Tridef 3D Ignition problem with PhysX games, solution?...

[2umind]

UPDATE: Got it to work... I tried adding the line and adding to registry, didn't work. Because I have
a 64 bit system I had to go into HKey_Local_Mechine/ Software/ Wow6432Node/ Nvidia Corporation...
then click the Stereo 3D folder to find the line StereoAnaglyphType. Then change the value from 1 to 0.
Thanks Fredz, game is looking great now, no more dull colors with Nvidia 3D Anaglyph mode.
If your using 32 bit system this line should be in HKey_Local_Mechine/ Software/ Nvidia Corporation/ Stereo 3D.


TRIDEF SLOWDOWN WITH PHYSX STILL AN ISSUE.
I'm posting this in General 3D Discussion because more people will see this and therefore there's more of a chance of finding a solution.
I've been having a problem with Mirror's Edge where whenever I get into a physx heavy environment, glass breaking for example, the game slows from 60 fps to about 2 fps. At first this was happening with or without starting the game through Ignition. So I looked on google and it was a common problem with two files in the game's Binaries directory that needed to be removed. PhysXcore.dll, and PhysXDevice.dll. I did that and now without Tridef Ignition PhysX areas in the game run as smoothly as the rest at around 60fps but when I start the game with tridef 3D whether the 3D is on or not I get that same slowdown as before to about 2 fps. Nvidia 3D runs smoothly even in heavy PhysX areas so its not the 3D for sure.

The problem is that the game is somehow using the CPU instead of the GPU (Nvidia GTX260) to compute the physx effects. This for some reason was fixed by removing those files, but NOT when I start with Tridef Ignition, the problem is still there. So something with Tridef is triggering the game to use the CPU, is there anyway that you guys can test this on your end and confim this with me. Maybe we can find a fix for this problem. Thanks, some details...

Mirrors Edge version 1.01 patched.
TriDef Latest Version
Nvidia Latest Graphics Drivers, beta and whql and problem still there with both
Nvidia 3D vision drivers and running, with or without, and problem still there
Reinstall game doesn't fix, reinstall physx doesn't fix, reinstall gfx drivers same
tried with physx drivers 8.04, 8.10, 9.09 and latest as well but same problem
Nvidia 3D vision's 3D works fine in the game in PhysX areas when not started with tridef ignition but of course Tridefs color is much better ;(



So one question I have, does tridef start Mirror's Edge in a mode differently than the game does normally? Are there any dlls that tridef uses that might be triggering this, for example could some bit of code in one of these dlls be causing it...
TriDefD3D9.dll
TriDefDXGI.dll
TriDefIgnition.dll

That's about it, I hope this can be solved before any similar problems happen with future PhysX games.

[cybereality]

Woah! I don't think I ever saw Nvidia 3D Discover mode. Why does it look so bad? There is like no color at all. Also, if I enable PhysX on Mirror's Edge, the game crashes my computer after a couple of minutes (even in 2D with all 3D drivers disabled). Not sure if the 1.01 patch or the new PhysX driver will fix this for me. So I am not sure I can really help you with your problem, seeing as I can't even verify that it works on my end. Maybe if I get a chance this weekend I will look into it.

[2umind]

Well 1.01 patch does fix the game from crashing. Once you get 1.01 installed though make sure either latest physx is installed and rename Physxdevice.dll and
PhysxCore.dll in "Program Files/Nvidia Corporation/Physx" to .bak and delete those two same dlls from the games binaries directory. Then check to see
if the game slows down on Flight level in checkpoint b, where gaurds shoot the glass out. If the game doesn't slow down it's using your gpu, if it does
then you might want to give up because the proccess from there gets complicated. If you get that far and the physx works fine, then your set
to check and see if with tridef the physx in the game causes slowdowns or not. Obviously I've tried everything under the sun that someone
with basic knowledge of how this all works can do, so hopefully we get a real expert on dlls and 3d in here.

