3d on Samsung DLP 3D Plasma

Post by **flexy** » Wed May 07, 2008 5:50 pm

i am very excited since i decided to get a Samsung 50" HDTV Plasma which is "3D Ready".

I dont have the TV yet but already installed those Tridef 3D drivers and i purchased (sigh...) the WoW drivers and i am testing on my system.

I am under Vista 64 with a Geforce 8800 GTS and usually i get great FPS in WoW...so now running those Tridef 3D drivers for the DLP i get rather "lame" FPS 20-30, and this with turned down resolution to match the (future) HDTV DLP resolution (1360x768). Usually i play 1650x1050.

I am evry interested if anyone has information in regards to the new Nvidia Vista 174.16 3D drivers and whether there is a way to get these running n the Samsung DLP 3D TVs. I know of "hacks" for the older XP drivers, but i think its absurd that i would need to install XP and use registry hacks to get Nvidia drivers running with the DLP.

I am also interested in any people already owning a Samsung DLP, i will get the plasma version which is available in Germany (we dont have the other models which are available in the states since march). It has a resolution of 1360x768, and the manual says thats the optimal resolution for connection the PC, for gaming.

On the LCD monitor i am testing it doesnt look too bad.

My question is whether...the "checkerboard" DLP pixelation and in general pixelation with such a big 50" screen in front of my desk would be visible, and otherwise what experience people have with this technolology.

tridef charges a small amount for licenses on a "per game" basis....and at least they have WoW and FSX, Crysis etc.

But i am a bit sad since i have some VERY interesting games (e. x-plane)...which would be ideal for such a 3d-setup. I dont like to be dependant on a 3rd party deciding what games i can play in 3D and what not. I also wish performance of tridef, eg. in Wow would be better. There is no reason to run 1360x768 on my 8800 gts w 30 FPS....this should FLY.

Cheers,

G.

Post by **pixel67** » Wed May 07, 2008 8:43 pm

Congrats on your purchase! I know you will like the new plasma and am interested in hearing your impressions. As I mentioned in the other thread, I really like my DLP3D set. The checkerboard pattern isn't visible to the naked eye when in 3D mode, but if you put it in 2D mode you can see the pattern in action. I have only found two negatives associated with this setup:

1. When switching into 3D mode, the colors tend to wash out a bit. Tweaking gamma and contrast can fix this. Completely ghost free picture! I doubt your PDP set will have this problem.
2. Tridef Drivers... Our savior, whom without we would just have a nice 2d set. For me, it has been a love/hate experience. Its great that I can finally experience a 3D game on this fantastic set, but the performance hit sucks and the number of supported games is weak. Their may be a few options on the horizon though. IZ3D mentioned at one point that they were considering adding checkerboard support, but it wouldn't be a near term release. Nvidia also showed their drivers pushing a DLP3D display at one of the trade shows not that long ago so we know the capability is there. The last interview with Samsung/EA also hinted at this.

I don't pretend to understand how the checkerboard pattern is generated (CarlKenner definitely knows since he implemented it natively in Assaultcube), but must assume it is applied after the stereo pair is rendered. If the pattern was created during the rendering process, wouldn't the fill rate also be cut in half? It seems like this approach would actually make a natively rendered 3D game faster than rendering it in 2d at very high resolutions. But again, what do I know. Or, how about SLI with checkerboard? No need for a dual output with this, each card renders its own "view", checkerboard pattern applied, and VOILA! Full speed S3D with no performance loss.

Carl or BlackQ, can you guys comment? I would love to hear from those "in the know" about how this process really works...

Post by **flexy** » Wed May 07, 2008 9:13 pm

yes..the drivers seem to be the only "gripe" right now, respective their "speed" or lack thereof. Just fur fun i did a test running those Nvidia drives in anaglyph...and of course there is no performance-hit *whatsoever* running WoW.

Ironically, and you also hinted at this with the "tradeshow bit", ...the support in the NV drives for the DLP is indeed already "built in"...but seems to be disabled.

I am almost at the point to install XP on the other partition to get the old NV 3d drives running using the registry tweak.

Btw. as i understand, you have a 1980x1080 model..so you're playing in this resolution ? Here for soem reason the "higher" resolution DLP models coming out dont have the 3d support (yet)...but i think i can live with "only" 1360x768

I cant even imagine how slow it must be to run games in 1980x resolution with the tridef drivers??

