Need help choosing the ultimate 3D-Ready video card...

Post by **ignatius** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:57 pm

Hey guys

I'm replacing my old 9800gx2 with a new videocard

The gx2 had a long run and it served me well but it has been constantly failing me for the past 2 months..

Basically I'm having trouble choosing between these 3 cards

Nvidia Gtx 295
Ati 6870 BLACK edition (slightly faster than regular)
Ati xfx 5870

Basically I will be doing a lot of 3d gaming... and I was wondering what card you think would serve me the best.

I've done some research and I know that the Gtx 295 is clearly the most powerful, but because of its dual gpu sometimes it doesn't perform as well and its a power hog and it doesn't support directx11

I know the 6870 Black edition is the newest however its not as powerful as the 5870..

Currently I'm leaning towards the 5870 the most...because its more powerful than the 6870 and it also supports dx11 unlike the gtx 295

When it comes to price... They are all almost identical however all 3 of my options are used cards...

The Gtx 295 is $210
The 6870 Black Ed is $210
The Xfx ati 5870 is 220$

However thats the asking price and I will guarantee I will be able to get either one of these for $200(CAD) or less!

Also I might have the opportunity to get a gtx 470...however the guy is asking a bit too much around 250(CAD)..

But at the moment I'm really liking the 5870

Just to let u guys know My pc is
Xeon Quad core 2.66ghz
8 gigs of ram

Also if anybody knows please tell me if The gtx having 2 separate gpu's is a bonus or not for 3d gaming.

I will not be using a 3d monitor, I have a dual projector setup

Thanks a ton you guys

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:22 pm

Stay as far away from SLI/CF and dual GPU cards as humanly possible if you want to do stereo 3d. Although there is some support for SLI (for example, with the Nvidia driver), traditionally dual-GPU solutions did not work at all with 3D and, in fact, would give lower performance than just a single card. iZ3D does now have some support for SLI/CF but only with single output modes (like anaglyph, interlaced, etc.). Dual output mode does not work with SLI. So you want to get the fastest single-card/single-GPU solution you can afford. I use the GTX 470 and I am pretty happy with it. Most games can be played on High setting in 3D and still get playable framerates. High-end stuff like Metro2033 needs to be run on lower settings, but is still playable and looks great. The 5870 should be comparable to that, maybe even better on certain games. For $220, that seems like a nice deal.

Post by **ignatius** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:53 pm

Hey cyber,

Thanks for the input.

My 9800 GX2 is actually a dual-gpu in 1 and i've been using it perfectly fine for 3D for years. So i'm a little confused why dual-gpu's may not work as well as a single gpu. To me, I would imagine that a dual-gpu should work better, since each left and right eye image can have it's own independent gpu.

I wish there were more video card reviews for 3D so we can really see the difference between single vs. dual-gpu cards. Unless you have some pretty concrete answers about that?

What resolution are you playing metro 2033 and how are you playing it in 3D? Monitor? projector?

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:46 am

Yeah, conceptually it would seem that dual-GPU was made just for stereo 3d, but it seems to be problematic for whatever reason. From what I understand, SLI/CF traditionally had only supported one single DVI output (all other ports would be disabled). This was a pretty big deal actually, especially for people running multi-monitor configurations. For many years this was the case (and still is in some cases). I think recently Nvidia has fixed this, probably for use with the 3D Vision Surround. I think it was a similar situation for ATI/AMD but I only use Nvidia so I am not as familiar. You say your GX2 works perfectly fine, with what configuration? Is this with dual projector, what 3d driver, what OS? Are you certain it is actually utilizing both GPUs on the card? From everything I have read this doesn't work (admittedly I don't have dual projectors, so I have never tested this myself).

I'm using the 22" Zalman Trimon monitor. It runs at 1680x1050 (interlaced). If I set Metro2033 to all the lowest settings I can get up to 80fps with the Nvidia driver (can drop to maybe 30fps in heavy scenes). iz3D driver is slower, and doesn't really look as nice, but it works.

