VirtuSkin Hydraulic VR Suit

[Parker]

Hi, I'm a newbie to this forum, but a long time lurker. Since I'm now getting a Rift, I've thought why not sign up here.

Seen the livestream from SXSW where Palmer, Cliffy, Chris Roberts and some other guys were talking about the Rift and VR. Chris asked Palmer if he has some ideas about movement in VR that aren't about treadmills. At that point I remembered that I've seen an interesting article on Reddit just recently about an hydraulic VR suit called VirtuSkin. I think this is a great idea to solve movement in VR space. Here's the link to the article:
http://www.onlivespot.com/2012/08/virtu ... aming.html

Below is a quote from the interesting part of that article:

I'm nuts for virtual reality combined with cloud gaming. But for me head-mounted displays are not enough like it is with other VR enthusiasts that want to see the realization of the Holodeck in their lifetime. I'm entertaining thoughts on do something about that because I have some ideas. Immersing you visually is one thing, but then there is the tactile feedback, the force feedback (I don't mean rumble in controllers), simulating movement like walking, running, piloting an airplane. Many people are speaking about a direct neural connection to the VR (The Matrix), but I think such a thing is pretty far out. I've thought of doing it physically by the help of some high-end hydraulics. It could be a suit with integrated hydraulics, something that resembles Crytek's Nanosuit in looks. I'd call the suit VirtuSkin, well the name is not so important. Some stronger hydraulics would be used to simulate movement like walking, free fall, swimming, hits, etc. Then there would have to be some fine-grained hydraulics integrated into the inner skin of the suit, you could compare these units to pixels in displays, but for pressure input and output. These little units would simulate tactile feedback like touches, wind, grass, leafs. The more dense and precise these units would be, the more finer tactile feedback you could simulate on your skin. I don't yet know how these things would handle orientation, I think the suit would have to be coupled to a hydraulics system that is connected to something that can rotate you to be correctly oriented as in the game world. And as the system would be hydraulics based, the system could also simulate pressure (gases and liquids), moisture and temperature. For instance swimming in warm or cold water, walking through a cold winter landscape, through a dry and hot desert or through a hot moist jungle. There are already protoypes of smell processors that can simulate smells, though I don't think we would want all the smells used with it, of course some like realism.

I think this VirtuSkin suit could solve the problem of how you move through virtual reality be it walking, running, taking stairs, climbing or even sliding around. The suit could simulate touching virtual surfaces. It would basically transport you into another world... into The Matrix... into the Holodeck. I'm sure many of you have seen Avatar in 3D and been wowed by it. Just imagine being in such a suit and being transported onto the world of Pandora, just imagine what experiences James Cameron could make with this suit in mind. Or playing an Alien game in such a suit... then the saying that in space no one can hear you scream takes on a whole other dimension. Of course like me many of you have right away thought about how the porn industry could use these suits, well yeah women should fear the day that you can buy such a suit in the shop... what man would then need women... of course the other way around is as valid. The makers of dildos would suffer quite much. So yeah, if you could show a working prototype of such a suit, the porn industry and everybody else would throw their money after you.

Of course one might say that why would I want to move around a virtual world the same way that I do in reality, when I'm gaming to relax and moving in real life can be very exhausting. Well, of course for people like me that do a lot of sports this could be very exciting and others that don't would get fit because of the great experience the suit would give. Of course a hydraulics based suit could have force assists and the virtual suit would let you think that you're the Hulk because of the assists, you would only use a little energy to initiate movement and the suit would simulate the rest. Of course the suit would have to have some hardware safety measures built in, as hydraulic forces can be very strong... not that virtual reality would become reality and some Call of Duty kiddy on the other end of the world would hack your virtual suit and virtually slit your throat. I wonder if Call of Duty would then have so many players?

What do you think? Is this feasible? If something like that would work this would be really cool, I mean that would be the holodeck.

[zalo]

I'm having a hard time visualizing the usage of a suit like this. Are you laying down? On a mocap stage?

Real touch involves proprioreception. It's the system in your body that can sense the orientation and positions of your limbs without looking. When you touch something, your finger is held back (from going through it), and your body interprets this as "something is there". "Touch" will just tell you what that something feels like. When you hold something, that object has weight, putting pressure on your fingers and arm. Proprioreception senses this, and tells your body "something is weighing down my arm, and I'm grasping it in my hands, and it's this big".