We're really "doomed" with a horrible situation in regards to 3D..now, after years of waiting for new drives for Vista and new cards we DO HAVE them...but now they only offer anaglyph and their "partnership" with zalman...the other (working drivers) wont work with vista.....or they wont work with my 8800GTS...the ones which DO work cost money and are very slow.

Such a situation for sure does NOT benefit bringing 3d DLP into the mainstream, AT ALL.

Btw. there might be a very slim change the new Vista drives DO work with an actual Samsung DLP connected, but of course i cannot test yet.
I will continue to try to understand how the NV drivers work....and if i find anything i will keep you updated, registry tweaks etc..etc..
This is just a vey inacceptable situation that one is forced to a) pay money for drivers...and b) horrible performance in exchange

Post by **Tril** » Wed May 07, 2008 10:04 pm

How close you can tolerate to sit is a matter of opinion. I'll quote two people.

EcPercy at http://www.driverheaven.net/off-topic-forum/145327-got-my-first-hd-tv-yesterday.html wrote:I bought a Samsung HLT5087S.
the closest I sit is about 6'-7' and the image is nice. I definitely wouldn't sit 2' from it though. The screen is too big for that.

Zardon at http://www.driverheaven.net/news/155571-benq-g2400-zardon-s-bargain-month-2.html wrote:Isn't that a bit big when sitting at the desk?
52inch. no, its great, I love it. best screen ive ever used.

That a look at that second URL. There's a picture of his HDTV on his desk. There's a 24 inch monitor to the far left for size comparison. He's sitting very close and he does not have any problem with that.

I don't have that kind of experience myself so I can't say if you'll like it. It might be fine to play games on the pc but you'll definitely need to sit farther if you watch SD tv channels.

Post by **flexy** » Thu May 08, 2008 4:05 pm

i will see. I will put it on a stand so i can roll it wherever we want it, for movies...or use as a giant monitor.

Important for me is that it fills out most of the field of view, withour noticing any pixelation. Maybe 3' works. I will see.

hehe, guy has the same illuminated Saitek keyboard as i have. I love it.

Edit: I dont think the picture is good for giving a real impression of size

On the left he has a 24" which looks TINY on the picture. My main screen right now is a 22" and i think it's a "good size".....so i can only fathom how a 50" would be...

Post by **flexy** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:48 pm

well i ordered the 50" plasma...i am very excited. Once for the 3D, i already have the drivers and everything running, i also have the ED glasses which are compatible with the TV. But i am also excited since its supposed to be a kicka$$ TV, we're big movie buffs here.

I am glad i did not go for the Z800 goggles but found out about the 3D DLPs right in time. The minute i read about them i knew that i wanted one

To Do:

Find out whether NV Vista drivers support DLP format. Its just a very, very simple change in the interlace-patterns.

To find out where to get real 3D movies.

In regards to "Beowulf 3D"...i told my wife about it. She laughed and said that they made Beowulf in 3D and put Angelina in it since "the first one sucked"...maybe she has a point

If i am lucky i get the TV delivered the next days.

G.

Post by **cybereality** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:55 pm

Sweet man, 50" is monster. Should be pretty cool once everything is set up in 3d. Let us know how it goes.

Post by **chrisdfw** » Thu May 15, 2008 8:51 am

Well...my first impressions of the Samsung 42 Inch Plasma are a mixed bag.

Playing Blu Ray movies on it looks amazing. It is great for that.

Doing 3d with the Tri-Def drivers didn't meet my expectations. First of all, there was some slight ghosting with really bright lines. It wasn't half as bad as it would be on a CRT, but it was there and a little distracting. Perhaps the DLP sets don't suffer this problem but I needed a flat screen.

Second, the Tridef drivers are really slow. Playing an old NFS racing game in 1024 X 768 should have been smooth as silk on my quad core with 8800GT. It was noticeably choppy which again took away from the immersion.

Lastly, the checker board pattern does degrade the resolution. Thanks to your brain combining the images somewhat in your head, I wouldn't say the resoltion is cut in half, but it definately doesn't look like 1024 X 768 other than on objects at screen depth. Even with 2X AA turned on, you see the stair step effect on objects farther away than screen depth.

I'll be going back to my single Sharpe XR10X projector at 1024 X 768 and 85 hz on my old single core rig with a 7900 card and old drivers. At least with that I only had to deal with a slight flicker with white scenes but games ran silky smooth and appeared twice as detailed as 1024 X 768 normall does.

