g-force simulation for VR driving concept

[Namielus]

Sorry for double posting, but I want to respond to the problem of rotating before ending up in a position.
When you have reached top speed, it should slowly start moving toward "break simulation" because thats the only likely event that can come after reaching stable speed.
Same the other way around. So the rotations should be gradual, and not just before an event happens. That can atleast partially fix it.

And for car games, the rotation doesnt really have to be that extreme, its enough that you are tipped forward and backards, staying idle at the middle. Even tho tipped straight down obviously creates more realism.



Behold the 9.2 foot wheel, also known as the abomination.
Note that in my design the outside/roll wheel has to be even bigger.

[android78]

Will you need a full 360degree rotation along both axis? I think that it could be made a lot smaller if you only have half frame, but more complex structure.

[Namielus]

I would very much like to keep 360 on both, especially for flying and just because It would be the coolest thing to build.

For 360 it does not need to be a full circle but it obviously needs the space. I can imagine a more complex design would also solve that but I dont think I would ever be able to build something even more complex.

For driving sims only, there are lots of simpler designs that do alot more axis, so that would probably be a better option.

[MSat]

Sorry for double posting, but I want to respond to the problem of rotating before ending up in a position.
When you have reached top speed, it should slowly start moving toward "break simulation" because thats the only likely event that can come after reaching stable speed.
Same the other way around. So the rotations should be gradual, and not just before an event happens. That can atleast partially fix it.
.

The problem is that in a racing simulation, you might be accelerating hard towards the next braking point, so you couldn't transition slowly. Having 180 degree rotation would enable you to get up to 1g in pitch and roll, but you're right, it's not completely necessary. You could make the platform sort of like a swing set, with the pivot point just slightly above the tallest expected user. You also don't need a lot of the cage - just enough to mount a seat, steering wheel, and footwell.

A large-ish machine might be ok for a VRcade, though

[Namielus]

For the quick accelerations and breaking you do the pivot tipping fast back and forth and have to live with the fact that some of the pivoting is counter productive?

When you reach max speeds it will assume position for potentially hard breaking, same from very slow or stand still speed.

I dont know, none of the motion sims and/or g-force sims ive seen has been perfect for both flight and driving.

Btw, I also wonder how much g-force you would feel if it was _actually_ spinning you forward really fast while accelerating.
At least breaking would feel real then because the body would have momentum, and also make you very dissy haha.

Anyway, I think this obviously has its pros and cons but it is a fairly good cross between motion simulation for flight, and g-force simulation for driving (or a mix of both)

[MSat]

I agree that your design is definitely the most practical, while still being awesome. You're right about there not being a reasonable platform that is perfectly suited to both flight, and driving sims.

>> I also wonder how much g-force you would feel if it was _actually_ spinning you forward really fast while accelerating.

If it was spinning you fast, I think the fluid in your inner ear would be orientated in the opposite direction of the center of rotation due to centrifugal forces, instead of back in the case of forward acceleration. The other issue would be blood rushing to your head and legs.

[android78]

...
Btw, I also wonder how much g-force you would feel if it was _actually_ spinning you forward really fast while accelerating.
...

I think this can be calculated.
1g = 9.8m/s^2
if you are going to move the head roughly 50cm back when accelerating, and let's say it's going to take .5s to get there from upright, also assuming constant acceleration for half the time and constant deceleration for the second half it will be:
Accelerate for 0.25s at 8m/s^2 then decelerate for 0.25s at 8m/s^2
so you would feel almost 1g of force at your head. (obviously less in your middle and none at the pivot point)
Let me know if my calculations are wrong.

[android78]

BTW... I'm not trying to rubbish your design. It's one of the most versatile I've seen and look forward to pics and your experience if you go ahead with the build. I just hope that you manage to do a better job of the implementation then a ride I went on on the weekend. It was hydraulic and huge, and the ride was a taped V8 supercar drive round the Bathurst track (probably the most popular V8 supercar track in Aus), but it seemed that they just tilted the thing to match the tilt of the car, not to simulate the actual acceleration. For instance, you have a left hand corner, which has a camber to the inside, it would tilt the platform to the left, when actually it should have tilted right to simulate the centrifugal forces from going round the corner.