Post by **Zerofool** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:39 am

ignatius wrote:Basically I'm having trouble choosing between these 3 cards

Nvidia Gtx 295
Ati 6870 BLACK edition (slightly faster than regular)
Ati xfx 5870

Hi, I'd advise you to wait a bit if possible. GTX 560 (Ti) will be released in just one week (on 25th), and it will be just a bit faster than GTX 470, but with lower power consumption (as well as temperature and noise). Its price is still unknown, because AMD is currently planning 1GB versions of their HD 6950 and 6970 cards (to fight that same GTX 560 card), with sub-300$ prices (probably around 250$ and 280$ (USD) respectively). Most likely GTX 560 will cost around 230-250$, and it will have killer performance for its price (also, it's rumored to overclock quite well (almost reaching the stock performance of GTX 570) despite its already high stock speeds). But let's just wait a week and see

.

ignatius wrote:To me, I would imagine that a dual-gpu should work better, since each left and right eye image can have it's own independent gpu.

Unfortunately both AMD/ATI and Nvidia see things differently. In CF/SLI the AFR (alternate frame rendering) technique is used, meaning that the first card will render both left and right views at the same time, and the other card will also render left and right views at this same time, but for the next frame. But I hope this will change in the future, in case a 3D display (and driver) is recognized in the system (which would require some serious GPU driver rewriting and tweaking, and also collaboration with the 3D driver maker, therefore, it's not very likely to happen, with the exception of nvidia - they probably will do that for their 3D Vision driver).

Post by **Chiefwinston** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:18 am

Hmm, thanks for the heads up Zerofool. I'm looking for a nice new card myself. that card looks like it has winner written all over it.

Cheers everyone

Post by **BlackShark** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:58 pm

I own a dual projector setup and I use the 5870.
The sync is perfect when using Eyefinity mode (requires the application to output side by side full resolution) but without it (the traditional "dual projector" mode) the sync issues are really bad.
I have not tested Nvidia cards, I constantly read reports saying there is a problem, then it's fixed, then someone else still complains about it.

I have not tested the new 6870 cards, I know from reviews that it's slighly less powerful than the 5870 but mayybe the overclocking will make the difference. However there is absolutely no point in choosing a 6870 for performance. The real interesting bit is the hdmi 1.4 and DP1.2 outputs.
I know you don't need them now because you're using the dual projector, but if you want to future-proof you investment you must have it.

The reason is actually very simple : compatibility with content.
In the future, more and more applications will have native 3D support, this support will be done through a unified driver managed directly by the GPU driver. Applications won't support dual projectors anymore, they'll just output to the GPU driver and the GPU driver does the rest.
In an ideal world , the GPU driver would provide support for dual projectors, but in the real world things aren't looking well. Nvidia clearly does not want to support anything else than 3D vision or make it as tedious as possible to use 3DTV play exclusively through hdmi 1.4, and AMD considers dual projectors as a "Legacy" 3D system and does not really care about it and prefers to focus on hdmi 1.4 and Display Port. In other words, with dual projectors, we won't get the best content.

The only viable long term solution will be to use either hdmi1.4 or DisplayPort 3D and then add a hardware demultiplexer between the graphics card and the projectors to split the picture between the left and right eye views. Such a demultiplexer does not exist yet, but it is the only solution that will provide a viable solution and which I believe has a high probability of happening. There is one thing however : I have no idea which will come first : an hdmi or DP demultiplexer.

So to sum up :
If you intend to change GPU in the next two years, go with the 5870, otherwise there are just too many unknowns so I recommend the 6870 to maximize the chances of getting proper reliable support.

Post by **ignatius** » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:35 pm

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the great feedback, i learned a lot.

@cyber - I have a dual projector system, using windows 7 64bit , but i've used xp and vista perfectly fine as well. And i've only used iz3d drivers since in the past ddd sucked (maybe they still do) and I couldn't really use nvidia drivers since they don't support dual projectors which is stupid as hell. I'm pretty sure i'm utilizing both my gpu's because there is an option with this card that allows me to combine both gpus into 1 or separate them. Whenever i combined them, iz3d would only be able to recognize 1 image out of the left/right. But when i separated the 2 gpus to act independently, iz3d drivers was able to draw both left/right images.

@blackshark - What's eyefinity mode? I'm not very familiar with DisplayPort 3D either...

After some further research and considering everyones input. I am leaning towards the 6870 since it is newer and supports hdmi 1.4 which may or may not be useful in the future if i ever need to use that type of connection. I'm also considering the gtx560 if i can get it at a good price. Since i can get the 6870 below $200.

Post by **ignatius** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:46 pm

I got a quick question.

I can buy a brand new 6870 for $200. But all this talk about the 560 coming out I was wondering if prices of other cards would drop because of it's release. And if I were to wait for the 560 to come out and wait for other cards to dip in price and go for those.

I can't get the 560 since it will be a bit over my price range.

