Real-life collision detection with pneumatic gloves?

[Randomoneh]

Is anyone aware of any attempts to create a mechanical (pneumatic?) rig that would be attached to your arms and fingers and would prevent your arms and fingers from reaching certain points in 3D space, thus [along with hand tracking] enabling the illusion of touching the in-game objects? First, it could be just pneumatic gloves which would allow you to feel the objects in your hands. Later, whole concept could be applied to arms.


This guy is playing a game where he has to push in the right brick in the wall to reveal a hidden passage. Pneumatic or hydraulic system in his rig (attached to his arms, invisible in this photograph) is actually stopping his arms from moving through virtual bricks. Once he finds the right, "pushable" brick, system will his hand to move forward, pushing the brick in game.

[virror]

First vote: Of course!

[cybereality]

Yeah, I think this would be awesome!

It can also be done on the top of the hand (but I think the image you posted looks easier to build).

[Randomoneh]

An image from research paper A Pneumatic Glove and Immersive Virtual Reality Environment for Hand Rehabilitative Training After Stroke:


@Cyber - that looks awesome! I've Googled "cybergrasp", found some interesting images.

[snorelab]

Would you need an air compressor in your home to use one of these?

Edit: I voted absolutely. I would wear an entire exoskeleton.

[colocolo]

Thats cool. Novint has developed something like this.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV3j2Yxv7jY[/youtube]
An whole exoskeleton would be ideal. also somthing like hypersonic for giving
your hands touch sensivity.
Only imagine the value for small children. Oculus Rift combined with AR and the children could have all toys they ever wanted in their hands.

[Randomoneh]

Wow, you have to see this. Check out 3:20 :
[youtube-hd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2nuXX2thBA#t=200s[/youtube-hd]

I've just realized that a game glitch could literally break your arm!

[RoadKillGrill]

I've thought about just adding small bladders inside gloves to give pressure, resistance and possibly temperature feedback.
For temperature it world pretty much need to be a hydraulic.

For basic pressure you could probably use CO2 cartridges if the thought of an air compressor is too noisy. It would also make it a bit more of a self contained unit.

[cybereality]

Nice find, Randomoneh. Sure that setup costs an arm and a leg, but would be the best.

[virror]

Wow, thats the best VR glove i have seen by far : D

[colocolo]

Although it aims another purpose, the exohand from festo could do the same.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swpJ_0EUUrM[/youtube]

[PasticheDonkey]

I've just realized that a game glitch could literally break your arm!

just have real mechanical constraints for the system. so it'd break itself before it could break you.

[langmyersknow]

Instead of using pneumatic gloves that use air pressure, and then requiring a air pressure pump.

Wouldn't it be better to use a glove that has fluids in them that can harden on electrical currents.

Basically, the gloves would have a thin layer of these liquids on the instead of the glove, when an object is touched in the virtual world, the electricity would fire in certain portions of the glove, that would harden the liquid , this would prevent the person from closing their first or whatever. ...

Here's the wiki page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrorheological_fluid

What do you guys think ?

[colocolo]

i havent heard about it , but seems to be something, is there any proof of concept video.
Also, for a exoskeleton u could use electroactive polymers.
The problem till now is that they need high voltage (like 2000 V) and are not strong enough, but there is still room for improvement.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhRwqCT09KM[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIh8L59sd30[/youtube]

[Cromfel]

Is anyone aware of any attempts to create a mechanical (pneumatic?) rig that would be attached to your arms and fingers that would prevent your arms and fingers from reaching certain points in 3D space, thus [along with hand tracking] enabling the illusion of touching the in-game objects?

There is something with pneumatics:

Wearable Haptic Glove with McKibben Actuators and Optical Tracking for Virtual Environments

For touching and manipulating objects in virtual environments conveniently, wearable haptic interfaces are required. In this paper, a concept of combining a McKibben pneumatic muscle based wearable haptic glove with an optical hand tracking system is presented.

