HMZ-T1 Grainy and Flat?

Post by **Synexious** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:09 pm

HMZ-T1 is blurry, grainy, and flat, supposedly. How incredibly disappointing- maybe literally; every other review I've read said it is crisp and has alot of depth.

Post by **cybereality** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:26 pm

Guy probably didn't adjust it correctly for their eyes. I know it took me about a week just to get the right configuration on my 1200VR. I don't expect someone to find the sweet spot in 5 minutes.

Post by **Aeroflux** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:47 pm

Not believing it for a second...head over to the AVS forum and you'll find an account from David Susilo, ISF certified, and has personal experience with this device. David has tested it with a calibration disc and found that the display actually has 720 lines of motion, and even approaches 1080p front projectors (averaging 800) in terms of motion resolution.

It's been consistently reported that image quality strongly depends on the proper alignment of the lenses to the eyes. It shouldn't be that difficult as there is built in software to help the viewer align the headset properly.

If the 3D image is flat when you have two screens aligned properly the fault lies at the source of the image.

Post by **Synexious** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:54 pm

That's highly encouraging. What's ISF? I'll certainly trust that guy over some anonymous noob bloggers. He mentioned watching 21:9 content - so the display can play cinema widescreen? Nice!

Post by **Aeroflux** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:32 pm

ISF stands for Imaging Science Foundation, ISF certified technicians can calibrate your display for the best possible picture. When you buy a good HDTV, ISF calibration is about the best thing you can do for it. Using Avia or Digital Video Essentials is the second best alternative, but an ISF technician can get deep into the menus and uses a suite of equipment to ensure the best color accuracy and image quality your HDTV is capable of.

Post by **cybereality** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:49 am

Its gonna be good. Don't let the haters taint this release.

Come on now, just look at that picture:

Post by **pierreye** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:18 am

This photo taken from HMZ-T1? This look very good. I think it is better than my Acer H5360BD projector. Color look saturated, picture is sharp and black is black, not greyish. Much better then Z800 that I try out 8 years back.

Post by **cybereality** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:52 am

pierreye wrote:This photo taken from HMZ-T1?

Yes. More photos here:
http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/seri ... 78744.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **Syntax** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:06 am

As I was able to test the HMZ-T1 myself on this years IFA in Berlin, I think i can clarify a few things.
First of the Blog post stated the following:

... the Sony
Personal 3D viewer is still very much a rudimentary offering with grainy, blurred, rounded-edged 3D images falling far from perfect.

In this statement you can read that this guy havent took the time to shift the lenses correctly coz he mentioned that the edges were rounded. For me it was the same experience on the first test but after the sony guy told me that you have to set it correctly to your eyes the edges were totally clean and had no sign of distortion. The picture looked really nice and sharp especially the colours were so vibrant and lifelike that NO and I say NO LCD/LED/Plasma - Display today on the market can barely compete with this kind of setup. Remember these are OLED Screen means every pixel can generate THERE OWN light (self immiting pixels) unlike the lcd/led/plasma technology where there is a backlight layer before on the pixels!

You can read my Full review at: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=13692" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **tritosine5G** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:53 am

Thers nothing wrong with transmissive displays, RGB LED display can kill OLED easily, especially because RGB can mimic CRT spectra ,and thats "THE" standard. Also Plasma is not transmissive.

the colours were so vibrant and lifelike

dunno how is it lifelike, you'd need reference to do that.

Post by **Syntax** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:22 am

Well for what I ve read LEDs have some drawback in picture consistency.
Assuming assume a total of two hundred diodes providing backlighting to a Full HD panel measuring 1920 x 1080 pixels. We would then have 1920 x 1080 = 1778 Mega pixels, or 5.33 million sub-pixels. Each diode would thus funnel light to 5.33 million / 200 = 26,667 sub-pixels per diode. Summarizing:

LED screens, are only equipped with forty-eight LEDs, not 200! Interest is so much less.
In LED screens, many have diodes not matrixed behind the cells, but on the sides!
Eventually, the dynamic contrasts of LED screens are still unsatisfactory and produce unbalanced pictures, with moving areas of gray like clouds in motion.