Can we go back to hoping for a single 1024 X 768 DLP projector that does 100-120hz? I am getting really tired of being let down by all of these "modern" 3d solutions companies are dreaming up.

Post by **flexy** » Thu May 15, 2008 9:19 am

chris,

very interesting. Seems to be the very first "first hand" review by someone owning the *Plasmas*!

I thought my 50" set would arrive today...but...probably tomorrow.

Just some comments, before i can make my own once i try my set:

() Seems the 42" set has lower resolution than the 50" set...the 50" has 1360x768, so this might "somewhat" compensate for the pixelation. I think that 1024x is already cutting it very close to what is tolerable, coming from a gamer who plays everything at 1650x.

You are right, "basically" the system produces two halves..and then combining the pictures again to full resolution. So...since every eye has half the reso there is definitly a lower resolution, "kind of"...even if the combined picture again conists of all pixels.

Speed of tridef drivers: I own a quad core too and a 8800GTS and i already complained about speed, testing here on my monitor w/ tridef drivers and 1360x resolution. But then i dont play a fast paced shooter, but WoW. I also play at 4x antialiasing.
Yes, its slower than "native".....but i have to say its still playable, at least for that genre.

there is still hope that we can get the Nvidia drivers working, in the future.

So...from your experience, the only thing bugging me right now is the ghosting mentioned, i wonder whether you can adjust this somehow by setting display properties, gamma...or even with settings on the TV.

Do you perceive any flickering? And what glasses are you using?

I have mixed information - i just got the ED wireless glasses in the "works for LCD also" edition (<--- big joke for LCD btw) Read on some sites those glasses work with those sets. They also have the 3-pin VESA connector/emitter. So..from a logical point of view there is no reason those wont work.

But according to edimensional themselves, they told me those glasses would not work, and i need the special glasses "for Samsung Mitusubishi DLPs". But i am not sure, i mean i already have the tridef drivers running..i somehow dont believe those glasses wont work.

Georg.

Edit: The native resolution of this 42" set now confuses me. 1024x768 is a 4:3 resolution ?!!?!

Post by **chrisdfw** » Thu May 15, 2008 12:32 pm

I can't wait to hear another Plasma review so I hope yours arrives soon!

The resolution is 1024X768 on the 42 inch even though it is wide screen. Somehow that aspect ratio is detected and set correctly so everything looks normal but I'll have to do more testing.

The ghosting is pretty minor but visible in the one NFS racing game I tried so I'll need to do testing in other games. It is possible tweaking settings would help, but I was hoping for completely ghostless gaming without any tweaking just like I get on my DLP projector. Either the glasses let a little light through or the Plasma has some persistance. If I were to guess I would say the ghosting is 1/3 what I used to get on a 21inch tube monitor.

I bought my 2 pair of 3d glasses and emitter here for about $150:

http://www.i-glassesstore.com/dlp3dsystems.html

I do not see any flicker.

It's a shame the engineers couldn't have found a way for us to use the full 120hz refresh to alternate between 2 complete 1024X768 screens. I normally play games like COD4 on a 1600 X 1200 LCD so I know what you mean by needing a good resolution. The funny thing about true 1024 X 768 in stereo is that it looks even better than 1600 X 1200 mono.

I am about to leave on vacation and it may be a week or more before I get to do more testing. Good luck with yours and please post everything you experience. If someone knows what settings will make the Tridef drivers quicker please post that too!

Post by **flexy** » Thu May 15, 2008 2:34 pm

well the reason is that HD/HDMI has a certain bandwidth.

With Stereo, basically two different pictures need to be transferred..i understand it like they need to go half resolution x2 , otherwise they would need double the HDMI bandwith?!

Yeah..those glasses are the ones which are supposed to be the right ones....but i wasted EU99 already on that "wireless LCD glasses" garbage by ED...just testing whether they work now...if not then i will get the other ones. I can only see that those glasses might be too slow or something.

Post by **flexy** » Mon May 19, 2008 10:34 am

So, got the TV today since on fri i missed the delivery....BUMMER

First...the TV is HUGE and the picture is awesome, and the first thing i did was putting it on my desk and tested WoW with the tridef drivers. I also need to add that i have the ED glasses, i got a 3D effect...but i am not sure whether with the "right" glasses i would get better results. Edimensional told me that those wireless glasses are not working - but they defintly worked, i just dont know whether the other kind of glasses would be "better".

