Razer Hydra at 50% off. Worth it?

[MSat]

How long is the Hydra's cable from the base to the controllers? Are there two separate cables or one that branches to each controller? I can't find this information anywhere.

It uses a Y cable, but is pretty long. For instance, with a controller in each hand, I can spread my arms apart as far as they'll go and still a little cable left over. Then the cable length from the Y junction point to the base is a little longer than the junction to the controller. Granted, extending the controller that far from the base probably won't work well at all.

[tbowren]

In anticipation for the Rift I picked up a set of Hydra controllers. I wanted to see how easy they would be to program with and how "clean" the signal is.

Overall I found them great to get up and running with for simple stuff. My goal is to create some 3d modeling tools inside a VR world so I need to have positional support for my hand and head.

You can see one of my first tests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvLUw9QBqpc

[MSat]

In anticipation for the Rift I picked up a set of Hydra controllers. I wanted to see how easy they would be to program with and how "clean" the signal is.

Overall I found them great to get up and running with for simple stuff. My goal is to create some 3d modeling tools inside a VR world so I need to have positional support for my hand and head.

You can see one of my first tests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvLUw9QBqpc

Unfortunately, I can't watch youtube videos right now, but I'm glad someone is tackling this subject. I had mentioned in another thread that I believe VR with proper hand tracking and perhaps voice integration can go a long way in making 3D modelling and world design more efficient. The Leap Motion has quite a bit of potential as not only does it have extremely high placement accuracy, but allows common objects like pens be used as a sort of input device. For instance, you can recognize an index finger gestures for actions such as pressing a virtual button or slider on a standard pen, making it act like an airbrush, geometry modification tools, or even grabbing a virtual 6DOF knob to move around in free space. I imagine calling up appropriate menus with voice commands, and then using the 3D input device to tweak and select options.

It's pretty crazy how many of these technologies have just recently become practical enough to make this all possible.

At any rate, good luck with your project! Hope to hear more about it soon!

[Mystify]

In anticipation for the Rift I picked up a set of Hydra controllers. I wanted to see how easy they would be to program with and how "clean" the signal is.

Overall I found them great to get up and running with for simple stuff. My goal is to create some 3d modeling tools inside a VR world so I need to have positional support for my hand and head.

You can see one of my first tests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvLUw9QBqpc

Unfortunately, I can't watch youtube videos right now, but I'm glad someone is tackling this subject. I had mentioned in another thread that I believe VR with proper hand tracking and perhaps voice integration can go a long way in making 3D modelling and world design more efficient. The Leap Motion has quite a bit of potential as not only does it have extremely high placement accuracy, but allows common objects like pens be used as a sort of input device. For instance, you can recognize an index finger gestures for actions such as pressing a virtual button or slider on a standard pen, making it act like an airbrush, geometry modification tools, or even grabbing a virtual 6DOF knob to move around in free space. I imagine calling up appropriate menus with voice commands, and then using the 3D input device to tweak and select options.

It's pretty crazy how many of these technologies have just recently become practical enough to make this all possible.

At any rate, good luck with your project! Hope to hear more about it soon!

I like the way you think. VR could be amazing for doing 3d modeling. It could be both a very powerful way of interacting with the model as well as a very intuitive one.

[MSat]

In anticipation for the Rift I picked up a set of Hydra controllers. I wanted to see how easy they would be to program with and how "clean" the signal is.

Overall I found them great to get up and running with for simple stuff. My goal is to create some 3d modeling tools inside a VR world so I need to have positional support for my hand and head.

You can see one of my first tests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvLUw9QBqpc

Unfortunately, I can't watch youtube videos right now, but I'm glad someone is tackling this subject. I had mentioned in another thread that I believe VR with proper hand tracking and perhaps voice integration can go a long way in making 3D modelling and world design more efficient. The Leap Motion has quite a bit of potential as not only does it have extremely high placement accuracy, but allows common objects like pens be used as a sort of input device. For instance, you can recognize an index finger gestures for actions such as pressing a virtual button or slider on a standard pen, making it act like an airbrush, geometry modification tools, or even grabbing a virtual 6DOF knob to move around in free space. I imagine calling up appropriate menus with voice commands, and then using the 3D input device to tweak and select options.