Once we can simulate proprioreception, we'll basically be there to a fully immersive virtual reality. Skin sensation is not required for the visceral feeling of "being there".

(Usage scenario for this would be putting the player into sleep paralysis, measuring muscle impulses with skin electrodes, creating and moving a virtual skeleton, and then stimulating proprioreceptive nerves with skin electrodes. Sight is done with a rift, hearing is done with headphones.)

[cybereality]

Eventually people are going to want more realistic haptics, and having a rumble pack in a gamepad is very limiting. I think there could be a market for full-body suits. I've got the 3rd Space Vest, and it adds a lot of immersion to games (when it works). Of course, its limited to producing gun shot or stab wound feelings, but a more advanced vest could be more varied. Of course, the holy grail is direct neural connection, but we are still some years away from that. So peripheral based VR still has a lot of room to grow before we "jack into the matrix".

[DarkAkuma]

I'm having a hard time visualizing the usage of a suit like this. Are you laying down? On a mocap stage?

Real touch involves proprioreception. It's the system in your body that can sense the orientation and positions of your limbs without looking. When you touch something, your finger is held back (from going through it), and your body interprets this as "something is there". "Touch" will just tell you what that something feels like. When you hold something, that object has weight, putting pressure on your fingers and arm. Proprioreception senses this, and tells your body "something is weighing down my arm, and I'm grasping it in my hands, and it's this big".

Once we can simulate proprioreception, we'll basically be there to a fully immersive virtual reality. Skin sensation is not required for the visceral feeling of "being there".

(Usage scenario for this would be putting the player into sleep paralysis, measuring muscle impulses with skin electrodes, creating and moving a virtual skeleton, and then stimulating proprioreceptive nerves with skin electrodes. Sight is done with a rift, hearing is done with headphones.)

Yea. I'm much more concerned with that than the actual sensations of things like smooth, rough, pleasure, pain, etc. Particularly when you think about things like, sure feeling a stab wound and the sensations of your guts spilling out would be immersive to a combat scenario in a game, but do you REALLY want to experience that? The answer should be "no", and if not, seek help.

I'm not discounting the appeal of more positive sensations, but this illustrates that the bad comes a long with the good. And when gaming can starts causing pain, it could start causing injury, or at the least some measure of trauma. And when games start getting to the point that they can cause trauma, it opens up a whole can of worms and will require new systems for regulation, and stifle the development of the emerging VR industry.

[WiredEarp]

The problem with 'suits' is that it takes time to put them on and off, they have to be fitted to a certain size, you have issues with cleaning and hygiene, etc. This is quite a hassle for anything but military, therapy, and expensive corporate applications. For an arcade, you don't want people to have to take time to put suits on and off. For this reason, I don't see a massive market in suit type feedback systems.

[geekmaster]

The problem with 'suits' is that it takes time to put them on and off, they have to be fitted to a certain size, you have issues with cleaning and hygiene, etc. This is quite a hassle for anything but military, therapy, and expensive corporate applications. For an arcade, you don't want people to have to take time to put suits on and off. For this reason, I don't see a massive market in suit type feedback systems.

Yes, wireless haptic implants are much better.

Actually, I think a suit is fine, as long as it is easy to get in and out, like a clamshell exosuit. For a chair-based exosuit, it could automatically wrap you into its embrace when you relax back into it.

[cybereality]

Somewhat related: back in 1999 Vivid (yes that Vivid) made something called the Cyber Sex Suit. It was basically a wet-suit type material with electrical nodes placed at certain "key" points. I think they actually had a working prototype, but it never made it though FCC certifications. Basically it was too dangerous, people with pace-makers could die, etc. I always wanted one though, would be cool if someone could make something like this that worked.

[geekmaster]

Somewhat related: back in 1999 Vivid (yes that Vivid) made something called the Cyber Sex Suit. It was basically a wet-suit type material with electrical nodes placed at certain "key" points. I think they actually had a working prototype, but it never made it though FCC certifications. Basically it was too dangerous, people with pace-makers could die, etc. I always wanted one though, would be cool if someone could make something like this that worked.

