Meant to be Seen

geekmaster wrote:

2EyeGuy wrote:

geekmaster wrote: If you scatter a couple dozen extra periods through that post, I might think you were a sock puppet for KBK. (Sorry KBK!).

I don't see how.

Well, KBK's posting style has sure been improving lately, so you may need to go back and compare your (humorous) post to one of KBK's older posts.

And thanks, KBK for adjusting your writing style so to minimize the "WTF" factor, so that we can better understand and appreciate what you have to say.

For the past 10 years, I've moved into consciousness descriptors, away from technical simplicities in language. IIRC, it is Einstein that said 'but simplify no more'? In consciousness/id/ego/(and more) exploration, the concepts are difficult and require flowery language and outlier components. Analogous to quaternions, or similar. It is the requirement when expressing complexities in single statements that have to be ingested whole.

Now we move to similar with this Oculus rift device. For example, HUD's will have to move to simplistic but yet multi-tiered symbologies. Multi-tiered meaning xyz components. Color, shape, motion in the symbols will indicate a complex thought or meaning, in a single 'expression'.

(I see a devilishly complex game hiding in that thought)

But there is a fine line between complex thought and obfuscation, just like there is a fine line between genius and insanity. When you stray too close to that line, sometimes it is hard for others to tell which side of that line you occupy. Unless you straddle it intentionally just to get a reactive response from your audience, that is...

Movie actors claim that it is more fun to play the part of a "bad guy", after all. Even notoriety is a form of recognition, and so notoriety and even infamy itself may be sought by some, if that is what they so desire...

Now, back on topic, whether Notch is famous or infamous depends on his actions, and the recent "photo retraction" event strays toward the divide.

Well, I just got my binocular vision. Perhaps it requires associated coherency.

Honestly KBK, you are pretty much incomprehensible to me, which could be because I'm not a native speaker, but sheesh. There are limits to how much someone can complicate their language without, just that, appearing insane.

I think deeper meaning can be communicated with simple words, concepts doesn't have to be explained in the densest format possible. If that was the case, we would just write abbreviations all the time. Did I not understand you correctly? Oh, surprise >_>

Sorry for being an asshat here, just scratching my head wondering what reason anyone could have to use words 1% of people understands. I mean, any sane reason -_-

BOLL wrote:Honestly KBK, you are pretty much incomprehensible to me, which could be because I'm not a native speaker, but sheesh. There are limits to how much someone can complicate their language without, just that, appearing insane.

I think deeper meaning can be communicated with simple words, concepts doesn't have to be explained in the densest format possible. If that was the case, we would just write abbreviations all the time. Did I not understand you correctly? Oh, surprise >_>

Sorry for being an asshat here, just scratching my head wondering what reason anyone could have to use words 1% of people understands. I mean, any sane reason -_-

Couldn't have stated this better! I honestly have no idea what KBK is saying most of the time. I showed my wife a couple of his posts (she is smarter than me, she is a chemical engineer) and even she is baffled. Not trying to be a jerk, just letting you know as an avid mtbs3d reader.

KBK wrote:For the past 10 years, I've moved into consciousness descriptors, away from technical simplicities in language.

Could you please provide us with links to a CDL (Consciousness Descriptor Language) Reference Manual or Dictionary? That we could can hopefully translate some of what you have posted for the past 10 years into a language commonly used by a large segment of the population who may read your posts (preferably one that is supported by Google Translate).

Engineers aren't created or utilized to step out of boundaries. That's why they entered that profession, it is complementary to their wiring. If they do step out of boundaries that are rigidly defined, then they can't claim to be an engineer. Engineers aren't taught to invent, as invention is no area to explore when making things for people to integrate with. Invention involves science and theory, not facts. Only engineers work with and are taught facts, for the above stated reasons.

Science knows there are no facts, only theory. Which re-opens the door which was purposely closed for engineers. When developing science, it is a process of logic formation based on questioning everything, including the existence of the questioner. This is philosophy, the mother of science. Philosophy many times is complex distillation from the muse.

This chat is truly wonderful, but when can I play Minecraft with my Rift?

KBK wrote:Engineers aren't created or utilized to step out of boundaries. That's why they entered that profession, it is complementary to their wiring. If they do step out of boundaries that are rigidly defined, then they can't claim to be an engineer. Engineers aren't taught to invent, as invention is no area to explore when making things for people to integrate with. Invention involves science and theory, not facts. Only engineers work with and are taught facts, for the above stated reasons.

Science knows there are no facts, only theory. Which re-opens the door which was purposely closed for engineers. When developing science, it is a process of logic formation based on questioning everything, including the existence of the questioner. This is philosophy, the mother of science. Philosophy many times is complex distillation from the muse.