I can only get the 6870 for $200 in the next couple days so I gotta make a decision quick and see if it's worth it or wait another week and see what the 560 does to the market.

Post by **ignatius** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:42 pm

Another quick question as I'm researching a lot on what card to get.

I wasn't considering on buying the gtx 460 since it's a bit inferior to the 6870. However, I can purchase two 460 cards fairly cheap and setup an SLI rig. However, as you guys mentioned there's a weak support for SLI when it comes to 3D stereoscopic gaming.

But, since these two cards would use nvidia drivers, and it seems like the latest drivers have greater support for sli including 3D as cyberreality mentioned. Now I'm uncertain which way to go.

I would love to have an SLI system especially for 3D and play games in beautiful 3D in 1080p flawlessly on a 100" projector screen. What do you guys think? Is it possible? Should I go for it?

Regards,
V

Post by **cybereality** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:47 pm

If you can afford SLI, you can afford to get a better single card. Not worth the headache.

Post by **ignatius** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:57 pm

But when i compare an SLI rig with a single card at a similar price, the SLI dominates for the same price. That's why im considering the SLI rig. Same price, better performance.

I'm curious tough, I've never done SLI before, but I'm guessing it would require more PSU output. I have a pretty solid antec 850watt psu, you think that could manage the two 460 cards?

Post by **cybereality** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:20 am

Yes, but you are looking at 2D benchmarks and assuming they hold true for stereo 3d. If you were running a 3D Vision solution, than that is another story. Nvidia does have SLI support with their own driver. But I'm still not sure iz3D even supports SLI with dual output modes.

Post by **ignatius** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:33 am

Yeah I'd also like to find out how iz3d supports sli/cf. It's a pretty big deal since it can drastically improve gameplay performance.

It's too bad nvidia doesn't have native dual output support. I'm trying to find out if radeon is the same way and I'm thinking it is...

Do you know if iz3d is updating their drivers to support dx11?

Post by **BlackShark** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:43 am

ignatius wrote:Hey guys,
@blackshark - What's eyefinity mode? I'm not very familiar with DisplayPort 3D either...

Eyefinity is the name of AMD's multi-monitor surround gaming system. It's used to stack up to 6 displays horizontlly and vertically into a video wall. It's used a lot to play games with a 3-monitor horizontal span, to get a very wide field of view.

I use this feature to group my two projectors into a horizontal video wall. The driver creates a virtual desktop that combines the two desktops associated with the displays into a single large surface. The big difference between using eyefinity and the usual windows extended desktop is that with eyefinity the desktop is considered as a single surface which is maintained as a whole in perfect sync at all times.
When using the traditional windows extended desktop (which all applications designed for dual-projectors application use) the two displays are managed independantly which causes the displays to unsync and tearing in one eye due to the V-sync often failing.

Display Port 3D is the nickname for the 3D modes of the Display Port 1.2 specification. The HD6xxx series claim to support it but there are no displays that use it at this time.

Post by **cybereality** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:39 am

Well it looks like some games have limited support for SLI on iz3D, but for the most part it seems useless and also breaks a lot of games. See this thread:
http://forum.iz3d.com/viewtopic.php?p=25423#25423" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **Zerofool** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:14 pm

A quick update - It appears that this rumor about 6970 1GB being priced at ~280$ was wrong, and 6950 1GB will cost that much (6970 1GB will be more than 300$). The latest news suggest a price for GTX 560 Ti in the 260-280$ range for the reference boards, the overclocked editions being more expensive.

ignatius wrote:I got a quick question.

I can buy a brand new 6870 for $200. But all this talk about the 560 coming out I was wondering if prices of other cards would drop because of it's release. And if I were to wait for the 560 to come out and wait for other cards to dip in price and go for those.

I can't get the 560 since it will be a bit over my price range.

I can only get the 6870 for $200 in the next couple days so I gotta make a decision quick and see if it's worth it or wait another week and see what the 560 does to the market.

To answer your questions - yes, the card will cause some price movement in this segment, but it probably will take few weeks before that happens. And the segment we are talking about is in the high 200s, not the low end (that you are interested in), so I guess if you have to make the decision before Tuesday - go for the 6870.

Post by **ignatius** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:41 am

Ended up getting the 6870, let's hope it was a worthwhile purchase.

I loved my 9800gx2, lasted with me for a long time and the 3D performance was more than satisfying. But I'm expecting a lot out of this 6870 since it should be significantly better than my old 9800gx2.

