Palmer's Secret Rift....

[KBK]

OLED printing will make most of the problems go away, with regard to requiring massive factories for producing the one single product design.

In that case, I'd expect the panels to be initially a bit more expensive for each individual unit, but to be available, in a few different sizes. That there will be a list of potential sizes available, and that those sizes will really, more than anything, be a combination of the differing bits of hardware that can address a pixel, and not a limitation of the scaling capacities of the OLED printing hardware. That an OLED will be possible at any given pixel matrix, but be limited in sizes due to the connectivity hardware being pre-made or already in existence.

[Syke408]

Quick question, why couldn't we use GPS to implement positional tracking?

[MSat]

Quick question, why couldn't we use GPS to implement positional tracking?

Not indoors, nor at the required resolution.

[NegativeCamber]

Quick question, why couldn't we use GPS to implement positional tracking?

GPS resolution is 10 metres... And directional information only works if you are moving. And as said it doesn't work indoors.

[MemeBox]

I have produced a position tracking solution with mm tracking accuracy over the volume of a good sized room.
It uses any number of webcams more than 3.
You can quickly add new cameras to improve accuracy.
I have released the source code.
It's rough and ready and requires more work, but the concept is proven.
I'm not sure why people aren't more interested in it.

There is no complex hardware, just 3 or more webcams and an infrared led.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEx1nNkEW_o

[t0pquark]

I'm not sure why people aren't more interested in it.

Nice video!

One suggestion would be to make a video that explicitly shows your tech being used to track your head and/or body while controlling either the Tuscany or UDK demo environments. This could help to, more directly, illustrate the performance of your system and how it compares to other systems that have almost all used those same demo environments.

[ss248]

atricle that Japan Display and tablet manufacturers want to build in Retina displays into tablets already 2014.

Good news from Japan Display
"Japan Display Inc, one of two Japanese producers of Apple Inc iPhone screens, wants to boost sales by up to 60 percent by winning more business from smaller makers of phones and tablets to offset lackluster orders from its bigger clients"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/ ... CZ20130415

[remosito]

I would be happy to see a 2560x1600 OLED panel with 170-180 horizontal FOV around 2016.

I'm sure he's experimenting to give us the best product.

By 2016 anything below 4k would be a major disappointment in my book!

[superbike81]

I would be happy to see a 2560x1600 OLED panel with 170-180 horizontal FOV around 2016.

I'm sure he's experimenting to give us the best product.

By 2016 anything below 4k would be a major disappointment in my book!

Why? Think about it.

1080p consumer TV's started coming out around 2005, and we just started getting 1080p phones and tablets in 2012. It may or may not take another 7 years to get a 4k 5" screen.

[colocolo]

I would be happy to see a 2560x1600 OLED panel with 170-180 horizontal FOV around 2016.

I'm sure he's experimenting to give us the best product.

By 2016 anything below 4k would be a major disappointment in my book!

Why? Think about it.

1080p consumer TV's started coming out around 2005, and we just started getting 1080p phones and tablets in 2012. It may or may not take another 7 years to get a 4k 5" screen.

actually this year cheap 4K are already selling. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications ... =S874-5004
And Hisense (biggest chinese manufacturer; 13 Billion revenues) will sell a 50 inch version, too for 2000$.

[KBK]

Sony's latest SXRD screen is for projection use.

It is 0.78" diagonally.

It is 8.8 megapixels, 4096x2160 resolution. This projector was just released this January. $24k US is the retail price, costs are obviously much less.

This is not a thing that is needed for HMD use, at this time, as there is little to no method of addressing such a panel in a 'portable design' manner. There is also no source material. Sony had to send along a dedicated PC Tower that was set up to play out 2 different 3 minute clips on this projector, in order to show the full resolution.

The stated requirement for a full 2 hour film at that resolution of 8.8 megapixels (x3, three colors, three of these panels in the Projector), is 51 blu-ray discs. This is about 40gx51, or two terabytes of data, for one film.