In terms of lifelike, OLEDs have way less response time of image formation measuring a 0.01 second delay which is great for fast moving objects (especially when 3D is turned on.
Another advantage is that you can archieve a much higher pixeldensity coz the individual pixels wont be interrupted by a backlayer.
One thing I was impressed by was that I was able to read the fine letters of japanese in the OSD:

Which is great for using the HMD in a Desktop enviroment.

Post by **tritosine5G** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:46 am

Please note Im not talking about ordinary LED , but RGB LED, thats usually temporal color generation:
http://www.sidchapters.org/texas/TX_Cha ... OMORI).pdf
(pay attention to last pages)
plus I also read sony 's oled implementation is colorfilter oled, so thats also transmissive.

OLED issues for HMD are : subpixels, unknown drive mechanism -hence unknown motion blur spec, unknown persistence - this can also hurt blacklevels , color spectra is not standard but "disney on acid" , and unlike with projectors, you cant put your seat back so relatively low 720p could blend together.

What John Carmack has to say about HMD is an interesting read too. ( he thinks 2x 60 hz IS an issue).

Post by **cybereality** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:04 pm

tritosine5G wrote: What John Carmack has to say about HMD is an interesting read too. ( he thinks 2x 60 hz IS an issue).

Do you have a link to this article. I saw the Twitter post he made but I'm not sure I get it.

Post by **Aeroflux** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:22 pm

cybereality wrote:
tritosine5G wrote: What John Carmack has to say about HMD is an interesting read too. ( he thinks 2x 60 hz IS an issue).
Do you have a link to this article. I saw the Twitter post he made but I'm not sure I get it.

Carmack doesn't make HMDs and seems set against 3D with his game engine (openGL)...so why should I follow the advice of a rock climber on how to scuba dive?

cybereality wrote:Its gonna be good. Don't let the haters taint this release.

Haters gonna hate, it just makes my chances of getting a headset at launch all the better. So I say let em' get drunk on hateraid.

Post by **PalmerTech** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:20 pm

tritosine5G wrote:Please note Im not talking about ordinary LED , but RGB LED, thats usually temporal color generation:
http://www.sidchapters.org/texas/TX_Cha ... OMORI).pdf
(pay attention to last pages)
plus I also read sony 's oled implementation is colorfilter oled, so thats also transmissive.

OLED issues for HMD are : subpixels, unknown drive mechanism -hence unknown motion blur spec, unknown persistence - this can also hurt blacklevels , color spectra is not standard but "disney on acid" , and unlike with projectors, you cant put your seat back so relatively low 720p could blend together.

What John Carmack has to say about HMD is an interesting read too. ( he thinks 2x 60 hz IS an issue).

You have no idea what you are talking about.

The subpixel format for these panels is outlined on the Sony site (It is a full RGB subpixel setup using white pixels with a color filter), and the drive mechanism is also not only explained, but outlined in great detail. If you had bothered to read the threads on AVSforums, you would know that it has a full 720 lines of motion resolution (Most 1080p HDTVs only have 800 or so), which means motion blur is not going to be an issue. As far as persistence goes, why in the world would it be a problem? Most OLED panels can be driven at 500hz+ if you want, they have even less of a persistence problem than CRTs! Every review of these describes the "inky blacks" and absurdly high contrast ratio, why would black levels be a problem? The color spectrum is not "disney on acid", that is just a result of how most OLED displays are set, to exaggerate their strengths. You can adjust image settings to bring it back to normal, and like Cyber said, even an ISF technician was impressed with the picture quality, and those guys know their stuff. As for blending the "relatively low" 720p, everyone worth trusting has said that you can not see the pixel grid even if you specifically look for it. Yes, the resolution is fairly low for the size, but the fill ratio is high, and that matters a lot more.

