hands-on with Valve's Team Fortress 2 'VR Mode'

[Mystify]

This thread is starting to resemble a CSI episode )

Enhance the image

[Libre]

They may use the camera for their AR research.

Right! The webcam looks small enough to clip onto an HMD, and look at the positional markers all over the walls. I wonder what kind of latency that webcam creates. Could they have some sort of fusion with the accelerometer and gyro data to get positional head tracking?

[Zoide]

It looks exactly like my Logitech C910 webcam, except the hinge is totally folded down:

[Fredz]

Very true - but then level designs have to scale down to accommodate the slower speed or else you're going to spend a great amount of time just traveling from one place to another. So the scope of your level might be just to clear one small building instead of an entire multi-city-block area.

That's the reason why I'm more interested in trying close quarters combat realistic military FPS (like TCE: Elite and TCE: CQB) than sci-fi FPS. Realistic movement and weapon handling, iron sight aiming system (ISIS) and free-view.

"True Combat is an action packed realism mod where big jumps, fancy strafing and fantasy weapons are no where to be seen. Expect hard fought team-based objective battles where staying alive is only the first challenge you will face."

Site : http://www.truecombatelite.com/index.ph ... truecombat

[rupy]

From watching the video it becomes clear to me that what you need is fixed aim with both mouse and head (aim+view-box is retarded and only there to enable quick and precise movement because keys are left, right, up and down), but moving has to be a analogue stick like console. So that leaves me to try and hook my-wii mote and connect that to TF2 via valves razor support somehow I guess... surprised they haven figured that out, or maybe they think its "cheating"...

So basically wii-mote left controller in left hand for movement, mouse in right hand for quick+precise rotation!

[brantlew]

From watching the video it becomes clear to me that what you need is fixed aim with both mouse and head (aim+view-box is retarded and only there to enable quick and precise movement because keys are left, right, up and down), but moving has to be a analogue stick like console. So that leaves me to try and hook my-wii mote and connect that to TF2 via valves razor support somehow I guess... surprised they haven figured that out, or maybe they think its "cheating"...

So basically wii-mote left controller in left hand for movement, mouse in right hand for quick+precise rotation!

Basic Wiimote doesn't have analog stick. Are you saying that the Wiimote yaw should be used for direction? If not, then how is the Wiimote direction pad different than WASD?

[GeraldT]

From watching the video it becomes clear to me that what you need is fixed aim with both mouse and head (aim+view-box is retarded and only there to enable quick and precise movement because keys are left, right, up and down), but moving has to be a analogue stick like console. So that leaves me to try and hook my-wii mote and connect that to TF2 via valves razor support somehow I guess... surprised they haven figured that out, or maybe they think its "cheating"...

So basically wii-mote left controller in left hand for movement, mouse in right hand for quick+precise rotation!

Basic Wiimote doesn't have analog stick. Are you saying that the Wiimote yaw should be used for direction? If not, then how is the Wiimote direction pad different than WASD?

don't split hairs ... he obivously means that piece that is attached that has the analog stick

[misterhek]

Apparently, the free TF2 hat we get is actually a Rift, as seen in this picture:



I've played hundred of hours of TF2; but not recently. Can't wait for the Rift to drag me back in.

[3Tree]

Apparently, the free TF2 hat we get is actually a Rift, as seen in this picture:



I've played hundred of hours of TF2; but not recently. Can't wait for the Rift to drag me back in.

Figures.

[ishist]

I am so gluing Googly eyes to my Rift.

[Libertine]

Turning with your head. Not good.

I think games with "turn with your head" will do for the VR movement what 2D -> 3D conversions have done for the 3D movement. Not.............good...

[tcboy88]

dun forget the logitech c920 looks almost the same as c910
also the to be launched c930 looks same too

[Okta]

Turning with your head. Not good.

I think games with "turn with your head" will do for the VR movement what 2D -> 3D conversions have done for the 3D movement. Not.............good...

Eh? Thats what its all about, why do you think it has a head tracker

[myoung]

What is that other thing taped to the desk on the main picture of the item?

Yeah what is that?
A microphone?
A webcam?
A head tracker?

[krylonshadow]

From watching the video it becomes clear to me that what you need is fixed aim with both mouse and head (aim+view-box is retarded and only there to enable quick and precise movement because keys are left, right, up and down), but moving has to be a analogue stick like console. So that leaves me to try and hook my-wii mote and connect that to TF2 via valves razor support somehow I guess... surprised they haven figured that out, or maybe they think its "cheating"...

So basically wii-mote left controller in left hand for movement, mouse in right hand for quick+precise rotation!

