Sympathetic light?

[TeraBit]

Hi All,

Although I backed Oculus early on and look forward to my Dev Kit coming soon , I haven't had a chance to try it out personally yet (though it's looking awesome!).

Anyhow I was wondering if there was any way to add a system for sympathetic light to the consumer version. What do I mean by that?
I know that the FOV is very large but I expect that in your peripheral vision you will still see darkness? (Is that true?)

Assuming it is, what if that darkness could be filled with a sympathetic light like the 'Ambilight' system on certain TVs?



Because it's on the periphery it doesn't need much detail, just to be vaguely the same colour as the edge of the screen warp which could probably be achieved by a small array of miniature LEDs behind a dispersal medium.

It's just an idea, but wanted to get some opinions on its applicability to near to eye use.

[KBK]

I was involved in the exact point and place where such ideas came into being.

I thought it was not the best, back then, and I still feel the same way now.

That it is a bug, being touted as a feature.

In the psychology, physiology, and immersive considerations of an HMD, that it is not a thing to pursue. Different considerations than that of a monitor or large screen.

[TeraBit]

That it is a bug, being touted as a feature. In the psychology, physiology, and immersive considerations of an HMD, that it is not a thing to pursue.

Not sure I follow you. Perhaps you could elaborate as to why you feel it doesn't fit with HMDs?

[GeraldT]

I like ambilight - not for every content maybe, but it is a cool and nice feature for some.

I doubt it is necessary for an HMD that is supposed to put you into another reality. I think it is more likely to be annoying and illusion breaking.

[TeraBit]

I doubt it is necessary for an HMD that is supposed to put you into another reality. I think it is more likely to be annoying and illusion breaking.

I think that with a perfect HMD it would indeed be unnecessary, since you would have the content of the screen wrapped around your entire field of view, even your far peripheral vision.

Of course, it may be a moot point if the Rift fills the periphery of your vision (as I mentioned I haven't tried it yet). I think personally I would prefer it to darkness, but that may just be me.

[bugnguts]

Hi All,

I know that the FOV is very large but I expect that in your peripheral vision you will still see darkness? (Is that true?)

I have not tried the prototype myself but I remember some of the reviewers expressing they catch a little black around the peripheral. While many others felt it covered their entire vision. According to Oculus's latest update "Behind the Scenes of the Pilot Run"

#2 Adjustable Assembly
The developer kit now has a geared mechanism that allows you to extend and retract the assembly that holds the screen and the eyecups to position it comfortably. This has a few advantages:
- You can extend the assembly to provide extra clearance for glasses or a larger brow.
- If you’re using either of the shorter eyecups, the lenses will be further away from your eyes. By retracting the assembly, you can bring the lenses closer to your eyes, significantly increasing your field of view.

The closer your eyes the greater field of vision along with a larger 7" screen which I believe they chose in part to increase FOV the view area will likely cover almost the entire human FOV. But even if 100% FOV is reached ambilight could be used especially in dream sequences, story telling and etc. Hmmm Dear Esther with ambilight that would be really cool.

[GeraldT]

If you reach 100%, then you need an ingame feature ... such an ingame feature might be nice anyway...

[zella]

sympathetic light, pah.

check this poop out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re1EatGRV0w

[GeraldT]

ahhh that "will never see the light of day" illumiroom ... I really don't get it why people find it so cool.

[KBK]

sympathetic light, pah.

check this poop out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re1EatGRV0w

of course Microsoft fails to mention that this technique requires an approximate $500 (minimum) projector, a read sensor of high quality, the slowing down of the console in use via loading, and maintenance/integration of added hardware.

I, for one, wire everything. No wireless in this house. Not a chance.

That Microsoft's entire slant is to try and immerse the player.

That is what the Oculus Rift and VR in general, is for.

Microsoft is going to have to let that one slide into the wastebasket. Too much, and done too late.

[zalo]

The illumiroom concept could have worked (and could still work) with some head and gun tracking to make it a one-wall cave. THAT is something I'd pay $500 for.

I'm slightly disappointed that if VR/AR goggles like the rift take off, then there will be no perceived need to these types of systems (which are really really cool if done properly).

[2EyeGuy]

I think there are patent trolls that would attack if we tried that.

I don't know whether it would make the Rift better or worse though. It's something Palmer would have to test on a real rift. The rift doesn't fill your whole vision horizontally. But it's a good sign that people seem to feel like it does. Maybe adding extra light in the periphery would hurt that illusion, or maybe it would help it.

[KBK]

bias lighting was created back in the day in order to falsify a contrast ratio into existence.

that it was created to deal with LCD projectors that had optimistic CR's of 350:1, on a good day.

That people wanted the depth of image and fidelity in all scenes, that the image was so flat..that they rubbed their eyes. A wash out, it was.