[Namielus]

I don't mind critisism, this is just another one of my rinky dink basement ideas.
Im not really trying to defend my design, im just trying to come up with some solutions.

I got as far as designing the slip ring for wiring to the inner cage/ pitch-cage, since any wires going to that would be twisted by the roll cage. I just cant see myself doing all the controller programming and interfacing to games, so this has been collecting dust like many of my other projects.


I might build a small scale one tho, or, I can maybe try to export this to a program with better physics?
If there is a realistic ragdoll in the simulation, there would be a better idea of the feasibility.

[MSat]

Hey, any motion tracking platform is cooler than none at all! Even the passive ones that had been posted are cool - and work with any game

[mayaman]

Guys I have a pretty elaborate driving simulation setup with full Dbox motion and soon a GS4 Gforce seat. The Dbox and my giant wrap around screen is ultra immersive, once I add the G seat it's going through the roof. The G seat simulates sustained G forces.

Once racing games are optimized for the rift I may just quit me job and just be a racing bun. :p

Here is my setup and it's getting better, upgrading it at the current time, you'll see, muahahaha.

http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=229676

It's the same rig in Cybers first post. Let me know if you have any questions.

And for the record you don't need all that much motion. What you need is good fast motion, tactile zone rumble, and pressure. All these are covered by my rig in spades. Your brain does the rest. After a mere few minutes you're completely immersed and even brace for impact when you crash.

[Namielus]

A platform with rising actuators in all 4 corners could be used in conjunction with a 360roll on 2 axis to move it up and down and give more axis of motion.

How many degrees can the dbox platform tip you? I mean in terms of angle not degrees of freedom.

[mayaman]

The dbox platform can go up and down three inches very rapidly, and when I say rapid I mean VIOLENT. When I first got the rig I put everything to its top setting, going into the hill at Laguna Seca and I almost tipped my entire rig over, if I hadn't put my arm out! The length of travel isn't important I found out, it's the fidelity, speed, and a little tidbit about the Dbox that nobody seems to know, TACTILE. I think maximum angle is 12 degree. It simulates yaw via tactile and elaborate movement between the four actuators. Your brain does the rest real quick, trust me.

The Dbox produces not just great motion but thu serous and I mean really powerful tactile feedback. The low frequencies rumble where powerful enough to rattle picture frames in rooms adjacent to my sim room. It reproduces subtle engine vibration, impacts, rumble strips, bullet impacts, you name it, these little wonders of technology can reproduce it

I looked into other motion simulators but I'm so happy with the Dbox because it does so many things well. Flying, driving, FPS.

The last piece to my puzzle is the GS4 seat. With that and the Dbox I'll have one of the best commercial or non commercial simulators in the USA. I've had a couple friends on this thing who raced in the Speed channel series back in the late 90s and they were amazed how quickly their brain told them they were in a moving car. You can't really get that from videos, you have to experience it. Also, my 110 degree screen doesn't hurt either, no bezels.

Check out the GS4 seat at ultraforcesims.com.

[cybereality]

Looks like an awesome setup, dude!

[Namielus]

I've used curved screens before, but never 3 projectors, looks cool indeed.
I have to say tho, that using the Rift is more tempting for me for display,
being able to look around in the cockpit with full freedom etc.

What is the price of the d-box setup?

[cybereality]

To be honest, a setup like that is probably better than what we're going to get with the Rift. At least for racing games.

[Namielus]

how do you figure that?

[mayaman]

The Dbox I have is 13K with the rig. I can get discounts if you're interested.