Furthermore, that PDF you linked to has nothing to do with this discussion. What exactly are we supposed to learn from it? You said to pay attention to the last few pages, but there is nothing there except a bunch of discussion about how well their high definition panel suits high end video display applications. If anything, the pages closer to the middle have far more useful information! I usually don't like descending into personal attacks, but you do this a LOT. You go into a thread, spread a bunch of FUD based on your own opinion, then tell people to "look it up" or link to articles that you either do not understand, or have very little if anything to do with the topic at hand. Backing up your claims with sources is good, but you need to actually have SUPPORTING documents, not just a pile of technical terms that are irrelevant.

I only get this vicious because the last thing the 3D community needs is someone going around and bashing technology that is only just now gaining acceptance. You have never seen an OLED panel yourself, have you? Have you ever even used a decent head mounted display? Head tracking? As far as I can tell, you have not. You lack facts on HMDs, and apparently the ability to research them, which leaves only your opinion. Which, in this case, is worthless.

Post by **Syntax** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:30 pm

Let the GeekWar begin

Anyways, looking though the lenses of the HMZ was a great experience and if you people liked the 920vr/1200vr you will love Sonys new cybergadget guaranteed. The only concern for me is the lifeexpectancy of the OLED screen but it have (tritosine5G you are right on this one) a transmissive backlight to apparently double the lifespan so who knows ...
So when this thing finally hitting the shelves I think it will be out for examination in electronics stores just like any other TV.There you will have the opportunity to make your own descision if you gonna buy or not to buy (pun attacK)

Post by **Fredz** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:49 pm

Aeroflux wrote:Carmack doesn't make HMDs and seems set against 3D with his game engine (openGL)...so why should I follow the advice of a rock climber on how to scuba dive?

Because he certainly knows a lot more about S3D rendering than anyone here, considering he was also a pionner in stereoscopic rendering in games.

He did implement stereoscopic options for 3D OpenGL rendering in Quake I in 1996, long before Direct3D was a viable solution for gaming and before the existence of the first S3D drivers in 1998 (Wicked Vision).

ioQuake 3D developers also discovered preliminary support for stereo rendering in Quake III which has been released in 1999, 2 years before the NVIDIA stereo driver (2001). So when he speaks about anything related to 3D, I think he knows what he's talking about.

The fact that he's not impressed by the current state of stereo 3D doesn't surprise me either, as it has only been a pretty marginal niche in the gaming market for the 10 past years, and there is really not much showing of any significant progress.

Post by **Aeroflux** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:27 pm

Fredz wrote:
Aeroflux wrote:Carmack doesn't make HMDs and seems set against 3D with his game engine (openGL)...so why should I follow the advice of a rock climber on how to scuba dive?
Because he certainly knows a lot more about S3D rendering than anyone here, considering he was also a pionner in stereoscopic rendering in games.

He did implement stereoscopic options for 3D OpenGL rendering in Quake I in 1996, long before Direct3D was a viable solution for gaming and before the existence of the first S3D drivers in 1998 (Wicked Vision).

ioQuake 3D developers also discovered preliminary support for stereo rendering in Quake III which has been released in 1999, 2 years before the NVIDIA stereo driver (2001). So when he speaks about anything related to 3D, I think he knows what he's talking about.

The fact that he's not impressed by the current state of stereo 3D doesn't surprise me either, as it has only been a pretty marginal niche in the gaming market for the 10 past years, and there is really not much showing of any significant progress.

Getting HD resolutions in a consumer level HMD on a budget is progress. HDMI 1.4a bringing 3D standards to the entire industry, gaming and movies, is BIG progress. All this hardware doesn't do anything if software support is minimal. If Carmack doesn't see it, then he doesn't know how to scuba dive anymore. If he knows so much about S3D then he should be at the front of S3D gaming...it's not as if he would lose much by making his games S3D compatible. Bystanders that know everything and do nothing are useless--as are his comments on a headset that clearly represents progress in consumer level HMDs.

Post by **Fredz** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:57 pm

Aeroflux wrote:Getting HD resolutions in a consumer level HMD on a budget is progress. HDMI 1.4a bringing 3D standards to the entire industry, gaming and movies, is BIG progress.

