Samsung DLP, iZ3D, or Zalman... The clock is ticking!!!

Post by **MadRussian** » Thu May 22, 2008 2:17 pm

Hello. Great to have discovered MTBS and your enthusiastic community!

(I guess my community too now!) Looked through a number of threads here and have found lots of great info, and did some searches. Here's my situation:

I'm a long time fan of S3D... I've always loved IMAX 3D movies and even tried many years ago the 3D Relavator glasses on my CRT at ~120Hz. I had a heck of a good time using them, getting the full emersion of S3D. Playing Jedi Knight, those blaster lasers would make you actually duck as they came out of the screen. Freaked some of friends out... it was great!

But after a short time those glasses made my eyes feel like I had roughed them up with some sand paper. Honest to God, I think I may have even slightly damaged the vision in my right eye (can't say that totally for sure though, if so it was minor). Main point here is that while I had a blast with them, stereo glasses on a CRT was obviously not a long term solution for me.

Several months ago, I took note of Samsung and Mitsubishi's DLPs that supposedly could deliver rock solid 3D. Just a couple of weeks ago I found the community here and thus discovered the relatively new passive 3D monitor solutions... iZ3D and Zalman. (Thanks guys!)

So the long and short of it is I am back in the market for a S3D gaming experience. Rather I should say I am on a ticking time clock now. See, the other day I was taking a look at the DLPs at the local Best Buy and ran into the general manager of the store. (I am located in central USA). As there was next to no one in the store at the time (which is odd for Best Buy), he cut me a heck of a deal on the latest model 56" Samsung DLP (colorwheel style, not LED. If anyone is interested, I'll find and post the model #). Even though I hadn't yet settled on a S3D solution, considering the deal I was getting, I went ahead and made the purchase, knowing I had a full 30 days from the date of the sale (May 15) to cancel out and get a full refund. I can hear the clock now: tick tock, tick tock...

Here's what my research has yielded so far. Please note I haven't have the opportunity to demo any of the solutions. (i.e. Please correct if I'm way off on anything, to ensure I'm not spreading any misinformation. Also, my terminology may be a bit off... been out of the loop for a while

)

Samsung DLP:
Screen and Resolution: 50", 56", 61", Rock solid image @ 1920x1080 @ 120Hz (60 per eye). Resolution can be lowered, but the image size on the screen will reduce by a corresponding amount. (Resolution is "halved" in S3D due to checkerboard format?)
Ghosting: No ghosting (or almost unnoticeable).
Flicker: Anyone?
Drivers: TriDef by DDD, only support a handful of games, cost ~$5 US each. Drivers are not as mature as other solutions (run slower in many cases.)
Product Support and Future: I'm assuming Samsung support is good. (I got a service plan from Best Buy just to be safe.) Samsung has pioneered S3D on HDTV... but will they continue the charge? DDD - Anyone know how often TriDef adds a new game? Anyone know if the TriDef drivers are becoming more optimized with each release (i.e. more FPS)?

iZ3D:
Screen and Resolution: 22" screen @ 1680x1050. From what I understand, iZ3D is not fixed at any particular resolution. (A huge plus over the other two solutions, in terms of scalable FPS performance.) Does anyone know if resolution is "halved" with iZ3D or not? If so, vertical or horizontal?
Ghosting: Bad ghosting (can be reduced, but not eliminated, through various techniques, including tipping the monitor. also, some report you just "get used to it" and your brain starts to filter it out)
Flicker: Assuming none, because it's passive. Can anyone comment?
Drivers: iZ3D custom drivers, support many many games. 2D elements such as HUD are easily viewable.
Product Support and Future: Best overall support of any solution hand down, from everything I've seen.

Zalman
Screen and Resolution: 22" screen @ 1680x1050 fixed. (Vertical resolution is "halved" in S3D due to line over line format)
Ghosting: Minimal ghosting (<1%)
Flicker: Assuming none, because it's passive. Can anyone comment?
Drivers: Love em or hate em, nVidia has finally released new stereo drivers. Only works with Vista. Tons of games supported. Reports of original S3D nVidia Drivers on the Zalman having difficulty with 2D elements while in 3D mode. Someone with the 22" Zalman please tell me, has nVidia handled these 2D issues with the new S3D drivers?
Product Support and Future: nVidia and Zalman are huge companies that aren't going anywhere. However, based on the multi-year hiatus in S3D driver support from nVidia, followed up by the "deal" with Zalman (hanging many S3D users out to dry), this S3D monitor arguably has the best chance of ending up as an ultra expensive paper-weight on your desk.