The driving in this rig is as real as its going to get for a consumer level rig. I've got it setup with clubsport controls, hydro brake, gated and sequential shifters, the motion, wrap around screen, and soon the GS4 seat. My only next evolution is the special rear projection screen I'm working on with a company in Massachusetts. It's going to use 6 1080p projectors and cover a true 270 degrees with 100 degree verticle.

The rift will be my defacto FPS device, but for racing, and I'm talking real simulation racing like iracing or even Simbin titles you need to see your controls, button box, etc. my current screen might not look like much in a picture but let me tell you when you're racing it's really immersive. My rear projection screen even more so.

It would be difficult to use my controls with the rift on. But for arcade racing, trust me I'll be using the rift. All I have to worry about there is my gas, brake, and steering wheel.

[cybereality]

how do you figure that?

Well I guess technically I haven't used the setup, its just looks a lot more impressive to me for racing titles. Especially with 3 projectors, possibly up to 1080P each, you are going to have way more visual fidelity than with the Rift's 640x800 per eye screen. In terms of pure visual immersion, the Rift will probably still win, but I was talking about the whole experience (with the racing seat and everything). But for other games, like shooters, I think the Rift will probably be a better choice.

[bobv5]

Nice, but, you could race a real car for 13k.

[Namielus]

Cyberality, there is no doubt its more impressive. Still, I think the future Rift with proper head tracking I think his seat, his wheel, his motion platform + the rift will take the edge.

Mayaman, don't take my opinions as bashing your setup. I think its crazy cool.
I see your point when it comes to controls. I use the g25 and do also drive racing sims, but I don't use additional buttons other than whats on the wheel/shifter except for a handbrake.

My opinion is only related to the display, and while I can see domes/wrap around screens are also highly immersive when it's dark, I still believe the Rift with proper tracking will take it to next level.
Even if your 3 projectors have good 3D-shutter glasses, there is still no motion parralax etc.

I am open to more input to why this is not the case, but remember, there is always the question of personal preference.

Anyway, as long as we dont have perfect head tracking, your display setup is still the best.

Hmd's I have tried with it+trackir, for my use I did not have any trouble finding the shifter etc, but I guess for ultimate hmd immersion the cockpit+wheel/shifter etc has to be synced/aligned with your real world gear. Or you could have a leap motion tracking your hands and have virtual
panels/switches inside the cockpit maybe? If you could see your virtual hands 1:1 with your own in the game that would be the ultimate experience for me, with the motion system you have or similar.

I guess that's still a bit into the future, and at this point your display setup is probably the best you can get.

PS: That tactile feedback seat you linked to seems really interesting.

[mayaman]

Nice, but, you could race a real car for 13k.

Sorry but this is a pretty regular and pretty misinformed comment. Do you have any idea what it costs to track a car? Let me put it to you this way, just the Cup suspension on my Porsche was almost 3K. Then you get into tires, fuel, safety equipment, engine upkeep, track time, trailer, on and on and on and on.

Secondly, in a "real" car, you can't take the risks you can in a simulation car. You're limited by your fear not to die. Lol

Third, in simulation racing you can drive any car on earth, on any track on earth, any time, weather, etc.

Cyber, for racing, this would crush the rift, hands down. The motion, tactile, and the brutal force feedback from the controls coupled with the large expansive seamless screen make it really fun. With the new larger rear projection screen it will be better.

If there were a way I could use the rift, and still be able to use my controls and adjust fuel, brake bias, etc I'd definitely use it. But it cuts you off from the outside world making those adjustments impossible. Only way it would work is if you had a kinect and used virtual hands and adjusted fuel and brakes and everything else in your virtual car. :O

Now that I would love, because coupled with the rest of the rig there would be no difference between real and virtual.

[Namielus]

Mayaman have you seen the Leap Motion? It creates a really precise point cloud of your hands. Only problem is that the wheel sizes and shifter position of different cars vary alot, so for the wheel to be really synced you would either have to move things around for each cockpit or have one standard cockpit.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxIBXFvsGj4 this type of headtracking + leap motion + oculus rift is what I imagine as the ultimate.