This seems a bit more practical, until we get more effective and safer neural interfaces:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 56&p=98605

Of course, a custom "RealDoll" with endoskeletal motion control would be a good RL prop to use while in VR.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RealDoll

[cybereality]

@geekmaster: Sorry, had to remove the NSFW link you posted. I know I kind of opened that door, but we are not allowed to post pics or links to adult content. Its still OK to discuss things, as long as the language is not graphic. But the forum is supposed to be family friendly, so no pictures or videos of adult nature. Thanks.

[geekmaster]

... no pictures or videos of adult nature. Thanks.

Or links with "WARNING NSFW:" prefix either...

[Parker]

I'm having a hard time visualizing the usage of a suit like this. Are you laying down? On a mocap stage?

Real touch involves proprioreception. It's the system in your body that can sense the orientation and positions of your limbs without looking. When you touch something, your finger is held back (from going through it), and your body interprets this as "something is there". "Touch" will just tell you what that something feels like. When you hold something, that object has weight, putting pressure on your fingers and arm. Proprioreception senses this, and tells your body "something is weighing down my arm, and I'm grasping it in my hands, and it's this big".

Once we can simulate proprioreception, we'll basically be there to a fully immersive virtual reality. Skin sensation is not required for the visceral feeling of "being there".

(Usage scenario for this would be putting the player into sleep paralysis, measuring muscle impulses with skin electrodes, creating and moving a virtual skeleton, and then stimulating proprioreceptive nerves with skin electrodes. Sight is done with a rift, hearing is done with headphones.)

As I understand you would be in a suit that would float freely in the air only by the power of hydraulics. For orientation purposes you would also be on some wheel that would rotate around.

I think that the beauty of hydraulics is that they can simulate for instance a wall. The person in the suit would try to press against the virtual wall, but the hydraulic forces would stop his movement and the person would feel like he is really pressing against a wall because he would of course wear a Rift and see the wall in front of him. The same goes for walking and other virtual activities. A big problem for treadmills are stairs, jumping, climbing, elevation in general. I think hydraulics could solve this.

Another great attribute of hydraulics is that they are a self-contained force distribution system enabled by water, so as the article states it could simulate water pressure and moisture.

Someone also mentioned the issue of cleaning. I think since this is hydraulics based that it could be self-cleaning like for instance shaving machines can clean themselves.

As the article also says the suit would have an inner skin that would simulate weaker forces like the touch of a human's hand or finger. As I understand it this would be analogous to a monitor. But instead you would put on the surface of that monitor all over your body and it would simulate touch and also relay your touches back to the virtual world. The higher the resolution of the let's call them pressels (the equivalent of pixels but for pressure), the more lifelike the simulation of touch.

Basically the whole suit would act like a force receiver and transmitter for virtual worlds.

I don't think I would want to wear such a suit in an arcade as this could get quite embarrassing. Just imagine a virtual girl would touch your private parts and others would see your arousal. I'd love to have something like that at home. If they could sell such suits for under $1,000 that'd be great.

[WiredEarp]

For a chair-based exosuit, it could automatically wrap you into its embrace when you relax back into it.

Thats probably how it will work out in the future IMHO. Of course, if its being used by other people as well, we still run into factors of cleaning/hygiene etc.

Actually, we should probably start a thread about that, as it is an area of concern for shared VR installations.

[geekmaster]

... As the article also says the suit would have an inner skin that would simulate weaker forces like the touch of a human's hand or finger. As I understand it this would be analogous to a monitor. But instead you would put on the surface of that monitor all over your body and it would simulate touch and also relay your touches back to the virtual world. The higher the resolution of the let's call them pressels (the equivalent of pixels but for pressure), the more lifelike the simulation of touch. ...

When Sony patented this, they used the term "tactile pixels". Even if you rename them, you still need to exercise care while working around their patent:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/30/sony ... en-patent/

You are describing essentially the same thing as in Sony's patent, except you have extended that to an extra-wide "Field-of-Feel".

And by the way, it has been known for a very long time (and used in military applications that needed additional "visual" input), then the human body can perceive images stimulated onto the back (vibrating or electroshock backpad) and onto the roof of the mouth (tactile "top denture"). Some children play a game where the read text letters "drawn" on their back with a fingertip by other children. It works on the roof of the mouth too (but that tickles at first). Try it. Other patches of skin on the body are much lower resolution...

Patent suck, especially for OBVIOUS ideas such as this one. I hope the Sony patent is not so broad as to cover all affordable technologies. I have not studied it in detail, so perhaps others may find simple loopholes and workarounds (or useful exclusions) for it.