Here's the big question right now for me:
Which one of these three solutions is easiest on the eyes???

Please, by all means any and all help here is welcome. However, if you are merely speculating and don't actually have any of the three, do a favor and please say so?

Indeed, eliminating eye strain is first and foremost on my list. As things stand right now, here is my thinking and strategy:

I hate to say this, but even with the outstanding support and lowest cost in the group, considering my eye sensitivity, the ghosting of the iZ3D pretty much eliminates this choice for me. (I do think it has got to be the IDEAL solution for many others though. And I do greatly appreciate what they are doing for S3D as a whole... they rock!)

As far as the Samsung DLP goes, I've started to chalk up some negatives. First off, there are far better HDTVs now-a-days in terms of brightness and viewing angle (although this is reflected in the reduced cost of these DLP models). Then there's the TriDef drivers only supporting select games and supposedly not being as mature (FPS wise). On top of this you need to push a higher resolution to boot (1920x1080 = 2073600 pixels vs. 1680x1050 = 1764000 pixels). Not to take anything away from DDD. I firmly beleive that S3D users everywhere will eventually benefit in one way or another from the work they are doing today.

So in summary, I'm starting to really like the idea of the Zalman 22". I don't mind the additional cost over the iZ3D, I really like the idea of light, circular polarized glasses (vs. heavier shutter glasses with the DLP or losing quality when you move you head as with iZ3D's linear polarization.) Plus, and I cringe to say this... I am an nVidia shareholder of many years. Please don't flog me!

For the record, I do not endorse their removal of support for so many of our S3D fanatics. I guess they are beholden to shareholders just like all other publicly traded companies.

Wow, looking back, I've got a whopper of a post here. If you're still with me, thanks for sticking it out! Any info will help out and thanks in advance. Hopefully I'll be able to make a final solution sometime soon.

After all, the clock for me is ticking...

Post by **Neil** » Thu May 22, 2008 2:46 pm

I'm not advocating one over the other, just don't be so quick to rule options out based on word of mouth. This ghosting talk tends to be from people who don't actually own the monitor or have seen it in crowded places without the opportunity to view it at the correct eye level and customized settings.

Maybe a wiser measure would be the satisfaction rate of existing customers? Their experiences having owned the solution? How many have returned it? Customer support? Plans for the future? Etc. etc.

I'm not big on hearsay reviews hurting products because these are important purchase decisions. You should be able to find a wealth of information here from qualified people.

Regards,
Neil

Post by **MadRussian** » Thu May 22, 2008 3:11 pm

Neil,

Thanks for the reply! I certainly make it a point to only take advice from folks who have actually used a given product. Everything I have gleaned was from a review or post from someone saying they owned the particular product. Unfortunately, there's not a huge number of reviews out there.

My post above is an attempt to gauge the satisfaction rate of existing customers, their experiences having owned the solution, how many have returned it, etc, etc, just as you advocate. My intent was that hopefully users of the various products might provide some answers here that will assist me in making an informed decision.

Specifically, I'd like to know two things (from folks who own the products).

1. Which solution delivers the least amount of eye strain over time?
2. Have the latest nVidia S3D drivers taken care of the 2D issues people were reporting while playing in S3D mode with the older nVidia drivers.

Any info relating to these questions or otherwise would be great!

Thanks!
MadRussain

(btw- Neil, I hope you are not suggesting that my above post is a "hearsay review". Just thought if I assembled and posted what I've gleaned from my research, then others more informed than I could take a look and point out any misconceptions I may have... again to help me make an informed decision on my purchase.

)

Post by **Neil** » Thu May 22, 2008 3:13 pm

No worries.

Regards,
Neil

Post by **cybereality** » Thu May 22, 2008 3:53 pm

Hey, MadRussian, welcome to the board.

I'm in a similar position, looking for a widescreen stereo 3d monitor. Comfort is a big factor for me too. I'm using a VR920 headset currently, and it has a nice stereo image, but I can't wear the thing for more than like an hour or so without taking a break. I figure a passive solution would be less strenuous on the eyes than an active. I'm pretty sure its the flicker thats a big cause of this. The other cause of headaches is buggy drivers where stuff is doubled up on screen and out of whack (I'm looking at you nvidia). With the right drivers a 3d image can be just as easy to see like naturally. Thats where the iz3D monitor seems really nice. And the Zalman seems like it might have less ghosting, but then you're locked in with Vista 32-bit and nvdia. Tough choices.