Okay, so where did you get your Philospher's degree in Techno-Mystical Engineering?

KBK wrote:Engineers aren't created or utilized to step out of boundaries. That's why they entered that profession, it is complementary to their wiring. If they do step out of boundaries that are rigidly defined, then they can't claim to be an engineer. Engineers aren't taught to invent, as invention is no area to explore when making things for people to integrate with. Invention involves science and theory, not facts. Only engineers work with and are taught facts, for the above stated reasons.

Science knows there are no facts, only theory. Which re-opens the door which was purposely closed for engineers. When developing science, it is a process of logic formation based on questioning everything, including the existence of the questioner. This is philosophy, the mother of science. Philosophy many times is complex distillation from the muse.

I would have to assume that you've either never met an Engineer or you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. My wife is an Engineer and she comes up with simple and creative solutions to difficult and complex problems on a daily basis. I'm new to this forum so I don't know why the good folks here put up with your behavior so calmly. In my eyes you are attempting to make yourself superior to others by using deliberately obscure and complicated words.

I pronounce you a Troll.

Off-topic:

KBK wrote: Invention involves science and theory, not facts.

Theorys are nothing without facts that prove them right (or at least indicate that they may be right).
And you are over-generalizing like crazy.
Aside from that, your posting has nothing to do with anything in this thread.

This is not written to offend you.

-----------------------------------

On-topic:

Envy! But I am glad that some well known developers and studios are getting their Rifts early.
Hopefully no one outside of this board pulls a Martin F because of that.
(Which I bet is the reason for the non disclosure agreement)

Yes, I'm also hoping many, many more Dev Kits are going to engineers instead of philosophers.

Gaius Baltar attack!!!!!!

come on guys...for the intergalactic peace:
stay on topic and talk how about we're all excited for the upcoming rift!

Valez wrote:... pulls a Martin F because of that.
(Which I bet is the reason for the non disclosure agreement)

At the risk of declaring my ignorance ... what is a Martin F?

KBK, if one examines the textual paradigm of technology, one is faced with a choice: either accept the postpatriarchialist paradigm of narrative or conclude that the State is part of the dialectic of science, but only if Foucault’s analysis of the capitalist paradigm of consensus is invalid; if that is not the case, the raison d’etre of the scientist is deconstruction rather than construction. But an abundance of narratives concerning cultural discourse may be discovered. Marx promotes the use of the capitalist paradigm of consensus to challenge the status quo.

In a sense, an abundance of deconstructions concerning the textual paradigm of discourse may be found. If science holds, we have to choose between the textual paradigm of discourse and deconstructive postsemioticist theory.


The previous two paragraphs are complete nonsense and have been generated by the postmodernism generator (http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/) with a few words manually edited by me. KBK might be able to save himself some time by configuring the Dada engine (http://dev.null.org/dadaengine/) to write his undecipherable posts for him using his preference of dense prose and nonsensical jargon.

GeraldT wrote:

Valez wrote:... pulls a Martin F because of that.
(Which I bet is the reason for the non disclosure agreement)

At the risk of declaring my ignorance ... what is a Martin F?

Condemning Oculus as an evil corporation, because you got no Christmas present and you could make an inferior device for more money.
(He is a guy commenting on the Kickstarter page. Changed his name a couple of times.
I won't post his newest nickname here, but if you look, you will find him.)

ishist wrote:

KBK wrote:Engineers aren't created or utilized to step out of boundaries. That's why they entered that profession, it is complementary to their wiring. If they do step out of boundaries that are rigidly defined, then they can't claim to be an engineer. Engineers aren't taught to invent, as invention is no area to explore when making things for people to integrate with. Invention involves science and theory, not facts. Only engineers work with and are taught facts, for the above stated reasons.

Science knows there are no facts, only theory. Which re-opens the door which was purposely closed for engineers. When developing science, it is a process of logic formation based on questioning everything, including the existence of the questioner. This is philosophy, the mother of science. Philosophy many times is complex distillation from the muse.

I would have to assume that you've either never met an Engineer or you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. My wife is an Engineer and she comes up with simple and creative solutions to difficult and complex problems on a daily basis. I'm new to this forum so I don't know why the good folks here put up with your behavior so calmly. In my eyes you are attempting to make yourself superior to others by using deliberately obscure and complicated words.

I pronounce you a Troll.

I've been thinking KBK is a troll for some time. Moving forward I will ignore his posts until he can post in the same language as us "mere mortals". Sorry if I added fuel to the fire.

GeraldT wrote:

Valez wrote:... pulls a Martin F because of that.
(Which I bet is the reason for the non disclosure agreement)

At the risk of declaring my ignorance ... what is a Martin F?