Post by **tritosine5G** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:25 am

cybereality wrote:Well it looks like some games have limited support for SLI on iz3D, but for the most part it seems useless and also breaks a lot of games. See this thread:
http://forum.iz3d.com/viewtopic.php?p=25423#25423" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's a trainwreck, my GTS250 SLI is examplary here, I 'll wait until 28nm

Post by **ignatius** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:28 pm

hmmm...seems like i overlooked one aspect of buying the ati card without realizing it's compatibility with 3d-ready monitors.

I had assumed any 3d-ready monitor would work with the ati cards and i could use some form of 3d glasses like nvidia's 3d vision or from a 3rd party. Assumed wrong it seems. Pretty unfortunate that nvidia dominates the 3d market so terribly and not enough people are competing against them.

Now i'm trying to think of other alternatives to use my ati card with compatible 3d monitors or 3d tv's.

There's the Viewsonic V3D241wm that doesn't seem bad, but may be hard to find or a bit too expensive.

I used to own the first set of 3d tv's that were launched by samsung a few years back and bought a pair of shutter glasses. I'm curious to learn if i could still use them with my ati card some how. With some kind of adapter.

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:32 pm

You can use Zalman with AMD cards. Its not a bad solution.

Post by **ignatius** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:12 pm

Cool, i'll consider the zalman and compare them with other options.

I came across this ridiculous offer that i thought i would share with you 3d enthusiasts.

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-VIERA-T ... 38&sr=1-30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's an amazing price tag.

So i was thinking, if i bought this and used the panasonic 3d shutter glasses, hooked it up to my ati card I should be able to play games in 3D right? But only with a 3rd party driver like iz3d correct?

I was looking to get a small 23" 3d monitor but since the selection is slim the alternative might just be a 3dtv. Reason I'm looking to get a monitor or 3dtv is simply be able to play 3D quickly and easily without having to set up the projectors all the time. With the bonus of sitting in daylight since the projector screen doesn't like any light other than the ones coming from the projector.

By the way, great job on the auto-stereo solution cyberreality. That's pretty kickass, I wish i could see it or get the time to try it myself some time.

Post by **ignatius** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:35 pm

I checked out the zalman screens, the 21.5" would cost $500 and the 23" would be $600. That is incredibly expensive and I'm a huge fan of passive polarization than shutter, i hate that crap. But, damn that's an expensive monitor. I would've bought that in a heart beat if it was priced at around $400-450 unfortunately it's not.

If you compare those to the 3dtv I posted above, i believe you would be getting much more for your money. Bigger screen, better picture quality, more inputs/outputs, hook up anything you want to it, it can be your 3d computer screen for pc gaming, or a regular 3d tv for watching 3d movies or 3d games with the ps3.

If anyone has a better recommendation, i would love to hear it.

Post by **Zerofool** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:47 am

Hi ignatius, congrats on your new card. I hope you'll soon find appropriate 3D display.

I just want to let you guys know what the final price cuts from AMD are, and the MSRP for the GTX 560 Ti:
http://www.techpowerup.com/139121/AMD-S ... ducts.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Radeon HD 6870 1 GB: 189.99€, $219
Radeon HD 6950 1 GB: 225.00€, $259
Radeon HD 6950 2 GB: 239.99€, $269~289

The reference 560 Ti starts at 249.99$.
http://www.fudzilla.com/graphics/item/2 ... 2%82%AC216" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications ... rchbtn.y=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's a (growing) list of reviews:
http://forums.vr-zone.com/news-around-t ... views.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **ignatius** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:34 am

@ BlackShark

I'm planning to buy the displayport to sync up the two projectors perfectly. I've seen quite a bit of 3D footage with my 6870 so far and i can notice the syncing problem.

To get eyefinity to work the way you explained it, would i require just 1 active displayport adapter for 1 of the projectors, or 2 active displayport adapters for the 2 projectors?

Best,

Post by **cybereality** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:59 pm

Yes, you can use 3D HDTVs with iz3d or DDD drivers but *ONLY* with AMD video cards. The Panasonic is a nice kit, you'd probably be happy with that. I admit the Zalman is a little expensive, but not ridiculous for a 3D monitor. The 24" one is about $700. For the best 23" 3D Vision monitor (Planar) it will cost you $675 w/ the glasses. So the price is comparable. However the Zalman is not full resolution, so the image quality itself may not compare. The HDTV would certainly look nice, its more about if you want to use something that big as a monitor (for web browsing, etc.).

