). none of the "hacked" stuff feels perfect and makes you just crave games designed from the ground up for it. skyrim is interesting, but the ui problems/scaling prevent me from actually playing it. tf2 implementation is really really good. i love the dead zone aiming, and the world feels good. the only shame is that i've played many many hours of tf2 years ago and the gameplay feels stale to me, but i still find myself firing it up for a good, consistent experience.

-other random thoughts
high resolution textures. textures are so important when you are so close to the actual walls/object. it's hard to explain the overall feeling the rift gives you, and i hate to feed the hype train: but this is it. this is day zero for virtual reality. scale, sense of space and immersion are all beyond anything else out there. is the rift true virtual reality? i'm not sure, but it's closer than anything else we've got, and all the energy around it should push it to levels we've been dreaming about. in 5 years? in 10 years? i can't imagine what this shall spawn, from oculus, the community and other competitors.

i'm not sure what control method i prefer. the 360 gamepad is nice and familiar, so casual games. for shooters, the mouse works well (tf2's default aim mode is well done). anything with hydra support (for natural control) is very interesting, but i've not played a shooter yet with it. can't wait for adoral's hl2 mod, which looks to be the best of all worlds...

i play mostly sitting. if the rift was wireless (and i had all wireless inputs) and a bigger play space i would feel more immersed/free. sitting and not feeling that i can truly turn around freely (i peak behind me and return facing my monitor).

if microsoft (or someone else) isn't trying to buy out oculus, i'd be surprised. the next round of consoles won't be able to compete with the consumer version of the rift and with mature software. anyone with vision and a pocketbook should be asking how much can we afford to implement and own this ourselves?

Thanks for getting this thread back on topic jayoh. Those of us who are still waiting for our rifts need this stuff.

i hate to feed the hype train

Fail.

That's okay though. I crave hype.

jayoh,
Very nice take on the current state of affairs. I'm actually concerned that a big company might try to purchase Oculus, because they would most likely double the price or just downplay it to prevent their consoles to lose against PCs(MS and Sony). Let's hope for the best. Besides, I don't think anyone can any longer own a patent for the Rift, because there is prior art and previous designs in FYI form made publicly available long enough.

BTW, could you check out this screen capture in your rift(It's in 1080p, so you might want to downscale it)
Antichamber

I finally got around to finishing my second video testing out flying in a UDK map that I put together. So far this has still been the most enjoyable, least nauseating demo I've been able to run people through. The movement while flying is so natural with the head tracking. And since you're always looking exactly where you're going there's no disconnect between what your eyes see and what your brain thinks it feels. I made the level like a giant rectangle to minimize the need to spin around in real space. This way no tangles and no having to use the right analog stick to compensate rotation, which causes nausea.

Here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ffRkaxVC5c

And the link to the level if anyone wants to try it out.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/399 ... y.udk?dl=1

Let me know what you guys think. This is personally my favorite thing to do on the Rift so far. Though my Hydra has officially shipped now, so the Hydra Tuscany demo might take the cake shortly. And that only until @adoral84 releases his HL2 mod.

Put map in your UDK game content maps folder
C:\UDK\UDK-2013-03\UDKGame\Content\Maps

Console Commands:
"fly" - enables flying mode
"slomo #" - signifies speed by entering #
"setallspeed #" - signifies speed increase by entering # (2 = times 2 or 200%)

Console Commands Used:
"setallspeed 2" - used for all slomo settings
"slomo 8" - used for default starter speed
"slomo 10" - used for faster Supermanish speed
"slomo 15" - used for Hulk jump speed
"slomo 20+" - used for crazy fast awesomeness

jayoh wrote: skyrim is interesting, but the ui problems/scaling prevent me from actually playing it.

There was a possible ui fix posted, try it out for those of us without a rift yet: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.p ... 2&start=40

jayoh wrote: if microsoft (or someone else) isn't trying to buy out oculus, i'd be surprised. the next round of consoles won't be able to compete with the consumer version of the rift and with mature software. anyone with vision and a pocketbook should be asking how much can we afford to implement and own this ourselves?

Thanks for that post, very interesting, just want to pick up on this point, you still need hardware to run the Rift, which is essentially a display device. A console/PC is still needed to do the donkey work. The mass market is not going to have uber $2000 gaming rigs. Consoles will continue to be successful for that reason whether they have Oculus support or not.