[Fredz]

Woah! I don't think I ever saw Nvidia 3D Discover mode. Why does it look so bad? There is like no color at all.

It's not the NVIDIA version that looks bad, it's the TriDef one. With the NVIDIA driver there is a color correction done to minimize retinal rivalry but there is no such thing with the TriDef driver. The colors look washed out with the NVIDIA driver especially in this particular game (Mirror's Edge) because there are a lot of "pure" colors (blue, white, red, etc.), but the end result is that it's a lot more comfortable for the eyes and the depth perception is better.

Have a look here to better understand the problem : http://www.swell3d.com/color-anaglyph-m ... mpare.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NVIDIA is probably using the well known Dubois algorithm for color correction as described here : http://www.site.uottawa.ca/~edubois/anaglyph/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is an example which better demonstrates the benefits of the Dubois algorithm :



You can still choose other rendering methods for anaglyphs with the NVIDIA stereo driver if you don't like the colors, but that would really be a mistake IMO :
StereoAnaglyphType
"StereoAnaglyphType"=dword:00000000 Full-Color-Anaglyph-mode
"StereoAnaglyphType"=dword:00000001 3D-Vision-Discover Half-color-mode with color-correction-shader
"StereoAnaglyphType"=dword:00000002 Black/White-Anaglyph-Mode

[cybereality]

Yes, I have seen "optimized" anaglyph types before and they do address major issues with retinal rivalry and/or color accuracy. However that shot of Nvidia 3D Discover just does not look good at all. I mean, even grayscale anaglyph I think would be better. I guess they are reducing the retinal rivalry but at the cost of ruining the colors. Standard red/cyan anaglyph is fine on a lot of games, although with Mirror's Edge maybe not so much since they use a lot of solid reds and blues. As I understand it the OP used a camera to take the Nvidia screenshot (while the DDD driver exports in anaglpyh) so its not exactly a fair comparison. I would have to see the Nvidia implementation myself I guess to judge for sure.

[cybereality]

Ok, I had to see this for myself. So I went ahead and pulled some pins on a DVI->VGA adapter so that Nvidia would no longer recognize my Zalman. Now I can use the 3D Vision Discover mode. I then used my Pro-Ana glasses and tested Mirror's Edge. While the experience was a little better than that screenshot appears, it was not great. Well, the 3D effect was pretty good. And there was low ghosting and almost no retinal rivalry. But the colors were horribly bland. It just killed the game for me. I did also try UT2004 and the color loss was not as bad (Mirror's Edge is probably the worst game to play with this method). However then I loaded up Mirror's Edge again with regular red/cyan mode in iz3d and the experience was like 300% better. The 3D effect was generally identical (as you would expect) but the color reproduction was insanely better. Blues, greens and yellows were all faithfully reproduced. Red had some extreme retinal rivalry, yes, but it still was perceived as "red". So while it looked funny, it didn't lose the color completely. Blues, on the other hand, were basically perfect. Green was also good. Yellow was alright, but orange had some issues (not as bad as red though). Ghosting might have been marginally more with red/cyan than with the 3D Discover, but it was not a huge deal either way. I don't know. I just don't see any reason people would prefer this 3D Discover mode. I tried to take some screenshots, but I could not find a method that would capture what I was seeing on the screen (the screenshots all came out either in 2D or full-quality 3D). But the standard red/cyan mode was a lot better, at least for Mirror's Edge. Just to give Nvidia the benefit of the doubt, I ordered a pair of their 3D Vision Discover glasses. Maybe the filters they use have some special magic not included with the Pro-Ana glasses. Also, in my search I found that there are knock-off glasses from Hong Kong bearing the Nvidia 3D Vision Discover branding:

HK_3D_Vision.jpg

But to try to get back on topic, I did also test Mirror's Edge with the DDD TriDef driver. I had to first get the 1.01 patch to solve the PhysX crashing issues I was talking about. So it works fine now and is completely stable. However I did have the same exact problem with low framerates on DDD. At first the speed is normal (60fps) but after some PhysX happens it drops down into unplayable realms (like 3fps). There is no problem with Nvidia or Iz3D drivers. I am using a GTX 470 on Vista 32-bit.