[mayaman]

Mayaman have you seen the Leap Motion? It creates a really precise point cloud of your hands. Only problem is that the wheel sizes and shifter position of different cars vary alot, so for the wheel to be really synced you would either have to move things around for each cockpit or have one standard cockpit.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxIBXFvsGj4 this type of headtracking + leap motion + oculus rift is what I imagine as the ultimate.

No offense taken buddy

I've spent alot of time and money tweaking and experimenting with different things for sim racing. I'm like the Palmer of sim racing

I just get tired of the silly comments like drive a real car. I have two sports cars, but driving them hard is nary impossible and to be honest not as much fun.

I agree, a rift with proper head tracking and high resolution would be best for sure. And seeing my virtual hands would be AWESOME! Only thing like you said for certain cars the controls would be different but not so different that it couldn't be done.

I think the thing people don't realize is how much your own brain plays a part in all of this. Before I even got the wrap around screen just the tactile, motion, and thunderous surround sound drew me in, my brain did the rest. With the rift, we have a device that will accentuate all those other goodies we've been playing with for years.

IMO the rift is the most exciting gaming development EVER. Yes ever. I worked in the video game industry back in the early 90s and got to experience VR early on. Saw some really cool stuff that burned its affect into my brain. I've been searching for that ever since. It's why I've built my simulation rig, it's why I buy every HMD that comes out, I've been searching for that feeling from 20 years ago. And it's almost here, for real, we're almost there. I'm 44 years old and I feel like a kid before Xmas.

Spread the word about the rift people, we can't let this fail! I can't wait another twenty years.

And wow LEAP looks like Kinect on steroids wrapped in bacon.

[bobv5]

"I just get tired of the silly comments like drive a real car. I have two sports cars, but driving them hard is nary impossible and to be honest not as much fun."

I meant no offence, but I don't think it was a silly comment. Probably you will think this is also a silly comment, but perhaps you should buy a slower car that you CAN drive hard? Put aside the competitive part and just have fun driving?

"Do you have any idea what it costs to track a car? Let me put it to you this way, just the Cup suspension on my Porsche was almost 3K. Then you get into tires, fuel, safety equipment, engine upkeep, track time, trailer, on and on and on and on. "

I have a rough idea. True, you couldn't race a Porsche for 13k. But you could race some other car. Grass track racing was big where I grew up, because people could afford to do it.

"Secondly, in a "real" car, you can't take the risks you can in a simulation car. You're limited by your fear not to die. Lol"

True. Like it or not, racing can be dangerous. Never raced a car, but done some amature motorcycle road racing, and I know that a sim could never be the same without "get it right or bleed"

"Third, in simulation racing you can drive any ca on earth, on any track on earth, any time, weather, etc."

True. Completly true. I have nothing to say about that one. I actually think just crusing arround in some simulated car, without having to race, might be good.

[MSat]

Guys I have a pretty elaborate driving simulation setup with full Dbox motion and soon a GS4 Gforce seat. The Dbox and my giant wrap around screen is ultra immersive, once I add the G seat it's going through the roof. The G seat simulates sustained G forces.

Once racing games are optimized for the rift I may just quit me job and just be a racing bun. :p

Here is my setup and it's getting better, upgrading it at the current time, you'll see, muahahaha.

http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=229676

It's the same rig in Cybers first post. Let me know if you have any questions.

And for the record you don't need all that much motion. What you need is good fast motion, tactile zone rumble, and pressure. All these are covered by my rig in spades. Your brain does the rest. After a mere few minutes you're completely immersed and even brace for impact when you crash.

That setup is sick! The whole thing! The steering wheels, the pedals, the handbrake(!), switchgear. I nice AR HMD would be awesome. That rig is too rich for my blood, unfortunately . The amount of tactile feedback from that thing seems amazing, though. Would love to try it out.

[mayaman]

Buddy (bobv5) no offense but you're so off it's not even funny. Virtual racing online isn't just fun, it's competitive. There are thousands upon thousands of virtual racers with very elaborate rigs. It's not just the driving, it's the competition, which frankly you don't get in real life on the streets.