Yes there is progress on the hardware side, but it's still very marginal and in no way as advanced as what can be expected in 2011.

720p may be HD for marketing guys but it's only 14% better than the older 1024x768 standard resolution, quite far from real HD in 1920p (44% less). And while standards like HDMI 1.4a are certainly welcomed, they also suffer from this 720p limitation for S3D gaming.

It's even worse on the software side, with the NVIDIA stereo driver having less options than the previous XP version, with locked convergence and very limited output possibilities. Also the start of the little S3D war between AMD and NVIDIA over the last Deus Ex iteration was really not in the consumer best interest and doesn't really promise a bright future.

And don't let me start on the total lack of support from game developers, where in most games you must sacrify shadows, post processing effects, particles or details to have a decent experience (with locked convergence most of the time), when the games are playable at all. And when supposedly reputed developers like Crytek decide to implement S3D themselves, they do it totally wrong like in Crysis 2 with their reprojection technique.

Also since 2008 there has only been 15 (yes, FIFTEEN) games featured as 3D Vision Ready on NVIDIA website (even less for AMD HD3D). Heck, from 2009 to 2011 more than 400 games with at least 5 reviews from professionals have been listed on gamerankings. That's less than 4% of the crop, and probably a lot less when considering all releases in that period.

Aeroflux wrote:All this hardware doesn't do anything if software support is minimal. If Carmack doesn't see it, then he doesn't know how to scuba dive anymore.

Not only Carmack, no game editor seems to be convinced either, as none of them did make the tiny investment needed to have their games S3D compatible. Why would he waste his time with this again when he's already been there and done that if he considers there's been only marginal progress at best on the hardware side over the past years ?

I'd like this state of affairs to be different, but I don't see how without major advances. 1080p support for 3D displays in S3D gaming could help though, maybe next year. Or the next generation of consoles, if S3D gaming has not vanished at this time...

Post by **pierreye** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:59 pm

I believe to make HMD popular, Sony need to make a radical move on the next console, PS4. It need to have a native support to head tracking (maybe add-on for HMZ-T1) so that developer will support it. Look at what Nintendo had done with Wii by making motion control as the standard input device. Nintendo force developer to be creative and fully utilize the tools given.

What I would like to see for Sony 2nd revision of HMD to include portable battery pack and option for wireless video streaming + head tracking with PS4 launch. This should help to jump start 360 degree freedom FPS. Maybe we should start sending Sony email on "ideas" for their next gen console or Microsoft for XBOX. Although it is feasible to build a 360 degree gaming with off the shelf item, it is too much for an average gamer. Imagine asking the user to run glovepie, calibrate wiimote plus and install MotionInJoy driver which does required some technical knowledge to get it working.

Post by **cybereality** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:24 pm

Although I would have liked to have had the real-deal full immersion Virtual Reality already, I also can't complain with whats available. Sure, its not great. Even this Sony headset is not the be-all-end-all. But it is a small step forward toward the dream. And that's good enough for me.

Post by **Synexious** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:33 pm

It is definitely coming in our lifetimes. In twenty years it should be basically perfect. In forty, well, it'll probably be very hard to distinguish from reality.

Post by **pierreye** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:36 pm

I'm not sure if this would happen in my lifetime. I'm pushing 40 coming few years. Not sure how many gaming years left in me.

Post by **cybereality** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:40 pm

You also have to factor in advances in medicine in the coming years. We could very well be living to 100 and beyond.

Post by **Synexious** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:49 pm

Exactly. My father thinks he'll live to 120. He's 50 now, and a health enthusiast since 16. I'm 19. I plan to see the 22nd century.

Post by **WiredEarp** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:03 pm

@ fredz: 'it's even worse on the software side, with the NVIDIA stereo driver having less options than the previous XP version, with locked convergence and very limited output possibilities'

While I dont like the loss of functionality in the new driver, I believe you can change convergence? Isn't that what CTRL+F5 / CTRL+F6 is doing?

Post by **cybereality** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:15 pm

WiredEarp wrote: I believe you can change convergence? Isn't that what CTRL+F5 / CTRL+F6 is doing?