Some ..uhmm...person decided that when the lamp was on beside their screen, but just behind it..that the previous greyed out black level seemed blacker, and the image seemingly had more pop.

Not so.

What had happened is that their eye had conformed to a false iris opening adjustment due to the presence of this other light in their visual cueing area (eye reaction for iris setting).... and the image simply seemed to have better blacks.

But ONLY under specific scene brightness and contrast conditions.

That grey screens were being brought in to the projection fray....in order to deal with heightened room black level conditions and poor contrast ratio DLP and LCD projectors, from 1998-200x or so. That I was one of the originals with regard to grey screens, but the true origin was Stewart Filmscreen's Pro work for large venues and the like. To deal with black level washout from lighting.

That is the origin of bias lighting. I was right at ground zero, in the specific threads on the AVS forum where it happened and I was partially responsible for it existing.

The moment it came out as an idea that seemed to take hold, I said that we need to look at better projectors, not put mud in our eyes and brains.... to try and cover up a flaw.

patient: "doc, my one leg it too short."
Doctor: "That's OK, we'll just cut the other one down to the same length"

Not what you would call an optimal solution.

And that, boys and girls, is the origin of sympathetic lighting, or bias lighting.

[STRZ]

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=15130

[KBK]

That's...... getting into a different subject area. The autonomous is responsive to the peripheral.

[TeraBit]

viewtopic.php?f=120&t=15130

Crap... I had this idea years ago, but didn't bother with it because the HMDs I had tried were so low FOV I thought (like GeraldT) that it would be distracting. With the Rift though, I thought that it would be far enough in the periphery to just 'fill in' the darkness on the edge of your vision.

The Ambilight example is a bit misleading, since with a TV the light ends up filling a large part of your vision (it was just the concept I was illustrating), whereas for a high FOV HMD like the rift it would be fill in light on the far peripheral.

When I get my Dev kit, I'll have a better idea of how useful it may or may not have been. At least I know I'm not (completely) crazy.

[Endothermic]

When I get my Dev kit, I'll have a better idea of how useful it may or may not have been.

Gonna try and rig something up if it seems like it may be useful? Just make sure you don't let Apple hear your doing it if you do

[TeraBit]

Gonna try and rig something up if it seems like it may be useful? Just make sure you don't let Apple hear your doing it if you do

May have a go. I'll be very reluctant to mash up my Rift though!

Funny thing is, I was talking to the TDVision people about the same idea a couple of years back, but since their HMD never materialised nothing ever came of it. I may even still have my emails about it somewhere in the archive. Shame I can't use them as leverage in any way. :/

[edit] Found em... Dialog 12/05/2008 22:14 "Ethan Schur" <eschur@tdvisioncorp.com> "Manuel R. Gutierrez Novelo" <mgutierrez@tdvisioncorp.com>

My feeling has been that once the perceived screen size reaches a certain point, we would be unable to see the details at the edges due to the lower detail perception toward the peripheral vision (in a game that would often be the HUD and other detailed textual information).

So the idea was having some extra screen area which could take on the general ambience of the screen edge, without the unnecessary details, I hoped would extend the perceived size, without needing to further increase the size / resolution of the panel. I suppose our eyes aren't rectangular like a LCoS panel
...

[STRZ]

What about two additional "displays" consisting of LED's behind frosted glass on each side of the Rift main panel? And the LED's displaying the colors of the main LCD screen?

[TeraBit]

What about two additional "displays" consisting of LED's behind frosted glass on each side of the Rift main panel? And the LED's displaying the colors of the main LCD screen?

Another quote from my initial contact with TDVision in 2008

If you were to surround the display panel with a translucent material which is able to be illuminated radially by a bank of miniature LEDs in response to the output of the panel, it should be possible to extend the percieved edges of the display perceptually into the peripheral vision.
This would work on similar principles to the 'Ambilight' system found on high end Philips TVs. By extending the perceived edge of the screen into the peripheral vision, it would alleviate the 'feel of looking through a window' without having to extend the actual display panel or include more expensive optics to keep everything undistorted.

So yeah, that was what I initially had in mind. Although saying that, the idea may translate into the actual structure that surrounds your eyes (eye cups) as the eyelashes may stop your eyeballs short of the glass. So some of your peripheral vision will be inside the ski mask?

[STRZ]

So yeah, that was what I initially had in mind. Although saying that, the idea may translate into the actual structure that surrounds your eyes (eye cups) as the eyelashes may stop your eyeballs short of the glass.

lol

So some of your peripheral vision will be inside the ski mask?

Probably. I don't think that the cups take 70° of the FOV you've got. But possibly outside the range where you can perceive color, maybe it's enough having a white illuminated display on each side. Maybe even overlapping the bezel of the LCD panel and blacked out part of the LCD due to warping.