It's pretty crazy how many of these technologies have just recently become practical enough to make this all possible.

At any rate, good luck with your project! Hope to hear more about it soon!

I like the way you think. VR could be amazing for doing 3d modeling. It could be both a very powerful way of interacting with the model as well as a very intuitive one.

I imagine in the near future, doing modelling/world creation using a keyboard and mouse will be considered slow and downright archaic. Efficiency is extremely important considering the costs associated with creating modern AAA game titles, and CGI movies.

[German]

I imagine in the near future, doing modelling/world creation using a keyboard and mouse will be considered slow and downright archaic. Efficiency is extremely important considering the costs associated with creating modern AAA game titles, and CGI movies.

I'm not trying to offend but I wonder how many times this statement has been made in the past 20 years. Mouse and keyboard have been a difficult one to usurp.

[Mystify]

I imagine in the near future, doing modelling/world creation using a keyboard and mouse will be considered slow and downright archaic. Efficiency is extremely important considering the costs associated with creating modern AAA game titles, and CGI movies.

I'm not trying to offend but I wonder how many times this statement has been made in the past 20 years. Mouse and keyboard have been a difficult one to usurp.

We haven't had a feasible method of interacting with objects in a 3D space before.

And mouse+keyboard HAS been usurped for content creation before. Most artists use a tablet of some description. It is a vastly superior way of drawing compared to the mouse. This approach has the potential to be the tablet of 3d design.

[MSat]

I imagine in the near future, doing modelling/world creation using a keyboard and mouse will be considered slow and downright archaic. Efficiency is extremely important considering the costs associated with creating modern AAA game titles, and CGI movies.

I'm not trying to offend but I wonder how many times this statement has been made in the past 20 years. Mouse and keyboard have been a difficult one to usurp.

We haven't had a feasible method of interacting with objects in a 3D space before.

And mouse+keyboard HAS been usurped for content creation before. Most artists use a tablet of some description. It is a vastly superior way of drawing compared to the mouse. This approach has the potential to be the tablet of 3d design.

Yep, not to mentioned devices such as 3Dconnexion for 3D space manipulation. Despite all the 3D tools car manufacturers have at their disposal, they still like to shape them using scale clay models. Now they would be able to carve them in virtual clay, almost as naturally as they do with real clay. I'm not saying the keyboard and mouse will disappear for everything, but they're hardly an ideal tool for the tasks I mentioned. I'm not at all offended by your comment, German, but I do believe you're being quite short-sighted.

[German]

Yep, not to mentioned devices such as 3Dconnexion for 3D space manipulation. Despite all the 3D tools car manufacturers have at their disposal, they still like to shape them using scale clay models. Now they would be able to carve them in virtual clay, almost as naturally as they do with real clay. I'm not saying the keyboard and mouse will disappear for everything, but they're hardly an ideal tool for the tasks I mentioned. I'm not at all offended by your comment, German, but I do believe you're being quite short-sighted.

I don't see how you can say I'm being short-sighted based on a simple observation of the past difficulty of creating new methods of input that are better than traditional ones. I should have included tablets though because they are nearly as old as the mouse, or if you want to be pedantic, older than the mouse.

Tablets work because there is immediate tactile feedback between the artist's hand and the input. However, they required a lot of practice and above-and-beyond hand-eye coordination(looking up at a screen and drawing on a blank surface that produces no visible strokes) until the Cintiq came out with an integrated LCD screen to get 1:1 pen-to-virtual medium. There have been plenty of 3-axis tools that have been marketed to the 3D modeling and digital content segment but none of them have caught on. The best of them are still used for navigation(as you mentioned, 3Dconnexion's product), not creation.

That feedback is pretty critical imho and the more specialized devices that provide it, historically, have been difficult to sell. Remember all those haptic pen devices? We saw their successor, the Novint Falcon flop more recently. That is not to say that with newer technology and smaller, more powerful and cheaper processing, there won't be a revival in the market.

[alekki]

How long is the Hydra's cable from the base to the controllers? Are there two separate cables or one that branches to each controller? I can't find this information anywhere.