[GeraldT]

anything based on pneumatics is doomed (for everyday VR). There need to be other solutions - but my guess is, that we will reach a neural interface before something usable will reach us in the force-feedback-gloves department.

[Alejux]

I really don't believe the future is in the pneumatic gloves.

I only see this taking off when we have an extremely light and seemingly uncomplicated glove. I say seemingly, because while it may look like a normal glove, it should have electrical vibrations on the fingertips to simulate textures and a sort of contracting fabric (like an artificial muscle) to perform a sense of resistance, with low power requirements.

[PasticheDonkey]

anything based on pneumatics is doomed (for everyday VR). There need to be other solutions - but my guess is, that we will reach a neural interface before something usable will reach us in the force-feedback-gloves department.

all commercial force feedback systems (novint falcon, steering wheels and flight sticks) use electric motors instead of pneumatics. they use pneumatics for motion controlled seats ,simulators, etc tho. things that are heavy.

[Leahy]

I wondered if this tech http://www.disneyresearch.com/project/teslatouch/ could be incorporated into one of these gloves at least in the fingertips

[MSat]

A simpler solution may be to have small string guides along the top of each finger (sort of like a fishing pole) with one end of the string attached to each finger tip, and the other end to a servo motor. If you want more complex articulation control, then you could have multiple strings per finger attached at various points that correspond to certain finger joints.

I think even rudimentary grasp control would be pretty compelling. It's not like you have all that accurate a sensation in your hands when you hold items with gloves anyway. Definitely cool.

[geekmaster]

A simpler solution may be to have small string guides along the top of each finger (sort of like a fishing pole) with one end of the string attached to each finger tip, and the other end to a servo motor. If you want more complex articulation control, then you could have multiple strings per finger attached at various points that correspond to certain finger joints.

I think even rudimentary grasp control would be pretty compelling. It's not like you have all that accurate a sensation in your hands when you hold items with gloves anyway. Definitely cool.

I experimented with that three years ago. I ran nylon fishing line through the top of knitted stretch gloves. I used hobby servos to drive the lines. It was done to help a family member who had paralyzed fingers from severed nerves. He could make a fist but could not open his hand.

The first prototype used rubber bands instead of servos, but I had servos lying around so it was inevitable that they had to be tried. Unfortunately it chafed the knuckles. It was not refined because he regained sufficient use of his fingers before it was completed. But it was a great proof of concept that I always wanted to get back to. Unfortunately, the servos got repurposed for other projects.

I think it really could be used for haptic feedback, and even extended to arms and beyond. It would be essentially a soft exoskeletal control system that relies on the wearer's bones and joints for support. When I get my Rift I will probably be tempted to resurrect that dormant project.

[MSat]

A simpler solution may be to have small string guides along the top of each finger (sort of like a fishing pole) with one end of the string attached to each finger tip, and the other end to a servo motor. If you want more complex articulation control, then you could have multiple strings per finger attached at various points that correspond to certain finger joints.

I think even rudimentary grasp control would be pretty compelling. It's not like you have all that accurate a sensation in your hands when you hold items with gloves anyway. Definitely cool.

I experimented with that three years ago. I ran nylon fishing line through the top of knitted stretch gloves. I used hobby servos to drive the lines. It was done to help a family member who had paralyzed fingers from severed nerves. He could make a fist but could not open his hand.

The first prototype used rubber bands instead of servos, but I had servos lying around so it was inevitable that they had to be tried. Unfortunately it chafed the knuckles. It was not refined because he regained sufficient use of his fingers before it was completed. But it was a great proof of concept that I always wanted to get back to. Unfortunately, the servos got repurposed for other projects.

I think it really could be used for haptic feedback, and even extended to arms and beyond. It would be essentially a software exoskeletal control system that relies on the wearer's bones and joints for support. When I get my Rift I will probably be tempted to resurrect that dormant project.