Have a run through our Kickstarter comments, searching for the user SPe3... have fun. People refer to him as Martin F in the comments - that was his first user name. His comments are rather good for a laugh.

By the way, Valez - I laughed at that pretty hard. "Pulling a Martin F"... love it.

ahhh - thank you guys, I need to read more kickstarter comments

As much as I hate to post (slightly) off topic, KBK makes more sense to me then the rest of you most of the time.

That said, I readily acknowledge that I am not normally the most understandable person myself, I just think his thought process makes sense a lot of the time.

OT: I really hope there is some sort of official Minecraft support by the time I get my Rift (I think my pre-order went in sometime in October, probably early on...woah had to check that a bit, I thought I got in way later). Would be nice to get something like independent head/body movement or something.

HAH HAH! Martin F totally SCHOOLS Oculus by creating an 8" FULL HD HMD with lenses and so forth from Amazon and a magical 898954DOF motion tracker with a 10000000000000000000000000Hz refresh rate! I too am going to sell my dev kit on ebay and print my own, which I estimate will cost $2.50. I wouldn't have done this if Oculus had their sh*t together in time to load up their scammy HMD on Santa's sleigh.

Martin F bought FIVE of the early Rift Dev Kits, and he wants to sell them on eBay? Any idea how much he wants for one of them?

All right, all right, that's enough. If any of you has a problem with KBK you should take it to private messages.

Looking at SPe3 posts, I don't know how crazy it gets latter, but so far he has a point. Communication from Oculus has been less than good. The current example would be how many have been made, and if they are on the boat from China to Oculus office. I suspect that question won't be answered until the lucky first people get shipping notification.

I also think it is not good that notch and whoever else are getting kits before the pre-kickstarter guys. I hope they get something REALLY good when the time comes. (Not a free T shirt.....)

bobv5 wrote:Looking at SPe3 posts, I don't know how crazy it gets latter, but so far he has a point. Communication from Oculus has been less than good. The current example would be how many have been made, and if they are on the boat from China to Oculus office. I suspect that question won't be answered until the lucky first people get shipping notification.

I also think it is not good that notch and whoever else are getting kits before the pre-kickstarter guys. I hope they get something REALLY good when the time comes. (Not a free T shirt.....)

I disagree, people like Notch are going to help give Oculus free PR, and are also getting a head start on adding support to their projects. Notch is a proven developer with great resources to help fund development, and most importantly, name recognition. You may not like the VIP system and feel the pre-kickstarters are being slighted, but I think its unavoidable when dealing with almost any industry, and especially in a case like this with a startup. Also, I'm sure people at Epic, Valve, iD, and who knows what other large studios (and Cliffy B) also have their dev kits or will soon have them. Maybe I'm biased as I'm in the second 5000 order shipping tier, but I don't really see this as a bad thing.

But yes, I do agree with you they should get somethin' special.

bobv5 wrote:I also think it is not good that notch and whoever else are getting kits before the pre-kickstarter guys. I hope they get something REALLY good when the time comes. (Not a free T shirt.....)

They will get cool stuff, but more importantly, they will be getting a perfectly working and finished Rift rather than a pilot run units that still needs some tweaking. Also, note that Notch was a very early and very generous backer, and pledged the maximum amount of $10,000 to the Kickstarter.

"You may not like the VIP system and feel the pre-kickstarters are being slighted"

$10,000 is a lot of money, but I suspect as a percent of income it is less than the pre-kickstart guys. I have no problems with big game companys being sent early units. It just seems wrong to me, that the guys who put cash into Oculus, when it was still just PalmerTech, have been sent to wait in line with the comoners.

my 2 cents - not giving notch a pilot run unit would in no way reduce the time us "commoners" have to wait to get our hands on one, so I don't see what the point of complaining about that is

bobv5 wrote:"You may not like the VIP system and feel the pre-kickstarters are being slighted"

$10,000 is a lot of money, but I suspect as a percent of income it is less than the pre-kickstart guys. I have no problems with big game companys being sent early units. It just seems wrong to me, that the guys who put cash into Oculus, when it was still just PalmerTech, have been sent to wait in line with the comoners.

Would you really want an early release that doesn't have the polish of the version the "commoners" will be getting? I can understand the pre-kickstarter backers wanting to get their device before anyone else, but not if it's at the expense of having an inferior product.

bobv5 wrote:"You may not like the VIP system and feel the pre-kickstarters are being slighted"

$10,000 is a lot of money, but I suspect as a percent of income it is less than the pre-kickstart guys. I have no problems with big game companys being sent early units. It just seems wrong to me, that the guys who put cash into Oculus, when it was still just PalmerTech, have been sent to wait in line with the comoners.