As MSat said, it's a Y cable. The cable separates at a bit over 110cm. From there to the controllers it's a bit under 90cm

[cybereality]

There is no doubt that the mouse and keyboard are ill-suited and inefficient for 3D navigation and content creation. There is a disconnect between creating something in 3D using only 2D tools. They are popular mostly because of inertia, and the fact that most 3D input devices were either not very good, or too expensive for the market. Just like the QWERTY keyboard is actually the worst, most inefficient layout for a keyboard, but sticks around simply due to lock-in and inertia.

But if there was a successor to the mouse, at least for 3D content creation, I think it would do well. There is already a niche for space-mice, though I don't know how popular they actually are. I could imagine a pen that worked in free-space (maybe the Leap would allow this) and I think that would work well. Haptic feedback would be even better, and I know some devices like this already exist (but too expensive). So there is certainly room to improve here. And I have a feeling we will see progress in this area within our lifetimes.

[MSat]

Yep, not to mentioned devices such as 3Dconnexion for 3D space manipulation. Despite all the 3D tools car manufacturers have at their disposal, they still like to shape them using scale clay models. Now they would be able to carve them in virtual clay, almost as naturally as they do with real clay. I'm not saying the keyboard and mouse will disappear for everything, but they're hardly an ideal tool for the tasks I mentioned. I'm not at all offended by your comment, German, but I do believe you're being quite short-sighted.

I don't see how you can say I'm being short-sighted based on a simple observation of the past difficulty of creating new methods of input that are better than traditional ones. I should have included tablets though because they are nearly as old as the mouse, or if you want to be pedantic, older than the mouse.

Tablets work because there is immediate tactile feedback between the artist's hand and the input. However, they required a lot of practice and above-and-beyond hand-eye coordination(looking up at a screen and drawing on a blank surface that produces no visible strokes) until the Cintiq came out with an integrated LCD screen to get 1:1 pen-to-virtual medium. There have been plenty of 3-axis tools that have been marketed to the 3D modeling and digital content segment but none of them have caught on. The best of them are still used for navigation(as you mentioned, 3Dconnexion's product), not creation.

That feedback is pretty critical imho and the more specialized devices that provide it, historically, have been difficult to sell. Remember all those haptic pen devices? We saw their successor, the Novint Falcon flop more recently. That is not to say that with newer technology and smaller, more powerful and cheaper processing, there won't be a revival in the market.

The point that you might be missing is that these 3D tools would be used in conjunction with VR, where you're working on the objects in virtual space, in many ways similar to how you would work with and manipulate objects in real life. These new content creation tools would only vaguely resemble the current ones, as they would be optimized for VR and object manipulation. Of course, 2D content such as textures might still be better suited with devices such a pen tablets, but I'm specifically talking about 3D object creation. Having to work with 3D objects in 3 separate 2D fields is a lot more cumbersome than working with them natively in 3D. Mouse and keyboards are great for many things, but 3D creation is not one of them. Every technology eventually get usurped by something new - this will be no different.

[Aabel]

I used a wacom and a 3d connexion device for years until I jumped ship from Maya to Zbrush for modeling, opting for just a cintiq in that enviroment. The 3d connexion space balls are definately awesome and intuitive, they also help prevent carpal tunnel related injuries that mice and keyboards bring about. Anyway back on topic, I do not think the razor hydra is suitable as an input device for 3d modeling unless you are going the old school rigid autodesk way of modeling and less the Zbrush freeform artistic way. No pressure sensitivity on the hydra really kills it, in it's current incarnation as a 3d modeling input. However if you could use the hydra's sixense sensor and set it up with some kind of force feedback arm like the Phantom has You would really have something there, in fact it might even be robust enough for texture painting as well, seeing as how a painting application was developed around the Phantom already.

I could seriously see such a device being wildly successful among artists provided it doesn't cost over $1,000

[Aabel]

I imagine in the near future, doing modelling/world creation using a keyboard and mouse will be considered slow and downright archaic. Efficiency is extremely important considering the costs associated with creating modern AAA game titles, and CGI movies.

It already is archaic. If you are doing 3d modeling without at least a pen tablet (even a 12 inch cintiq is better than the biggest standard tablet) you are screwing yourself.

[Modab]

FYI: There is also support for the Razer Hydra in FreePIE which means that you can map all buttons to keys and you can do mouse emulation for basic head tracking. Also for games that support 6DOF via TrackIR you can pipe the Hydra motion into those game. Gesture support can be added via a bit more advanced scripting.