You ARE the geekmaster!

Chafing should be easy enough to resolve by, you know, not running the line through the stitching I'm teasing. Hobby servos are great - easy to work with, and surprisingly strong. I just might re-purpose my servos AGAIN for this (consequently, my heli hasn't flown in years). A haptic exoskeleton system would be really sweet, and gloves would be a great starting point.

[Direlight]

People are on it, I do A LOT of VR research.

"It is the first time that you can feel images in the air," said Norio Nakamura, senior scientist with the research team at the National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology. "You can have the sense of touch like poking a rubber ball or stretching a sticky rice cake" when manipulating images, he told AFP by telephone.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news202021302.html#jCp

[geekmaster]

You ARE the geekmaster!

Yeah, that's what they said in the Kindle Developer's Corner forum over at MobileRead, long before my 5,000th post. Now they just call me GM. I have not been very active over there since I joined the Oculus Rift kickstarter and started devoting most of my free time browsing the VR forums over here.


I still plan to build a Kindle cluster computer with eink wall using the 100+ eink kindles I own. And I plan to convert some of my trippy eink animation (dithermation) demos to 3D for the Rift. Experiencing that in 3D will be awesome.

Chafing should be easy enough to resolve by, you know, not running the line through the stitching

I was planning to try some thin flexible tubing over the knuckles to fix that.

A haptic exoskeleton system would be really sweet, and gloves would be a great starting point.

Just think of the haptic feedback you could get from an iron man suit.


And I would not rule out pneumatic gloves just yet. I have a sizable collection of electrically actuated pneumatic valves, manifolds, tubing, and end effectors. Using them for haptic feedback sounds like a good project. I also have hundreds of stepper motors of assorted sizes, and nearly 100 hobby servos, so we could go that route too, or a hybrid mix.

[zalo]

It might be a good idea to try a more solid state system.

Senseg had a haptic touchscreen technology that altered the texture of the touch screen with an oscillating (vibrating) electrostatic current around the point of touch. They claimed that they could change the friction of the screen.

If we're lucky, though, you can feel the alteration in the screen's texture without having to slide your finger over the surface. Then it's a simple (!) matter of integrating the circuit into a skin-tight glove for haptic feedback.

Also, for the servo glove, maybe try wearing two gloves at once with the modified glove on the outside?

[geekmaster]

Electrostatic (or vibrotactile or other technology) feedback is needed to feel texture, but we still need force feedback to sense weight, acceleration, viscosity, a swift kick in the groin, and such other extreme sensations to truly stimulate in game anxiety and overt panic attacks. How can we have "Killer VR" without it?

[zalo]

Weight, Acceleration, and Viscosity are all pretty similar, but the "swift quick in the groin" effect can be approximated (weakly) with these thingies:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoztAbSlpfU[/youtube]

In its essence, it's a microphone and a transducer, but it's surprisingly effective at conveying haptic cues. Because of how it works, it's better for putting into props. I tried it at Siggraph and I came away thoroughly impressed. This is the device that should have been in the Wii remote. Sadly, because they custom 3D print each of these little kits, they cost a pretty penny (can't remember exactly).



I also have another idea that can kill two birds with one stone, but it probably won't ever become popular. Because you can simulate the deprivation of a sense with a uniform stimulus (the ganzfeld effect), you can put people in special immobilization chairs made of pillows that will lock the motion of each limb on every axis. Then you measure the pressure each limb exerts on the restraints. Then you integrate that pressure over time to move the skeleton of the virtual player. The HMD's view will then confirm the illusion by showing the motion of the limbs. Pow! Locomotion, motion tracking, haptics etc are all made trivial because the body never changes position!

It can be downscaled for specific limbs, like hands and arms only as well. Imagine putting your hand in a boxing glove and trying to open your fingers. Then actually seeing your fingers open through your HMD! I'd like to think the idea has some merit.