I can say this though, the iz3d driver is probably the best thing out now so if you are looking for support, the iz3d monitor should be considered. With Zalman, where is the support? I don't think Zalman, a company with dozens of product likes, even has a user forum at all. Let alone a sub-forum for their 3d monitor division. If I'm wrong, please, link me to the Zalman forums. I can't find anything besides some generic support faqs. I wanted to buy a Zalman Trimon, but this total lack of support makes me feel a little uneasy about the purchase. I might still get one, but I feel like this is a game of craps or something. It doesn't help that the only shops carrying the Zalman are some no-names. At least the iz3d is on newegg so you know you're covered.

In terms of the Samsungs, I think thats a good solution too, and I'm also considering that. The one thing about a set like that is its still useful in 2d mode. There might not be a whole lot of content right this moment, but its a solid investment if you needed a new tv anyway. I haven't seen these yet in person, so I cannot comment on comfort. 120Hz should be very smooth, but not without some flicking effects (even if you don't notice). Its something only you can know though, everyone's comfort level is different.

Post by **flexy** » Thu May 22, 2008 3:56 pm

hello,

without reading all that....22" ---> meh

What you want is a big field of view first
Then you add the 3D

I think the DLP is the better deal, all the 22" will give you is a "fish-tank" experience.

A 50"++ screen in front of you will blow you away...in 2D already. And then add the 3D

Post by **chrisdfw** » Thu May 22, 2008 3:57 pm

You may already have the best solution with the 56inch DLP.

The slight ghosting on Samsung that I have seen on mine and others have reported is on the Plasma flatscreen models. I don't recall anyone saying they had ghosting of any type on the DLP model and at 120 hz you won't have any flicker.

One downside is the small amount of games with tridef drivers but those games do cover flying, racing, and multiple first person shooter/adventure type games. You really can get your "fix" with that small list. The other downside could be the slow drivers and if you are at 1080P then that may be a big issue and you need to test it. I don't know if you can drop down to 720p to improve performance or if you have to run at the monitor's max res.

You may also have the option to use the hack for the Nvidia drivers that could get most of the older games working using the checkerboard pattern with a 79XX series Nvidia card. There are also threads on getting 8800GT/GTX cards working with Nvidia drivers though I don't know if the checkerboard hack works on that as well.

Post by **flexy** » Thu May 22, 2008 4:01 pm

>>>
As far as the Samsung DLP goes, I've started to chalk up some negatives. First off, there are far better HDTVs now-a-days in terms of brightness and viewing angle (although this is reflected in the reduced cost of these DLP models). Then there's the TriDef drivers only supporting select games and supposedly not being as mature (FPS wise). On top of this you need to push a higher resolution to boot (1920x1080 = 2073600 pixels vs. 1680x1050 = 1764000 pixels). Not to take anything away from DDD. I firmly beleive that S3D users everywhere will eventually benefit in one way or another from the work they are doing today.
>>>

then get the series 4 Plasma. EVERY set/technique has some drawback. I got a plasma, nice blacks, great viewing angle...but then the dreaded "burn-in" "image-retention" and power requirements....

Re: Resolutions...if your PC can handle 1920x for gaming....go for it...but then add $4k or so for a super-high-end PC to drive that resolution

I posted on other location already....IMHO 1920x is a very unrealistic resolution for gaming. I also dont see any resolution-/pixelation etc. problems and my set only does 1360x768.

Post by **Nobsi** » Fri May 23, 2008 3:09 am

Hello MadRussion,

as an iZ3d 22" monitor owner I can confirm that the monitor is capable of displaying 3D at any resolution up to 1680x1050. The resolution is not(!) reduced in stereo mode (like it is with the interleaved format of the Zalman monitor).

Im playing games in 3D for about 10 years now (starting with 3dfx Voodoo2 and Wicked3D drivers), mostly on a CRT/shutter setup and using the nVidia drivers. I personally find that the stereo image quality on a decent CRT (I own a Sony GDM-FW900) is better than on my iZ3D. There is no color tainting, no jittering and less ghosting.
Unfortunatelly nVidia dropped shutter support as they did with support for 8xxx series cards and XP about 1,5 years ago, so I had to look for an alternative.