[cybereality]

So I decided to just take some photos with my camera. Obviously the quality sucks, but it should equally suck for both solutions. Please look at these shots with your favorite pair of anaglyph glasses (I used Pro-Ana). When looking at them next to each other, the Nvidia doesn't look so bad. However when actually playing I felt there was a much bigger different. Something about the red/cyan mode just looked more vibrant. Also, disregard the increased ghosting you might see on the Nvidia shots. This is probably because the 3D settings were not the same on both drivers (Nvidia has way more separation). So don't compare the 3D effect, just the color reproduction.

Nvidia-3D-Vision-Discover-VS-IZ3D-Red-Cyan_01.jpg

Nvidia-3D-Vision-Discover-VS-IZ3D-Red-Cyan_02.jpg

Nvidia-3D-Vision-Discover-VS-IZ3D-Red-Cyan_03.jpg

Nvidia-3D-Vision-Discover-VS-IZ3D-Red-Cyan_04.jpg

Nvidia-3D-Vision-Discover-VS-IZ3D-Red-Cyan_05.jpg

Nvidia-3D-Vision-Discover-VS-IZ3D-Red-Cyan_06.jpg

Nvidia-3D-Vision-Discover-VS-IZ3D-Red-Cyan_07.jpg

Nvidia-3D-Vision-Discover-VS-IZ3D-Red-Cyan_08.jpg

[Likay]

I guess that the images from the camera ghosts way more than it does in reality because of the cameras faithfulness to the original colors. It's kinda hard to name a fave. There's a simlar thread on the nvidiaforums with screenshots where i actually found the discover mode better than the tridef one. The op on the other hand found the tridef better because colors was better reproduced (i assumed it was because of no optimizing algorithm). I think there are a many different ways to implement anaglyph algorithms (replacing troublesome colors before anaglyphing, set how much each color affect a special color@iz3d custom anaglyph) but all will suffer from either retinal rivalry vs color reproduction. The first choice of anaglyph if full/half/grey or optimized seem to vary widely from person to person.

[Fredz]

Yes, I have seen "optimized" anaglyph types before and they do address major issues with retinal rivalry and/or color accuracy.

Algorithms used to optimize anaglyph only try to address retinal rivalry, in doing this the color accuracy will always be compromised. As Likay said it's always a choice between retinal rivalry and color accuracy, you can't have both.

The color denaturation of the Dubois algorithm is probably more suited to real photos or videos than video games, but I still prefer it over unoptimized anaglyphs for any type of content. Retinal rivalry is very distracting to me, it makes some parts of the images vibrate (red and cyan zones mainly) which is uncomfortable and makes it hard to evaluate depth on these zones.

[2umind]

UPDATE: Got it to work... I tried adding the line and adding to registry, didn't work. Because I have
a 64 bit system I had to go into HKey_Local_Mechine/ Software/ Wow6432Node/ Nvidia Corporation...
then click the Stereo 3D folder to find the line StereoAnaglyphType. Then change the value from 1 to 0.
Thanks Fredz, game is looking great now, no more dull colors with Nvidia 3D Anaglyph mode.
If your using 32 bit system this line should be in HKey_Local_Mechine/ Software/ Nvidia Corporation/ Stereo 3D.

You can still choose other rendering methods for anaglyphs with the NVIDIA stereo driver if you don't like the colors, but that would really be a mistake IMO :
StereoAnaglyphType
"StereoAnaglyphType"=dword:00000000 Full-Color-Anaglyph-mode
"StereoAnaglyphType"=dword:00000001 3D-Vision-Discover Half-color-mode with color-correction-shader
"StereoAnaglyphType"=dword:00000002 Black/White-Anaglyph-Mode

How do I do this, is this in regedit somewhere in the registry, or a config file somewhere I'm not seeing.
All I could find was this in ntstdef.reg in Program Files/Nvidia Corporation/3D vision...