Also, I can race every day on my rig. When I was much younger, you'd be lucky to afford twice a year for track day. Not to mention weather.

Lastly, ther is the challenge of building something that mimics real life so closely that you step back and smile. Can't put a aprice on that.

Anyway, stay cool

[Namielus]

I know the feeling, when you dedicate so much time, effort and money to make something optimal and enjoyable for yourself and others - people reducing it to a wisecrack comment like that is frustrating.
Bobv5 did not seem to mean anything by it, but by god when you hear a comment enough times it becomes so tiresome.

I assume it simply seems like too much money to some people, but if you can defend it to yourself, you don't need to defend it to anyone else. I have wiped out on motorbikes, and I could not agree more about the comfort of being safe no matter what mistakes you make.

A few other benefits to virtual setups, you can let anyone try it without worrying about it you can jump into your sim any time you feel like it and not have to drive out to a racing track and do all the preparations etc.

I get the same when I tell people about my noise-proofed, floating wall/ceiling/floor in my home cinema, and how I
find it awesome that I can blast off the subwoofers etc without bothering my tenants. All the planning, work and money I put into etc.
They reduce it down to; That's a waste, why not just use headphones?
Or even, why not just buy a ticket at a real theatre like regular people?

The absolutely biggest difference between wrap around screens and something like the Rift is the deep motion parallax you get with a good wide fov HMD.

The question still remains how you will track the hmd without interference from the motion platform. In other words avoid the bumps and shakes to be translated into head movement. So far I can only think of trackir type of tracker that stays relative to the platform and tracks your head. In that area, your screen setup has the obvious edge.
Here is a demonstration of Leap Motion for anyone who has not seen it. If you look at that point cloud hand, you can see how well your hands can be tracked with existing technology.
Its even cheap!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYgsAMKLu7s

[mayaman]

Namielus, to be honest, most people are dip$hits. Sheep to the slaughter.

[MSat]

The question still remains how you will track the hmd without interference from the motion platform. In other words avoid the bumps and shakes to be translated into head movement. So far I can only think of trackir type of tracker that stays relative to the platform and tracks your head. In that area, your screen setup has the obvious edge.
Here is a demonstration of Leap Motion for anyone who has not seen it. If you look at that point cloud hand, you can see how well your hands can be tracked with existing technology.
Its even cheap!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYgsAMKLu7s

Wouldn't you actually want to track motions from bumps? That's assuming you have low latency, accurate tracking. Optical is probably the way to go.

[Namielus]

Msat, its complicated for me to answer that because of the language barrier, and I might be wrong;

If the bump is sort of 1:1 to the in game motion, then maybe, I guess the tracking could be relative to the entire space around you. But then again maybe not.
If you have absolute tracking, and the car in game hits a bump, the platform will bump you, to simulate the entire car moving. Your hmd will interpret that as only your head moving up and down, and move your head accordingly inside the cockpit.
So in addition to the car bumping, the head tracking will think you are bobbing your head up and down.

If the tracking is done relative to the platform, you still track the natural headshake you get from different motions,
but not the interference of the platform itself.

[bobv5]

"Buddy (bobv5) no offense but you're so off it's not even funny. Virtual racing online isn't just fun, it's competitive. There are thousands upon thousands of virtual racers with very elaborate rigs. It's not just the driving, it's the competition, which frankly you don't get in real life on the streets. "

We obviously have different tastes, but I do not think either one of us is "off".

"Also, I can race every day on my rig. When I was much younger, you'd be lucky to afford twice a year for track day. Not to mention weather. "

Again, different tastes. You want to do better than other people, I want to do better than myself, beating other people is a happy accident.

"Lastly, ther is the challenge of building something that mimics real life so closely that you step back and smile. Can't put a aprice on that. "

Of course. It is always nice to look at something awesome, and say "HA HA, I made that!" I do think your rig is awesome by the way, but as others had already said that it seemed redundant to repeat it.