Each of these panels cannot run at the speed required for stereo display beyond 60 hz, at this time.

~~~~~~~~~~

LCD panels in the 1080P range or better are going to to be available in the required size range and quality range, for at least 60hz HMD use, by the middle or 3Q f this year, 2013. This is already a 'done deal' with the nexus 7 tablet being updated to a 1080p 16:10 display by this june/july, as a projected release date.

4k will be available, but there will be little to nothing in the portable range of hardware... that can drive it. Being able to scale 1080p over that resolution in a small form factor of scaling hardware would be nice, but it is not expected to exist. it might by 2016, but there is, at this time, no drive to begin the design process of such a bit of hardware, so it is unlikely.

By that time, it MAY be possible to slave the 4k scaling hardware from a 4k TV... to a higher resolution (>1080P panel) HMD but the odds of such a scaling engine being small enough to fit in an HMD and low powered enough are pretty darned low. We're talking a complex board, with multiple processors, with high heat and high power requirements. Any given high rez 4k scaling board that does end up existing, will be designed with no concern of size or mass. It would very likely have axillary functions that are unwanted, extreme latency for frame processing and ...custom interfaces.

oh yes, the 4k Seiki panels at 50" from tiger direct. They don't have anything new, in PPI or pixel density. the technology to make them is almost old, with regard to how fast technology is moving. The hardware to drive those panels is the big deal.

We are hardware and data creation/storage/flow/management restricted, not PPI or resolution limited.

[NegativeCamber]

57 arcseconds / pixel is regarded as "retina" quality.

90 degree horizontal FOV = 324000 arcseconds = 5684 pixels.

Hmmm, one can only hope one day we get that.

[remosito]

I would be happy to see a 2560x1600 OLED panel with 170-180 horizontal FOV around 2016.

I'm sure he's experimenting to give us the best product.

By 2016 anything below 4k would be a major disappointment in my book!

Why? Think about it.

1080p consumer TV's started coming out around 2005, and we just started getting 1080p phones and tablets in 2012. It may or may not take another 7 years to get a 4k 5" screen.

I did think about it

Just from a different angle.

Current highest density screens in production are 440dpi. On 5 inches that's 2200 pixels, on 7 inches it is 3000 pixels.
Highest experimental/prototype screens I have found are 650dpi. On 5 inches that's 3250 pixels and on 7 it's 4550 pixels diagonally. 4k is 4400 and a few.

So 4k is a possible with current tech already on 7inch screens. It's not too farfetched to assume that 2016 production tech is at least on par with 2012 prototype tech. Most likely it will surpass it.

But the biggest difference between 2016 and 2013/4 is OR style VR will have taken off biiig time. I think none of us here have much doubt about it. What does that change? Oculus won't need to go dumpster diving for screens anymore. They will have the volume to have screens custom made to their own specs.
The other thing that will change with massive volumes is Oculus can have 2 sizes made without significantly upping per unit cost due to low volumes like now. One cheaper, lighter smaller res 5 inch version and a more expensive heavier higher res 7 inch version. They could even offer Carl Zeiss optics (or in other ways more complex optics) upgraded versions of each or just the bigger one with higher FoV. By 2016 they will ship millions of units

Do the math on the dev kit screen. That's an abysmal 170sth dpi. 2008 called and wants it's screen tech back
Not Oculus fault or anything. Just the result of todays screen production economic reality.

So yes. Anything below 4k in 2016 would be a major disappointment in my book

[squibbfire]

I bet hes got a flexible oled...from samsung....a curved oculus...

I wonder how that would work?

It would mess up the 3d ...im sure you could compensate..

[MemeBox]

@t0pquark

Thanks, for the input.
As soon as I get my oculus, I'm going to get a video out as soon as I can
Fun times

[remosito]

I have produced a position tracking solution with mm tracking accuracy over the volume of a good sized room.
It uses any number of webcams more than 3.
You can quickly add new cameras to improve accuracy.
I have released the source code.
It's rough and ready and requires more work, but the concept is proven.
I'm not sure why people aren't more interested in it.

There is no complex hardware, just 3 or more webcams and an infrared led.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEx1nNkEW_o

really cool concept!

can It track multiple lights at the same time?

Jumpsuit dotted with IR LEDs for fullbody mocap?