What finally headed me to iZ3D was the great level of support to existing customers I saw in their forum . Owning the monitor for halve a year now, I can say for sure that the level of support is absolutely awesome. You really have contact to the lead developer and the rest of the team and they really care, accept suggestions and reply very quickly. I had just an issue with RaceDriver GRID which I am looking forward, told them about he problem and they downloaded the demo and fixed the problem within a week. This is unbelievable and totally the opposite to anything I experienced before with nVidia.
And beside that their drivers are leaps ahead of the competition:

- Support for nVidia and ATI cards (old and new ones)
- Support for XP and VISTA
- Support for 32bit and 64bit systems
- Support for Direct-X 8 & 9, with DX10 in the works
- Support for post processing effects
- Suport for auto convergence (automatic convergence adjustment to the hot spot your looking to)
- Nearly every Direct-X 8/9 game will work with this drivers. If not, their support will solve the problem shortly

And regarding the display quality problems they have currently 2 solutions in the works:

1) New improved polarisation glasses which may reduce current iZ3D monitor display issues
2) Shutter glasses / dual projector support (maybe even the Samsung checker board format, not sure here) in the next driver release which you can access after paying for it.

Post by **chilledsanity** » Fri May 23, 2008 5:56 am

- Nearly every Direct-X 8/9 game will work with this drivers. If not, their support will solve the problem shortly

I'll believe this when I see it, although in their latest driver revision (which I haven't had a chance to try yet), they specifically mention DX8 compatibility as one of the improvements. If they really did fix all the problems I found with their last version I'll be amazed with the level of driver support.

Post by **flexy** » Fri May 23, 2008 7:35 am

nobsi,

i am jealous of your FW-900... Altough i like my 22" LCD also

Post by **Nobsi** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:02 am

Hi flexy,
I was able to get the FW900 really cheap on ebay (for much less than my iZ3D monitor) and it is in perfect condition. This is the dream device for a shutter glasses setup.

Hi chilledsanity,
Ok, maybe this declaration was a bit offensive, but at least all the games I own initially run in stereo or iZ3D did fix it after a support request.

Hi MadRussian,
just read that the Samsung checkerboard support is in the works for the next iZ3D driver release. So maybe waiting for this driver and buying it for use with your Samsung is the best solution. Tick Tack... Booom

Post by **flexy** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:29 am

Nobsi wrote:Hi flexy,
I was able to get the FW900 really cheap on ebay (for much less than my iZ3D monitor) and it is in perfect condition. This is the dream device for a shutter glasses setup.

Hi MadRussian,
just read that the Samsung checkerboard support is in the works for the next driver release. So maybe waiting for this driver and buying it for use with your Samsung is the best solution. Tick Tack... Booom

Hello Nobsi,
what drivers are you referring to? The iz3d drivers? I so want GENERIC drivers support for the DLP mode, i am sick of being bound to SINGLe 3d games using the tridef drivers! Also..we really, really need OpenGL support with DLP 3D output!

G.

Post by **LukePC1** » Fri May 23, 2008 2:54 pm

flexy wrote:
Nobsi wrote:Hi flexy,
I was able to get the FW900 really cheap on ebay (for much less than my iZ3D monitor) and it is in perfect condition. This is the dream device for a shutter glasses setup.

Hi MadRussian,
just read that the Samsung checkerboard support is in the works for the next driver release. So maybe waiting for this driver and buying it for use with your Samsung is the best solution. Tick Tack... Booom
Hello Nobsi,
what drivers are you referring to? The iz3d drivers? I so want GENERIC drivers support for the DLP mode, i am sick of being bound to SINGLe 3d games using the tridef drivers! Also..we really, really need OpenGL support with DLP 3D output!

G.

I'm not shure, but both IZ3D and NV might have plans to support it. NV has shown some demos on it, so they should have at least some driver.

IZ3D will try to implement shutter support, but sync is a problem here. I'm not shure, if checkerboard pattern will be made, since it is one of the most direct competitors...
If you read here, you'll get the news first

Post by **nubie** » Fri May 23, 2008 3:22 pm

iZ3D has said it is going to add checkerboard (they said "chessboard"), so don't you worry about that

(I posted this in the other thread, so I didn't click submit on this one yesterday as it would have been just a double post.)

I like the iZ3D method, full on updates, any video card, this is a very smart way to do it. (imagine gaming on an integrated laptop in 3D!! Obviously only on older games, but it would still be super cool because in Stereo it doesn't really matter how old it is, it is worth another play!)

Post by **MadRussian** » Sat May 24, 2008 2:02 am

Thanks for all the replies guys! I've read them all and have many comments/questions. But very busy atm with out of town guests... will return to the thread soon. Glad to feel so welcome here!