The 3D effect was "ok", i also noted ghosting (see above, glasses working right ????)...but subjectively speaking the 3D effect was less impressive than with my experiments using anaglyph on my 22" monitor. I still have some real 3D DVD coming and i plan to do more 3D tests later.

(Sorry...i wanted to take a picture with that HUGE monitor on my desk...but i totally forgot

The problem is that the thing is HUGE and heavy, and its just not feasable right now to constantly move it from our "TV watching" position on my PC desk. We have to check for a rolling stand or something. But for now we put it back to the "Watch TV" place...i also didnt want to torture the new plasma too much with gaming in the first 200hrs (burn-in).

Anyway..in my short tests i was impressed by the size of such a display on my desk, it literally filled most of my FOV...but the 3D was rather "meh"....but as said i need more testing and probably the ED glasses i have are not the right ones.

G.

Add: In regards to the ghosting: The glasses defnitly worked, but i saw the ghosting always on ONE side, if i covered one eye i saw kind of a double-pic with the uncovered eye....and the ghosting also only appeared on one side....so i saw ghosting left..but the right eye was ok.

I will test more...but as said the size of the thing prevents a quick "now put it on my desk" because its HUGE. I will give it a more thorough test once i get the Imax 3D movies i ordered and also with the other "recommended" glasses. I am also still waiting on longer HDMI cable.

Post by **yuriythebest** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:26 am

flexy wrote:
The 3D effect was "ok", i also noted ghosting (see above, glasses working right ????)...but subjectively speaking the 3D effect was less impressive than with my experiments using anaglyph on my 22" monitor. I still have some real 3D DVD coming and i plan to do more 3D tests later.

yup something is definitely wrong, probably either the glasses as you said or some settings. After using my eDimensionals on my 19' CRT and then looking at anaglyph images on a monitor of the same size even the bezt anaglyph 3d seems almost flat by comparison.

also can you clarify something regarding the tridef drivers as I read some conflicting statements. Are there any 'universal' tridef drivers in addition to the pay-per-game drivers?

Post by **flexy** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:30 pm

nope, the tridef are one a "per game" basis..but i actually had the overall best results eg. playing WoW in anaglyph. So..i guess i will be ordering the other set of glasses.

Also..what i noticed..when i feed the set the 3D, in addition to the 3-D checkerboard patterns the picture becomes very grainy, i can see multi-colored dots. But this goes away if i wear the glasses. I dont know whether this is part of the "3d effect" and supposed to be...but as soon as i turn on "3D" on the plasma i get this "colored snow" visible witht the naked eye. I still have to test more (repeating myself)

Post by **cybereality** » Mon May 19, 2008 4:36 pm

flexy wrote:So, got the TV today since on fri i missed the delivery....BUMMER

First...the TV is HUGE and the picture is awesome, and the first thing i did was putting it on my desk and tested WoW with the tridef drivers. I also need to add that i have the ED glasses, i got a 3D effect...but i am not sure whether with the "right" glasses i would get better results. Edimensional told me that those wireless glasses are not working - but they defintly worked, i just dont know whether the other kind of glasses would be "better".

The 3D effect was "ok", i also noted ghosting (see above, glasses working right ????)...but subjectively speaking the 3D effect was less impressive than with my experiments using anaglyph on my 22" monitor. I still have some real 3D DVD coming and i plan to do more 3D tests later.

I'm sure you'll be able to tweak it somehow. Theres always a hack!

Think of it this way: worst-case-scenario, you still have an awesome big-screen hdtv to watch movies or game in 2d. Not like some other solutions which leave you with an expensive paperweight!!!

Post by **chrisdfw** » Mon May 19, 2008 6:01 pm

If bandwidth is the reason they couldn't do 2 complete images and had to resort to the "checkerboard" pattern, then I would love to see how a game would look at full resolution but half the number of frames displayed. If it is currently at 60 fPS at 120hz then I wonder how bad it would be at 30fps at the same 120hz where it would just display the same frames twice. I know some games do ok at 30fps especially if they use some post processing blurring techniques when there is a lot of motion.

I just can't deal with the lack of resolution of the checkerboard.

Post by **pixel67** » Mon May 19, 2008 8:15 pm

That is really weird as i haven't seen any issues with my DLP when using the checkerboard pattern, but I was always running 1080P. I did test in several movies and didn't notice any resolution issues either so i wonder if this is plasma specific?

will have to test some more later next week...