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 051#p91610

Hey, I just installed the Hydra this afternoon, and I'm wondering how I could move forward with testing it using FreePIE? Reading through forum posts, it looks like you and CyberVillain added some support for it a few weeks ago (sweet!), but the only script I saw in your post referenced a proprietary trackio object. Would I assume correctly that your hl2 mod is also proprietary at this point?
I have no problem learning stuff (I'm a software developer), but I'm at the point where I don't even know what I need to learn.
My goal is to code for Unity, UDK, or some other 3d platform (like hl2 modding) to experiment with positional head tracking.

[MSat]

FYI: There is also support for the Razer Hydra in FreePIE which means that you can map all buttons to keys and you can do mouse emulation for basic head tracking. Also for games that support 6DOF via TrackIR you can pipe the Hydra motion into those game. Gesture support can be added via a bit more advanced scripting.

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 051#p91610

Hey, I just installed the Hydra this afternoon, and I'm wondering how I could move forward with testing it using FreePIE? Reading through forum posts, it looks like you and CyberVillain added some support for it a few weeks ago (sweet!), but the only script I saw in your post referenced a proprietary trackio object. Would I assume correctly that your hl2 mod is also proprietary at this point?
I have no problem learning stuff (I'm a software developer), but I'm at the point where I don't even know what I need to learn.
My goal is to code for Unity, UDK, or some other 3d platform (like hl2 modding) to experiment with positional head tracking.

Perhaps get the Hydra SDK? Does UDK or Unity allow you to make API calls outside of the engine?

[Modab]

Perhaps get the Hydra SDK? Does UDK or Unity allow you to make API calls outside of the engine?

Thanks! I think you can't use SDKs with the free version of Unity, but I will look into the UDK version.

I am still interested in the FreePIE support though.

[brantlew]

@Modab: There are very few game interfaces that support 6DOF sensor data and tracking. Games that interface with TrackIR should be compatible with the Hydra with just a simple script to implement head tracking. But for most games you will only be able implement 2DOF head tracking with the Hydra data being converted to mouse emulation. FreePIE does support the full suite of Hydra buttons and you can also encode gesture commands with the script language (Python). But if you are looking for more native 6DOF support then I am afraid you will have to do something more involved and in that case FreePIE does not add much value. You are probably better off looking into the Sixense SDK which if very straight forward to use.

[jf031]

So, I was able to get the Portal 2 MotionPack DLC for free by sending an e-mail with my Hydra's serial number to p2motionpack_(at)_sixense.com (see http://sixense.com/forum/vbulletin/forum.php near the top, in blue text for slightly more detail).

It was pretty interesting, but while I was changing the shape of objects, I wished I could look around to get a better sense of where the object was in space. That, plus the lack of depth perception, really cemented to me that the Hydra is meant for VR, not to be played on one of these (in hopefully ~10 years) outdated, immersion-killing flat surfaces not attached to head movement. On a monitor, it just comes across as a neat-o gimmick (just as stereoscopic 3D does, IMO - I look forward to stereoscopic 3D "making perfect sense" [minus accommodation {changes in focus the eye performs when looking at different depths}] with the Rift).

OFF-TOPIC (please don't respond to this except in addition to what this thread is about): I was just thinking about the scale of things in VR, by imagining a Minecraft block, and moving my hands about a meter apart. It was so surreal to think that I'll be able to see such a block in scale out in front of me with the devkit Rift (assuming Mojang will support it, which is near-100%). It will seem like it is actually there, albeit filtered through a low resolution and with "weird lighting" seemingly painted onto it.

[shent1080]

I think the hydra is an amazing tool for content creation it just falls down a little when it comes to 360 degree actions, also the mag 2 is not ideal either as it's a 1 dimensional piece of kit, we need something like a hydra, that accepts actions in full 360 degrees that can be locked into a gun peripheral.

some of the wii kit was so close but yet so far from nailing it, lets hope someone can create something that fits this gap in the market.