I started experimenting with something like this using the Razer Hydra. A huge issue is the way they integrated the Hydra into TF2. I can't make the joystick control the view at all at the moment, but my goal is to let you use the motion control to control only the gun's aiming, and the joystick to shift the view. The former can be achieved by increasing the dead zone radius significantly. I am going to post on the Steam forums and try to bring this to Valve's attention and hopefully they will consider adjusting it to allow the joystick to control the view. Currently, both using the Hydra or using the Rift, the controls use "Freeaim" where closer to the center, you have finer mouselook-like control, and as you move towards the edges, the acceleration increases allowing you to turn. This is NOT a good way to control this type of game. The main issue is the inability to have fine-control whenever you want it and also the unexpectedness of having your entire view shift when your mouse/controller gets towards the edge (I can see this being especially annoying in VR). While using the joystick to control the overall view seems immersion-breaking, it lets you anticipate exactly when your view will shift. Having all three independent (the direction your head is facing, the direction your gun is facing, and the direction your character itself is facing) is IMO the only proper way to control your character in VR.

For those of you who have a Hydra and want to play around with using the motion to only control the gun, here's the console command to use:
sixense_aim_freeaim_dead_zone_radius 100

I'm currently trying to trick the game into letting me seamlessly transition between moving just the gun around and moving the entire view.
One not so desirable but decently usable solution is to map a button that changes the dead zone radius while you have it pressed down. Currently I achieve with this console command:
sixense_bind "right" "button_press" "1" "sixense_aim_freeaim_dead_zone_radius 1" "sixense_aim_freeaim_dead_zone_radius 100"
What this does is, if you don't have the button pressed, you can control the aiming reticule in your fixed view, and when you hold the button down, you can shift the view by aiming closer towards the edge of the screen.

[drgroove101]

I can't believe Valve choose this game as their first leap into VR. Especially when they have such a perfect game as half-life 2 which barely breaks immersion and has such a good pacing of action and exploration/puzzle solving.

I just played TF2 and it's so fast paced, If I played this with the rift I think after 20 minutes my neck would be so sore from frantically looking around, and moving so fast would make me sick. I honestly think this game may turn people off of the Rift and possibly dismiss is as another failed VR attempt (ok that's a little harsh, but I could see some people having a bad experience with it, and just never want to try it again). And Hawken is no better!

The articles I've read are saying Valve is using TF2 as a barometer to gauge how gamer's will react and respond to VR, and then Valve will decide where to go from there. They picked the worst game out of their library for this. Any other of their games would have been a far better choice for this purpose. They claim TF2 is a good choice because it has millions of people that play it everyday, and the users are use to updates. What poor criteria for choosing a game to test a new VR device going out to thousands of people. You would think the content and pacing of the game should be first and foremost for a VR test. If they announced Rift support for any other game I bet excitement would have been doubled, not to mention they would of received a nice little boost in sales for the game. Yea I'm bitter I know... I'm just.... uggh! So disappointed.

Also I believe there is going to be massive word of mouth when the Rift drops; tons of yoututbe videos, amateur reviews, vloggers and gamers that people listen to and respect are going to give their opinions on the Rift that will shape how the public perceives it with a force far beyond this forum. If right out of the gate the only 2 games people play are motion sickness inducing twitch multiplayer only shooters, the first impressions are not going to be good. The Rift is going to have to make up for some lackluster and bad press. I really want the Rift to succeed and I'm genuinely concerned.

I know GDC is right around the corner with many unknown info and announcements for the Rift, and my above opinions may be a little premature (I really hope so). But man, please please please let them announce at least 1 single player game we can play on day 1 or shortly thereafter!

So on a side not I'm really hoping Nathan Andrews HL2 mod turns out good with proper Rift head tracking and warping to counter balance these interloping multiplayer shooters!

[mrklaw]

Almost certainly they chose Tf2 because the code is actively in development so there is the least cost and effort involved in adapting it for the rift. To update portal 2 they'd probably have to dust down an archive and set things up again, all for an experiment.

If this goes well, I'm sure valve will take on board feedback and look to update portal 2 and half life 2.

You're not force to play this competitively btw, you could just walk around and have a look at the environment. Being familiar to lots of people might be useful there too.

[jaybug]

So much blasphemy in here.

ON TOPIC:

(...)it seems like they have been using the devkits on these, but in that one, he mentions the screen-door effect:

" However, a couple drawbacks are also apparent. First, it’s very low-res. Without much concentration, I can spot the individual square pixels that make up the image, and trace the pitch-black street grid between them. "

I know that effect is lessened from the 5.6 screen. I'm obviously not worried - it's one of those givens that further versions will have a higher resolution, etc. It's just interesting that it is still commented on.

