TriDef support for Oculus Rift

[brantlew]

I moved this out of the main thread because it's getting so much traffic right now.

@PalmerTech: A lot of activity on the Rift in the last couple of days, and you're probably having trouble keeping up with everything, so before this topic gets buried under many pages of posts, I wanted to renew the discussion about campaigning DDD to include sbs warping support for the Rift. What are your thoughts on that?

Here is the discussion:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 195#p74029

And here were some of my comments:

In the long range an open source solution is best for everyone but might take at least 6 months to become even partially workable. There are hundreds of details to research, implement, debug, and then customize per game. Tridef already has a solid, tested solution in place and existing support for hundreds of games. They would only need to add the final warping transform to their side-by-side view. As a beta feature my guess is that it would take them a week or less to implement this.

We should at least ask them whether they would consider adding experimental beta support. A campaign on their forum would be a simple way to voice our interest in this feature. A petition and a pre-release unit from Palmer might be all that is required to motivate them. But we are still a very small percentage of their customers which is why I also suggested a kick-starter campaign.

We should get PalmerTech's thoughts and blessings before we initiate this, since he might be called upon to advise Tridef and supply technical support and hardware to them.

[Guspaz]

I'm probably missing something important here, but why does this require fancy software?

My understanding is that to get the Rift going well in 3D, you need to output a side by side image, and then warp each half to account for the optics.

The first part seems easy, existing drivers from nVidia or whatnot seem to be able to do side-by-side 3D already, and any game properly supporting 3D vision is going to have worked the kinks out of stuff like UI depth.

The second part, the warping, seems easy too. You should be able to do the warping in a post-processing shader, and there already seem to be tools intended to inject post-processing shaders out there. Opensource too, like "FXAA Post Process Injection" (http://www.assembla.com/spaces/fxaa-pp-inject/wiki)

So basically, what I'm asking is, is this actually more complicated than just setting up the drivers on a machine and writing a post-processing shader?

[brantlew]

You understand the problem correctly Guspaz. I guess I'm not sure as to whether you could inject a post processing shader on top of something like Tridef (which is itself an injector). Could you chain these applications like that? Also would you inject a single-view warper into the pipe-line of each stereoscopic view, or would you have to create a more complicated shader that post processed the side-by-side view together? Anybody got a clear idea of how to work this? Maybe it's easy? But it's also easy to ask TriDef to do it. We should definitely attack it from all angles.

[Guspaz]

I don't know, what is TriDef? What does it do that the nVidia drivers' built-in side-by-side 3D support doesn't get you? What is the purpose for its existence?

It sounds like any computer should be able to drive the Oculus Rifts without the warping correction out-of-the-box (since sbs is supported by the videocard drivers), and that getting the warping is the only missing piece of the puzzle...

[brantlew]

I'm not an expert but my understanding is that TriDef is similar to the nVidia 3D driver. They both basically tap into the normal 2D rendering pipeline to generate an offset second view for stereoscopic display and then generate the proper 3D transmission frame. Since these drivers are already hooked into the rendering pipeline, it makes an obvious place to insert the warp transform.

If another driver could be layered on top to perform post-warping of the SBS frame, then that might make for a good solution as well. I guess the benefit of doing it that way would be cross-compatibility for TriDef, IZ3D, and nVidia output. On the other hand, a warp filter on the finished 3D frame can only work at the output resolution of the finished image (which is very low for the Rift) and so the results might not be as good as if you applied the warp transform further up in the chain during the render projection of each view.

But I've only got a bird's eye view of these things... Anybody got any real engineering experience to lend to this conversation?

[Guspaz]

I'm just not sure what purpose TriDef serves if both nVidia and AMD's video drivers have built-in 3D support. What benefit is there to relying on a third-party hack instead of using the 3D support integrated into the graphics card drivers?