NegativeCamber wrote:

jayoh wrote: if microsoft (or someone else) isn't trying to buy out oculus, i'd be surprised. the next round of consoles won't be able to compete with the consumer version of the rift and with mature software. anyone with vision and a pocketbook should be asking how much can we afford to implement and own this ourselves?

Thanks for that post, very interesting, just want to pick up on this point, you still need hardware to run the Rift, which is essentially a display device. A console/PC is still needed to do the donkey work. The mass market is not going to have uber $2000 gaming rigs. Consoles will continue to be successful for that reason whether they have Oculus support or not.

Picking up on both points I'd be surprised if Microsoft WERE trying to buy Oculus at this point. This is still a VERY niche part of the market and even if it does become commercially successful in it's own sphere I doubt you'll see the same size of market as you have for the Kinect for example.
HMDs like the Rift are still too extreme for the mass market which has had much of it's recent market penetration achieved by the social aspects of the technology that creates an inclusive family experience, strapping a Rift on your face is exactly the opposite.

I think people forget that we're all believers on these and similar forums but once you get outside of these forums into the mainstream and you'll find the majority haven't even heard of the Rift let alone want one.

On the second point PC rigs don't need to be expensive or high end to run the Rift successfully. My system is a mix of technology using an Nvidia GTS250 card on an i7 motherboard with 8mb RAM and an SSD and I'm achieving 60fps with V-sync but I agree that the console market doesn't need the Rift to continue to be successful

V8Griff wrote:

NegativeCamber wrote:

jayoh wrote: if microsoft (or someone else) isn't trying to buy out oculus, i'd be surprised. the next round of consoles won't be able to compete with the consumer version of the rift and with mature software. anyone with vision and a pocketbook should be asking how much can we afford to implement and own this ourselves?

Thanks for that post, very interesting, just want to pick up on this point, you still need hardware to run the Rift, which is essentially a display device. A console/PC is still needed to do the donkey work. The mass market is not going to have uber $2000 gaming rigs. Consoles will continue to be successful for that reason whether they have Oculus support or not.

Picking up on both points I'd be surprised if Microsoft WERE trying to buy Oculus at this point. This is still a VERY niche part of the market and even if it does become commercially successful in it's own sphere I doubt you'll see the same size of market as you have for the Kinect for example.
HMDs like the Rift are still too extreme for the mass market which has had much of it's recent market penetration achieved by the social aspects of the technology that creates an inclusive family experience, strapping a Rift on your face is exactly the opposite.

I think people forget that we're all believers on these and similar forums but once you get outside of these forums into the mainstream and you'll find the majority haven't even heard of the Rift let alone want one.

On the second point PC rigs don't need to be expensive or high end to run the Rift successfully. My system is a mix of technology using an Nvidia GTS250 card on an i7 motherboard with 8mb RAM and an SSD and I'm achieving 60fps with V-sync but I agree that the console market doesn't need the Rift to continue to be successful

60FPs in what? Counterstrike 1.6? There is NO WAY that card will run BF3 or any modern game at 1080p at 60FPS. I can't and my 6970 is 4 times more powerful.

The rift only needs a lower res, but that's the dev kit, the consumer version will be higher res.

That looks thrilling Alkapwn. Can't wait to try it out!

As far as impressions, I don't have any myself yet but I came across an excellent piece from... The Michigan Daily mind you.

A few choice quotes:

If the Oculus Rift was a religion, evangelism would be a piece of cake. Just have someone try on the thing and you have a new convert.

The Oculus Rift Developer Kit, even in its early stage, is not just game-changing, it’s game-shattering. The future is fast approaching, and it’s going to be a wild ride.

MrGreen wrote:That looks thrilling Alkapwn. Can't wait to try it out!

As far as impressions, I don't have any myself yet but I came across an excellent piece from... The Michigan Daily mind you. ...

In that article, I like the "bee keeping" analogy to describe the screendoor effect. It is obvious that the author frequents this forum, but which one of us is he?

Now, I wonder where he got that "bee keeping" idea...

(J.K. Rowling, if you’re feeling bored and want to get richer, just commission a Quidditch Oculus Rift game and watch the money pour in)

Shut up and take my money! Seriously.

geekmaster wrote:

MrGreen wrote:That looks thrilling Alkapwn. Can't wait to try it out!