Just kidding. But what about a couble on my hands and elbows? or glued to a plastic toy gun?

[MemeBox]

really cool concept!

can It track multiple lights at the same time?

Jumpsuit dotted with IR LEDs for fullbody mocap?

Just kidding. But what about a couble on my hands and elbows? or glued to a plastic toy gun?

I was working on getting multiple point tracking working before I parked the project until I receive my rift.
I was getting multiple lights tracked, but getting tracking for points which were close to each other was fiddly.
For mocap I think I'm going to go with the kinect approach, so that my system would track the really important bits like head and a gun.
The kinect(s) would fill in the details, allowing you to see your body in the space.

As soon as my rift arrives I'm going to get a video up on youtube, showing the positional tracking.
Then the next most cool thing for me to do is get some gun tracking involved, I want to shoot zombies!

[geekmaster]

Quick question, why couldn't we use GPS to implement positional tracking?

GPS resolution is 10 metres... And directional information only works if you are moving. And as said it doesn't work indoors.

Centimeter accurate GPS for $500:
http://hackaday.com/2013/08/05/centimet ... s-for-500/
If their claims are correct, this is 1,000x more accurate than 10 meters.

It looks like you need two of them ($1,000) to get that resolution though.

[brantlew]

Quick question, why couldn't we use GPS to implement positional tracking?

GPS resolution is 10 metres... And directional information only works if you are moving. And as said it doesn't work indoors.

Centimeter accurate GPS for $500:
http://hackaday.com/2013/08/05/centimet ... s-for-500/
If their claims are correct, this is 1,000x more accurate than 10 meters.

It looks like you need two of them ($1,000) to get that resolution though.

Wow, that looks really interesting. A lot of potential for free-roaming.

[Ryuuken24]

I would be happy to see a 2560x1600 OLED panel with 170-180 horizontal FOV around 2016.

I'm sure he's experimenting to give us the best product.

Yeah, and like most of best products, people can't afford it, even at a later date. I wonder if people in America still remember the current financial crisis, which will drive the prices WAY up.

[Mattijs]

Quick question, why couldn't we use GPS to implement positional tracking?

GPS resolution is 10 metres... And directional information only works if you are moving. And as said it doesn't work indoors.

Centimeter accurate GPS for $500:
http://hackaday.com/2013/08/05/centimet ... s-for-500/
If their claims are correct, this is 1,000x more accurate than 10 meters.

It looks like you need two of them ($1,000) to get that resolution though.

Saw a TED talk about using the phase information instead of just the usual convolution filter stream locking to obtain 1mm accurate gps coordinates.
They talked about a future where even with the current systems you'd be able to track down your keys or anything else you lost as they saw those super accurate systems being widespread in the near future, attached to about anything.

I actually don't get why it can't just be the usual mems sensors for what we have now and maybe a high speed 200+ hz IR camera for the positional tracking with a pattern on the front of the hmd...I know that would be bad for omni stuff etc...but i don't really see them doing anything else for the first rift.
I actually find it strange how opentrack for example does not have a version where you glue a QR code to the front of the current devkit and use that for positional.

[quietboy]

of course palmer and the team have super rift which hidden under lock and key. they compete with big companies.

[JustJoshin]

I bet he has 12000 rifts at home in his flat, refusing to send them out. Just rolling around in the big pile and trying them all on.

This ^^

I'm sure they have some mad 3d printers at oculus for their prototyping and you just KNOW Palmer calls downstairs for them to print out some new shiz for his latest and greatest inventions....then he takes them home and adds them to his rift pile and rolls around in them

[Ryuuken24]

Why would anyone roll on hard plastic, with sharp edges, that hurts! Why would Palmer use his own company to get new gear, it's like a dealer getting high on his own product!?

[KBK]

Since I was constantly re building and re-executing high end audio equipment for my own use, and henceforth found I was living at the leading edge of things (which developed as a position, over time) I decided that I may a well get into it as a way to make a living or make something from it. same for high end 'extreme' projection video. may as well make a go at it.