The ideal solution here is for nVidia and AMD to build this support into their drivers directly, so that everything works out-of-box

[bobv5]

As far as I can tell, the AMD 3d output choices are quite limited.

Nividia, is nvidia. I won't go into it here, but they made some choices that go against my moral views. (search for nvidia shutter glasses drivers, for anything other than approved nvidia hardware...)

[brantlew]

I think a lot of people prefer the 3D implementations and the flexibility of TriDef drivers over the other vendors.

The ideal solution here is for nVidia and AMD to build this support into their drivers directly, so that everything works out-of-box

Good luck on that

[PalmerTech]

First off, AMD 3D output only works with games that are coded specifically to support it, it is not a generic/universal solution like Nvidia 3D Vision.

Secondly, Nvidia 3D Vision does not support side-by-side output, as far as I know. If anyone has a source that shows it does, would love to see it.

The problem with both of those solutions is that the SBS image is rendered as two 1280x800 images which are both squashed to fit onto one panel. That means the aspect ratio is incorrect, and everything is stretched out vertically. On top of that, you are wasting a lot of performance and graphical quality by essentially rendering double the resolution you need to, then scaling it down. IZ3D has a way to hack together a proper aspect ratio, but considering that they are basically a dead company, relying on them seems like a bad idea.

So in summary, yes, proper support from TriDef would be great, definitely a good thing to push for! Head tracking is still going to be wonky, but hey, better than nothing. Maybe I should send them an email first, see what they say? They are probably more likely to respond once they see a successful Kickstarter going forward, not sure if I should wait until the launch.

[brantlew]

From the main thread...

Existing drivers like IZ3D and TriDef DDD drivers will allow things to work mostly correctly. IZ3D has a mode that allows for proper aspect ratio that only works for some games, and distortion can be taken care of with Nthusim.

@PalmerTech: Can you give a few more details about how you setup Nthusim? The web-site is pretty lite. Also...$289? Ouch!

So in summary, yes, proper support from TriDef would be great, definitely a good thing to push for! Head tracking is still going to be wonky, but hey, better than nothing. Maybe I should send them an email first, see what they say?

Cool. If you need us to bombard the support forum with requests, I'm sure we can accommodate that.

[PalmerTech]

I am not around the computer I had it set up on, but I believe I had it set to "dual projector" on Nthusim, which gives you two windows that you can adjust on a single screen (They assume you are using spanning hardware for multiple displays). Then, I set a custom resolution in Windows of 640x800, and got IZ3D to render in crosseye mode using that correct aspect ratio.

Unfortunately, that mode never had the bugs worked out before IZ3D disappeared, so it does not work with every game.

[cybereality]

@brantlew: Well it is possible to chain injection drivers. For example, you can use FRAPS with the Nvidia or DDD driver (though not with IZ3D on my machine). Also with my experiments with my driver I have (mistakenly) run it with Nvidia's driver enabled and they both run simultaneously. I've also (again by accident) run IZ3D and Nvidia drivers at the same time and got 4D!!! No seriously, there were 4 images all flashing on top of each other at once. So yes, it can be done, though you may get weird racing conditions depending on which driver injects first. I could try adding a warping only mode on my driver, as that sounds pretty easy to get done. That way we could use it in combination with DDD/IZ3D, at least until I can get all the full stereo features working good. I will at least investigate this and see if its possible.

@Guspaz: Nvidia no longer supports side-by-side with their driver since many years ago. Currently they most advertise support for their brand of 3D glasses (3D Vision) and somewhat unofficially the Zalman interleaved monitors and Mitsubushi DLP TVs. In addition, they have 3D TV Play, which is for HDMI 1.4a TVs but all of these modes are useless for the RIFT. AMD does not have 3D drivers, they support an "open" standard which really just amounts to DDD for gaming at this point (since IZ3D has gone under). Both IZ3D and DDD have 3D drivers that will support side-by-side output, so they will be the best fit for this HMD. However in this mode they render at half-resolution (squished) which is not the right aspect ratio. IZ3D has an experimental mode to render the correct aspect but I've never tried it and heard its buggy. Neither software will do the pre-warping, which would be nice but isn't a total show-stopper. Whatever the case, I doubt Nvidia will be much help.