As far as impressions, I don't have any myself yet but I came across an excellent piece from... The Michigan Daily mind you. ...

In that article, I like the "bee keeping" analogy to describe the screendoor effect. It is obvious that the author frequents this forum, but which one of us is he?

Now, I wonder where he got that "bee keeping" idea...

Hehehe I thought of you when I read that as well but you know, maybe it's possible someone else on earth came up with the same analogy. He also mentioned fencing without your help you know...

NegativeCamber wrote:60FPs in what? Counterstrike 1.6? There is NO WAY that card will run BF3 or any modern game at 1080p at 60FPS. I can't and my 6970 is 4 times more powerful.

The rift only needs a lower res, but that's the dev kit, the consumer version will be higher res.

I assumed we're talking about the Dev kit as that's all that's available now. If we're talking about the consumer version then yes I know I'll need a more powerful card but we're not there yet.

Hi. Got got my Rift yesterday and skipped worked to play around with it. Wow! There is nothing new for me to say that hasn't already been said. Yes, the feeling of immersion is intense. Yes the low resolution and motion blur is acceptable. Yes it is worth every penny if you are interested in VR. My favorite demos were the "bot shooter" demo posted here on MTSB3D and the "Museum of the Microstar". The latter being absolutely incredible. THAT is the demo, imho, people should try out with their Rifts.

My only concern is the nausea I am getting. I had read that over time as you adjust and get used to the Rift, the feeling of nausea subsides. Can anyone who has had more than a day to play around confirm this? I also feel as though certain games seemed to make me nauseated more so than others. The "Hydra Grafiti demo" and the rollercoaster demo are two that come to mind. While playing the "Museum of the Microstar" demo, I initially had some nausea, but because I thought it was so cool, I kept playing and it seemed to subside after a few minutes, allowing me to stay in for about 30 minutes. It was also one of the last demos i got around to playing.

Also, for anyone interested, I am using the B cups with my eyelashes just barely touching the lens. I tried using the A cups with my glasses but the b-cups seem to work better for me and make me feel less nauseated.

Got mine Tuesday and had Wednesday and Thursday off to play with it.

Favorite: Rift Valley. Leaping from the hills to the ground is a thrill. I love it.

Sickness: First day was real bad. Probably didn't help that I enjoyed jumping from high places so much. I never felt like I was going to hurl but my stomach was definitely sour. Kind of shocking to me (I have been on plenty of boats but had never experienced seasickness before). Definitely better with each passing day. Yesterday I went on a leap-a-thon just running and leaping from the tallest hills I could find in Rift Valley and my stomach was solid.

The Aurora Borealis was pretty overwhelming, I'm nerdy enough but never felt any urge to go see it in real life until I saw it on the Rift. Beautiful.

I struggled with focus. I have eventually settled on wearing my glasses but still have to experiment with the lenses more.

brainpann wrote:My only concern is the nausea I am getting. I had read that over time as you adjust and get used to the Rift, the feeling of nausea subsides. Can anyone who has had more than a day to play around confirm this? I also feel as though certain games seemed to make me nauseated more so than others.

Yes it certainly improves with use and I'd suggest once you've been immersed a few times the feelings go away. I have to say though the Hydra based demos were the ones that made me feel less nauseous as there are more 'normal' cues such as the hands and the objects you can interact with.

Interesting though how the comments seem to point to individuals having different experiences and causes of nausea (if at all) but with some commonality.

MrGreen wrote:

geekmaster wrote:... Now, I wonder where he got that "bee keeping" idea...

Hehehe I thought of you when I read that as well but you know, maybe it's possible someone else on earth came up with the same analogy. He also mentioned fencing without your help you know...

Actually, one of the replies to my beekeeping analogy was a post regarding a fencing mask, complete with an embedded photo. So the beekeeping and fencing masks (with photos) were paired closely together in the discussion regarding my suggestion to just accept the screendoor effect as part of your head gear (like a bee bonnet). It was discussed an a lot of different threads in fact, and the fencing mask more than once too. Although few ideas are ever original or independent, I think I posted the suggestion here first though...

I do not care who gets credit for such an obvious idea, but I just found it amusing that the author mentioned both examples previously used in the screendoor discussions (beekeeping and fencing), making me think that he reads these threads...