[Parker]

... As the article also says the suit would have an inner skin that would simulate weaker forces like the touch of a human's hand or finger. As I understand it this would be analogous to a monitor. But instead you would put on the surface of that monitor all over your body and it would simulate touch and also relay your touches back to the virtual world. The higher the resolution of the let's call them pressels (the equivalent of pixels but for pressure), the more lifelike the simulation of touch. ...

When Sony patented this, they used the term "tactile pixels". Even if you rename them, you still need to exercise care while working around their patent:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/30/sony ... en-patent/

You are describing essentially the same thing as in Sony's patent, except you have extended that to an extra-wide "Field-of-Feel".

And by the way, it has been known for a very long time (and used in military applications that needed additional "visual" input), then the human body can perceive images stimulated onto the back (vibrating or electroshock backpad) and onto the roof of the mouth (tactile "top denture"). Some children play a game where the read text letters "drawn" on their back with a fingertip by other children. It works on the roof of the mouth too (but that tickles at first). Try it. Other patches of skin on the body are much lower resolution...

Patent suck, especially for OBVIOUS ideas such as this one. I hope the Sony patent is not so broad as to cover all affordable technologies. I have not studied it in detail, so perhaps others may find simple loopholes and workarounds (or useful exclusions) for it.

He he, Field-of-Feel -> FOF. Perhaps in the future it won't be anymore about FOV as the Rift and its successors will solve this problem, but about FOF.

I wouldn't worry about this patent as it pertains to touch screens. As I understand patent law something violates a patent only when it violates all claims of the patent. Of course that's theory and the actual court case is often times up to idiots to rule over, and companies like Apple and other patent trolls are happy to exploit this. Sony also isn't really a litigious company, at least not in such bizzare ways like Apple for instance.

Makes me think how it's possible that someone hasn't patented a system like the Rift uses to date. Perhaps because the concept of the Rift is so simple that no one thought about it, or they are just waiting to sue when Oculus makes some money.

[coresnake]

DarkAkuma speak for yourself, if I could feel the pain in FPS I'm sure it would heighten the experience by several orders of magnitude. I'm sure many would agree with me too. As long as you have the option to turn it on and off there's no 'controversy'. Just make the suit 18+, I'm a grown ass man I can make my own decisions.

[geekmaster]

DarkAkuma speak for yourself, if I could feel the pain in FPS I'm sure it would heighten the experience by several orders of magnitude. I'm sure many would agree with me too. As long as you have the option to turn it on and off there's no 'controversy'. Just make the suit 18+, I'm a grown ass man I can make my own decisions.

This one uses an array of paintball guns for pain feedback. It is virtually real and literally terrifying:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg8Bh5iI2WY&t=6m45s

[DarkAkuma]

DarkAkuma speak for yourself, if I could feel the pain in FPS I'm sure it would heighten the experience by several orders of magnitude. I'm sure many would agree with me too. As long as you have the option to turn it on and off there's no 'controversy'. Just make the suit 18+, I'm a grown ass man I can make my own decisions.

I would agree that some pain would be fine, and truly add to the immersive experience, and thus be something I too would welcome. But I will stand by my recommendation that you should seek help if you were looking to experience the example I supplied. =p

But the more real/strong sensations are, the more psychical and psychological trauma you would see people developing from the haptics, resulting in bad media, lawsuits, the whole nine yards.

I suppose my stance is certainly not that I don't want haptics providing a whole palette of sensations, but that I'm personally not wanting to see it rushed into. Look at all the issues gaming in general has to deal with right now, just involving visuals like gore, nudity, and to some extent drug use. I guess my thinking is that we could stand to learn from that and approach this more cautiously as the consumer technology matures.

[WiredEarp]

Patent suck, especially for OBVIOUS ideas such as this one.

I do think patents suck nowadays, they seem to only be of use if you have a fair bit of money to defend them, so they seem to often stifle innovation more than they help it. Tactile elements have been around for a long while. I remember back in the early nineties or earlier they had tactile arrays for fingertips, driven by shape changing wire. However, the Sony patent seems to be more for doing the same thing with a touch screen on a handheld, so its possible they have something unique in the mix there technology wise that is patentable. However, that also means that I have doubts that their patent for 'tactile pixels' would cover uses not related to touchscreens on handheld devices, such as tactile suits etc.