Post by **The_Nephilim** » Mon May 19, 2008 9:08 pm

To thoise that have the TriDef Software and the DVD Player have you tried converting a 2d to 3d Movie with your 3D Setup?? If so How does it look??

I am going to get the TriDef Software and use it in my Home Theater but I need to get a HTPC 1st with a Quadro Card??

THNHX

Post by **flexy** » Tue May 20, 2008 3:50 am

the nephilim....hmm..i havent tried 2d->3d conversion yet...i got the "stereo player" by peter wimmer which should play everything, i might give thsi a try even if i dont expect it to be too great since its only "pseudo stereo"

Post by **flexy** » Tue May 20, 2008 3:52 am

chrisdfw wrote:If bandwidth is the reason they couldn't do 2 complete images and had to resort to the "checkerboard" pattern, then I would love to see how a game would look at full resolution but half the number of frames displayed. If it is currently at 60 fPS at 120hz then I wonder how bad it would be at 30fps at the same 120hz where it would just display the same frames twice. I know some games do ok at 30fps especially if they use some post processing blurring techniques when there is a lot of motion.

I just can't deal with the lack of resolution of the checkerboard.

chris,

actually resolution was not an issue....it was really more the ghosting, or the fact that those glasses are not the right ones. I contacted some german distributor and let them import the IOD glasses since i cant find those exact glasses here anywhere (in Germany), only the ED glasses and those obviously wont work 100%

And..yes..you have a point. This TV is supposed to make "tru 100hz" (or 120hz even)....and why shouldnt it be able to produce two real page flipped images? Maybe it works?

Post by **flexy** » Tue May 20, 2008 3:56 am

cybereality wrote:
flexy wrote:So, got the TV today since on fri i missed the delivery....BUMMER

First...the TV is HUGE and the picture is awesome, and the first thing i did was putting it on my desk and tested WoW with the tridef drivers. I also need to add that i have the ED glasses, i got a 3D effect...but i am not sure whether with the "right" glasses i would get better results. Edimensional told me that those wireless glasses are not working - but they defintly worked, i just dont know whether the other kind of glasses would be "better".

The 3D effect was "ok", i also noted ghosting (see above, glasses working right ????)...but subjectively speaking the 3D effect was less impressive than with my experiments using anaglyph on my 22" monitor. I still have some real 3D DVD coming and i plan to do more 3D tests later.
I'm sure you'll be able to tweak it somehow. Theres always a hack!

Think of it this way: worst-case-scenario, you still have an awesome big-screen hdtv to watch movies or game in 2d. Not like some other solutions which leave you with an expensive paperweight!!!

this TV and the picture quality blows us away....watching LOTR and whatever other movies in 720P...insane

I hate too say it, i think this TV is almost too big for out tiny appt....but we'll get used to it

This makes much more sense (IMHO) than spending a lot of $$$ on a HMD which disappoints then...as you said...we wanted a nice big TV anyway

Post by **The_Nephilim** » Tue May 20, 2008 6:20 am

flexy wrote:the nephilim....hmm..i havent tried 2d->3d conversion yet...i got the "stereo player" by peter wimmer which should play everything, i might give thsi a try even if i dont expect it to be too great since its only "pseudo stereo"

The Stereo Player by Peter Only does Pure 3D it does NOT do the 2D-3D conversions. If you have the TriDef Media Player, that Player converts 2D to 3D "Psuedo" of course..

Post by **flexy** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:16 am

yes nephilim, i know.

I am unsure whether i should jump for the tridef-media player...and i am unsure whether the result would be ok. I was testing a bit with the trial/split screen....

Yes..Peter's player i use if i have a real 3D source, but it seems to be able to convert existing 3D in various other 3D formats, incl. Samsung checkerboards. Btw...AFAIK my TV should also support line interlaced, in addition to the checkerboard. This according to manual.

Btw. i remember thre ws some software (not the tridef on-the-fly 2D->3D media player) which did DVD conversion 2D->3D...but i really cant find it anymore. Any ideas?

Post by **yuriythebest** » Tue May 20, 2008 9:27 am

flexy wrote:yes nephilim, i know.

Btw. i remember thre ws some software (not the tridef on-the-fly 2D->3D media player) which did DVD conversion 2D->3D...but i really cant find it anymore. Any ideas?

trial versions of 2 diff programs for 2d->3d in real time:

http://old.really.ru/eng/dload.php?acti ... file_id=64

http://old.really.ru/eng/dload.php?acti ... file_id=60

unfortunately for me neither program worked properly

Post by **Arlum** » Tue May 20, 2008 12:12 pm

Hey guys

I'm about to purchase a samsung TV and just realized it has 3d support! I recently tried an IZ3D and was dissapointed with the quality compared to the cost so i sent it back and took the restocking hit.