"Anyway, stay cool"

Always.

[Namielus]

Honestly, in that discussion I think everything has been said and is kinda off topic now.
This thread is about people who want realistic motion/g-force simulators,
and its up to every individual how much money that is worth. End of story.

[mayaman]

Check out the GS4 seat, Pats an awesome guy.

[PalmerTech]

Even as someone who is obviously biased towards HMDs, I have to say that a proper cockpit with a wraparound screen that lets you see your hands on physical hardware is definitely better than the Rift, and might always be better than any HMD. Something about that real hardware, and the below:

The question still remains how you will track the hmd without interference from the motion platform. In other words avoid the bumps and shakes to be translated into head movement. So far I can only think of trackir type of tracker that stays relative to the platform and tracks your head. In that area, your screen setup has the obvious edge.
Here is a demonstration of Leap Motion for anyone who has not seen it. If you look at that point cloud hand, you can see how well your hands can be tracked with existing technology.
Its even cheap!

People have tried mounting IMUs to the motion platform and cancelling out the movement on the headset side, but you really do end up needing a TrackIR like setup. There is a problem, though: The sways you get from a motion platform do not match the sways you get in real life! Because the simulator is actually moving in space, there will always be discrepancies. Unless, of course, you are moving the platform in a way that puts your head at the center of rotation.

[mayaman]

Both really great insights. I for one will report on how the Rift feels with an advanced driving motion simulator when a racing or flying title is available. Palmer, please please please send one of these to slightly mad studios and SimBin so they can start developement now with their racing titles.

Also, I don't see my huge projection screens or the Rift canceling one or the other out. Each have their place and function. I for one plan to enjoy both.

One other interesting thing about the way I have my screens set up, you'll notice when looking through the helmet cam that my hands are almost a 1:1 match for the in game car. This is very important for immersion.

There is another advantage to the rift I'm going to post a thread about as I don't think anybody has touched on it.

[fader]

Hey guys,

Thought I'd jump in on the conversation, my interest in the Rift is mostly for SIM racing (of course I'd love to try other games as well).

Thats an awesome setup mayaman.. especially with the addition of the GS4! I had the opportunity to try a GS4 last week, and it is awesome for the sustained g-forces/pressure.. I had always thought though with some additional motion to give your head/arms/legs some forces this would be ultimate, and the fact the Dbox has vertical movement (no fixed pivot point) I think its very important. Just a suggestion, if you dont have a harness already, it is a great addition to promote the forces.. especially in conjunction with your dbox as you could anchor the harness to the floor (with a spring to dampen), so that when you brake, the belts will pull tight, and on acceleration they will 'loosen'. Even without the tensioning on the setup I tried, the harness really added to the roll forces and overall immersion.

I had been wondering how the movement from a motion rig would affect the head tracking of a HMD, and its good to see some discussion here on it. I had figured a TrackIR that was mounted on the rig would be the solution, but as Palmer mentioned there is potential issues with that as well.

I have a 24inch triple screen setup currently, but I've just never felt that immersed to be honest... so I'm really hopeful the rift can be my next step, as the cost to setup 3x projectors like you have, albeit awesome, is pretty astronomical compared a Rift.

Really interested to hear your impressions of the Rift with your setup, and also how the GS4 goes in conjunction with the dbox!

[mayaman]

Thanks Fader, I can't wait as well. Hopefully titles like Dirt 3/NFS shift/Project cars/rFactor will be made compatible. And as for the harness I'm with ya, I run a sparco 5 point.

[Namielus]

Mayaman, I imagine you are with me in hoping cybereality will get the actual cockpit working in dirt3, as I understand so far he only has it working outside the car.

[mayaman]

Let me put it this way, if a driving game doesn't offer a convincing cockpit view, I don't even bother purchasing it. I gave up outside camera racers in the mid 90s. Hopefully he can make it happen.