^^
This is the why we don't get informed of all the stuff that goes on at Oculus. Somebody always complains.

Well I pledged for 2 Rifts on Kickstarter. The first one I will use for development.

The other will remain sealed in the box, ready to be ebayed in 10-15 years when it will be worth a fortune.

bobv5 wrote:"You may not like the VIP system and feel the pre-kickstarters are being slighted"

$10,000 is a lot of money, but I suspect as a percent of income it is less than the pre-kickstart guys. I have no problems with big game companys being sent early units. It just seems wrong to me, that the guys who put cash into Oculus, when it was still just PalmerTech, have been sent to wait in line with the comoners.

What is the harm in giving limited pilot run units (with a minor flaw) to anybody they want? If they aren't giving them out to pre, kickstart or post kickstart orders, they are eating those units to give everybody else the final production run dev kits; again because they weren't made to their production quality specification.

Minecraft's player base is gigantic. If they were to support it that would be a lot of future VR customers. This seems like a perfect candidate for getting a pilot run unit a little earlier than everybody else.

AussieMike wrote:my 2 cents - not giving notch a pilot run unit would in no way reduce the time us "commoners" have to wait to get our hands on one, so I don't see what the point of complaining about that is

Commoners has two m's does it? OK.

MSat wrote:Would you really want an early release that doesn't have the polish of the version the "commoners" will be getting? I can understand the pre-kickstarter backers wanting to get their device before anyone else, but not if it's at the expense of having an inferior product.

Me, personally, no. But people who paid to get a DIY early version, obviously yes, or they wouldn't have chosen the early version.

oculusfan wrote:This is the why we don't get informed of all the stuff that goes on at Oculus. Somebody always complains.

Maybe other people were told different, but my mother taught me, if somebody does something you disagree with, you talk to them about it. Are you sugesting that only positive comments are acceptable?

bobv5 wrote:

AussieMike wrote:my 2 cents - not giving notch a pilot run unit would in no way reduce the time us "commoners" have to wait to get our hands on one, so I don't see what the point of complaining about that is

Commoners has two m's does it? OK.

it sure does chief http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commoner

bobv5 wrote: Me, personally, no. But people who paid to get a DIY early version, obviously yes, or they wouldn't have chosen the early version.

Could be it's not as simple as you are thinking and the majority in fact wouldn't.

$10,000 is a lot of money, but I suspect as a percent of income it is less than the pre-kickstart guys. I have no problems with big game companys being sent early units. It just seems wrong to me, that the guys who put cash into Oculus, when it was still just PalmerTech, have been sent to wait in line with the comoners.

They're providing content (hopefully), this benefits everyone.

Ferrari sends its cars to the track and lets professional drivers test them first, even if they haven't even bought one, field testing is good.

I'm expecting that something will be done for the pre-kick start guys. Perhaps when the time comes, that theirs are the first out the door.

If i was one of those guys, I'd understand. A manufacturer cannot just 'dump product into the street' when product information IS part of the market and it's function. Part of the high technology game is holding things back until release dates. Time is money and control of release and product information -IS~ money, market position, and potentials - in this world. It's a crazy world and I can't say I care for it, but that's the way it is for now, until our individual and collective issues dissipate in some manner.

When windows 'chicago' (win 95) came out, I had the beta developer's version of it 18 months before it was released. If I had accidentally let it go any further than it already was, I'm sure that Microsoft would not have been pleased. Displeased on all levels possible to be displeased.

I was not entitled to have had that copy, it was an encrypted copy that was given to a mathematician friend of mine, and he gave it to me. I shared it with no one else as he took one heck of a risk giving it to me in the first place.

As for the gentleman who is under the impression that I insulted him, or his wife. I apologize, I missed finalizing a sentence. The part about not being an engineer, but something else. Perhaps 'Engineer Plus' ('Man Plus' by Frederick Pohl -Roger had permanent VR/AR integrated into his being) would have been a better comment. The important point is that all is theory, not facts, facts/laws are for papal bulls and those indicted in them. Facts end in circularity, which is why science is fundamentally all theory. Permanence is illusory, correction is the norm - which is applied intelligence.

It sucks to wait, but trust me, it will end with everyone being happier. Pre-Kickstarter people are not back with the commoners, they are going to be the first people with final units, and some awesome surprises to boot. Having a couple pre-release units to lend to Notch does not translate into being able to ship tens of units to all of the pre-Kickstarter backers right now.

Why do they get awesome surprises and we don't? We had to wait much longer also .... ... sorry ... I couldn't stop myself

At least convince Notch that he really needs to get Minecraft working with it to repair the damage he did