(...)

In the picture he's clearly using the 5.6 inch prototype, not the dev kit.

The article states he was using the Dev Kit for the demo.

[Endothermic]

Turning with your head. Not good.

I think games with "turn with your head" will do for the VR movement what 2D -> 3D conversions have done for the 3D movement. Not.............good...

Eh? Thats what its all about, why do you think it has a head tracker

There is a distincion between "turning" with your head and "looking" with your head.

I'd say what he means is how the orientation your character is facing changes when you turn your head.

So if you look to the left and press forward you'll move in that direction, now if you look to the right and press forward you'll then be moving in that direction instead.

He wants the character (as it should be) always moving in the same direction no matter where you "look" with your head and to only change it's orientation if you use a key or other controller to do it.

[Okta]

Something else i got from the video. With the amount of R+D Valve say they are expending on VR, they could very well soon be Oculus biggest competition. They say they are "partnered" with Oculus for the HMD, but it sounds like they have a lot of hardware guys on the team. As usual, just speculation, as we haven't been told sh1t.

[NegativeCamber]

Turning with your head. Not good.

I think games with "turn with your head" will do for the VR movement what 2D -> 3D conversions have done for the 3D movement. Not.............good...

Well, we'll see I guess. There may be times when body with head movement is beneficial, it's certainly simpler.

[troffmo5]

Nice that Valve already have access to the SDK (or have more technical information) but the other developers (kickstart backers) must wait

[mahler]

Nice that Valve already have access to the SDK (or have more technical information) but the other developers (kickstart backers) must wait

Valve was involved before the Kickstarter though. Their endorsement helped a lot. And they seem to have actually delivered something too. If companies like Id Software, Valve, Unity and Epic are already supporting this before release, this will only create a bigger market. That's good for us all.

[troffmo5]

I don't say that it is bad that they support it!
I was just disappointed that some companies already have informations that backer developer still not have and are not allowed to have. Perhaps they signed a sort of NDA AFAIK.
Good for us all will be when everyone will be able to contribute to the success of Oculus.
I hope soon

[rupy]

From watching the video it becomes clear to me that what you need is fixed aim with both mouse and head (aim+view-box is retarded and only there to enable quick and precise movement because keys are left, right, up and down), but moving has to be a analogue stick like console. So that leaves me to try and hook my-wii mote and connect that to TF2 via valves razor support somehow I guess... surprised they haven figured that out, or maybe they think its "cheating"...

So basically wii-mote left controller in left hand for movement, mouse in right hand for quick+precise rotation!

I started experimenting with something like this using the Razer Hydra. A huge issue is the way they integrated the Hydra into TF2. I can't make the joystick control the view at all at the moment, but my goal is to let you use the motion control to control only the gun's aiming, and the joystick to shift the view. The former can be achieved by increasing the dead zone radius significantly. I am going to post on the Steam forums and try to bring this to Valve's attention and hopefully they will consider adjusting it to allow the joystick to control the view. Currently, both using the Hydra or using the Rift, the controls use "Freeaim" where closer to the center, you have finer mouselook-like control, and as you move towards the edges, the acceleration increases allowing you to turn. This is NOT a good way to control this type of game. The main issue is the inability to have fine-control whenever you want it and also the unexpectedness of having your entire view shift when your mouse/controller gets towards the edge (I can see this being especially annoying in VR). While using the joystick to control the overall view seems immersion-breaking, it lets you anticipate exactly when your view will shift. Having all three independent (the direction your head is facing, the direction your gun is facing, and the direction your character itself is facing) is IMO the only proper way to control your character in VR.

For those of you who have a Hydra and want to play around with using the motion to only control the gun, here's the console command to use:
sixense_aim_freeaim_dead_zone_radius 100

I'm currently trying to trick the game into letting me seamlessly transition between moving just the gun around and moving the entire view.
One not so desirable but decently usable solution is to map a button that changes the dead zone radius while you have it pressed down. Currently I achieve with this console command:
sixense_bind "right" "button_press" "1" "sixense_aim_freeaim_dead_zone_radius 1" "sixense_aim_freeaim_dead_zone_radius 100"
What this does is, if you don't have the button pressed, you can control the aiming reticule in your fixed view, and when you hold the button down, you can shift the view by aiming closer towards the edge of the screen.