I was interested in trying to stay ethical and not bring destruction to people or the planet. Getting into technology areas that debase the planet is easy, staying away from such things is the hard part. Killing the world, and people, for money and power -is the easy way out. Recognizing what one is doing in the immediate and extended sense (realizing cascaded effects in one's actions) is the hard part for many people, as we instinctively desire (emotions and 'wants') and tend to not think things all the way through to 'final results from one's actions'.

My point is that yes, IMO Palmer is partially playing the game of making HMD's for himself and making HMD's for sale to the public. The hobby and desire becomes the income. The dealer/chemist shoots up his own stuff. Why not, may as well...as it keeps the costs down and the goods close.

[colocolo]

Since I was constantly re building and re-executing high end audio equipment for my own use, and henceforth found I was living at the leading edge of things (which developed as a position, over time) I decided that I may a well get into it as a way to make a living or make something from it. same for high end 'extreme' projection video. may as well make a go at it.

I was interested in trying to stay ethical and not bring destruction to people or the planet. Getting into technology areas that debase the planet is easy, staying away from such things is the hard part. Killing the world, and people, for money and power -is the easy way out. Recognizing what one is doing in the immediate and extended sense (realizing cascaded effects in one's actions) is the hard part for many people, as we instinctively desire (emotions and 'wants') and tend to not think things all the way through to 'final results from one's actions'.

My point is that yes, IMO Palmer is partially playing the game of making HMD's for himself and making HMD's for sale to the public. The hobby and desire becomes the income. The dealer/chemist shoots up his own stuff. Why not, may as well...as it keeps the costs down and the goods close.

One 'want' could anihilate million 'wants' meant in a form of virtual richness people would receive.
Just a thought, but normally people are easy to be cheated.
What i want to say: Better the 'wants' stay in VR like the 'wants' from books and films also stay where they are.

[geekmaster]

... I was interested in trying to stay ethical and not bring destruction to people or the planet. ... Killing the world, and people, for money and power -is the easy way out. ...

I for one am exstatic that you were able to keep your megalomaniacal planet-wide genocidal power under self-control so far, and I pray that you can continue to not unleash your awesome destructive power on the rest of us or our humble planet.

[KBK]

Sometimes Geek humor is easy to recognize.

You know what I mean, Geek. Being nasty is the easy stuff, the dream and realm of morons and a-holes.

[geekmaster]

Sometimes Geek humor is easy to recognize.

You know what I mean, Geek. Being nasty is the easy stuff, the dream and realm of morons and a-holes.

Being nice and creative in a good way is easy too, if you were brought up that way.

Some people need to fight their basic instincts, to be good. For others, being good is a way of life, and becomes their basic instinct.

[Likay]

It requires more effort and resources from people to live up to their own ethical rules. Doing so feels good but it has a price. A lot of people are greedy thus taking the easy way out. Cheating, lying, stealing, killing... Should anyone blame them or stay happy in the own paradise? Love my little blue world.
And yes. Some upbrings a**holes, some upbrings decent people. Some a**holes turns into decent people, some decent into a**holes while some born a**holes never changed. Also there is mother Theresa.

[android78]

...Also there is mother Theresa.

Which category do you place her?

Back on topic...
I'm hoping that he has something like http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=18335 and it is prototype for the consumer rift.

[Likay]

...Also there is mother Theresa.

Which category do you place her?

Placing her into a category is not necessary.

[Kamus]

1080p consumer TV's started coming out around 2005, and we just started getting 1080p phones and tablets in 2012. It may or may not take another 7 years to get a 4k 5" screen.

No... In fact it's probably possible right now. That said, the problem is demand for such a product. The smartphone market wouldn't benefit a whole lot from 4k at 5".

[KBK]

Technology is actually marching much faster than your ability to accept it or learn to understand it.

If you center on one area, for example, perfecting marbles for playing marbles, things will naturally begin to slow after a certain point. In the same way, trying to perfect LCD panel technology past certain limits, is where the problem comes to the fore, regarding mindset and mental projection.