But for these DLP's... isee that flex tried the ED glasses and wasnt impressed. I see that pixel67 uses crystal eyes, and then there are http://www.i-glassesstore.com/dlp3dsystems.html , and the starter pack from tridef.

I just realized this was possible...so I'm kinda scramblin to figure out which package to purchase, going to purchase the TV this weekend, maybe i can 3day the glasses in haha.

I assume tridef drivers are the best bet?

Also, all you use is a single VGA cable to the TV? i havent seen that covered either.

thanks guys sorry for the barrage

Post by **yuriythebest** » Tue May 20, 2008 12:16 pm

Arlum wrote:Hey guys

I assume tridef drivers are the best bet?

I wouldn't use the word best. "only" best fits the description. you have to pay per game.

Post by **Tril** » Tue May 20, 2008 12:49 pm

I think you use a DVI cable with a DVI to HDMI adapter. It's written in the manual.

Post by **Arlum** » Tue May 20, 2008 1:08 pm

you mean from pc's dvi...to tv's hdmi?

because samsungs only have vga ports as their "pc" port

Post by **yuriythebest** » Tue May 20, 2008 1:26 pm

Arlum wrote:you mean from pc's dvi...to tv's hdmi?

because samsungs only have vga ports as their "pc" port

I think he means that your tv should have an hdmi exit, your pc a dvi exit, like so:

PC-DVI

|
|
V
DVI-hdmi adapter
|
|
|
V

your TV -hdmi

Post by **flexy** » Tue May 20, 2008 3:07 pm

Arlum wrote:Hey guys

I'm about to purchase a samsung TV and just realized it has 3d support! I recently tried an IZ3D and was dissapointed with the quality compared to the cost so i sent it back and took the restocking hit.

But for these DLP's... isee that flex tried the ED glasses and wasnt impressed. I see that pixel67 uses crystal eyes, and then there are http://www.i-glassesstore.com/dlp3dsystems.html , and the starter pack from tridef.

I just realized this was possible...so I'm kinda scramblin to figure out which package to purchase, going to purchase the TV this weekend, maybe i can 3day the glasses in haha.

I assume tridef drivers are the best bet?

Also, all you use is a single VGA cable to the TV? i havent seen that covered either.

thanks guys sorry for the barrage

Well if you're in the US you can just buy the right glasses at http://www.i-glassesstore.com/dlp3dsystems.html
it can really be that the usual ED glasses wont work right and you need those IOD glasses. Those are also exactly the same which come with that "tridef 3d starter kit"...you even have them at BB, i saw them

(I first have to iorder them from the states trough razor3d since we dont have those IOD glasses yet, only the ED glasses)

Also..in regards to "drivers are the best"...it depends on your OS...Nvidia 3d drivers dont support DLP (even if support is built in)...so under Vista you HAVE to use the tridef drivers....or under XP you use some older Nvidia drivers and you need "hacks" for the NV drievrs to get DLP support.

And for the DVI/HDMI...well VGA was a few years ago...if you get a new HDTV you want HDMI. HDMI is basically compatible with DVI (its the same digital signals).....VGA is analog, you dont want that. (Altough the TV also has a VGA input).
What you want is a DVI ---> HDMI cable/adapter.

What TV are you gonna get?

I still some people "pushing" 1080P sets.....but here my opinion:

1) There is literally only MARGINAL difference (if any) between watching a movie in 1080p and 720p. I read many,many reviews...and 1080p might be useful with MONSTERS 60" and up....but you're fully, fully fine with a 720p set.

2) people say they want a set which does 1920x1080 resolution for gaming. Its true that thsoe sets then will support a desktop-resolution at that size - and POSSIBLE also 1920x1080 for 3d gaming.

but this is a resolution which is just only halfway closely doable with a monster PC, having at least 2 high-end graphics cards in SLI...so add 3d.....in my opinion a practically total unuseable "dream resolution" which you just cant use in real life since the hardware requirements would be INSANE to drive any modern game at 1920x1080 resolution AND have them in 3D. (3d drivers also add a big overhead)

So...1360x720 is the next "lower" supported native HDTV resolution you would connect your PC to the set....which is reasonable and looks good....so you are (in my opinion) totally fine with a set which does "only" 1360x768...eg. "HD ready" compared to "full hd", costing you $1000 more and...just not useable.