Do you have a HMD? Changing the view with the joystick *only* is not an option, unless you have a bucket between your legs. The crosshair has to be pinned in the middle of your view, the problem is your neck doesn't do 360 well so unfortunately we need some way to adjust the view... with eye tracking you would make the crosshair follow your eyes and you would pan-rotate by closing your eyes and rotating your head. But since we don't have that yet...

I agree that you could replace the "closing eyes" with a button press!

I think that TF2 *must* make you motion sick, there's no way you can shoot someone behind you at the speed of a mousedrag without throwing up.

I'm just trying to solve the whole aim/view box crap, because that's simply retarded.

Ok, going to try GlovePIE with wiimote and mouse after my batteries charge...

[TheHolyChicken]

I was just disappointed that some companies already have informations that backer developer still not have and are not allowed to have. Perhaps they signed a sort of NDA AFAIK.

A few select 'special' devs have been working with Oculus for months to help improve the SDK, hardware and tutorials etc. They are helping to shape the developer experience so that what arrives into your hands is more polished.

To test a game you get a select group of players to try it out and give you feedback before releasing to the public.
To test a development kit you get a select group of developers to try it out and give you feedback before releasing to the devs.

Oculus won't be withholding the SDK just for fun - we don't have it yet because it's not yet ready.

[brantlew]

I'm not convinced there will be a satisfactory solution to the FPS control problem using unidirectional control schemes - especially for twitch games that require near unconscious control and immediate response times. Every combination of controllers and body motion seems to come with some awkward and immersion breaking compromises. Personally I consider VR "broken" in FPS until there is a solution for true 360 unimpeded turning.

[rupy]

Yes, but somethings are worse than others, and this box solution is just unplayable!

So getting into GlovePIE and wiimote I realized I have misplaced my bluetooth dongle, then I also realized TF2 probably is really hard to configure to receive any data from GlovePIE... and GlovePIE site is hacked etc.etc.etc

So basically can you use your mouse at the same time as you use the razor hydra?

We need left hand analogue joystick for movement badly!

What we really need is for Joe Ludwig to realize this, if he hasn't already, and incorporate an option for fixed crosshair and analogue movement "in there" as Carmack would say!

Or maybe having fixed crosshair is going to make you throw up / break your neck then we just need to have free cursor allover and use middle mouse button to pan option...

Or maybe you are right and it's all crap... we'll see!

[Flim]

Have any of you all played Arma with track Ir? Works great... Move your head as normal , then aim with mouse or controller.

Now, game developers will need to design speed or motion comparable to real life, not this running at 300 miles an hour!

[krylonshadow]

Do you have a HMD? Changing the view with the joystick *only* is not an option, unless you have a bucket between your legs. The crosshair has to be pinned in the middle of your view, the problem is your neck doesn't do 360 well so unfortunately we need some way to adjust the view... with eye tracking you would make the crosshair follow your eyes and you would pan-rotate by closing your eyes and rotating your head. But since we don't have that yet...

I agree that you could replace the "closing eyes" with a button press!

I think that TF2 *must* make you motion sick, there's no way you can shoot someone behind you at the speed of a mousedrag without throwing up.

I'm just trying to solve the whole aim/view box crap, because that's simply retarded.

Ok, going to try GlovePIE with wiimote and mouse after my batteries charge...

In my scenario, the crosshair is completely independent of both your head and your character's body. The crosshair for the gun's aim would be direct in which direction you're aiming at with the Hydra. If you wanted to, you could turn your head to the left and shoot to the right. However, neither of those actions would change the direction that your character's body is facing, so if you were to face "forward" again, and aim "forward" again, you'd be back to your initial state. The joystick would be used to turn your character's body--and yes, if doing this fast to turn around, it won't be easy to do any kind of twitch movement, but I don't think it'll be as nauseating as letting the mouse turn the character's body once you get towards the edges of the "screen".

Yes, but somethings are worse than others, and this box solution is just unplayable!

So getting into GlovePIE and wiimote I realized I have misplaced my bluetooth dongle, then I also realized TF2 probably is really hard to configure to receive any data from GlovePIE... and GlovePIE site is hacked etc.etc.etc

So basically can you use your mouse at the same time as you use the razor hydra?

We need left hand analogue joystick for movement badly!

What we really need is for Joe Ludwig to realize this if he hasn't already and incorporate an option for fixed crosshair and analogue movement "in there" as Carmack would say!

Or maybe having fixed crosshair is going to make you throw up / break your neck then we just need to have free cursor allover and use middle mouse button to pan option...

Or maybe you are right and it's all crap... we'll see!