[MSat]

It would be nice to know where Razer/SixSense and Oculus stands in this whole VR motion tracking thing. Of course, Razer wants to sell their product to whomever, while Oculus likely has an interest in providing their own tracking solution. Yet, if they teamed up at least for a while, every party would benefit by having something ready to go immediately. As I mentioned before, since the controllers on the Razer can be detached from the back of the base, it would be possible for Razer to offer alternate controllers - for instance, they could have one typical controller with motion sensing, another one without motion sensing, and then a bare motion sensor that could be attached to an HMD. Sure, crafty people could hack it on their own, but neither Oculus, Razer, or game developers would ever officially support that. An initial partnership would be nice for all parties (including gamers) to get the ball rolling not just for full head tracking, but hand tracking too. If Oculus wanted to make sure they could transition to their own motion trackers down the road, then maybe they could pipe the Hydra through the Rift's SDK, making the particular hardware more or less invisible to software developers, and not break compatibility in the future.

It would be nice if developers got to work with head and some hand tracking with the dev kits, and not have to wait for the consumer version. Its probably unlikely that a developer would end up supporting the Hydra for use with the Rift on its own if Oculus is just planning on releasing their own tracking system anyway, but that further delays deployment of games looking to take advantage of such capabilities.

[drifter]

i wish for a team with Razer... head and hand tracking with the same base station...

And why not with the leap Motion guy (if he can really increase the range of his toy)

[Pyry]

It was pretty interesting, but while I was changing the shape of objects, I wished I could look around to get a better sense of where the object was in space. That, plus the lack of depth perception, really cemented to me that the Hydra is meant for VR

That's pretty much the impression I've gotten as well. It's interesting, if you sat down and tried to design a 'transitional' or 'compromise' VR controller for the near future, something between current dual-stick control schemes and futuristic full-body tracking solutions, you would end up basically with the hydra. Regardless of what Oculus eventually decides to do for positional head tracking, this setup (two absolute position and orientation tracked hand controllers, each with an analog stick and a ton of buttons) is currently the most practical option for VR input, and the hydra is, to date, the best implementation of the idea (Playstation move: can't have position tracking and analog stick on same hand; Wiimote: no absolute positioning; Kinect: no analog sticks or buttons, Leap: likewise).

[mscoder610]

Just bought one too, $67.99 (Amazon) isn't too bad. It should come Friday / Saturday so I should be able to play around with it pretty quickly.

[Dakor]

Just a thought: Is Kinect for PC no real Competitor for Hand Tracking?
I know there are no games supporting it but I bet you can find /write a driver thats maps movement to Axis / Buttons.
Kinect for Pc is a bit more expensive but you could use it for rough positonal tracking as well, i guess.
(I know Kinects accuracy is not very good, but you would have your hands free..)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEDRsA0WsJg

On Amazon.de it still coasts >100€ and in the german razor Shop they simply changed the $ to € thus it coasts there 99€ as well

[geekmaster]

For $50, yeah, its worth it. I'd say splurge and get the Portal 2 bundle, as that's probably the best demo of the hardware so far.

Okay, I followed your advice and bought the Portal 2 bundle after buying the Hydra without the bundle. Now I have two Hydra's. How far apart do they need to be to not interfere with each other?

[TheHolyChicken]

Does anyone know somewhere cheap to buy one in the UK? I'd certainly buy it if I could find it at the prices quoted in this thread, but I can only find a uk retailer for almost £90 (~$140 USD for you American folks), and there's no way I'm paying that much.

[MSat]

How far apart do they need to be to not interfere with each other?

Do you mean so that two people can use them? According to Razer, you can't use two devices at once.

[geekmaster]

How far apart do they need to be to not interfere with each other?

Do you mean so that two people can use them? According to Razer, you can't use two devices at once.

Well, that would depend on how far apart they are.

Can the guy in the next cubicle use one without interference? How about the guy in the next apartment (i.e. the other side of the wall)? Do we need to line our cubicle or apartment walls with magnetic shielding to not have mutual interference?

Because these use magnetic fields significantly smaller than geomagnetism, I would think there is a safe distance between them, which is the information that I was seeking.

I will state my question again, but with a slightly different and more specific choice of words:
How far apart must two Razer Hydras be to work without mutual interference?

[MSat]

Ah. I though you may have wanted to use more than two controllers at once yourself. My understanding is that it has a sensitivity out to maybe 4 feet or so. Double that distance for a safety margin and you should be ok.