Post by **ignatius** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:00 pm

Yeah, i've decided it's not worth paying $500+ for a small 3D monitor when i can pay a bit more and get a huge 3dtv.

I'm just going to have to wait for prices to become more reasonable to have a 3D monitor I can use for typical computer usage.

Post by **BlackShark** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:41 pm

I do not use the Display port connector for my projectors. They are both connected to the two DVI ports of my HD5870. (with passive DVI to hdmi adapters)
I just plug my monitor to the Display Port via a VGA adapter so that I don't need to crawl behind the computer to unplug/re-plug my displays every time i want to switch between the dual projectors and the desk monitor.

Post by **ignatius** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:01 pm

Oh i see, I was under the impression that i needed a displayport adapter in order to enable the ati eyefinity mode.

Post by **cybereality** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:20 pm

ignatius wrote:Oh i see, I was under the impression that i needed a displayport adapter in order to enable the ati eyefinity mode.

You only need an active adapter if you want to do triple-screen Eyefinity.

Post by **ignatius** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:18 am

I tried using the eyefinity mode, but iz3d wouldn't work. My guess is because iz3d only sees 1 monitor instead of 2 monitors when i normally have both projectors having their own displays.

What are you doing differently to get eyefinity working with iz3d blackshark?

Post by **BlackShark** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:50 am

Indeed, when using eyefinity, windows (and the iZ3D driver) will only see a single display, so the dual-projector mode won't be able to locate the second display.

You have to use side by side mode.
Unfortunately, iZ3D's side by side mode is only a frame-compatible half resolution (for 3DTVs), not the full resolution required by a dual projector setup. So the games will render the huge Eyefinity 3840x1080 resolution (which reduces performance, but at least you have a bonus 2X SSAA), and a too wide 32:9 aspect ratio. So the picture will look all stretched.
There may be some games (or maybe game hacks) which allow changing the aspect ratio, but they aren't many.

iZ3D is aware of the issue and promised a new output mode to fix this issue in an upcoming driver version but they didn't specify any ETA.
http://forum.iz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=3293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:09 pm

Iz3D has a "cross-eye" side-by-side mode which is at full aspect ratio. If you were to run this on a virtual screen (that is twice the width of one screen) then it should look the same as dual projector mode.

Post by **BlackShark** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:08 am

The cross-eye mode is indeed full aspect ratio but it is not full screen : it automatically downscales the picture to half height, no matter what the width is, so it won't work.

Post by **ignatius** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:00 am

Hey guys,

I thought i would resurrect this thread again since it relates to my question.

Since i didn't realize that i couldn't use any 3d monitor that would support my ati card. I was wondering if any 3Dtv i hook up to it will work with iz3d?

I was thinking about getting this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXfdcsT7uG8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks.

Post by **BlackShark** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:38 am

3DTVs use hdmi 1.4
They will work with any graphics cards but they have limited resolutions :
you'll be pretty much be gaming in 720p since 1080p only works with 24hz input (it's for BluRays only).
The only exception are Samsung TVs which also have a manual compatibility mode with checkerboard input (which is better quality than the standard 720p these TVs usually use)

I know Panasonic offers the best 3DTVs available, but they have only the bare minimum for format compatibility.
Samsung's Plasmas are just a little bit behind, but they are cheaper and they're the most compatible 3DTVs on the market.

Post by **ignatius** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:48 pm

Interesting, thanks blackshark.

I will look into some potential samsung 3dtv's.

Some new panasonic 3dtv's are about to be released, such as the vt30 and the gt30. Hopefully these new tv's have better 3d compatibility. So i'll be waiting to see what happens to the market and if there will be any new 3dtv's from samsung as well.

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:58 pm

You can use that Panasonic TV with the iz3D drivers. For HDMI 1.4 mode you just need a recent ATI card (if you do Nvidia you will have to use the Nvidia 3D TV Play software). In any case, you can only get 720P @ 60Hz, not the full 1080P 3D that you get with Blu-Ray. You can also use the iz3D driver in 1080P side-by-side mode, which will work with any video card, but will be reduced quality. Still should look alright, though.

Post by **BlackShark** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:57 am

The easiest way to know what compatibility formats the TV has is to look through their user's manuals downloadable online, and see how easy/hard it is to manually set the TV into 3D mode and which format is used.

Post by **Dom** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:17 pm

I heard if you have a 3dtv that supports checkerboard pageflip you can game at 1080p and seems to make others happier than using framepacked 720p. Look here http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=191819" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;