You can NOT use your mouse or keyboard while the Hydra is active (although certain keyboard keys are bound and then mapped to the Hydra, those are still usable, but not WASD). This is my current "issue" with separating the cursor and the view into different controls.
The last thing you mentioned, have free cursor all over and use something to pan, that is exactly what my goal is. To use the joystick to allow you to pan.

As an alternative for small amounts of turning, you could also have a button that makes your character walk in the direction you are facing. Let's say you are making you character walk straight and you look 15 degrees to the right with your head and decide you want to walk that way. This button would slowly turn your character, the entire view would shift to the left so that what you originally saw by looking 15 degrees to the right, you'd now see by looking straight ahead.

[Baristan6]

Ok, going to try GlovePIE with wiimote and mouse after my batteries charge...

I tried this a few days ago with TrackIR/FreePIE in Skyrim. Getting a Wiimote to work with TF2 shouldn't be difficult if you emulate a mouse. Finding your Bluetooth dongle might be the hardest part.

[CyberVillain]

Ok, going to try GlovePIE with wiimote and mouse after my batteries charge...

I tried this a few days ago with TrackIR/FreePIE in Skyrim. Getting a Wiimote to work with TF2 shouldn't be difficult if you emulate a mouse. Finding your Bluetooth dongle might be the hardest part.

We are working hard on integrating full Wiimote support in FreePIE, stay tuned.

[rupy]

@krylonshadow: ok, I gotcha. Difficult to visualize how this will play out, I agree with @brantlew though ever since the wii came out (and then later the gyro addon) it has been a very disappointing experience from a reality standpoint.

@Baristan6 The problem is I need TF2 to swallow analogue movement instead of A, W, S, D keys... so I need to jack in to their hydra code and I don't even know if that's open... the problem is not the wii part it's the valve part...

Edit: BTW you have probably seen this but: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy373DpKGAE

Now that I think about it a good old usb controller with 2 analog sticks is all we need. TF2 is compatible with those no? Or say XBOX 360 controller... still need to find my bluetooth dongle...

[Machinima]

I still don't really understand why Valve went with TF2 over HL2 for trialling VR. A slower paced single player experience is clearly going to be a superior VR experience than a very fast paced twitch shooter.

I suppose it may have been precisely for that reason, too find out what the limitations and problems are by tackling the more difficult genre first.

[unsilentwill]

Nah. Valve doesn't work like most companies anymore. They're totally bottom up, they throw a bunch of experiments at their fanbase and see how much money they make, how long people play, what they do. It's not coincidence after making TF2 "Free to Play" they started making Dota 2. They openly admit they've redone so many things about the original TF2, so many game modes and items and play styles and the economy thing. TF2 is just the company lab rat (which is less than funny because of the themes of Portal and Portal 2 but that's another topic).

They chose it because it's heavily monitored, completely free, and has a wide range of playstyles built into the core gameplay. Also hats.

[rupy]

Ok, http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Oculu ... User_Guide has vr_moveaim_mode which is what I was looking for, of course the guys at valve have thought of everything! So xbox 360 contoller for PC it is (no need for bluetooth as it comes with it's own dongle or usb cable)!

[Libertine]

Turning with your head. Not good.

I think games with "turn with your head" will do for the VR movement what 2D -> 3D conversions have done for the 3D movement. Not.............good...

Eh? Thats what its all about, why do you think it has a head tracker

I meant where you turn your head to turn your whole character and/or aim the gun with your head.

from this: "The standard setup has look-dictating movement direction, meaning that innovative uses of Rift, like moving forward while shooting sideways (by looking sideways with your head, as shooting is mapped to the mouse), won't work."

I read the larger paragraph several times because i couldn't believe they'd implement it like that... If they want VR to fail, or to be met with mixed reactions, imo, just keep heading in that direction. ...Sorry to sound so strong, but thats how i feel.

[Direlight]

I read the larger paragraph several times because i couldn't believe they'd implement it like that... If they want VR to fail, or to be met with mixed reactions, imo, just keep heading in that direction. ...Sorry to sound so strong, but thats how i feel.

Valve wants mixed reactions because VR mode is experimental. Notice the multiple input modes and settings.

[Bretspot]

Time to dust off the HAMMER editor again and just load existing cool worlds and levels that people have created for the half-life engine and use a slower moving character like the heavy and play by your self. No problemo.

[Mystify]

One thing to keep in mind is that the VR mode is aimed at, well, people with dev kits. Hence, they don't need a polished experience for it any more than the rift needs to be consumer ready, and they can experiment just as much. Just from reading their wiki it is clear that it is not ready for the average gamer. Let them try out whatever crazy things they want right now- by the time the consumer rift is ready, they should have a much better handle on it.