Not on some titles that are supposedly "3D Vision Ready", for example Resident Evil 5.

Post by **tritosine5G** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:42 pm

Plenty apparent Sony is pulling a bait and switch tactic now, OLED was always overpromised, there were better display technologies 15 years ago, its another matter you can't buy it .

100% bait and switch

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:30 am

This device is OLED. I don't think Sony is lying. People have already tried the unit out. Its for real.

Post by **PalmerTech** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:56 am

tritosine5G wrote:Plenty apparent Sony is pulling a bait and switch tactic now, OLED was always overpromised, there were better display technologies 15 years ago, its another matter you can't buy it .

There were better display technologies that fit into a lightweight headset? No.

Address my other points or GTFO.

Post by **Synexious** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:18 pm

Hahahaha!

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:41 pm

Ok guys, keep it classy.

Post by **WiredEarp** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:24 pm

@Cyber 'Not on some titles that are supposedly "3D Vision Ready", for example Resident Evil 5.'

Gah. I HATE being locked into things. Thats why I don't really like consoles. Stupid crap like this pisses me off!

Post by **WiredEarp** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:26 pm

@ tritosine5G: What better display technologies 15 years ago?
I highly doubt we had much in the way of cheap, 720P, high brightness, small displays back then...

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:23 pm

WiredEarp wrote:@ tritosine5G: What better display technologies 15 years ago?
I highly doubt we had much in the way of cheap, 720P, high brightness, small displays back then...

It's 15 years ago for him, since he clearly lives in the year 2042.

Post by **ancjob** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:28 pm

cybereality wrote:This device is OLED. I don't think Sony is lying. People have already tried the unit out. Its for real.

also as an alternative why can't they use SXGA [1280x1024] LCDs screens instead of oleds which i believe have issues with lifespans even the makers of z800 3dvisor do not offer more than 3 months warranty for their coveted z800...... , probably SXGA LCDs are too too expensive than oleds to implement - who knows...

Post by **WiredEarp** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:47 am

Personally, I think something could be done with DLP's which haven't really been exploited so for HMD's as far as I know. But all of this should be in other threads.

Post by **tritosine5G** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:33 am

Can't help guys, HMD pundits told me im so wrong..

Just let HMD step into commercial limelight, this will be big, it's real!

These guys team up, we'll get tracking in no time dudes.

LMAO

Post by **tritosine5G** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:02 am

Post by **tritosine5G** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:22 am

Why we remain optimistic in the face of reality
(...) The results of the brain scans suggested why this might be the case. All participants showed increased activity in the frontal lobes of the brain when the information given was better than expected; this activity actively processed the information to recalculate an estimate. However, when the information was worse than estimated, the more optimistic a participant was (according to the personality questionnaire), the less efficiently activity in these frontal regions coded for it, suggesting they were disregarding the evidence presented to them.

Dr Sharot adds: "Our study suggests that *we*pick* and choose the information that we listen to. The more optimistic we are, the less likely we are to be influenced by negative information about the future. This can have benefits for our mental health, but there are obvious downsides. Many experts believe the financial crisis in 2008 was precipitated by analysts overestimating the performance of their assets even in the face of clear evidence to the contrary."

Commenting on the study, Dr John Williams, Head of Neuroscience and Mental Health at the Wellcome Trust, said: "Being optimistic must clearly have some benefits, but is it always helpful and why do some people have a less rosy outlook on life? Understanding how some people always manage to remain optimistic could provide useful insights into what happens when our brains do not function properly."

http://www.kurzweilai.net/brain-imaging ... of-reality" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You may think you're defending your favorite platform because it's just that good. But, according to a recently published study out of the University of Illinois, you may instead be defending yourself because you view criticisms of your favorite brand as a threat to your self image. The study, which will be published in the next issue of the Journal of Consumer Psychology, examines the strength of consumer-brand relationships, concluding that those who have more knowledge of and experience with a brand are more personally impacted by incidents of brand "failure."

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/201 ... -image.ars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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