Post by **Arlum** » Tue May 20, 2008 4:09 pm

well im an avid console gamer as well w/ them all so im going to get a 1080p anyway, but I understand what you are saying that nobody atm can really run 3d games at the max reso comfortably.

i was going to get the new samsung models i guess.. hl50a650 or the 56" version. I wanted the previous model which had an LED lamp instead w/ higher contrast ratio, but they are pretty much gone from all the retailers now.

so you mean http://www.i-glassesstore.com/dlp3d-wireless-1set.html then. I looked over the software and it looks fairly pointless, all i want to do is gaming. I dont see how the upconversion from 2d to 3d by the software would even be feasible, and there arent enough 3d movies to even warrant the software. I could just get the glasses/transmitter and a few game drivers and be done if im correct.

Post by **flexy** » Tue May 20, 2008 8:41 pm

Hello,

i have a quick question for all who already own any "3d ready" DLP or Plasma using the Tridef drivers.

In the Tridef "Display Setup" Utility, there is this test-picture where you see circles on one eye and sqraes on the other eye.

Testing with my ED glasses (NOT the IOD glasses) i see definitly ok, one eye circles, the other eye squares.

But the circles/squares are not *all black* per eye...on each eye i also see the darker overlapping part, eg. if a circle overlaps a square i see this overlapping part as real black...and the rest of the object is more gray. So...left eye is supposed to see only squares....but i can also see parts of circles *IF they overlap into a square*. (or vice versa)

In the pic above it looks a bit extreme, i shot this thru the LCD shutter actually - you can see what i mean! You can see the slight ghosting too. But then i took this with a cheap cam right thru the glasses...

My question now is if this is normal and whether other people with those sets see the same, or whether they only see plain black squares one ONE eye and black circles on the other, and whether they see the overlapping parts as darker also.

This might help me to determine whether my glasses actually work ok.

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Post by **cybereality** » Tue May 20, 2008 9:57 pm

I can't speak for the DLP/Plasma's, but I do own a regular Samsung 32" LCD. I noticed it came preset with some wild default values for brightness/contrast. The backlighting can also be turned down which helps with the black levels. I spent about a half hour to an hour just messing with the video settings to get it right. Make sure this isn't just a color issue with the monitor. Also, it might just be the way it was supposed to be. I think I tried a similar test app (with shutter glasses on a crt) and there was overlapping like that. Naturally the overlapping parts would be darker, unless there was absolutely no ghosting.

Post by **LukePC1** » Wed May 21, 2008 3:18 am

I'd say ghosting (or crosstalk), too.
I think it would look similar on a CRT. It might be
- the glasses (hopefully)
- the speed of the plasma screen...

I'm not shure, how these screens are built, so I can't be shure... DLP however sends directly the light to the right spots witch mirrors, so it shouldn't have ANY ghosting, if the glasses work correctly...

Post by **flexy** » Wed May 21, 2008 9:41 am

i can only be sure if someone with the "right" glasses (the IOD glasses coming with the Tridef Starter Kit) tells me how it looks for them...otherwise i might run into danger to spend another $149 for a set of glasses....just to see that the result is the same. But..as in my pics, thats ABOUT what i see in reality also using the shutters, maybe the pics just pronounce it a lot, its not THAT extreme. But it's still a little off, IMHO.

I really thought/hope that at least this 3D implementation on the DLPs/Plasma do NOT have the annoyances like anaglyphs, like ghosting and similar....because thats exactly which makes this for me "not usable", like gaming etc.......thanks, then i rather play in 2D. But i still hope its only the glasses.

Post by **chrisdfw** » Wed May 21, 2008 10:30 am

Flexy,

On my 42 inch Plasma using the correct shutter glasses I get a similar ghosting but not as extreme. I am assuming your pictures exagerate the effect. Also, the test screen showing black on white would be the worst case scenerio. In the NFS racing game I tried, there was minor ghosting on the brightest lines. I am assuming Plasmas suffer from some persistance just like CRT's do but about half as much.

Combing the slight ghosting with the loss of resolution it isn't the best solution but better than most.

I still prefer my DLP projector @85hz with the slight flicker on bright objects but it keeps its 1024X768 resolution.

Perhaps the DLP sets don't have any ghosting problem but they would still suffer from losing resolution and most setups can't handle 3d at the 1080P.