[brantlew]

I could try adding a warping only mode on my driver, as that sounds pretty easy to get done. That way we could use it in combination with DDD/IZ3D, at least until I can get all the full stereo features working good. I will at least investigate this and see if its possible.

That would be great! And would add an incredible amount of value to the Rift.

[Guig2000]

I don't know, what is TriDef? What does it do that the nVidia drivers' built-in side-by-side 3D support doesn't get you? What is the purpose for its existence?

It sounds like any computer should be able to drive the Oculus Rifts without the warping correction out-of-the-box (since sbs is supported by the videocard drivers), and that getting the warping is the only missing piece of the puzzle...

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=13814
http://www.mtbs3d.com/gallery/displayim ... ?pos=-4459

[Okta]

Tridef support for the Rift would be a huge boon. I see someone created a thread with that question on there forum which is currently occupied by crickets. It would have been awesome if Palmer had approached for driver support and included it as an option in the Kickstarter package. Maybe not too late?

[brantlew]

Palmer mentioned that he contacted Tridef, but they were unwilling to work with him. But that was a couple months ago. They may be a bit more interested now that Oculus has taken off. It's actually probably a bit bad for their business model because the Trifdef product is based on the industry's general apathy towards 3D. If the industry starts using a native stereo SDK, then that diminishes the usefulness of Tridef - although it still be great to have legacy support for their entire catalog.

[Dilip]

Why TRIDEF denied is beyond understanding its just put additional functionality in their already existing code which i am very sure must be modular ( Nothing is liner nowadays) as they know their own codes functionality its way too easy for them to put one more item(code) to support one more product in their already vast catalogue of supported goods

There are nearly hundred VERY GOOD games which have very good replay value when played as being in game and some of them are All Time Best kind of titles.

When they make a middleware why can't they add this one also, only reason seems to me is they have miss counted VR TSUNAMY for Normal tide.

Palmer You must approch again once you have your more polished "Developer Kit" ready

They should have no reason to fear from Native 3D as

1. It will be applied to new games only and not all existed till this moment

2. It is hardware which they are going to support not software which if backed
by them can replace/remove them in longer term

3. Not all developers will adopt Native 3D

4. Nice working middlewear is always a good option compared to convince every developer to adopt some SDK

[Neil]

Hi Guys,

I've been encouraging DDD to support Oculus for some time, and I know that DDD is one of the backers for the Oculus Rift and is awaiting their prototype to work with. I don't think they can comment on support until they have something in their hands - but I know they have been keeping a sharp eye on this and our positive community developments for some time.

Regards,
Neil

[space123321]

This is a very encouraging comment - thank you - as DDD support would be simply outstanding!

[brantlew]

Certainly moving forward, it would be great if all game developers implemented native Oculus SDK support. But nothing would have a bigger impact in the next year than if Tridef (nVidia, etc..) decided to include Rift support in their injection drivers. Having Rift support for the entire Tridef game catalog would be incredible.

[Okta]

Thanks for the update Neil. Really hoping DDD come through with this.

[Evenios]

I hope this is the case and they do add support shortly after the Dev Kits ship. That would be wonderful. For me the idea is mainly to explore the world of a 3d space and to me while learning Unity 3D might be helpful (i may like to make some sort of 3d demo for it) to me it may just be fun to load up a game like Garys Mod /Unreal Tournament and just load up the ton of user made maps for it and just run around and explore it in 3d ..expecally with garys mod you can play around with adding objects/ npcs in real time and see the cool effect of walking around them in VR that would be so cool in itself . another game i hope to have support of it would be Minecraft another game that would be perfect to explore . heres hoping they work it out!