"StereoViewerType"=dword:00000001
"StereoSeparation"=dword:0000000f
"StereoDefaultOn"=dword:00000001
"ControlPanel"=dword:00000000
"GammaAdjustMore"=dword:00000247
"GammaAdjustLess"=dword:00000447
"AnaglyphEnabled"=dword:deadbeef
"LeftAnaglyphFilter"=dword:ffff0000
"RightAnaglyphFilter"=dword:ff00ffff
"StereoGamma"=dword:3f800000

So what do I change in that to get the regular Full Color Anaglyph Mode, is it ViewerType?
Or do I add the line you gave for it to the file and add to registry? Thanks.

[cybereality]

I just want to give an update. I actually bought the Nvidia 3D Vision Discover glasses so I could see for myself. You can get them on eBay for around $2.

Nvidia-3D-Vision-Discover_01.jpg

After seeing it in person I am going to have to take back what I said. It looks a lot better with the real Nvidia glasses than with generic red/cyan ones. It seems Nvidia has used some special filters in this that are not the same as the other anaglyph glasses that I have (mainly Pro-Ana, but I did try a few others too). Using the Nvidia Discover glasses with the Nvidia drivers gives next to no ghosting for most scenarios, even problematic ones with high contrast. The retinal rivalry is also minimized and not an issue. Of course, the colors do suffer, but it is not as bad as it initially seems. So I can totally understand why Nvidia went this route, and I probably would have done the same thing. Focus on giving a top quality 3D experience, and then up-selling people to get the full color shutter glasses. With the standard red/cyan you get better colors but at the cost of ghosting and retinal rivalry which distract from the 3D effect. So while I would probably rather use red/cyan, I would certainly recommend that a newbie to 3D use the Discover mode if they've never played a 3D game before. So this makes sense.

[2umind]

Yeah, I too understand why they did it this way, I just wish they could dull the reds and ghosting but not the rest of the colors. If I had the time I would probably upgrade to some better 3D glasses but lately I'm working a lot so =/. I did however actaully reach someone through the Tridef forums and through the information I gave them they discovered this was happening in multiple PhysX games and are making an update in the next release to fix this issue. This is why I like tridef so much, you post in their forum and the person who responds to you actually can make a difference in the development of the software.

Here's the thread...

http://www.ddd.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 7a933364a4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[2umind]

Hey, does anybody know how to translate the Dubois algorithm that Nvidia 3D anaglyph uses into the matrixes that iZ3D uses so I can add it as the custom color. The Optimized Anaglyph mode that iZ3D uses creates some weird ghosting in Spiderman: Web of Shadows, but only iZ3D can create the 3D in that game without causing graphic glitches.

This is what's in the config.xml file for iZ3D now, I think it's Green and Magenta but I want to make it the Nvidia Optimized colors. What numbers do I need to change and to what to be Red / Cyan nvidia Optimized?...

<AnaglyphOutput>
<!-- Green / Magenta custom color matrix -->
<CustomLeftMatrix m00="0" m01="0" m02="0" m10=".3333" m11=".3333" m12=".3333" m20="0" m21="0" m22="0"/>
<CustomRightMatrix m00=".6667" m01=".3333" m02="0" m10="0" m11="0" m12="0" m20="0" m21=".3333" m22=".6667"/>
</AnaglyphOutput>

NVIDIA is probably using the well known Dubois algorithm for color correction as described here : http://www.site.uottawa.ca/~edubois/anaglyph/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[2umind]

Never Mind, I figured it out, here's what it should be...


<AnaglyphOutput>
<!-- Red / Cyan Optimized color matrix -->
<CustomLeftMatrix m00="0" m01="0.7" m02="0.3" m10="0" m11="0" m12="0" m20="0" m21="0" m22="0"/>
<CustomRightMatrix m00="0" m01="0" m02="0" m10="0" m11="1" m12="0" m20="0" m21="0" m22="1"/>
</AnaglyphOutput>