We still need a 3d 120hz ghost/flicker free solution at minimum 1024X768 and I don't see anyone making one.

If the HDMI port is limiting the bandwidth, then why don't they allow you to use the VGA input to take advantage of the 120hz at full resolution?

Post by **yuriythebest** » Wed May 21, 2008 10:50 am

chrisdfw wrote: I am assuming Plasmas suffer from some persistance just like CRT's do but about half as much.

nope. with my eDims+ 19' CRT 1024*768@100hz I only get visible ghosting in extremely dark areas. in daytime/lit scenarios I get zero ghosting. zero.

Post by **Arlum** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:15 am

http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/samsu ... 1541.shtml

an interesting read i dugg up, nothing new per say but good for ppl in my position

Post by **LukePC1** » Wed May 21, 2008 12:05 pm

chrisdfw wrote:Flexy,

On my 42 inch Plasma using the correct shutter glasses I get a similar ghosting but not as extreme. I am assuming your pictures exagerate the effect. Also, the test screen showing black on white would be the worst case scenerio. In the NFS racing game I tried, there was minor ghosting on the brightest lines. I am assuming Plasmas suffer from some persistance just like CRT's do but about half as much.

Combing the slight ghosting with the loss of resolution it isn't the best solution but better than most.

I still prefer my DLP projector @85hz with the slight flicker on bright objects but it keeps its 1024X768 resolution.

Perhaps the DLP sets don't have any ghosting problem but they would still suffer from losing resolution and most setups can't handle 3d at the 1080P.

We still need a 3d 120hz ghost/flicker free solution at minimum 1024X768 and I don't see anyone making one.

If the HDMI port is limiting the bandwidth, then why don't they allow you to use the VGA input to take advantage of the 120hz at full resolution?

If you run a DLP on 1080p with 3D, it HAS a better resolution than 1024x768. It is matematically
1920/2 = 960x1080 - which is slightly more than 1024x768. It can do 120hz in that mode as well and it should not ghost unlike the Plasmas. They are just like a DLP projector built into a box I think. That makes them so big (and heavy)...

the new glasses might be helpfull... especially, if you want multiple people to experience the 3D effect

Post by **flexy** » Wed May 21, 2008 12:18 pm

Luke,

OF COURSE.

Except that thre is no way i can run ANY current game at 1920x1080 with any significant quality settings AND the enormous overhead eg. the tridef drivers add also.
I do not have a slow system...my Geforce 8800GTS eats anythign i throw at her and i play 1650x1080, 4xAA smooth like silk (except crysis with all settings at max

...but 1920x1080 is just not realistic, even for a "normal" high-end PC...it would need a hyper-ultra high-end PC and even THEN i want to see any current game run smoothly

Also...since i see it mentioned a few times:

guys, resolution is NO issue at all...if i'd to see pixelation and resolution issues i would say so

chris,

i found this test-picture

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/i-glasse ... -IMAGE.bmp
and it displays fine.

maybe it is really only a matter of the right brightness/contrast settings.

I dont think that either resolution OR flicker is an issue....in fact...there IS no flicker.

Also, after reading up a bit it is clear that neither LCDs, Plasmas AND DLPs are able to do interlace and therefore "real" page-flipping. This works only on CRTs. I also read that Plasma's response times are literally zero (eg. compared to LCDs).

Since that 3d system works different, it builds the stereo-picture in ONE frame (as far as i understand)...and then the internal electronics sync it somwhoe with the glasses...i dont think its a speed-issue or anything. Maybe its supposed to be like this.

If my current glasses would sync wrongly...eg. in the above test picture one eye would surely see what it's not supposed to see....but i can clearly distinguish the "L" and "R" per eye. So i assume that its working fine??!??!?!
And yes...the shots exaggerate a lot, i also used a flash

I have another question to you, chris:

If i turn on 3D, depending on the brightness setting of the set...i see that "colorful" snow which consists of a random grain of red/blue/green noise across the screen. I noticed it disappears if i go with brightness below 50. It is *almost* not visible with the shutters on, i still dont know whether its supposed to be like that...or if its brightness settings...or what to think about it. Do you get this also? Otherwise i dont have an explanation why the 3d setting would introduce that colored "snow".

G.

3d on Samsung DLP 3D Plasma

3d on Samsung DLP 3D Plasma

First Impressions of 42 inch Samsung Plasma 3d