One tends to think that technology is marching slow, and it is. But only with regard to you not looking at other technologies besides LCD, and the big one: Time to market.

The biggest problem of all, is now that the time to take research, produced hardware to mass manufacture, mass manufacture, then integrate with other components, get it finished and working, package, ship across oceans, distribute, sell and then people with their natural speed of adoption....all of these things are the parts that are slowing technology down.

(Personal 3d printer solutions, anyone? it's a decent start..... however, too physical. Basic Physical existence is not even half the battle)

Technology is marching at a rate that is probably 2 to 5 times faster (depending on the area of physics and science/engineering) than it can be brought to you and how quickly society (as a slow moving herd that concerns itself with how it emotionally moves and deals with others) can accept and integrate.

This rate is only increasing.

Most major manufacturers are about 1 (a minimum) to 3 generations (comfortable) ahead in their prototyping work, compared to what YOU get to see and hear about. This is something they MUST do, in order to survive in the marketplace.

Then we get to government and corporate black ops, as a combined pair, which have not suffered from restrictions in their research or motions for the past 70+ years (after WWII). They want to know and do EVERYTHING, no matter how insane and marginal it may seem. It's critical to do so, for them. They suffer from no psychological limitations in their directions or energies spent. Those groups are really far gone compared to what you see around you. Many, many..many technological steps ahead. in some areas, a good thousand years, even compared to the crazy pace you see around you.

The problem is not this above paragraph is false, but that the reader has a hard time dealing with the concepts being introduced. It is an emotional issue not a logic issue. Of course, emotions will produce arguments to counter what I just said.

Of course, if one has not gone through the steps required to get to understanding what I have just said, the lack of clarity in the steps of reaching those points in logic will produce an emotionally colored and near automatic rejection. The information required to get to the logic position that I speak of, is available on the net in a multitude of different places, and it is suggest that one put in the effort of looking, if they disagree.

And you can always have someone come in and disagree with me, as that helps you remain comfortable. Controlled, even.

Due to humans being social creatures who actually form logic and mental thought formation parameters based on EMOTIONS... they are easy to sway with arguments that fit their mental projections and deepest concerns that are not clearly written in their conscious awareness. Even then, if it was, they would push it away. Happens every day, each of us do it, all the time. Ie, I'm procrastinating right now, I should not be posting, I should be working. So, in essence, don't make the mistake of thinking that your conscious thought is somehow in charge of your directions. You have to work at it a lot harder and deeper than that.

This takes us to the subject of herd mentality, what we see around us, identification with that space as a point in emotional comforts (which creates mental thought origins), vs psyops and data control, control of what people get based on what they expect and then controlling the formation of those expectations.

For example, a simple article like this:

http://sustainablepulse.com/2013/07/13/ ... gef0T-PQZn

Those sort of elements are also aware and attached to this website, as well, as this website deals with a important area where humanity is going... which produces a doorway for insertion of systemic (low level, beneath conscious awareness) control of said emergent trends.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Then we get to the whole Buddhist/esoteric thing, which might be termed a 'sixth wall', one where the consciousness doing the thinking finally comes to the understanding that it too is just a pastel drawing in a moment of flow on a backdrop of something greater. Which takes one to a need (if they should choose to move in that direction) to peel it away so perspective/distance can be found. Like the man said, 'seek detachment'. (which should never be mistaken for low empathy/sociopathy)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_wall

[whoisonline]

I'm sure he has one thats miles ahead of the rest,

[colocolo]

man, i'm so yearning for Bridage 3 and the Matrix.
This was rendered with Octane, but Brigade 3 will be almost indistinguishable from Octane according to Samuel Lapere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZfvZ7BZ3xI