From Project Holodeck:

[geekmaster]

Ah. I though you may have wanted to use more than two controllers at once yourself. My understanding is that it has a sensitivity out to maybe 4 feet or so. Double that distance for a safety margin and you should be ok.

From Project Holodeck:
...

Thanks. I want a mutually shared experience, with two HMDs and two hydras (similar to what is shown in your picture). I want both avatars to be able to see each other in VR. It would be a much more natural way to guide people into a VR experience. Imagine if Nate could wear a Rift and after getting the HMD on the other guy, he could put on his own and say "follow me", and with a Hydra controller he could point and say "look over there"...

Sharing VR space as a social experience would be much more compelling, and possibly more immersive as you fill in missing details in your mind during the social interaction.

Because I only ordered ONE Rift Dev Kit, I plan to build a DIY version using my recommended aspheric lenses (or fresnel lens stacks) with my Nexus 7 and its internal IMU. Splashtop seems to work okay, at least for the guide. Of course, the guest would get the "good" (genuine/low-latency) Rift, for the best introductory experience. "Just okay" is good enough for the host. But two Hydras would be needed.

[mscoder610]

Just got mine a little while ago. Very cool so far, although I can tell there'll definitely be a learning curve / adjustment period.

As mentioned upthread, I didn't bother with the CD that came with the product, or Razer's site. I just went to the Sixense forum and grabbed the latest MotionCreator beta.

Running around space maps in Quake III using the "Akimbo" mode is fun, and I mostly got used to the controls in a couple of minutes. Looking forward to getting the Portal 2 DLC key so I can try that out too.

[Pyry]

One thing to look out for, if you want the portal dlc key, you have to send them a specifically formatted email, because the process is apparently automated. I sent them one human readable email first, and never got a response, but then I saw in their forums that you have to send a specific email, and after sending that got a key almost immediately.

Recipient: p2motionpack@sixense.com
Subject: P2 MotionPack DLC Request
Body:
Here is my serial number:
[your serial number from the bottom of the hydra base]

Regarding the control schemes, my feeling is that something like the dual-stick configuration might be the best, where you use the analog sticks on the hydra to move your virtual body around, the 3d position sensing to move your virtual arms, and the rift to move your head/view.

[mscoder610]

I think it's just that they don't really have anyone monitoring that email over the weekend. I just got my Portal 2 DLC key with a differently formatted email (I submitted the request on Saturday).

[MrGreen]

I think it's just that they don't really have anyone monitoring that email over the weekend. I just got my Portal 2 DLC key with a differently formatted email (I submitted the request on Saturday).

Same here!

Can't wait to try it with proper support. I wasn't impressed with the mouse emulation stuff, to say the least.

[mscoder610]

I've heard the same from multiple people (and in Amazon reviews, etc). I tried it in Left 4 Dead 2 and Quake III and the accuracy was about what I'd expect. What issues did you have with the mouse emulation?

I do think it would be hard to adjust to for games where you have to aim very accurately and quickly, but I'm not sure that's a Hydra-specific issue.

[MrGreen]

What issues did you have with the mouse emulation?

My issue is that there is absolutely no reason to pick this over a mouse. A button to simulate the "lift" of a mouse? Really? I know there's a mode that doesn't use it but it still felt pretty awkward.

I'm not a fan of the Move/Wii-mote either. I've played though entire games this way and I'd pick a gamepad over those any day of the week.

Once we can detach the view from the aiming it will be an entirely different story, though.

[martinP]

Probably mentioned many times elsewhere but everyone buying Hydra should be prepared to sacrifice some HW (or turn it off temporarily). In my case it is a Eizo S2243W. See attached image. In the first half of the image the display is turned off and in the second half it is turned on. The oscillation of the wand in the later case is unbearable. Surprisingly it does not depend on brightness.

[MSat]

Probably mentioned many times elsewhere but everyone buying Hydra should be prepared to sacrifice some HW (or turn it off temporarily). In my case it is a Eizo S2243W. See attached image. In the first half of the image the display is turned off and in the second half it is turned on. The oscillation of the wand in the later case is unbearable. Surprisingly it does not depend on brightness.

Cybereality had mentioned a similar issue. My guess is that the power supply isn't shielded towards the front of the monitor.