[squibbfire]

Isn't one of the big selling points of the Oculus is its ginormous FOV? Isn't the goal to get rid of black spots or lines?

[TeraBit]

Isn't one of the big selling points of the Oculus is its ginormous FOV? Isn't the goal to get rid of black spots or lines?

Yes. Compared to all HMDs I have tried, the FOV of the Rift is night and day. The best one I have tried to date is the Sony HMZ-T1, which is (only) 45 Deg compared to the 110 Deg FOV of the Rift..

Speaking of the Sony HMD, it's a nice screen, but not really immersive.

The Rift is more than twice as big in terms of FOV, but the fact is, you are looking into a (big) lens, separated from your eyeball by a small space.
This means that you will get some peripheral perception of the inside of the mask even if every part of the lens projects light into your eyeball.

So there are two ways to look at it, any area inside the view of the lens, not catered for by the LCD screen (and since the display is warped into a ball, I expect this is not a problem for the rift), then there is the inside of the mask on the user side of the lens that would be dark (by design). It's hard to know without trying it.

Anyone who has used the Rift able to comment on any perception of inside the mask?

Also, I don't know if Apple's patent covers light diffusion the other side of the lens (i.e. the inside of the mask).

[squibbfire]

I am having a problem understanding what would be there since I have not tried this device yet. Would larger lenses and a bigger LCD help? Maybe one large 8 shaped lens that is all clear? I'm sure when you cross your eyes you might catch a black spot between the lenses. Which I think could be eventually eliminated as well.

[TeraBit]

I am having a problem understanding what would be there since I have not tried this device yet.

I'm in the same position. But to some extent you could think of it like.. um... Sunglasses!

Get a pair of sunglasses and push them as close to your eyes as you can. They take up a very large part of your FOV, but you can still see out the edges from the corner of your eyes. So I suspect that the effect is similar, except you would have darkness there in a rift, since the sides are blocked off.

Now it may be more immersive to have it dark, but I was interested in projecting a sympathetic light on that area, so as to make it feel more as if you were surrounded. Otherwise the effect might be similar to if you were wearing a hooded top (or come to think of it, as Ski Mask!), where the periphery is blocked.

Anyway, this is all theory at the moment, just an idea.

[STRZ]

Isn't one of the big selling points of the Oculus is its ginormous FOV? Isn't the goal to get rid of black spots or lines?

You'll barely notice the black spots having 110° FOV. They're way out in your periphal vision. Eliminating this is only the icing on the cake and not critical for the "beeing in the game" sensation. A racedriver or soldier would have even less FOV through their helmets.

[KBK]

Gonna try and rig something up if it seems like it may be useful? Just make sure you don't let Apple hear your doing it if you do

May have a go. I'll be very reluctant to mash up my Rift though!

Funny thing is, I was talking to the TDVision people about the same idea a couple of years back, but since their HMD never materialised nothing ever came of it. I may even still have my emails about it somewhere in the archive. Shame I can't use them as leverage in any way. :/

[edit] Found em... Dialog 12/05/2008 22:14 "Ethan Schur" <eschur@tdvisioncorp.com> "Manuel R. Gutierrez Novelo" <mgutierrez@tdvisioncorp.com>

My feeling has been that once the perceived screen size reaches a certain point, we would be unable to see the details at the edges due to the lower detail perception toward the peripheral vision (in a game that would often be the HUD and other detailed textual information).

So the idea was having some extra screen area which could take on the general ambience of the screen edge, without the unnecessary details, I hoped would extend the perceived size, without needing to further increase the size / resolution of the panel. I suppose our eyes aren't rectangular like a LCoS panel
...

To challenge the apple patent, all one as to do is substantiate that it is in the realm of 'prior art'.

Most patents are carefully phrased in order to avoid that pitfall, via additional claims that are co-joined (combined clauses, etc).

Then gird yourself to go to court. Good luck on that end.

Experts in these area are pretty thin on the ground, and there is a chance, maybe, that the given patent examiner was actually involved in the field and had prior or wide knowledge. But only a chance.

The problem with sympathetic or a similar thing..bias lighting, is exactly the reason behind bias lighting.

That it destroys contrast ratio in the viewed image proper...it makes it harder to see. It will make you squint.

[squibbfire]

Isn't one of the big selling points of the Oculus is its ginormous FOV? Isn't the goal to get rid of black spots or lines?

You'll barely notice the black spots having 110° FOV. They're way out in your periphal vision. Eliminating this is only the icing on the cake and not critical for the "beeing in the game" sensation. A racedriver or soldier would have even less FOV through their helmets.

Well yeah but isn't that to keep death out...aka bullets/ debris.
Would there be a way to eliminate that still yet??

Grrr I like need one to put on my head now! haha