Post by **pixel67** » Sat May 24, 2008 8:58 pm

MadRussian,
Congrats on your purchase! I have one of the LED Samsung DLP's as mentioned in my sig and have been very happy with it and can't wait for the IZ3D drivers to support it! I haven't followed the "prescribed path" for DLP and did not purchase any of the "special" DLP compliant glasses and initially used the good old ED glasses that i used to use on my CRT. Initially my impressions of image quality and eye strain were quite mixed. Image quality was really good for about the first 45 minutes, but after 45 minutes or so the uniformity of the glasses would fade and there would be hot spots where the viewed image would dim. Turning them off for 1 minute fixed this but it returned again after another 45 minutes. Since then I have purchased a set of Crystaleyes 3 from RealD (traded in my ED's ) and the result was very apparent. No fading, no sign of ghosting, much brighter, and very uniform even after wearing them for 3+ hours at a time. Battery life is excellent as i am still on my first set of batteries after several months of use. They are expensive, but worth every penny to me. I have used all kinds of 3D products over the years and this is clearly the best I have ever used. The glasses are very comfortable and have a very large FOV. I can sit about 3-4 feet away from the HDTV and the picture fills the entire FOV within the glasses.

For me, an HDTV was the ideal solution because I didn't want another desktop monitor. I built a custom water cooled HTPC that fits very nicely in the low profile glass stand. 7.1 Surround sound is hooked up so I can watch movies, listen to music, or play 3D games in comfort. I bought a custom stand that holds the keyboard and mouse, like a small desk on wheels, and couldn't be happier with the ergonomics it provides. Very comfortable. Just added a Bluray player a few weeks ago and am waiting patiently for a true next gen card that can push current games at 1080P in S3D.

I am not a big fan of the DDD Drivers, but they are getting better. Hopefully we will have some choices very soon.

Post by **zoomin** » Sat May 24, 2008 9:40 pm

Hey

I had my own thread a while back trying to pick between iZ3d and Zalman a while back if this helps:

In the end I went with the zalman because it sounded like the best quality option beccause of the few ghosting and tinting issues on the iZ3D. Plus I found that nvidia's driver support had actually picked up a bit lately. Of course now though the grass seems greener on the other side. I'm still happy with my purchase as it is an excellent 2d monitor and the 3d works well. But the viewing angle is restricting and their hasn't been a driver update since I bought it. Murphys law i suppose but With the iZ3d community (where the creator of the monitor talks to people and fixes problems within days at the most) and the upcoming release of their ghosting/tinting fix (new glasses) I' would probably reccomend iZ3d over Zalman although they are both still good.

To answer you specific questions about the Zalman:
Screen and Resolution: 22" screen @ 1680x1050 fixed. (Vertical resolution is "halved" in S3D due to line over line format)
Ghosting: Minimal ghosting (<1%) (as long as your at exactly the right height)
Flicker: Assuming none, because it's passive. (Yep none at all)
Drivers: Love em or hate em, nVidia has finally released new stereo drivers. Only works with Vista. Tons of games supported. (Could just be me but I've been having troubles with portal, assassins creed, and grid, plus nowhere near the level of support as iZ3d. they still get the job done though)
Reports of original S3D nVidia Drivers on the Zalman having difficulty with 2D elements while in 3D mode. Someone with the 22" Zalman please tell me, has nVidia handled these 2D issues with the new S3D drivers? (Well if you mean hud and stuff, once you get the near cut-off depth working it all looks great.. Although people could be talking about the interlacing issues with text and depending on how small the text gets yes it is hard to read with the glasses on since it only has a few pixels and then half are taken away for each eye)
Product Support and Future: nVidia and Zalman are huge companies that aren't going anywhere. However, based on the multi-year hiatus in S3D driver support from nVidia, followed up by the "deal" with Zalman (hanging many S3D users out to dry), this S3D monitor arguably has the best chance of ending up as an ultra expensive paper-weight on your desk. I just hope it hasnt already

Also I reccommend you read cyber realities thread... lots of good points there http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1472

As far as eyestrain goes i have noticed some slight ghosting on bright objects next to dark objects in some games but I should probably just use this picture:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/gallery/displayim ... ?pos=-1031
http://www.mtbs3d.com/gallery/displayim ... ?pos=-1030
The quality is bad but you get a good representation of the ghosting from it. (not the interlacing though... The interlacing is worse for white areas than it shows but not nearly as bad for text as it seems on that first picture)

And thats all I can tell you except that its already been said a DLP with the iZ3D drivers is probably your best bet but I wouldnt really know much about these things